EPTTL Mafia Idea Factory - Page 48
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Rels
France13467 Posts
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43268 Posts
On November 21 2015 04:32 Rels wrote: No I mean, everybody didn't shut up just because it might be the best strategy :p and the game was super entertaining Yeah i didn't mean it can't be entertaining to people, i was talking about myself.  When i play mafia (or almost whatever game) i play to win -- which makes me think about the best possible strategy and execute it. For example in all roled games in mafia, i don't play them since i find it boring the best strategy is always to massclaim at the start of the game unless there is a mechanic that punishes it (like soup etc.). That's why don't play those games, or if i do, i almost always claim and argue for massclaim -- and get frustrated because people won't do that... But mmm.. sure, if people find the game fun why not host it. I wasn't arguing about that. | ||
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sicklucker
Canada16987 Posts
On November 21 2015 04:34 Rels wrote: But yeah, that's why I was saying even 9 players might be too easy for scum. Mafiascum wki recommends 6 players we have enough town sided games ahum | ||
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sicklucker
Canada16987 Posts
On November 18 2015 17:31 Rels wrote: yo folks I discoverd this setup on mafia scum and it seems super interesting in addition to leading to a short game: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Assassin_in_the_Palace 1 Assassin 1 King X Guards (X=4 is believed to be most balanced) The guards knows the identity of the king. So it's 5v1. Every 24 hours, someone is lynched. No night phase. Any time he wants, even after his lynch, the assassin can kill someone. If he kills the king (or if the king is lynched), he wins immediately; if he kills a guard, the king / guards win immediately. Anyone played that before ? Is it balanced / interesting ? Tempting to host something like that to try it. we played this on voice i was da king ! | ||
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Rels
France13467 Posts
On November 21 2015 09:40 sicklucker wrote: we played this on voice i was da king ! How did it go ? | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
He is the OTK. | ||
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Rels
France13467 Posts
Game setup 5 Townie 1 Wanderer 1 Tracker 1 Occult Detective 1 Silver Bullet Hunter 1 Dracula 1 Vampire 1 Werewolf Town Win condition: Win when Dracula is dead AND the Werewolf is dead. Lose when one of the other parties completes its win condition. Townie: You don't have any special ability. You must vote each day to lynch someone. Wanderer: You have the following abilities: Unaware: You're not aware that you are a Wanderer. You receive a Townie role PM. Wander: Each night, you visit another player selected at random. Tracker: You have the following ability: Track: Each night, you can target another player. At dawn, you will learn the player(s) visited by that target, if any. Occult Detective: You have the following abilities: Occult protection: Each night, you can target a player. If a vampire tries to convert the target, the conversion will fail. You will learn the name of the vampire that tried to convert. You can protect yourself. 1-shot occult vision: Once per game, at night, you can target another player. At dawn, you will learn if that target is part of the Vampire team or not. Silver Bullet Hunter: You have the following abilities: 1 silver bullet: Once per game, at night, you can target another player. If that player is the Werefolf or a Vampire, he will die at dawn. If that player is Dracula or a town member, he won't die, but your shot will still be used. 1 defensive vest: Once per game, if you are attacked by the Werewolf, you won't die but the vest will break. You will die if you are attacked a second time. You will be notified if your vest breaks. Vampire Win condition: Win when half or more of the living players are vampires AND the Werewolf is dead. Lose when one of the other parties completes its win condition. Faction ability - Conversion: Each night, the Vampire team must chose one of its members to visit a non-vampire target. At dawn, the target will become a Vampire; he will keep his previous abilities, gain the factional abilities of the vampire, change his win condition to the Vampire team's one, and flip as Vampire. If the target is protected from the conversion, the protector will learn the name of the vampire that tried it. Faction ability - Talk: The vampire team can discuss in a dedicated QT. Dracula: You have the following abilities: Untrackable: If the tracker targets you, he won't get a result. Faction Leader: If you die, every member of the Vampire team will die. Vampire: You have the following abilities: Converted: If you were converted, you will keep all your previous abilities, if any. You can use your abilities and convert at the same time. Whatever your previous role was, you will flip as Vampire. Loyal: If Dracula dies, you die. Werewolf Win condition: Win when the Werewolf is still alive AND there are only 0 or 1 other remaining living player. Lose when one of the other parties completes its win condition. Werewolf: You have the following abilities: Savage kill: Each night, you must target a player. At dawn, that player will die. Occult defense: If a vampire tries to convert you, the conversion will fail. You will learn the name of the person that tried to convert you. Notes:
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
Basically, the setup has a lot of the same gripes that most 3rd-party games have with the additional frustration (at least, to most players) of changing alignments. I think the game has a fun concept from a theoretical perspective and probably would be fun to observe, but not to play. | ||
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Rels
France13467 Posts
On November 30 2015 19:36 Artanis[Xp] wrote: The problem with that game is the same as most 3rd party games; a lot of it comes down to luck. Dracula needs to tiptoe the line between being townread enough to not get lynched but not being townie enough for the werewolf to want to kill him (presuming the werewolf wants to kill town at that moment). Furthermore, a SK-like character usually punishes those who are playing well/winning; if no scum players are being lynched, the werewolf will try to shoot scum. If they are, then the werewolf will aim for town/people that are onto him. There's also the issue for Dracula that it's hard to really identify a 3rd party over a normal town player. Basically, the setup has a lot of the same gripes that most 3rd-party games have with the additional frustration (at least, to most players) of changing alignments. I think the game has a fun concept from a theoretical perspective and probably would be fun to observe, but not to play. So you think a SK is always a bad idea in a game ? | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
On November 30 2015 19:49 Rels wrote: So you think a SK is always a bad idea in a game ? In non-themed games, yes. | ||
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justanothertownie
16318 Posts
On November 30 2015 19:49 Rels wrote: So you think a SK is always a bad idea in a game ? Exactly. | ||
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Rels
France13467 Posts
Now what is the problem with conversion, if you are aware it s happening ? Trying to see whose attitude has changed sounds interesting, at least in theory. | ||
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justanothertownie
16318 Posts
On November 30 2015 21:54 Rels wrote: Mm. In theory it sounds like a great idea though. Maybe it's frustrating to play against. Now what is the problem with conversion, if you are aware it s happening ? Trying to see whose attitude has changed sounds interesting, at least in theory. It's frustrating to play and frustating to play against. In essence it is just frustrating. And to the other point: Sure, in theory. In reality you don't know peoples alignments so it is hard to detect any "change" in their behaviour. In a game of mafia you find scum by looking at what someone does over the course of the whole game and rarely by what he does in a specific instance. You are making this impossible. Or the other way round you have put in effort and got a few pretty strong townreads. In a normal game you are in ok shape to poe generally. In this one you can't trust them at all. | ||
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Rels
France13467 Posts
On November 30 2015 22:09 justanothertownie wrote: It's frustrating to play and frustating to play against. In essence it is just frustrating. And to the other point: Sure, in theory. In reality you don't know peoples alignments so it is hard to detect any "change" in their behaviour. In a game of mafia you find scum by looking at what someone does over the course of the whole game and rarely by what he does in a specific instance. You are making this impossible. Or the other way round you have put in effort and got a few pretty strong townreads. In a normal game you are in ok shape to poe generally. In this one you can't trust them at all. Yep, but townies are also aware they just have to kill the leader to win. So the person they are looking for should be displaying these cues all game. On one hand, the game is harder 'cause you can't trust anyone just because they were obvious townies the day before; on the other hand, you just have to kill one person to win. | ||
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Rels
France13467 Posts
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justanothertownie
16318 Posts
On November 30 2015 22:13 Rels wrote: Yep, but townies are also aware they just have to kill the leader to win. So the person they are looking for should be displaying these cues all game. On one hand, the game is harder 'cause you can't trust anyone just because they were obvious townies the day before; on the other hand, you just have to kill one person to win. Which basically makes the game dependent on that one persons play and otherwise pretty random in general. | ||
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darthfoley
United States8003 Posts
Not sure if the Mafia should know who the other gang is, or the winning scenarios for the Mafia. I'm just trying to spice Mafia up a bit, because our 8-12 man games have gotten pretty stale. I'll look through this thread for some other cool ideas | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
With these type of setups, it is important to make sure you have sorted out the win conditions ahead of time. A lot of the time you run into a kingmaker type scenario or a tiebreaker to determine which faction wins at endgame. For instance, how is 2 mafia v 2 mafia v 1 town handled? How about 1v1v1? Some games will allow one of the mafia factions to win with town. Others will skip the day cycle when certain conditions are met. TL Mafia XVIII Haunted Mafia Insane Mafia 2 Werewolves Invade Teamliquid Werewolves Invade Teamliquid II Liar Game Mafia | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
So the problem with conversion mechanics is they really have to start out EXTREMELY underpowered or they just snowball super quickly. Each conversion not only means that town loses people, but mafia also gets stronger. AKA it double dips towards wincons. So, first off, I think it probably needs to start with at LEAST 3 more townies. That will balance out some of the conversion stuff. Secondly, if there's a day or two of conversions, it becomes extremely hard for town to make any headway in the game with more mafia helping to deflect off of the Dracula since killing any individual Vampire isn't very meaningful because they'll likely be replaced during the night. An idea to maybe kind of help could be something like whoever does the conversion at night becomes the converted player's 'Master'. Anytime someone's master dies, they also die. So for example, PlayerA is Dracula and B is normal Vampire. B converts playerC during the night, so B becomes Cs master. Now anytime B is killed, C will die too. It gives town a way to deal with the swingy-ness of conversions besides just killing dracula, although admittedly it does make it a bit more swingy in the other direction. TL;DR I think it could be fun as a big game (20'ish people? maybe even more), but in a small game I think it would be too swingy to be enjoyable for any of the factions (town loses fast, mafia loses on a lucky shot, SK loses despite playing well). | ||
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Rels
France13467 Posts
On December 01 2015 05:29 Keirathi wrote: @Rels: it sounds interesting to me in theory. One main issue I see with it is that worst case scenario, game ends night 2 which is kind of unfun if you're town, and especially if you're SK because that means you've played at least decently well but still had 0 chance of winning. So the problem with conversion mechanics is they really have to start out EXTREMELY underpowered or they just snowball super quickly. Each conversion not only means that town loses people, but mafia also gets stronger. AKA it double dips towards wincons. So, first off, I think it probably needs to start with at LEAST 3 more townies. That will balance out some of the conversion stuff. Secondly, if there's a day or two of conversions, it becomes extremely hard for town to make any headway in the game with more mafia helping to deflect off of the Dracula since killing any individual Vampire isn't very meaningful because they'll likely be replaced during the night. An idea to maybe kind of help could be something like whoever does the conversion at night becomes the converted player's 'Master'. Anytime someone's master dies, they also die. So for example, PlayerA is Dracula and B is normal Vampire. B converts playerC during the night, so B becomes Cs master. Now anytime B is killed, C will die too. It gives town a way to deal with the swingy-ness of conversions besides just killing dracula, although admittedly it does make it a bit more swingy in the other direction. TL;DR I think it could be fun as a big game (20'ish people? maybe even more), but in a small game I think it would be too swingy to be enjoyable for any of the factions (town loses fast, mafia loses on a lucky shot, SK loses despite playing well). Thanks for the advice. Your idea of the "master" chain is perfect. It would mean new vampires are harder to detect, but also pretty useless to kill. I like this mechanic. (= I like "swingy" setup, so it's kinda normal this one is like that p: maybe it is too swingy for a mini. Finally, I see what you mean by adding more townies to balance the setup. I thought given the strenght of the blue roles (that are not balanced by anything except the wanderer), the setup couldn't have too many townies. But you're right, a conversion is much more powerful than a kill. | ||
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