EPTTL Mafia XXXVIII
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
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Mr. Wiggles
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On April 02 2011 06:43 BrownBear wrote: Oh yeah, I should probably do that. I will hold off until it's not April Fools Day though. But Great Post Day would be the perfect day to make a great post in Sports n' Games...  | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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Mr. Wiggles
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You should send out reminder PM's. :p | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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On April 09 2011 08:26 Robellicose wrote: woot got my pm. First TL mafia for me! although reading that insane mafia, I'm worried that my post count is going to be dwarfed by all you super active vets... Don't worry too much, this shouldn't be as active as insane, because, well, Insane was Insane. Hopefully people won't spam that much in this game, and I'd even like to put in a request that people try to limit their posting unless they have something relevant/meaningful to add to the conversation. People who just quote others, and say "I agree", or repeat the same things as others have already brought up, are perfect examples of "contributing without contributing", and that's a scum-tell. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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Mr. Wiggles
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Mr. Wiggles
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On April 09 2011 10:17 GGQ wrote: I agree about not spamming for sure, but telling people to "limit their posting unless they have something relevant/meaningful to add" can be intimidating for first time players of forum mafia. If you're a first time player, don't be afraid to get your thoughts out there in the thread, even if your thoughts aren't as deep or valuable as other players' thoughts. You're only gonna learn by trying. Plus, if your posting style makes us see that you're green, we won't have to waste time lynching you :D. Well if you're posting your own thoughts, then that's meaningful AND relevant, haha. But 9000 posts of cats in top hats and monocles wouldn't be. And saying "I agree" after every post isn't really contributing. If you want to agree with someone, at least add your own thought process as to why, and give some kind of explanation. That way you can look for mafia trying to make stuff up too. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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Don't lynch inactives, lynch lurkers. I guess it depends on your definition of inactive, but inactive for me, is someone who's not even playing the game, and has little to no posts. For me, the better choice is to pressure lurkers, who come in and post a couple times, then disappear. I think these are the people we should really be afraid of. They're a lot more dangerous, because by maintaining only a slight activity threshold to appease the town, they're easily able to hide amongst the masses. So personally, I'd rather lynch the guy who comes in twice a cycle to post a couple sentences, than Johnny-No-Posts who's not even playing the game. Lurkers want to hide behind a minimum of activity, inactives aren't even playing. (<--- My Take) I'm going to watch for people acting like that. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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On April 10 2011 02:19 BrownBear wrote: I guess this wasn't obvious in the OP, but remember there is a Mayoral election Day 1! Yeah, but the mayor still needs to figure out who to lynch. :p | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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On April 10 2011 01:51 Robellicose wrote: I'd probably agree with this statement. Unless someone red/black goofs up and it's horrifically obvious that we can lynch them. And whilst I've not played/read a game that used a pardoner, we'll have to be pretty damned careful that we get one of us into the position - imagine a successful lynch of the godfather being blocked by some asshole mafia pardoner. man that would piss me off... The thing about the pardoner is that he better have a damned good reason when he pardons someone if it's not town consensus. He can only pardon once. If he does that randomly when town is voting out a scummy player, like the GF in your example, then we just caught two scum anyways, because the pardoner's revealed himself as anti-town, and the person he saved was already the lynch target. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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On April 10 2011 04:07 GGQ wrote: I agree with this, and want to point out that one way to tell the difference between mafia and assassins is that mafia know each other and assassins only know themselves. So while both will want to avoid notice and will seem anti-town, the mafia will be the ones who seem to have extra information that they are hiding. Also, I think mafia would be more prone to trying to manipulate the town, whereas assassins would probably leave town be while focusing on finding the other assassins. So if you have two players kind've the same, but one is trying to manipulate the lynches and the other isn't, then you can differentiate them. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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Also, as far as medicing him goes, I think we can just drop the discussion on that until Day 2. Assassins can't do anything night one, so unless mafia wants to hit him, there's no need to waste a medic on him. If he still wants to negotiate for kills later, then we can do that when he's actually in a position to kill. However, just to add to that quickly, he's actually useless to town if he's not mayor/pardoner, because if he says he's hitting a town chosen target, mafia can just RB him, because he's outed himself publicly. So, we don't want him in office, and he can't help us out of office. So, overall, I don't think he can help town much, besides giving all the other assassins a non-town target for night 2. Right now, I'm most comfortable picking either GMarshal or Dr.H for mayor. I've gotten the strongest town reads from them, and they've both shown they're not afraid of trying to look for scum and lead town in the right direction. ^ My thoughts. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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On April 11 2011 03:34 GMarshal wrote: Alright protact I see you points, I'm not going to vote for you, but I won't actively oppose you either. I do not think you have the town's best interests at heart and I think that your whole "I'm in it for the glory" spiel is an attempt to manipulate the town. But you *are* one of the best analysts around, and I wouldn't object to having you by my side as a pardoner, assuming you actually wanted to help the town. Frankly I'm torn so I think it best to let the town choose Regarding my "I'll lynch the most inactive player" I think I'm going to redact that to "I'll lynch the player who I feel is lurking the most" by lurking I mean posting content-less posts while trying to appear pro town. Is that ok with everyone? Or would you guys prefer if I just hit the most inactive person? Don't hit the most inactive, that's stupid. The most inactive is likely not even playing the game, or they're just going to get Modkilled. If we want to do a policy lynch on activity, do it on a lurker. You call a lurker someone contributing without contributing, but with the amount of newer players in the game, that might not be the best deciding factor for day 1. I'd say lynch someone who was really active earlier in the game, like pregame, or night 0, and who has completely disappeared with only a minimum of posts by the end of day 1. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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On April 11 2011 03:47 GMarshal wrote: Also, @Dr.H I'm willing to consider a kav lynch, if you provide me with solid reasoning, I have a 70% town read on kav atm, can you point out what he has said that makes you think he is scum? It dosn't have to be terribly detailed, just the salient points of why. As of right now the two lurker lynches I am considering are jackal and wiggles, I'd like to hear thoughts for and against. How am I lurking? I'm just not rehashing the exact same points as everyone else over and over again. I was going to bring up some of the reasons I thought a black mayor wouldn't be optimal, but they were already raised by others, so instead of just repeating what's already been said three times I mentioned that protac isn't going to be useful to us at all if he doesn't get elected, so we shouldn't waste medics on him, just leave him for the other assassins to use hits on, keeping them off of town. | ||
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On April 11 2011 03:59 chaoser wrote: There's no way Prot is mafia btw. He says he has 2 KP and a check. He can't be roleblocked. He either does it or he doesn't. No way mafia would claim assassin to be sent into office only to be proven he can't do the things he says he can do. Mafia has 4 kp, they could probably afford to spend one on nights 2+3, and fake a DT check on night four. Also, protac has mentioned nothing of how he would use said KP. Depending on the chosen method, it would be either easier or harder for it to be a mafia fake. So we'd just get into a ton of WIFOM on days 3+4, over whether he hit vets or mediced targets or not. And that's only if we know his targets, or get to pick his targets, and still, town would be loath to lynch the mayor so early. protac, how would your KP be aimed? Are you notified if you're medic protected? | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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On April 11 2011 04:05 urashimakt wrote: Are you sure assassins can't be roleblocked? I went back and double checked that and I can't confirm it. The mayor can't be roleblocked. Meaning he can't claim being roleblocked if his hit doesn't go through. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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On April 11 2011 04:05 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Mafia has 4 kp, they could probably afford to spend one on nights 2+3, and fake a DT check on night four. Also, protac has mentioned nothing of how he would use said KP. Depending on the chosen method, it would be either easier or harder for it to be a mafia fake. So we'd just get into a ton of WIFOM on days 3+4, over whether protac, how would your KP be aimed? Are you notified if you're medic protected? And now that I think of it, there's other assassin, who may or may not be using their KP on the same night, on different or similar targets. So, there's no way to tell if mafia used all four hits or not. Meaning, it's easy for red to use one of their KPs as the "assassin" KP. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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On April 11 2011 04:27 BrownBear wrote: Actually, all roles are hidden  (no there aren't) KK, thanks. Wanted to make sure AirbladeOrange couldn't be some kind of Village Idiot. Also, Airblade, why do you want to get lynched? Are you just making fun of Dr. H? | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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I was scum that game, so what I did, was try to keep everyone focused on the item game and away from actual analysis. I see the same thing starting to happen now, where town is going to latch onto the assassin game and get too distracted from everything else when it should be a non-issue... Anyways, Why giving out both the names of the bodyguards is not a very good idea: At their core, the bodyguard and pardoner are supposed to be very powerful roles that we would like to get a hold of and use for the benefit of the town. When used correctly, these roles seem like they'd be more than capable of wreaking havoc on the mafia and bringing town victory. If no mafia are elected into office, and they are not confident that they can sway the mayor easily, the best course of action for the reds is to kill the mayor/pardoner. In order to do so, they must first kill the two bodyguards. These bodyguards are unrevealed to the town and mafia, so first mafia need to find them as well. Now, you, Pandain, want to reveal the bodyguards to everyone. Why? To ostensibly put trackers on them in order to catch any assassins/mafia who want to take a shot at the mayor. However, doing this is cringe-worthy to say the least. So why wouldn't it work out? Mafia have four KP, and there are supposedly two other assassins. This means, that if there are no medics, that mafia can kill the two bodyguards as well as the mayor and pardoner in one fell swoop. So, what we'd achieve, is the entire public office dead, traded at the cost of one mafia revealed. The only way to counteract that, would be if we now, IN ADDITION to our trackers, put medic protection on the bodyguards as well. So, you're asking us to focus all of our blue power on two people. But then we just get into a WIFOM spiral where we need to decide to protect either the bodyguards to the detriment of all other pro-town players or other players to the detriment of our bodyguards and mayor/pardoner. In my opinion, this becomes too convoluted to even work with, when compared to keeping the bodyguards known only to the mayor/pardoner. In other words, a bad idea. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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Mr. Wiggles
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Dr.H/Tnkted Dr. H/Gmarshal Tnkted/Dr.H ##Vote Dr. Helvetica | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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On April 11 2011 06:33 Mr. Wiggles wrote: My picks for mayor: Dr.H/Tnkted Dr. H/Gmarshal Tnkted/Dr.H ##Vote Dr. Helvetica Forgot assassin. I'd be willing to let him in as pardoner, but not mayor. Dr.H/protac | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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On April 11 2011 07:32 M0nsterChef wrote: I read the thread and made a vote based on who I think I deserves the role the most. Am I not allowed to vote? No, but it looks highly suspicious that you don't post any thoughts/opinions (or anything at all really) since the game has started, and then come in and vote. What are your thoughts on the current situation? Why do you like GMarshal the best for mayor? Why don't you like the other candidates? | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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On April 11 2011 08:57 GMarshal wrote: Ignoring the running for mayor for a minute (as our main goal *is* killing scum, remember?) I wrote up a nice little PbP on one of my current scum suspects Mr.Wiggles. Each post is in spoilers and my comments are in bold as usual + Show Spoiler + Don't worry too much, this shouldn't be as active as insane, because, well, Insane was Insane. Hopefully people won't spam that much in this game, and I'd even like to put in a request that people try to limit their posting unless they have something relevant/meaningful to add to the conversation. People who just quote others, and say "I agree", or repeat the same things as others have already brought up, are perfect examples of "contributing without contributing", and that's a scum-tell. You know this is a great way to "contribute without contributing" you state a commonly known scum tell and say no spam please... well, duh. Still I can put this off as directing new players A new player asked about activity, and I reassured him that insane was a total spam-fest and while on the topic asked that people try not to post excessively unless they have something new or relevant to add. I'm trying to follow my own advice this game as well. + Show Spoiler + Well this isn't technically night because no one takes actions. That said, there isn't much to talk about because we can't start mayoral campaigns. This means we're limited to mostly talking about general strategy and trying to establish a town policy, like no spam/try to contribute and add to the conversation, and other guidelines we'd like to put into place. Rehash of basic ideas, check! People were fighting over whether we should talk Night 0. Night zero isn't really a night phase because of the reasons I stated, so it was silly to be fighting over whether we should talk during it or not, when we could basically use it as a 24-hour extension to Day 1 to get some of the basic and boring discussion out of the way. + Show Spoiler + Well if you're posting your own thoughts, then that's meaningful AND relevant, haha. But 9000 posts of cats in top hats and monocles wouldn't be. And saying "I agree" after every post isn't really contributing. If you want to agree with someone, at least add your own thought process as to why, and give some kind of explanation. That way you can look for mafia trying to make stuff up too. Spam is bad! No duh, but then again people were posting this kind of nonsense all night 0 so its not indicative Someone took offense when I asked to not post a ton unless you want to add to the conversation because newer players wouldn't post their ideas and opinions. I told him that as long as they're posting their own thoughts, I would consider that both meaningful and relevant. Even already, we're seeing people who aren't adding their own thoughts and are just hiding behind other people. If you feel the need to post without adding anything, well then don't be surprised when people peg you as scum. + Show Spoiler + My thoughts on inactives: Don't lynch inactives, lynch lurkers. I guess it depends on your definition of inactive, but inactive for me, is someone who's not even playing the game, and has little to no posts. For me, the better choice is to pressure lurkers, who come in and post a couple times, then disappear. I think these are the people we should really be afraid of. They're a lot more dangerous, because by maintaining only a slight activity threshold to appease the town, they're easily able to hide amongst the masses. So personally, I'd rather lynch the guy who comes in twice a cycle to post a couple sentences, than Johnny-No-Posts who's not even playing the game. Lurkers want to hide behind a minimum of activity, inactives aren't even playing. (<--- My Take) I'm going to watch for people acting like that. well this *looks* like a contribution, but its a repost of an argument that town agrees on since time immemorial, its like posting "you should build drones" in response to "how do I macro better?" People get all hot over lynching inactives. I think lynching inactives is a dumb idea. Inactives are just as likely to be bored town not playing than scum. A much better idea is to look for people who post a lot, and then disappear. They're not going to get modkilled, but they're still hiding. It's also funny, because you call my opinion here contributing without contributing, but later when you yourself are debating if you won the mayorship if you should lynch inactives or not, I tell you the exact same thing but with more explanation, and you give me "townie points" for it. + Show Spoiler + Also, I think mafia would be more prone to trying to manipulate the town, whereas assassins would probably leave town be while focusing on finding the other assassins. So if you have two players kind've the same, but one is trying to manipulate the lynches and the other isn't, then you can differentiate them. an actual point! Yay! ok, nothing more to see here Posting when I can add something relevant + Show Spoiler + As others have said, I think voting a black in is lose-lose. There's no guarantee he'll do anything to really help us, and then we lose our mayor/pardoner. something I agree with, fair enough Also, as far as medicing him goes, I think we can just drop the discussion on that until Day 2. Assassins can't do anything night one, so unless mafia wants to hit him, there's no need to waste a medic on him. If he still wants to negotiate for kills later, then we can do that when he's actually in a position to kill. However, just to add to that quickly, he's actually useless to town if he's not mayor/pardoner, because if he says he's hitting a town chosen target, mafia can just RB him, because he's outed himself publicly. So, we don't want him in office, and he can't help us out of office. again a really valid point, I have exactly one objection to it, the fact that after concluding that he is useless out of office he still talks about negotiating with the assassin, its an interesting contradiction It wasn't my idea to negotiate for medic protection with him, and I mention this before I conclude he's useless to town out of office. Most of my posts are somewhat stream of consciousness, if I think of something while writing, I just add it. I don't go back and delete what I've written, because this gives my post more transparency and shows my entire thought process. At the time, others thought we should negotiate medic protection in exchange for kills/check, and I said we could do that later if we needed to, on Day 2. I then concluded though, that when we reach that point, he's not going to be much use to us anyways, because he'll just get RBed. I don't see the contradiction here, unless you're reading my post backwards. So, overall, I don't think he can help town much, besides giving all the other assassins a non-town target for night 2. Right now, I'm most comfortable picking either GMarshal or Dr.H for mayor. I've gotten the strongest town reads from them, and they've both shown they're not afraid of trying to look for scum and lead town in the right direction. Yay! ^ My thoughts. + Show Spoiler + Don't hit the most inactive, that's stupid. The most inactive is likely not even playing the game, or they're just going to get Modkilled. If we want to do a policy lynch on activity, do it on a lurker. You call a lurker someone contributing without contributing, but with the amount of newer players in the game, that might not be the best deciding factor for day 1. I'd say lynch someone who was really active earlier in the game, like pregame, or night 0, and who has completely disappeared with only a minimum of posts by the end of day 1. This is a decent point, +1 townie point for it kind sir This is the same thing I said earlier which you said was contributing without contributing. You contradicted yourself here. + Show Spoiler + How am I lurking? I'm just not rehashing the exact same points as everyone else over and over again. I was going to bring up some of the reasons I thought a black mayor wouldn't be optimal, but they were already raised by others, so instead of just repeating what's already been said three times I mentioned that protac isn't going to be useful to us at all if he doesn't get elected, so we shouldn't waste medics on him, just leave him for the other assassins to use hits on, keeping them off of town Alright this is a fair defense of my "lurking" accusation, however in his previous posts he made exactly one good point, that being about the assassin I've thought of good points concurrently with others, so if someone posts it before me, it behooves me to not just repeat the exact same argument for pride's sake. This is me following my "don't excessively post unless I have something meaningful, new, or relevant to add" guideline. + Show Spoiler + And now that I think of it, there's other assassin, who may or may not be using their KP on the same night, on different or similar targets. So, there's no way to tell if mafia used all four hits or not. Meaning, it's easy for red to use one of their KPs as the "assassin" KP. I do believe this was already mentioned, neutral read on this post As far as I know, no one had mentioned that we're not going to be able to tell who's hitting who exactly starting Night 2. Assassin's may or may not hit. Throw in veterans, medics, and roleblocks, and it's going to be very murky if someone was hit by an assassin or by the mafia. Meaning, that if he were red, we wouldn't probably be able to tell by the kills. + Show Spoiler + The assassins are going to turn into the Item Game of Insane 2.... I was scum that game, so what I did, was try to keep everyone focused on the item game and away from actual analysis. I see the same thing starting to happen now, where town is going to latch onto the assassin game and get too distracted from everything else when it should be a non-issue... this is a very, very good point and one I agree with, +1 townie point for him Again, I think we should ignore the assassin game after Day 1, and only deal with it if it becomes necessary to do so. If we do elect protac, then I don't see this happening very easily. Anyways, Why giving out both the names of the bodyguards is not a very good idea: At their core, the bodyguard and pardoner are supposed to be very powerful roles that we would like to get a hold of and use for the benefit of the town. When used correctly, these roles seem like they'd be more than capable of wreaking havoc on the mafia and bringing town victory. yeah, we know this, this is kind of filler It's meant to give a basis and introduction to the rest of my post, stressing the importance of a strong player using mayor for the benefit of town. If no mafia are elected into office, and they are not confident that they can sway the mayor easily, the best course of action for the reds is to kill the mayor/pardoner. In order to do so, they must first kill the two bodyguards. These bodyguards are unrevealed to the town and mafia, so first mafia need to find them as well. again, I think this is obvious Continuing from my logical premise that the mayor is a powerful role. Now, you, Pandain, want to reveal the bodyguards to everyone. Why? To ostensibly put trackers on them in order to catch any assassins/mafia who want to take a shot at the mayor. However, doing this is cringe-worthy to say the least. So why wouldn't it work out? Mafia have four KP, and there are supposedly two other assassins. This means, that if there are no medics, that mafia can kill the two bodyguards as well as the mayor and pardoner in one fell swoop. So, what we'd achieve, is the entire public office dead, traded at the cost of one mafia revealed. The only way to counteract that, would be if we now, IN ADDITION to our trackers, put medic protection on the bodyguards as well. So, you're asking us to focus all of our blue power on two people. But then we just get into a WIFOM spiral where we need to decide to protect either the bodyguards to the detriment of all other pro-town players or other players to the detriment of our bodyguards and mayor/pardoner. This is an actual good point +1 town point And this is the conclusion I draw from my premises. If I just typed this, it would be somewhat baseless. This is 1+1=2. 2 might seem all exciting, but you need the other side of the equation to give a starting point for my conclusions. This is just how I reason, take my post as a whole. In my opinion, this becomes too convoluted to even work with, when compared to keeping the bodyguards known only to the mayor/pardoner. In other words, a bad idea. + Show Spoiler + Forgot assassin. I'd be willing to let him in as pardoner, but not mayor. Dr.H/protac interesting, Wiggles said "I thought a black mayor wouldn't be optimal" but now he is ok with a black pardoner... it is noteworthy, and if kav's theory that Pro is actualy red holds true then very, very revealing Black mayor is bad in my eyes. However, after seeing the arguments in the thread, and protac's own defense of his candidacy, I think that it wouldn't be the worst thing to have him as the pardoner. That said, I listed my choices in order of preference. I only control one vote, so these are just my opinions, I can't pick two people, so if the rest of town wants the assassin, I'd rather he's the pardoner than the mayor. + Show Spoiler + No, but it looks highly suspicious that you don't post any thoughts/opinions (or anything at all really) since the game has started, and then come in and vote. What are your thoughts on the current situation? Why do you like GMarshal the best for mayor? Why don't you like the other candidates? same questions I ask, after I asked them... slightly scummy, but it could be down to simultaneous posts Exactly that, you ninja! :p I'm not sure how it's scummy though, the same thing has happened many times in this thread already. Conclusion: Lurking he adds a total of two new ideas by my count and his best post is the one focused on not exposing the bgs, I'm having a hard time labeling him as anything. Hence I suggest we all keep an eye on him and make him post more, I'm leaning slightly more towards scum than town atm, but I need more to analyze There's my defense, for your benefit. | ||
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On April 11 2011 11:04 kevconsim wrote: Just wondering who is red? im guessing its red but i just want to make sure before i over think. My original posts are normal, I made GMarshal's red, and then my responses are in bold. Sorry for not mentioning. | ||
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A misunderstanding. | ||
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Firstly, FOS RedFF. You're putting way too much emphasis on the relations between votes and alignment. After a single vote, I don't think it's very telling at all, and isn't really indicative of alignment. So while you might get some useful information from voting patterns down the road, I don't think you'll net the whole scum team by just looking at who's voting for GMarshal. All you're serving to do now is spread fear and confuse people. Also, your tunneling of Monster seems odd to me. GMarshal I think it's silly to lynch the pardoner - If we want rid of the role completely, try and vote a green in and get him to pardon one of the early lynches (perhaps the first one where we aren't sure of our lynch victim, probably the day 1 lynch). This gets rid of the pardon whilst still protecting a probable green. If mafia obtain one of the positions, and don't block the lynch, then we can lynch on the next turn in the knowledge that we're definitely lynching scum that time. Please do not consider lynching the pardoner purely to get rid of the pardon. There is no reason to. Pardoning an early lynch isn't a good idea if it's for no particular use. This is for one of the same reasons I wouldn't want a black mayor. If we're forced to pardon, or to policy lynch, this early in the game, all it does is give scum another chance to shoot 4 kp into the town, and if we do it on day 2, it give assassins another chance to shoot too. So that's 8-14 KP for only one lynch or no lynch at all. And, in thinking about it, the pardon doesn't seem to have much use at all for town. If we could agree on a lynch target for today, one thing we could try to do, is vote in one mayor, and then vote our lynch target in as pardoner. Then the mayor just lynches the "pardoner", who was the original lynch target. This way, we kill the same player and get rid of the decidedly anti-town pardoner at the same time. If the pardoner pardons near the start of the game, can we still lynch him? | ||
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On April 12 2011 08:08 Serejai wrote: ...what? I'm sorry I'm still trying to learn how to play this game but... what does skin color have to do with anything. That's just being racist =/ That's my Grandpa speaking, sorry. Sometimes I just get all worked up and things like that slip out. | ||
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We do NOT want any scum in the leadership positions at all as they will learn the identities of the bodyguards. I forgot about the BGs -_- . The point of this though, would be to lynch the pardoner NOW, right as the mayor is elected, so we wouldn't have to deal with him. Ideally, we would have a pro-town player as the pardoner, who would probably never use the pardoning ability. However, if we vote someone who could be scum in, that's not very good for town at all. Thus, my proposal that we could potentially just kill the pardoner Day 1, by voting in an agreed lynch. Honestly, I can't think of any situation where we'd really want to pardon somebody. | ||
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On April 12 2011 12:54 GMarshal wrote: Kita I think your supporters have to move their votes to me to make sure that the assassin dosn't get into the town elected roles. On April 12 2011 12:56 GMarshal wrote: Damnit, I was hoping to be able to go to bed without having to fight for the town for another hour. I am as always your immortal servant town, so I wont allow you to fuck up! These two posts disturb me. The first one, says "Hey guys, switch votes to me so I can be mayor!", and the second is you trying to reaffirm your towniness. Honestly, these rub me the wrong way, and they look like you're trying to make some last bid to get into first place and secure the mayorship. It doesn't look like a town move, but more like scum trying to fear monger. I'm not sure how comfortable I am with you in office now. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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Detective: Rean Cubedin TranceStorm DarthThienAn darmousseh redFF Barundar Watcher/Tracker: Jackal58 Coagulation chaoser kitaman27 aidnai Just some quick names off the top of my head, no where near a rigorous list, considering there's still 39 people. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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On April 14 2011 05:27 Robellicose wrote: I'm fairly convinced from reading everyone's arguments that coag is red, so I'm sticking with lynching him so we do not waste a vigi hit. I'm convinced of m0nsterchefs scumminess too, but I'd rather the lynch went on a mafia player who's being really active - if the mafia mouthpiece dies, others will have to start speaking up to derail our analysis, and it'll give us some good targets to pressure if a lurker starts speaking up after someone who's been active flips red. If you think coag is red, how is shooting him "wasting" a vigi hit? | ||
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Mr. Wiggles' Take on FW vs. Coag ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/84opT.jpg) Ok, so I just got home from school (last class of semester, yay!), only to open up the thread, see who died, and find 15 new pages of information. So, there's been a lot of debate on Flamewheel's DT claim, and how he fingered Coag as red, and I'd like to add my own thoughts to it. Information available to me: -FW claimed Assassin Day 1, in an attempt to secure the mayorship -FW is a veteran, and lauded analyzer -FW has now claimed DT, saying he checked Coag and that he is Mafia -There are no Framers -Coag has claimed Veteran, and is adamantly defending himself Thoughts: I'm personally inclined to believe that at this point, FW is either an Assassin or a Detective. I'm not going to entertain the idea that he's a Townie or Mafia. If he's a Townie, then this is very anti-town play, because he could have easily claimed the mayorship without any kind of claim, and now he's faking being a DT. That would mean he's involved in two major lies, but hey, he'd probably be having fun :p. If he's mafia, then this doesn't make much sense either, as again, he could have easily claimed the mayorship without any claim, and then everything that follows would be complete insanity, though if he were somehow mafia, it would follow closely to my thoughts on if he were an assassin. So, without further ado: Case 1: Flamewheel is an Assassin Then, his claim day 1 is a very strong power play against the other assassins. He would assure himself immunity from them, while also having complete security from accidental hits from mafia or vigilantes. There is nothing illogical about a Black trying this. However, he never made it into office. This then leaves him in a bit of a tight spot. Mafia have no reason to shoot him if he's black, so he'll probably live through Night 1, but he needs to find a way to live at least past night 2. So what can he do? Claim detective, and put his strong analytical skills to work. A lot of people seem to be mistaking that just because FW claimed he used a check, he must be DT because Assassins can't use a check Night 1, without considering the possibility that he used no check at all (Looking at you, new players). All game long, I've had to read how in awe people are of his scum hunting skills, so considering this, it would be relatively easy for him to pick out at least one potential scum candidate and make a case against him, using the fake DT check as extra leverage. This fits in with his motivations of self-preservation. If he's wrong, so what? He just gets killed which, and this is important, he would have anyways after claiming Assassin AND Detective. If he's right, then he can potentially attract medic attention, and live through the night, which is his optimal move at the moment. Case 2: Flamewheel is a Detective Then, according to him at least, his claim day 1 was a draw to get mafia and other assassins to attack him, so he would have more information to work with. However, in doing so, he most likely lessened his chances of actually making it in to office. So, this is not illogical, but is more of a choice of information over security. So, as he would have expected, he did not make it into office, but was free to use his check last night, on Coag, with it coming back as mafia. Now, he needs to build his case against him, but in order to get town to actually believe him, he has to claim his real role, Detective. This will allow him to lynch a scum, and draw medic protection so he can continue checking. It also dissuades Assassins from hitting him, so he can continue to help the town. Why Coag's Flip Will Reveal Nothing Useful About Flamewheel: Let's say that Coag flips Town (Green/Blue). Then FW is lying, and is an Assassin. His gambit has failed, and now the other Assassins will kill him overnight. This reveals nothing to town, only other Assassins. Let's say that Coag flips Mafia. This reveals nothing to us about FW. All it shows is that he might be a DT, or he's a good analyst. We don't know anything about his alignment, only that he can pick out scum. (Which is useful but has dangers, addressed later). My Opinion: I'm personally inclined to think that Flamewheel is an Assassin. While both scenarios are sound and have nothing inconsistent in them, I find the first one to be more likely. After a failed claim and run at the mayor, this is exactly how a good player like FW would have to play it in order to have any further chance at winning. If he were a DT, there are many different ways he could have played out Day 1 and now Day 2, and pretending to be an assassin seems to be one of the oddest. This means that his case on Coag is entirely analysis, and should be treated as such, though keep in mind this does not necessarily lessen the case on him. How we should proceed: Lynching Coag? Lynching Coag is only an option if we have been convinced that he is a member of the mafia. If you are only convinced because of the claim, but not by analysis, then I urge you to reconsider your decision. If you are convinced by the analysis, then nothing is really amiss. The only oddities I see with Coag is that he hasn't seemed quite as aggressive and spammy as earlier games (The same applies to Jackal), so this might be due to his claim, or to his being mafia, both are possible. In my opinion, we should consider if there are other scummy targets who we can lynch, as Coag has claimed Veteran. Like GMarshal (and others) have said, we can use a vigilante shot on Coag tonight to see if he is Red or a Veteran. This might require the Vigilante to claim, in order to assure its authenticity, but then we either have two confirmed townies, or two confirmed scum (If the shot is faked). This is debatable however, so I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on it. Medic Protecting Flamewheel? Again, this is debatable. I don't think we should lynch him really, as we are either lynching a Detective or an Assassin, both of which are bad for town (The Assassin less so). So, we are left with the decision of either leaving him to die by Assassins or Mafia, or protecting him to continue to analyze and possibly check. He'll be targeted by either or both factions because of his two claims. Assassins will hit him as they think he is an Assassin, or Mafia will hit him as they think he is a Detective. So, should we protect him? From my perspective, no. We will not know his role until he either flips, or is investigated himself and that information is made public. This means that we can only trust in him so far as his analysis and scum hunting goes. However, as I mentioned earlier, there is an inherent danger in this. Flamewheel has a reputation as a good analyst. If he is an assassin, he can very easily analyze the players he believes to be the other Assassins and put a spin on the analysis so that his final conclusion is Mafia. This entails that he'll be using town to kill his competition, wasting our lynches. This is the first reason for not protecting him, the next being that it won't do him any good anyways. Right now, he is a prime target for both the Mafia and the other Assassins, and there is a high likelihood that they will stack, when there is a separate 3-5 KP that might be aimed at him, from the mafia spending one, and anywhere between two to four Assassins all wanting to kill him. A medic protecting him is a waste. If people want to increase his chances of surviving the night, a much better choice is to place a watcher on him, as then we may net ourselves a Mafia and collaterally, the names of potentially several Assassins. So Who Do We Lynch? At this point in time, I don't know. What we should do, is pull back for a minute and start scumhunting. Several people have created several analysis, and I'm sure there are more that can be made if the town starts actively analyzing. At the very least, this will give us more information, as everyone will either analyze, or will be analyzed, giving us something to work with in the coming days. Hopefully we can find someone worth lynching in the next day and a half, and if not, we may be forced to reconsider the Coag vs. Flamewheel debate. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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On April 14 2011 11:11 Protactinium wrote: Here's a long post that says nothing. Let me rephrase your last paragraph. "What we should do, is ignore the real debate and try to take off the pressure for a bit. Several people have created analyses, so if we make more, maybe we can drown out the Coagulation lynch! At the very least, this will cause chaos and save Coagulation for a day. Hopefully we can find an alternative target, because I sure don't want to lynch Coagulation." Let me summarize: -I think you're an assassin desperate to find a way to stay alive. -Whether I'm right or wrong, there's a huge chance you're getting shot multiple times tonight, so there's no need to waste a medic on you. If we want to increase your chances of living, a watcher should be sufficient to scare people away. -I think a vig shot is sufficient for Coag, if he dies, so what, if he lives, he's town. -Instead of holding hands and singing songs waiting to lynch Coag, we should still be looking at other players. Why don't you want to do that? Should we just sit around for the next 48 hours? -If we find other scummy players, lynch them, shoot coag, or vice versa, depending on circumstances. -If we don't find anyone scummy enough to lynch, we just lynch Coag. Easy. Simple. Stop being so inflammatory. (HAHA PUN) | ||
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Also sticking a vote on GMarshal, so he can be considered a "lynch target", and so if he inexplicably pardons we can carry on his lynch. I'm probably going to continue doing this each day, and if I die, suggest someone else does too. He needs at least one vote on him so he can be considered a "target" in case of random pardons. | ||
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2nd Place: PARDONER: You are the deputy mayor, but because the mayor is an asshole who hogs all the power, you don't really do much except for one thing: Once per game, you may choose to pardon a lynch target for that particular day. You may invoke the power at any time during the day cycle you choose, and no lynch will happen that day. You enjoy the same bodyguard-protection the mayor has. You are not immune to lynch, and if you are the lynch target, you may not pardon yourself. How do you define lynch target? How many votes does a "lynch target" need? My original plan, that I forgot because I never got to the thread until 14 hours after the lynch, was to stick a vote on GMarshal, so that he can't just pardon right away and waste a day or something. My vote as is, has potential to change, but I forgot he can ninja pardon, and was going to do it last night anyways, and FW reminded me of that. | ||
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On April 14 2011 13:07 aidnai wrote: yeah that's kinda dumb wiggles. What does that accomplish besides leaving no voting trail? Because you can change your votes, and it stops a pardon one minute into the day. | ||
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On April 14 2011 13:11 MetalFace wrote: Prot lied. He either lied about being an assassin or lied about being a DT. I think it's the best policy of the town to lynch anyone who lies. This benefits the town because only townies can tell the truth the entire game. As for who I think we should lynch otherwise, I'd say Rean. aidnai did a pretty nice analysis a while back. I think our next target though should have more to do with the results of Prot's flip and what happens at night. If Prot flips DT, then Coag will have a big sign over his head. If not, then we take a better look at anyone who supports Prot's lying ways. Town lies too, and mafia are pretty capable of playing without exposing any lies they might need to make. I'm against lynching FW because we can just leave him to absorb multiple mafia and assassin KP tonight. | ||
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Thanks. So, I propose that we always keep at least one vote on GMarshal. This means that if he ever pardons, and we don't agree with the decision, we can lynch him. No hard feelings. :p | ||
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On April 15 2011 01:25 Barundar wrote: @Jackal: You have solid argumentation and clear opinions so far. I guess the moment you aren't obvious town we should lynch you asap  . I agree with your argument, my counter argument would be: But why did he pick out coag? He must believe in his case. That makes it worth listening to. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on that one.-Protac is an assassin -He fake claimed DT -He picked a person he thought was Red (maybe Black) to analyze -He was hoping that if he flipped Red, he'd get medic protection because he's a "Detective" -Everyone called bull-shit on his lie -His analysis on Coag still stands, but his claim doesn't strengthen it -If you're just voting for coag because of the claim, you're not playing intelligently (Not directed at you Barundar, just in general :p) -Keep in mind he might think Coag is black, as if there's three assassins and not four, he can go for a tie tonight, which is closer to his win condition than losing. -Vig Coag -Find another scum for lynch -If no scum can be found, or there's no case stronger than the one on Coag, Lynch him -In point form for those who apparently don't like reading | ||
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I'm personally thinking aidnai might be scummy, I'm going to do an analysis, but basically he didn't contribute any opinions Day 1, besides a bit of back and forth on Kav and then giving Kav advice after he was already lynched, and hasn't done much Day 2 but post a list of new players with not many posts and say "scum" and do a weak analysis on Rean. The rest is just one-line spam. Not sure if people would be willing to lynch him, but I've got my eye on him. If not that, then probably ON, though LSB has acted more pro-town in my eyes since he's joined, so it makes it a little weird. Serejai is a throwaway lynch. | ||
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On April 15 2011 06:54 Kenpachi wrote: Would you lose a DT over a Vet? Think about it, Protact is a waste of a lynch. Directs KP (black) to 1 person if Coag is town. If we lynch coag and he flips red, it says nothing about protact's alignment, and we're likely to be in the same situation regarding him tomorrow. Lynching him is a bad idea too, as we're either lynching a DT (unlikely in my opinion) or an assassin (not so great for town still compared to lynching a mafia). | ||
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On April 15 2011 09:16 DoctorHelvetica wrote: That's a good point. In fact coagulation being godfather would explain the major save. also I see absolutely no reason for you to tunnel coag unless you're the DT. If you're scum that only makes sense if you're busing him which is still a scum lynch for us. If you're DT it makes perfect sense. IF you're assassin it would have been easier to admit your lie and try a different bid for medic protection. Voting for Coagulation is the sensible thing to do. If you're wrong you're dead in the night anyway. If coag is GF he would've shown up as Veteran to the DT check, like Trance just pointed out. | ||
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GMarshal, I'm 50-50 on. I'm starting to think Rean is Red. Coag might be red, I'd like to see a check/vig. | ||
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On April 15 2011 09:23 chaoser wrote: I'd rather have a Coag lynch, LSB check/vigi. There's so much defense over coag himself where they're merely arguing against Prot's alignment and not the actual analysis. There's throwaway lines like "he's always spammy, this is how he is" etc. when really, yeah he's spammy, but it's a focused targetted spam. He'd be on someone's ass hardcore. But he hasn't this game. I haven't felt the need to be like god damnit coag, chill the fuck out that I usually do. He's playing different. Pretty sure at this point we all know prot is black and he's going to get shot to shit. Doesn't mean the theory of Coag being GF any less true. It lines up with why people are coming out in FORCE to save him. Sure, it doesn't make much difference to me. The thing though, is, Coag has claimed vet, so a shot on him if there's an actual vig won't kill him, or will kill him if he's mafia. LSB hasn't claimed anything, and I doubt there'd be a third vet, so any shot on him is going to kill him. If he's town/blue, we lose an asset, if he's red no problem. DT checks are unreliable, because I don't necessarily trust that GM is a detective, and I wouldn't want another "DT" to claim, also not considering that LSB may be the GF. So: Coag: If town: Shot tonight and he'll live If Mafia: Shot tonight, he'll die LSB: If town: Shot tonight and he'll die If Mafia: Shot tonight, he'll die Is how it boils down for me. It depends if we can rely on a vigi also, though. Like I said, I wouldn't rely on "DT" checks. | ||
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On April 15 2011 09:28 Rean wrote: Except TranceStorm didn't even fucking read the first 4 words. "IF I'M NOT DT". And so did Dr. H, or else why would he call protac a DT. I'm just saying that protac is Black, there's no if about it. | ||
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On April 15 2011 09:32 Rean wrote: and another quality post by Mr.Wiggles once again doing nothing except stating the obvious. Dr. H was mistakenly concluding that protac was the detective. Before he started trying to use that information to make decisions, I corrected him. You seem like you're getting pretty desperate about something. | ||
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On April 15 2011 09:53 LSB wrote: Summary of the reasons why people are being pushed to lynch. Flamewheel Lied about being DT. Is obviously ainitown Coagulation Flamewheel said he is DT and check coagulation who turned up red LSB Defends coagulation. Coagulation was checked by Flamewheel and is red. Therefore LSB is red. All I can say is wow I don't care whether or not you defended Coag, but you're pushing a plan that is blatantly anti-town. Lynching Protac is not the way to go about this. He's probably getting shot a whole lot tonight, we shouldn't use the lynch. That's why I'm voting you. | ||
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On April 15 2011 10:18 GMarshal wrote: you dont trust the assassin and confirmed liar? SHAME ON YOU! You must be scum! horrible, horrible scum! Trust the liar, NOW! or he might tell the town he DTed you and make you out to be mafia! GMarshal, going on tilt doesn't help you look town. Voting for him has nothing to do with trusting for him. Voting for him is silly. If you don't trust him, fine, but there's no reason to vote for him besides not wanting to take a position. | ||
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On April 15 2011 10:21 LSB wrote: How about me? There are two people up for vote, me and coagulation. I don't want to lynch coag, and voting for myself is stupid Then pick someone you think is scum. If you think protact is scum, sure, vote for him. But for everyone voting for him because he's an assassin, it's silly. Lynching an assassin isn't very great for town. | ||
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On April 15 2011 10:25 Coagulation wrote: I Think a pardon would clear this whole mess up. Pardon whoever gets lynched Me or LSB And watch assassin flip black tonight. I can assure town he WILL flip black. I think LSB is mafia. I won't believe you're town until you get shot/checked for sure. Protac being black or not has nothing to do with it. This makes it seem more likely you're scum, a pardon doesn't help us at all. | ||
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On April 15 2011 10:29 Lemonwalrus wrote: It is at least 3, I will have all the proof you need as soon as it is confirmed that this is against the rules and will get them modkilled. Smurfs are supposed to have checked in with the host before the game has begun, so if it's true, then BB probably knows about it. Also, aren't strategic modkills not allowed? | ||
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I guess, depends on if BB knows about it already or not, and what his decision is, then. | ||
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On April 15 2011 10:38 Protactinium wrote: I disagree. LSB is town. Until Coagulation flips red. Coagulation is THE lynch target of the day. Don't split the vote by voting LSB, that will just let mafia come in and switch the vote to a random townie. What's the link in between LSB and Coag that makes it so that Coag's flip assures LSB's scumminess? I'm voting for him because he's pushing an anti-town plan, and ON was already scummy looking. | ||
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On April 15 2011 10:43 LSB wrote: If Coag is blue and Proc is black is it ainti town? If Coag is blue and Proc is Red is it ainti town? Yes, and Yes. Lynching a Black is a waste of the town's lynch. There's no good reason to lynch a black instead of scumhunting for a red. Further, he has claimed Black. That means that there are likely going to be anywhere from 2-4 Assassins potentially shooting at him tonight. If he's Black, then he's killed by other Assassins, so what. If he's Red, and killed by the Assassins, then they just did town a favour. In my opinion, he's black, and there's no reason to lynch him. Whether or not he is, I think he's going to get shot at least once tonight, and die. This means there is no reason to lynch him. All it does, is waste our lynch that could be used on another scummy player, and give the mafia another night of shooting town. | ||
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On April 15 2011 10:55 GMarshal wrote: I'm not willing to be reasonable about this. I am sticking to my guns, if it means I die then so fucking be it. See you in hell fw! I do not lynch on the words of someone who is anti town I do not follow a liar I will not allow the town to do the same while it is in my power to prevent it. This isn't about weather or not coag is scum, I dont give a damn if protac guessed right. This is about fighting for my principles And I will be damned, to the pits of hell, if I go back on my principles. DO NOT PARDON. If you don't agree with the Coag lynch, then vote for someone else. If you do this, you damn yourself, and you damn coag. You destroy any credibility you might have had in this game. DO NOT PARDON. | ||
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On April 15 2011 13:03 GMarshal wrote: Well, ladies and gentlemen, it was nice knowing you and I hope you have fun lynching me. tomorrow. Take this as a personal and very dear fuck you to the cheaters that ruined this game. You will not have your victory, I personally will not let you have it. My policy is fuck over cheaters and then worry about my win condition, screw LaL, screw survival. When people cheated the game stopped mattering. ##Pardon: AirbladeOrange. Goodnight, sweethearts, I hope the taste of victory snatched away from you is as bitter as the taste of having the game ruined is for me So what was this all about?  | ||
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On April 15 2011 13:55 DoctorHelvetica wrote: He tried to pardon himself based on a loophole in the rhetoric of the pardoner description. I was being sarcastic. Also, he just admitted to being scum. :3 | ||
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On April 15 2011 14:00 kitaman27 wrote: Guess that means the bodyguard identities are known to mafia. After the flip, DrH might as well post their identities so we have 2 confirmed townies and medic targets. Wait for the flip, he might have been an assassin too. | ||
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On April 15 2011 14:32 Barundar wrote: Yup, probably the godfather considering he wanted a "real" DT check. What do we do with protac? Protac is 90% Black in my eyes. Whether he's black or blue, there's going to be 2-4 assassins, and possibly the mafia all wanting to shoot at him tonight. That's a lot of KP, and I think the chances are high that he'll get doublestacked. As it is, I wouldn't use a medic on him. If we want to raise his chances of survival, I'd call for a watcher to be placed on him. This is only if we'd like to keep him around for analysis, as whether he's black or blue, he's going to try to help us catch scum to try to stay alive. The only danger is if he's Black, he'll probably analyze other assassins as mafia. I went over this already in my big "useless" post. | ||
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On April 15 2011 14:38 Barundar wrote: Well if protact is going to die tonight, he will most likely use all 3 of his KP. So many dead people tomorrow... He can only use one at a time, can't he? | ||
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On April 15 2011 14:38 GGQ wrote: Protactinium is 100% assassin. Let him die, protect bgs and other valued townies. I never said to protect him. I only said if we want to keep him around another day for analysis, we can place a watcher on him, or at least ask for a watcher on him. Because mafia might hit him too, after he claimed DT, especially if he was right about coag. A watcher would catch potentially a mafia, as well as several assassins. Again, only if there's some reason to keep him around. | ||
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I'd say: Medics: On the BGs Trackers: Whoever you think is scummy, not coag/LSB Watchers: People you think are likely to get hit tonight Vig: Coag DT: LSB | ||
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On April 15 2011 14:56 Barundar wrote: Well if you want to WIFOM medic lists, BG's are first priority protection, but chaoser is almost guaranteed town at this point... (I know I said that about coag yesterday, but hey!) Just wanted to WIFOM if there were both medics and watchers on BGs like whoever was proposing. If we just do medics, then medics can just do BGs. Chaoser is a good choice though, too. | ||
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Also protact needed to shoot Eiii to complete my master plan, but it never did. | ||
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On April 24 2011 12:30 Jackal58 wrote: 2 questions. Which one of you nimrods shot me. How did Proact and others manage to play under one name? I shot the medic, so don't worry. :p | ||
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On April 24 2011 13:02 chaoser wrote: And I'm saying he would never do that because it would lead straight to his lynch aka him losing the game. Town knows he needs to survive to win and he knows he needs to help town to survive. If he's running and telling town he's assassin then we have mutual ambitions to a certain extent. He wants to win assassin game and so wouldn't betray town since we'd lynch him. The thing is, if he thinks he can win the assassin game with a hit, he's going to try to do it most likely. Then that means that if he misses, town is forced to lynch him, and you also get into a situation where he can blackmail town with the names of the BGs too. You can't really control him, you can just limit your risk. For example, if BGs got sniped, would he have still continued to help town? | ||
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On April 24 2011 13:06 Mr. Wiggles wrote: The thing is, if he thinks he can win the assassin game with a hit, he's going to try to do it most likely. Then that means that if he misses, town is forced to lynch him, and you also get into a situation where he can blackmail town with the names of the BGs too. You can't really control him, you can just limit your risk. For example, if BGs got sniped, would he have still continued to help town? And just to add on, if he got voted in as pardoner, with how the rule was, he could postpone his lynch by a day. So say one assassin showed up dead, he could shoot who he thought was an assassin the next night, and if town tried to lynch him, he could just pardon. That gives two extra rounds of hits to the mafia, because a black is trying to win the game, so not good for town. | ||
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On April 25 2011 06:37 tnkted wrote: I did, as a matter of fact, it was a even more fun when you have everybody's roles! And for the record, (you couldn't read it) in the dead person's channel I said several times that I thought you were playing very well. You were last on my suspect list, I was entirely caught off guard by the fact that you were mafia. Keep up the good work. I'm casting too, I call it. Decon, feel up for streamin' again? If it's SC2 I'll actually be able to contribute, lawl. Also, I won't have exams this time. | ||
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