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I can argue against it!
Here is why: we have a *confirmed* liar telling us to lynch someone who you think *might* be lying, normally I would argue that we lynch the liar first and take it from there. But you point out that both are going to die is irrlevant, as policy we don't lynch on a liar's claims, period.
This is a waste of a lynch if coag is what he claims, a vet.
I have an alternate suggestion, ignore the two, have a vigi hit coag tonight, if his claim is false then coag is dead, wham we got scum, if he is telling the truth we have a confirmed townie.
In the meantime assassins take care of protac for us, no need to expend a lynch on a situation that is easily resolvable. Instead we can direct our lynch at a real scum supect, like M0nster or AO.
I think this is the best solution to the problem.
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Jackal you ninja! 
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Why are you suggesting we waste our lynch? There is litereally no chance of prot/fw being dt. None.
fw is a vet, he knows what he is doing. What "advantages" does he gain from fakeclaiming assassin day 1? he "lures out reds?" He self proclaims his ability as a scum hunter yet he runs claiming a third party wincon? As a dt he could claim dt, get in office and rape scum with both analysis and his dt checks. Instead he uses a convoluted plan?
This is the same experienced player that then last minute voteswings a mayoral vote and gets a known town analyzer killed. A town member who was posting helpfully to new players, as well as analyzing people.
See what he did last day and what he’s doing now. He is gambling on getting med protection. His actions have shown he is in no means a dt. It is anti town to play the way he has and he certainly cannot claim inexperience.
In a setup with a known liar claiming dt and finding scum you lynch the accuser. Lynching the accused tells you nothing about the accuser. You always lynch the accuser first. Add in the rule of Lynch all Liars you have the person you should be lynching first.
Coag has also claimed a role that is provable with a night hit. Shoot him and get a confirmed townie to rally around! Mafia has to waste hits killing him, medics can prot him and we make the mafia uncomfortable. Seems like a better investment than lynching and moving on.
It makes most sense to
Lynch neither of them.
Vigi coag
Assassins will almost deff shoot prot, and we lynch someone that we aren’t relying on a third parties “word” is red.
Seriously is it that hard to see?
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On April 14 2011 01:09 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 01:01 GMarshal wrote:
Why are you suggesting we waste our lynch? There is litereally no chance of prot/fw being dt. None.
fw is a vet, he knows what he is doing. What "advantages" does he gain from fakeclaiming assassin day 1? he "lures out reds?" He self proclaims his ability as a scum hunter yet he runs claiming a third party wincon? As a dt he could claim dt, get in office and rape scum with both analysis and his dt checks. Instead he uses a convoluted plan?
This is the same experienced player that then last minute voteswings a mayoral vote and gets a known town analyzer killed. A town member who was posting helpfully to new players, as well as analyzing people.
See what he did last day and what he’s doing now. He is gambling on getting med protection. His actions have shown he is in no means a dt. It is anti town to play the way he has and he certainly cannot claim inexperience.
In a setup with a known liar claiming dt and finding scum you lynch the accuser. Lynching the accused tells you nothing about the accuser. You always lynch the accuser first. Add in the rule of Lynch all Liars you have the person you should be lynching first.
Coag has also claimed a role that is provable with a night hit. Shoot him and get a confirmed townie to rally around! Mafia has to waste hits killing him, medics can prot him and we make the mafia uncomfortable. Seems like a better investment than lynching and moving on.
It makes most sense to
Lynch neither of them.
Vigi coag
Assassins will almost deff shoot prot, and we lynch someone that we aren’t relying on a third parties “word” is red.
Seriously is it that hard to see? Nah yo, if you're mafia then this is the BEST reason to lynch coag. Mafia's best play if coag was mafia is to pardon him. We're forcing your hand if that's the case. Why put off something we're sure of. Why waste a shot on coag when we could use them on other scum? Show nested quote +As a dt he could claim dt, get in office and rape scum with both analysis and his dt checks. You saw what happened to Pandain when he claimed DT. He was destroyed by town. A DT claim would cause massive scrutiny by all and in the end he would learn nothing. An assassin claim would only really cause scum, another blacks, and a few townies to be against him. It's a brilliant plan Show nested quote +This is the same experienced player that then last minute voteswings a mayoral vote and gets a known town analyzer killed. A town member who was posting helpfully to new players, as well as analyzing people. If he thinks you're mafia then this play would make sense. Rather have a townie mayor make a mistake Day 1 Lynch than a mafia in office. You yourself even said that you might consider Kav as the day went on yesterday btw. You even said he was acting scummy and posting for the sake of posting with his "help". Are you backtracking that? Show nested quote +See what he did last day and what he’s doing now. He is gambling on getting med protection. Whatever happens we don't give him medic protect. BAM. Resolves your issue.
I thought I made it clear that while I endorse LaL i'd rather see it enforced by vigis? Policy lynches are impossible to analyze because the mafia can happily jump on them and this makes the lynch much less effective at granting information. I explained this earlier.
Also fw didn't have to claim dt, he could have run on "Im a fucking god among analysts" and most of the town, including me would have probably voted him in.
Claiming assassin if you are not is 100% stupid, I dont care what "brilliant" justifications he is coming up with now, this smacks of LSB's bait and switch.
And while I said that I considered that kav deserved scrutiny you'll notice that I was going to lynch an inactive or a lurker, not kav.
Also when did this turn into a personal attack on me? I'm trying to stop you from making a mistake
Also you seem to be considering that the vigi shot is super valuable, more often than not vigi shots end up going into the town, with coag at least theres a clear target. If coag *is* a vet then we have a confirmed townie who we can rally around, who mafia have no choice but to waste kp on while our medics protect him. If by some miracle he isn't shot tonight and all kp are accounted then he is definitely mafia, probably the gf since he seems to want a dt check so bad
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On April 14 2011 01:35 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +Also, @Dr.H I'm willing to consider a kav lynch, if you provide me with solid reasoning, I have a 70% town read on kav atm, can you point out what he has said that makes you think he is scum? It dosn't have to be terribly detailed, just the salient points of why. Show nested quote +Kav, are you aware that there is a guide that pretty much covers that?
Also I hate to say this, but that is a major example of a noncontributing post that looks like a fucking huge wall of text imo, because it is actualy irrelevant to the current situation, it in no way helps the newbies choose a mayor or make any major decisions at the moment.
I applaud the effort though, and I agree with the majority of the ideas contained therein Show nested quote +My only worry about you in power kav is that your 3rd party play in insane 2 was so good that Im afraid you could be scum and be getting away with it here. Look at this wishy washy bullshit. You pepper, IN THE SAME POSTS, positions that Kav might be scum....OR MIGHT BE TOWN. And then you post this stuff: Show nested quote +This is the same experienced player that then last minute voteswings a mayoral vote and gets a known town analyzer killed. A town member who was posting helpfully to new players, as well as analyzing people. Like you were compeletely against Kav's lynch the whole entire time. Yeah, ok lol
I never said I was against kav's lynch, ever. Please stop putting words in my mouth, I agreed that kav looked scummy, but in retrospect you can't deny that his posts were helpful to newbies.
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Cubed, read the discussion between myself and chaoser in the previous page.
Its vastly superior to ignore both of them and have a vigi shoot coag, if he dosn't get shot we can just lynch him, if he does and flips red then yay! if he does get shot and lives, well then we have a confirmed townie scum have to shoot.
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On April 14 2011 02:49 CubEdIn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 02:32 GMarshal wrote:
Cubed, read the discussion between myself and chaoser in the previous page.
Its vastly superior to ignore both of them and have a vigi shoot coag, if he dosn't get shot we can just lynch him, if he does and flips red then yay! if he does get shot and lives, well then we have a confirmed townie scum have to shoot. Oh, I did, but you're completely dismissing the fact that he might ACTUALLY be a DT. Sure, I don't really buy it 100% either, but it's a possibility, and if we don't lynch coag then he won't have night protection (because your plan is ... don't protect either), which means that he'll die to an assassin (heck, they do have one free shot), why not take it? Sure, it makes sense that he's neither, but that's a bit off imo. So here's what I think: 1. We lynch Coag. 2. If he flips red, we start protecting the Assassin/DT 3. If he's DT, he'll confirm/fos someone each day. If he's not, he'll have to constantly use R1CH ability to stay alive, in which case.. he'll confirm/fos someone each day. The only other scenario would be that he's either town (in which case what he's doing is awfully, awfully dumb), or scum (in which case we trade coag for a scum, sorry coag, xoxo). Which is ok at this point in the game. Heck, he can even be Vigi-shot during the night if coag doesn't flip red. I don't see anyone who could prove to be a better lynch. Remember, we don't lynch for the flip, we lynch for information. The sooner we have the information, the better.
Sure theres a .001% possibility fw is a dt, but lynching coag proves nothing at all! even if coag flipped red, we still would have no idea whether fw got lucky/great analysis or if he is an actual DT, he has *lied* copiously, *nothing* he says can be believed. Also the assassin can only use the DT ability once, and only starting day 2.
Killing coag gives us no information, and I as a policy don't lynch for information, I lynch scum!
Is this not evident?
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Well, since I don't want to waste our lynch on coag I thought I would provide you something nice to work with.
GMarshal's Analysis of Dr.H
This originally started as a PbP but man, Dr.H posts in a volume to rival mine
On April 09 2011 17:31 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
lol lynch kavdragon
is the first non-troll post Dr.H makes besides stating that he does not talk at night.
Interesting to see how he is tunneling from the start
On April 10 2011 04:56 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
kavdragon is saying a lot of useless bullshit trying to appear protown and basically his posts are this:
words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words
obviously no mafia would say THIS much "pro-town" stuff that everyone already knows amirite ;o????
i'm not buying it. you did this same thing in pokemafia which i hosted
Kav was trying to help the newibes in the early game and as we had aready stated there was not much to discuss but generalities. Also notable that Dr.H calls on his experience as a host to try impress upon us how right he is. that same sentence written as "you did this same thing in pokemafia" would have made the same point, without pointing out how much of a "vet" you are
On April 10 2011 05:07 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 05:01 Kavdragon wrote:On April 10 2011 04:57 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On April 10 2011 03:15 GMarshal wrote:On April 10 2011 03:02 kitaman27 wrote:On April 10 2011 02:44 TranceStorm wrote:
Furthermore, since the pardoner/mayor knows who the bodyguards are, meaning that the mafia could hit those roles easier. This part gives the mafia more incentive to run as mayor than usual. The last thing they want is two town running around causing trouble, with no way to kill them. The fact that they are rewarded for running, but coming in second also gives them a nice bonus. The pardon ability is an awesome way to completely derail town focus when mafia is in a tough spot. I would feel real unwary having a pardoner around late game if I wasn't sure of his alignment. This means we should focus our attentions on people who run and on really analyzing the hell out of our mayor/pardoner. Also I think that the mayor's power is being understated, he has a triple vote, in the hands of scum that would be lethally dangerous, bringing lylo much, much closer than it should be. Personally I think we should only vote for players we think are probably town, because the idea of having one or both of those power roles in the hands of the mafia is pretty worrying. So yeah, let me state the obvious, make damn sure you are voting for pro town players, as these roles are pretty damn powerful. what happens if the mafia doesn't run Then we have a bunch of analysis that says "soandso" is town. Confirming townies is very useful as well. You seem to be working hard to put down my efforts, but the only thing I see you doing is encouraging spam, an putting down others. Why don't you put forth any of your ideas? because i dont feel the need to write paragraphs about useless shit saying basically: 1. the mayor is important! 2. the pardoner is also important3. be careful who you vote for! 4. mafia may or may not run for mayor! 5. we should pressure inactive people! this is all obvious stuff. no one has said anything of value yet and because the game hasn't even started I haven't taken the time to scrutinize the game setup and come up with a plan for how I'm going to play this game or where I think the town should go. but that doesn't mean i can't smell your "look at me and how townie i'm acting!" bs right away
more tunneling, oh joy, lets discard any value in night 0 discussion explaining to people how to play and put it down to trying to look pro-town
On April 10 2011 05:10 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
idk honestly if im mafia im thinking
"lets not run and then try to keep all the pressure on the people who ran for mayor for a few days while we wreak havoc."
even if a few lynches don't go that way, it's pretty easy to keep attention on the mayoral/pardoner candidates since they usually post a lot in the beginning and townies who post a lot are likely to contradict themselves at least once so imo the mayor powers are not nearly as strong as the power to manipulate the towns focus by any means necessary
that's just my take on it
Here, I'll translate, "I dont want any suspicion cast on me if I run" and "No way scum would run, lol"
right... the mafia team is just going to ignore the possibility of getting 3 more votes or the pardon in order to "keep attention on the mayor, pardoner" sure thing.
then he has a series of posts where he basically uses one liners to criticizes every word out of kavs mouth.
Then comes the assassin claim. Dr.H seems to be pretty happy to support him, as it "keeps the role out of mafia hands" I wont go into the discussion of the assassin again, but it *is* anti town to hand out the role to a third party out of fear
On April 10 2011 13:57 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 13:55 tnkted wrote:On April 10 2011 13:54 chaoser wrote:This is a semi-open setup. Roles and their abilities will be disclosed, however role counts will not. Roles below may or may not be a part of this setup. Touche. Still, I think not having a medic would be pretty insane. more than likely: 2 medics 2 dts 1 vig 2 vets 2 nosy neighbors
contributing without contributing, its easy to speculate on balance, watch "I bet there are 3 vigs, 3 vets, no medics and a dt" is this conformable? Does this help the town? No.
On April 10 2011 13:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 13:31 tnkted wrote:
Yeah we better make this clear:
when you vote, vote in both threads. that way we can see who voted for what.
not voting in this thread will be considered a scumtell, so be careful. no its not a scumtell ill vote in the vote thread im not gonna waste my time posting all my votes in here especially since i tend to switch votes a lot this is dumb. there will be a dedicated vote thread. if you want to know who votes for who, you can read that thread. less clutter here = better
do I even have to bother rebutting why allowing people to hide their voteswitches is bad? Oh wait this is the guy that benefited from people voting for him at the very last second with no in thread justification. never mind.
and then he tunnels on Kav , I'm noticing a trend, 1 get tunnel kav, 2 get the assassin elected 3 tunnel kav somemore
On April 10 2011 14:39 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
im gonna run because i can only trust myself
here is my "policy"
mayor:
-use my votes on whoever i think is scummiest not who the "town" tells me to vote for
-lynch kavdragon on day 1
pardoner:
-pardon whoever i think is getting lynched on a dumb bandwagon even if the rest of the town is pretty sure they are scum
that's it
also as far as the assassin game like i said we should post who we suspect of being an assassin so they dont kill townies but 90% of posts in this thread should be geared toward finding mafia so really i think this game should be kinda disregarded unless it becomes important later
i have a bad reputation of getting too much attention in games though but i came pretty close to nailing the entire scumteam in salem and in insane mafia so i think i'll just get better every game vote 4 me
I thought he was only going to run if he was mafia? Well lets deconstruction his campaign as well, I mean it can't be as bad as mine, right?
Let me sum it up "I'm going to do whatever the fuck I want" well then thank god he didn't land pardoner. Well I'm sure glad that a player who says he isn't going to be held accountable for his actions landed the mayor.
he then spends 2 pages arguing the meaning of FoS. His response to being told he was overly agressive over a small issue? "build a bridge and get over it" I applaud his building of town spirit. Wonderful work, *that* is how you encourage new players
On April 11 2011 02:14 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 01:28 Jackal58 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 11 2011 01:18 Barundar wrote:
Honestly Jackal, you want to leave our first lynch to be decided by a non-town player? We have a role in the pardoner that gives him the protection he needs to act as vigi for him, and pardoner is more of a mafia role than a town role anyways. He can have that, but mayor is too powerful to let a third party have.
I agree that it's great to have a non-scum player in office, but it's not irrelevant that Protactinum has a different win condition. For Protactinum to win, he needs to prolong the game untill he have killed all the other assassins. If town is too far ahead, it will be in his interest to slow us down, and vice verca when scum is ahead. Since he will work against us when we are ahead, he will not win the game for us, no matter how great an analyst he is. His hands are basically tied on the lynch. He votes for who town puts forth or he gets lynched. He is in a lylo on day 1. If it gets to the point where we are that far ahead that he's a detriment to town we no longer need him anyways so again he's in a lylo. He is forced into being pro town or losing. this is exactly what the mafia wants btw a mayor who they can manipulate, force his votes to go the way they want to get him lynched (waste of town KP on a useless role like assassin and also ridding town of mayor).
so being held accountable for your votes if you have three of them is being "manipulatable" right?
Why did people vote for someone who said that he wasn't going to take responsibility for his actions with a powerful role again?
On April 11 2011 03:49 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 03:47 Coagulation wrote:On April 11 2011 03:40 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
GMarshal are you going to lynch kavdragon/mib if you're elected? PLease do On April 11 2011 03:41 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
th emayor should not consider what the town thinks or wants. nevermind im not gonna vote for you STFU DOCH bite me
I dont think I need to comment on this, do I?
then again he did say "townies who post a lot are likely to contradict themselves at least once" so I suppose he is cleared
On April 11 2011 03:51 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 03:51 redFF wrote:
Yeah Doch seems to be posting a lot without really saying much, whilst being overly aggressive to people with little reasoning.
FOS: DoctorHelvetica rofl
these replies without answering the substance of an accusation always worry me, since its easy to say "lol" and not so easy to either justify your behavior or own up to your mistakes.
however his later attitude towards the assassin and his reaction to pandians claims agree with mine, which is positive.
On April 11 2011 05:12 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 05:11 Pandain wrote:On April 11 2011 05:09 Coagulation wrote:
WE ARE NOT AIMING TO KILL ASSASSINS
WE ARE AIMING TO KILL SCUM We're aiming to kill both. Why? Assasins have kp. Anything with a constant kp is bad for town as it increases the chance of civilian deaths. If Assasins fulfill they're role conditions that means those are 3 less people we have to worry about. wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong
His debating skills know no bounds. Seriously when a serious argument is presented this is *not* the appropriate reply.
On April 11 2011 05:14 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 05:13 Coagulation wrote:
Why are people fucking not understanding this?
I think this whole assassin debate is pretty much derailing us from hunting scum. Mafia are probably most inclined to support this assassin in mayor SHIT because #1 it doesnt endanger themselves and #2 they get the benefit of having town deal with fucking assassins all fucking game instead of IGNORING THEM LIKE WE SHOULD and hunting scum. Fuck Pandains prolly the fucking GF What kind of idiot town would claim DT DAY 1 ? WTF.
pandain is a special kind of idiot well at least we can be a duo of reason trying to push the town onto scumhunting doctorhelvetica/coagulation '11??
I'm going to assume this was a joke post, because otherwise I have to question Dr.H's sanity, and that would be bad.
On April 11 2011 05:27 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 05:26 chaoser wrote:On April 11 2011 05:19 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
yeah me and coagulation are the most reasonable right now Objection! Alternative GMarshal/Chaoser 2011! We'll win the game AND get your Chinese Princess Back! gmarshal is wishy washy and you supported protact i'm obviously the best choice also my behavior is clearly the most pro-town anyone can see this
my behavior is obviously pro town, "I will do whatever the fuck I want if I get the pardon", my behavior is obviously pro town, I think theres a disconnect here.
On April 11 2011 06:00 DoctorHelvetica wrote:This is the big tl;dr post where I explain all my thoughts I think I've done all the poking and prodding I can. We're in a sticky situation and we need to make the best of it. So I'll lay out my platform simply. - Protactinium should NOT be mayor. The mayor role is designed to be very helpful to either town/mafia depending on who gets it. Our goal is not to simply have non-scum as mayor, our goal is to have town as mayor. Why? More votes. Protactinium has no interest in who is lynched, he will simply vote the way the "town" wants him to so that he is not lynched himself. This is bad. Huh? Shouldn't the mayor use his votes the way the town wants?No, because the town is quite often wrong. Mafia will manipulate/split bandwagons and then try to influence the mayor to pad the lynch they want. The mayor should always vote for the person HE thinks is scum. The mayor should act autonomously and vote based on his own thoughts and instincts. An autonomous third party mayor is a terrible idea, an autonomous town-aligned mayor is not. - I'm okay with Protactinium being Pardoner. This will give him some protection and allow us to threaten him into using his DT check/kill power where we want it. The pardoner power is pretty insignificant compared to the mayoral power and I suppose we could make some use of him. As long as our focus is using proactinium to find scum NOT using him to find other assassins. - Pandain is stupid and bad. You should never roleclaim DT day 1 and he is essentially using his role to hold us hostage into voting for him. This makes perfect sense if he is godfather and it makes even more sense if he is on a scumteam with Protactinium. Unfortunately, DT is probably the most valuable town role and I really hate the idea of just letting him die. Pandain is a terrible scumhunter and is bad at almost every aspect of the game and the idea of him in a leadership position makes my skin crawl. I would be okay if he was pardoner and no one took him seriously/listened to him by accident. - This idea that you can't scumhunt on day 1 is retarded. That's my favorite bad point to make when I'm mafia. yeah the game is designed on the assumption that town mislynches on the first day. But we should all absolutely be focused on figuring out who is scum, who isn't. What is each persons motivation. WHAT ARE THEY TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH BY POSTING THIS. that's the question you should ask! Not: -what contradictions do they make (townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia) i'm gonna repeat that 100 times for emphasis: townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafiatownies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafiatownies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafiatownies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafiatownies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafiatownies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia Okay. These are scenarios I am somewhat comfortable with: Mayor/Pardoner: Myself/Protactinium Gmarshal/Protacinium Gmarshal/Pandain Scenarios I prefer: Myself/Pandain Myself/Coagulation Myself/Gmarshal Gmarshal/Myself Gmarshal/Pandain Pandain might be the DT. Give him a worthless role like pardoner and watch him closely. I don't want to throw the DT away or waste medics on someone like him. Who I feel comfortable lynching and why: Kavdragon - His posts after role PMs were sent were designed to do two things. To seem as pro-town and helpful as possible and to contribute nothing at all. Lots of obvious "advice" and redundant bullshit. When called out he becomes defensive and tries to turn the tables on me. Not good. However kavdragon is a useful player if town, this is a risky lynch choice but I have a strong scum read on him. mib - Same deal. Tries to "contribute" but says nothing at all. Regurgitates talking points from previously in the thread and has a bad excuse to explain why that is. He's a new player and mostly inactive so lynching him should be no big loss if he's town anyway. So that's my thoughts. My plan is to have myself as mayor, I will disregard everything the town says completely, and to have pandain as pardoner so if he is DT he doesn't die. If bodyguards start dying, lynch pandain. He's an idiot so it won't be long before he fucks up if he faked his roleclaim, so I feel pretty safe about that.
This one is juicy, lets dismantle it, point one about the assassin had already been made, time and time again, but its good he includes it here, I agree with him. His second post about electing an assassin to an anti-town role is downright bad if he didn't want the mayor to be in the hands of the assassin and wanted to avoid the assassin game entirly, then why is he proposing the assassin as a pardoner.
I will not be held accountable for my votes is a little less pro-town then point one, I understand the "I'll vote for who I feel is scum" thats the duty of every townie mayor or not, what worries me is that he is setting out the groundwork for covering for a pardon with "I said I would be autonomous so I autonomously pardoned the guy you were convinced was scum, because I can"
The fact that he would be ok with pandian in a protected position after his stupid claim and after having sustained that Pandian sucks makes me wtf.
Dr.H seems to not want people to look for contradictions, which is interesting, I agree that townies often change their mind, thats the issue with imperfect information, but blatant contradictions on core issues are a sure sign of scum.
"I will disregard everything the town says completely, and to have pandain as pardoner so if he is DT he doesn't die. "
we go from pandian is probably lying and should be ignored to pandian is ok as pardoner, also I'm *still* going to ignore anything the town says.
Also note how thought he refers to how "worthless" the pardoner role is, when in reality it is a strongly anti town role
On April 11 2011 07:08 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:02 OriginalName wrote:On April 11 2011 06:55 GMarshal wrote:
Fuck, I had to decide to check the thread before leaving
Kav, I think that your call that Dr.H is scum is flat out wrong, there's no way (in my mind) that the scum team would put out two vets like that day one, especially considering one of them is a really, really influential and powerful player. Still if you get mayor which of them do you think you would lynch?
Tbh I have a town read on Dr.H for his mindless aggression, it reminds me sort of coag, except perhaps more refined. Why not? Refuge in audacity has its uses. While I will state that if DrH is not scum Protact is the assassin. DrH: What happens if Kav turns ou town after hes lynched D1? Protact: Why should we trust you to use your shots for town instead of backstabbing us? if he's town then i admit i was wrong and then we move on? it's very rare that anyone is correct in 100% of their scumreads and I'm exaggerating my sureness to provoke reactions. I'm about 70% on kav in favor of him being mafia, but of course there is a chance he's town. nothing is really sure in mafia. I wouldn't be terribly shocked if I was wrong. I feel better about mib, i'd rather lynch him and get protact in as pardoner and have him use his check on kav.
already setting up the groundwork for "oops", and look, it *was* "oops"
On April 11 2011 07:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:52 Kavdragon wrote:On April 11 2011 07:50 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On April 11 2011 07:49 Kavdragon wrote:On April 11 2011 07:47 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On April 11 2011 07:39 Kavdragon wrote:On April 11 2011 07:36 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On April 11 2011 07:34 Kavdragon wrote:On April 11 2011 07:29 The_Roist wrote:
Other notes: My mafia.txt is filling up rather fast, you guys are kind of rude but it makes for an interesting game so I don't mind too much. but its maybe not the best first impression on real first timers... THIS DR.H. THIS is what I was talking about. I don't care if you have a plan. We are already looking at a huge inactives list. Thank god we have a few replacements, but for the love of the TLMafia community, stop being so negative! i'll kill your entire fucking family j/k I know that. I think I've done about as much damage as I can at this point so I'll slink into the shadows and try to play cool now. i like to shit it up on day 1 to see how people react so I get a better idea of where everyone really stands. The more unreasonable I get, the more unreasonable the mafia gets, but I think now is a good time to cut the act. Thanks! + Show Spoiler +I retract that if you continue I still think you're mafia by the way. This is by no means me kowtowing to you, but this aggressive behavior is no longer working in my favor and I'm sure the mafia have already caught on to what I'm trying to do. So you pressured me all that time, spammed that much, and still didn't get a read on me? W/e. If you're done with the agressive behavior, I'm done yelling at you for it. my read is mafia i had that read from the beginning i got some other reads yet that i need to consider more wholly later though, it wasn't fruitless Lol, sorry I meant the right read. Heh. that looks like I planned that now. w/e don't care. i don't think anyone will have the balls to lynch you day 1, even i don't, i'll wait until day 2 to make my case on you unless your tune changes
right... ok... again with this "see I wasn't 100% sure, but I was *interdependent*"
On April 11 2011 14:52 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 14:05 tnkted wrote:Ok I've been gone all day. Town. WTF. Where are all these emotional outbursts coming from? Almost all of the FoS's that have come out so far this game have been ridiculous, targeted at new players for not posting enough, or not reading properly, or acting like typical newbie players. DrH, some throwing accusations at people like they're candy. Read up, gather some information, and present it in a big large wall of text like everyone else does. Theres a reason we do it that way. Now, for newbies, you might not know who you should be listening to in this game if you're green (which you probably are since its your first game). You want to be listening to people with calm, levelheaded opinions, who have put a fair amount of thought and effort into their posts. You can tell these people by the amount that they post and the sheer quality of their posts. Spammers are generally not that helpful for analytic purposes. Here's my list of people that should be your role models, town or not town. This is how good mafia players behave in thread: Kita GM Protract ON Lanaia Kav myself ( ) and urashimakt is doing pretty good too, for a newbie. There are a few other players that are doing well, but those 7 are the ones you should pay attention to when they post. Keep in mind that you should be reading their stuff with an open mind; feel free to challenge them where you think they are acting scummy, but rather then throw out an FoS (which is a fairly serious, formal accusation in this forum and is currently being abused to great extent) simply point out their scummy play. If you want to post an FoS make sure you've done your research; big posts with lots of quotes and analysis are what we're after. Putting effort into your posts is what makes you town. My analysis on Tracestorm is incoming. this is almost artistically scummy throwout some people who have contributed basically nothing (On/Lanaia), pad Kav's shitty arguments, make a big "come on guys can we all just get along and play well???" post that doesn't serve any purpose or contribute any analysis anyway you're on my shitlist and hopefully everyone can see how ridiculous this post is i'll still be lynching originalname though
well, interesting thing with the ON lynch, huh? Also nice little accusation of tnkted, what did he flip again? Have you made a right call yet?
On April 12 2011 01:43 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 01:21 GMarshal wrote:
So you guys want to lynch ON for information? You do realize that that is absolutely awful play, right?
Think about it, this is DAY 1 people are flip flopping right and left, we are surrounded by new players, they behave erratically so any information that lynching ON "reveals" about them is worthless . Lynching ON proves nothing either way, about me or any other players. If you people want to lynch him because you think he is a red, then thats fine, but lynching for information day 1, with no clearly drawn lines, and not much to go on is terrible, terrible play.
Come on people, lets lynch scum, not townies!
This is a good point from Gmarshal. "Let's lynch for information" is something scum love to say, because really "information" is just a WIFOM scenario that they can push in whichever way they want. If ON turns up green/red that doesn't really give us that much relevant information. Mafia will often attack/accuse other mafia on day 1 and use confounding tactics to make sure they can not be discovered if a teammate is lynched. Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 22:55 tnkted wrote:On April 11 2011 22:06 redFF wrote:
If ON flips red it confirms basically everyone thought of as red so far as red. If he flips green(highly unlikely) Then it clears a shit ton of people and we have a few people who would look very red, myself included. I think ON is the lynch which would give us the most information, regardless of how he flips. Actually, Protract is the one that would give us the most information. ON is nowhere near a threat right now. Meanwhile, I am convinced that DrH is a horrible candidate for mayor. How many of the people that disagree with him has he targeted for a lynch? So far he's accused myself, Kav, Kita, and Potract of being scum. The only one he doesn't think is scum is GM and he's been taking Protract and other people's arguements to support that. He isn't running on a platform of substance, just one of accusing all the other candidates of scumming. And lynching ON won't clear up anything. Maybe he was just acting like he disagreed with you to prove that you're actually green when you're read? You have know idea exactly how devious the mafia can act in this game. Lynching ON won't prove anyone's greenness other than ONs. You need to be extremely careful with bandwagoning in this game. If nobody is disagreeing with you it means that mafia likes your idea, or is laying low because its late game and there are 6 people alive. Do not be sheep, newbies. I'd like to ask, what exactly is a platform of substance? It seems like your only goal here really is to discourage people from voting for me, even though you don't seem to think I'm scum. I have never accused Protactinium, you, or kita of being scum. Kavdragon/mib were the only two I made a real case for. Either you really misunderstood some things I said or you're putting words in my mouth to make me look bad. Which is it?
My Thoughts
OriginalName is still my top lynch candidate, but if I'm elected mayor I will re-read everybodies posting to make a decision. If I am elected and don't lynch OriginalName don't accuse me of "going back on my promises" or anything like that. I will lynch my top suspect no matter what, I will always vote for my top suspect, NO MATTER WHAT the "town" (a.k.a the mafia) wants me to do. But let's talk about this ON situation. If ON flips red, this is when you, the town aligned player, want to go through his posts. Who does he avoid talking to? Who does he defend? Does he ever attack/accuse someone in a way that seems fake? That's a good way to find potential teammates. From that list, go through all of their posts and try to analyse their behavior. Do they treat ON strangely? Are their posts scummy at all? AFTER YOU DO ALLLLLLLL OF THAT Go ahead and build a case. Otherwise keep your mouth shut. It does not "prove" Gmarshal is mafia or anyone else. If he flips green then it doesn't mean anything other than he played poorly, really. What it does mean that it is likely mafia aren't going to be outright opposing his lynch, maybe a couple will weakly, but by and large mafia will have no reason to try to stop him from being lynched. Keep that in mind, but don't run too far with that idea. If I'm offering any "substance" (whatever that means), it's a mayor who won't let the mafia pressure him into making bad decisions. I will analyse independently and vote based on my own conclusions, that's the safest way.
Oh goodie, another long post!
First of all he calls out my post as being good, which I have no comment on other than when Kav pointed out something as a good point Dr.H's reply was "no one cares"
I do agree with his question of "what is a plataform of substance?" I thought I had one, but apparently posting why you would make a good mayor is anti-town.
Oh look, he is already setting himself up to be able to lynch kav, nice to know he thought things out ahead of time. At least the town should have been able to figure out what was going to happen
Also his "thoughts" boil down to what I said earlier, lynching ON proves absolutely nothing, one way or another.
On April 12 2011 02:49 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I don't like the idea of a blue "list". Here is my advice:
Detective - Investigate the person you most suspect of being scum.
Medics - Protect the a person you believe to be town who you think might get hit (active scumhunters/people who hinted they might be blue)
Trackers - Track inactive players. If they do something, read their posts and try to determine if they are quiet blues or scum.
Watchers - Watch someone you believe to be town who you think might get hit.
I'm not going to put out a list of names, use your own judgment. Don't rely on what others tell you, mafia will try to make you waste your abilities.
I really dislike the direction GMarshal is taking right now. Vig Kitaman? Are you serious?
See, the part about kita makes sense, that was the reactions I was fishing for, both from kita and form the players around him. I find that Dr.H's reasoning for not using a blue list for argument on the basis that the mafia can mislead you to be wrong. The point of a blue list is to open discussion on the topic and increase the power of the blues, if the medic part of the list contains 6 people then maifa will likely try to hit outside of it, increasing the effectiveness of the medics (since the list effectively protected 6 people). This proved slightly flawed as the mafia shot into my list last night.
On April 12 2011 02:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Tunneling is not a bad thing. Tunneling is exactly how you should scumhunt. Focus down on one person, pressure them hard, force them to defend themselves until you're either more sure they are mafia or are satisfied. MiB's defense has neutered my suspicions slightly, but he's on my shitlist for sure.
theres tunneling and theres tunneling, sustained aggression is not necessarily bad, irrationally tunneling is.
On April 12 2011 07:39 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I'm going to lynch Kavdragon
with no attached explanation of why he goes from a ON lynch to a Kav lynch... interesting
On April 12 2011 08:12 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 08:07 DoctorHelvetica wrote:yeah im feeling really bad about redFF right now but what purpose doeshe really have to tunnel ON and m0nsterchef so hard if he's mafia. his actions don't really make sense from either alignment to me (but I assume everyone is good, my main error) but he's made a lot of points I agree with so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. IMO redFF would make a great DT check. Here's one of the few times I'll give advice for blues in this game. DETECTIVES FUCKING READ THIS i accidentally hit enter woops DETECTIVES FUCKING READ THIS INSTEAD:Let's say you investigate your target and you get a hit! They're scum! Well, is it time to roleclaim and reveal your results? Hell fucking no it is not. If you do that you will die and now have no worth in the late game.But DrH! I can just request constant medic protection!And now the medics are busy protecting you and not someone else who is gonna get hit. If the mafia know for sure who medics will protect, it doesn't reduce their KP. You WANT the mafia to hit those targets, you WANT them to guess wrongly about where medics are going. Ok so what do you do with your result? Well go look at their posts. Go to their profile, go to their posts, and read fucking eeeeeeeeeeeeeverything they've posted. Come up with a case. Now you have the confidence to call them out, use their posts as evidence and support. Now take your case and sit on it for a while. Because some good townie (or another DT) will probably FoS that person. This is a great jumping off point for you to introduce your case. If there is already suspicion, let that suspicion grow, add fuel to the fire, then introduce your stronger points (the fact that they are scum is made much more obvious in your posting now that you have your check for confidence) and make a strong case during this aggression to nail the lynch. If YOU cold start the bandwagon and are really the only one making all these great points, the mafia is thinking "Well I guess we found our DT" and you're dead. If you're lucky you get medic protection but if the mafia is sure you're the DT I wouldn't be surprised if they doublestacked. I don't suggest using code/hints/breadcrumbs because the mafia can decipher this juuuuuuuuust as easily as the town can. In fact, they can decipher it better because they are in contact with each other.
you know the generic advice he accused kav of posting. Yeah, this is an example of it.
On April 12 2011 13:30 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 12:57 Coagulation wrote:
LOL MAFIA PROCT LAST MINUTE BANDWAGON ISNT SO LAST MINUTE ANYMORE LOLZ Because he isn't mafia probably. Mafia has no real incentive, I don't think they want to see him as pardoner. His check could be really troublesome. I find it amusing that people think I'm scum simply because I pulled ahead after rationalizing my posting and making good points. So if the later switches from GMarshal to me scummy, aren't late switches from me to GMarshal scummy? Oh it isn't scummy. It's all WIFOM. People change their minds, peoples idea of best candidate will change. Let's focus scumhunting on how we actually catch scum: 1. Posting behavior 2. lynching scum -> hindsight analysis Please and thank you.
when people are switching votes off of GM because of a "mafia bandwagon" in the first 24 hours of day 1 thats ok, no need to comment. When people suddenly start electing the assassin at the last minute thats not suspicious at all.
And then he lynches Kav, after kav requests to be lynched...
On April 12 2011 14:15 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 14:11 Foolishness wrote:
If someone could find me a good picture of a facepalm I would be most grateful. The reward will include cookies. the reason i quit tl mafia is because of the two times me vs youngminii ended up in two townie deaths if that happens again i'll probably ragequit forever. i hate it when shit like this happens but I mean I guess it's the likely outcome. One of the bigger reasons I don't like the mayor position is it gives the mafia someone to blame for what is the most likely outcome anyway - lynching a townie on the first day. All we can do now is reevaluate whatever information we have. Playing the blame game isn't getting us anywhere. If your only reason for thinking I'm scum is I picked a non-mafia out of 40 people to lynch, then maybe you should keep it to yourself.
Oh, no dont berate me for mis-lynching, I might just ragequit! forever! Goes hand in hand with "dont hold me accountable" and it seems to work too.
On April 12 2011 14:16 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 14:14 OriginalName wrote:On April 12 2011 14:11 AirbladeOrange wrote:
Is anyone besides Dr. H actually surprised? Not in tge slightest Extreme Finger of Suspicion: DocterHelvetica have any other reasons other than i picked a wrong lynch on day 1 like happens in 99% of games anyway? might as well get that out of the way before people make the mistake of paying attention to you
any fingers of suspicion on me must be silenced! Although I agree ON failed to provide reasons
On April 12 2011 14:25 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 14:22 OriginalName wrote:On April 12 2011 14:17 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On April 12 2011 14:16 OriginalName wrote:On April 12 2011 14:14 Protactinium wrote:On April 12 2011 14:10 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Oh well, I don't know what the fuck he was thinking with his posting. Time to reevaluate and move on. This game is built on the assumption that a townie is lynched day 1 but this is a big confidence loss for me.
But we're even more screwed if I get too upset about this. It is what it is.
Dont worry man there'll be some good surprises for us. Let's get this game started. And I still believe you are innocent because mafia would never have dared attempt that in the first place. Anyone who suspects him for that flip should heavily consider that. Thats total WIFOM Mafia could expect that and go for a really ballsy move to kill off a very pro-town player WIFOM works both ways though. So it doesn't help your argument any. In fact all behavioral analysis is on some level WIFOM. I hate overuse of WIFOM because it discourages people from thinking. i hate WIFOM as much as the next guy but really when you kill somebody who made an arguement against you it doesnt help you much. Also im sorry for my conduct earlier Im kinda biased towards kav from Insane 2 and figured the two styles just didnt line up for me to consider him scum but I still shouldnt of raged like that. Im still on the fence about you but really dont go balls to the walls on what can be valuble town assets as mayor next time. I'm actually glad I didn't second guess myself. I was wrong but I've spent my entire "scumhunting" career never sticking to my guns and this kind of confidence is going to make me dangerous when I tighten my analysis up, I think. Since I know I'm town I'm incredibly wary of anyone who goes out of their way to defame me. That is kind of the lynchpin of why I dislike Barundar's posting in this game. I sort of use it as a jjumping point, because I know the mafia want me out of this game.
"I'm incredibly wary of anyone who goes out of their way to defame me." = I reserve the right to OMGUS anyone who questions my poor decisions.
TL:DR: Dr.H got himself elected on a funky vote switch, killed a town analyst and continues to support an assassin. He is supporting a know liar rather than doing what is reasonable and ran for mayor with the worst possible role to get in office, which is *also* unprovable until he dies.
Yeah, Dr.H is scum
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On April 14 2011 03:15 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +Killing coag gives us no information, and I as a policy don't lynch for information, I lynch scum! If lynching coag gives no information, how does that contradict with your policy stance of not lynching for information? Show nested quote +Sure theres a .001% possibility fw is a dt, but lynching coag proves nothing at all! even if coag flipped red, we still would have no idea whether fw got lucky/great analysis or if he is an actual DT, he has *lied* copiously, *nothing* he says can be believed. More like 70% DT in my books based on what I'm reading in thread but besides that, are you saying that coag flipping red and us lynching him is NOT a good thing? You know, I've done a decent amount of analyzing people's posts and I remember you were all for that in Insane 2 and not getting caught up in plans and whatnot. Why don't we let town decide and you can go analyze someone. I really want to see some.
I did, see above. Also you are arguing that if we lynch coag it gives us information I am disagreeing on the lynch on the basis of two things.
1.) No, it does not
and
2.) I dont do the "lynching for information" thing.
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On April 14 2011 03:21 Lemonwalrus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 03:19 tnkted wrote:I would want to sub in as well but unfortunately I already know who the scum is, so that would be kind of unfair.  Not telling though! Can ghosts leave breadcrumbs?
Only in insane mafia 2
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On April 14 2011 03:21 Barundar wrote:
If you want to make an analysis cant you just [spoiler ] the quotes please? So freaking hard to read :/
sorry, would you like me to repost it for you?
here you go, its in the spoiler! ^_^
+ Show Spoiler +Well, since I don't want to waste our lynch on coag I thought I would provide you something juicy to work with. GMarshals Analysis of Dr.H This originally started as a PbP but man, Dr.H posts in a volume to rival mine + Show Spoiler +On April 09 2011 17:31 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
lol lynch kavdragon is the first non-troll post Dr.H makes besides stating that he does not talk at night. Interesting to see how he is tunneling from the start + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2011 04:56 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
kavdragon is saying a lot of useless bullshit trying to appear protown and basically his posts are this:
words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words
obviously no mafia would say THIS much "pro-town" stuff that everyone already knows amirite ;o????
i'm not buying it. you did this same thing in pokemafia which i hosted Kav was trying to help the newibes in the early game and as we had aready stated there was not much to discuss but generalities. Also notable that Dr.H calls on his experience as a host to try impress upon us how right he is. that same sentence written as "you did this same thing in pokemafia" would have made the same point, without pointing out how much of a "vet" you are + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2011 05:07 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 05:01 Kavdragon wrote:On April 10 2011 04:57 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On April 10 2011 03:15 GMarshal wrote:On April 10 2011 03:02 kitaman27 wrote:On April 10 2011 02:44 TranceStorm wrote:
Furthermore, since the pardoner/mayor knows who the bodyguards are, meaning that the mafia could hit those roles easier. This part gives the mafia more incentive to run as mayor than usual. The last thing they want is two town running around causing trouble, with no way to kill them. The fact that they are rewarded for running, but coming in second also gives them a nice bonus. The pardon ability is an awesome way to completely derail town focus when mafia is in a tough spot. I would feel real unwary having a pardoner around late game if I wasn't sure of his alignment. This means we should focus our attentions on people who run and on really analyzing the hell out of our mayor/pardoner. Also I think that the mayor's power is being understated, he has a triple vote, in the hands of scum that would be lethally dangerous, bringing lylo much, much closer than it should be. Personally I think we should only vote for players we think are probably town, because the idea of having one or both of those power roles in the hands of the mafia is pretty worrying. So yeah, let me state the obvious, make damn sure you are voting for pro town players, as these roles are pretty damn powerful. what happens if the mafia doesn't run Then we have a bunch of analysis that says "soandso" is town. Confirming townies is very useful as well. You seem to be working hard to put down my efforts, but the only thing I see you doing is encouraging spam, an putting down others. Why don't you put forth any of your ideas? because i dont feel the need to write paragraphs about useless shit saying basically: 1. the mayor is important! 2. the pardoner is also important3. be careful who you vote for! 4. mafia may or may not run for mayor! 5. we should pressure inactive people! this is all obvious stuff. no one has said anything of value yet and because the game hasn't even started I haven't taken the time to scrutinize the game setup and come up with a plan for how I'm going to play this game or where I think the town should go. but that doesn't mean i can't smell your "look at me and how townie i'm acting!" bs right away more tunneling, oh joy, lets discard any value in night 0 discussion explaining to people how to play and put it down to trying to look pro-town + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2011 05:10 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
idk honestly if im mafia im thinking
"lets not run and then try to keep all the pressure on the people who ran for mayor for a few days while we wreak havoc."
even if a few lynches don't go that way, it's pretty easy to keep attention on the mayoral/pardoner candidates since they usually post a lot in the beginning and townies who post a lot are likely to contradict themselves at least once so imo the mayor powers are not nearly as strong as the power to manipulate the towns focus by any means necessary
that's just my take on it Here, I'll translate, "I dont want any suspicion cast on me if I run" and "No way scum would run, lol" right... the mafia team is just going to ignore the possibility of getting 3 more votes or the pardon in order to "keep attention on the mayor, pardoner" sure thing. then he has a series of posts where he basically uses one liners to criticizes every word out of kavs mouth. Then comes the assassin claim. Dr.H seems to be pretty happy to support him, as it "keeps the role out of mafia hands" I wont go into the discussion of the assassin again, but it *is* anti town to hand out the role to a third party out of fear + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2011 13:57 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 13:55 tnkted wrote:On April 10 2011 13:54 chaoser wrote:This is a semi-open setup. Roles and their abilities will be disclosed, however role counts will not. Roles below may or may not be a part of this setup. Touche. Still, I think not having a medic would be pretty insane. more than likely: 2 medics 2 dts 1 vig 2 vets 2 nosy neighbors contributing without contributing, its easy to speculate on balance, watch "I bet there are 3 vigs, 3 vets, no medics and a dt" is this conformable? Does this help the town? No. + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2011 13:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 13:31 tnkted wrote:
Yeah we better make this clear:
when you vote, vote in both threads. that way we can see who voted for what.
not voting in this thread will be considered a scumtell, so be careful. no its not a scumtell ill vote in the vote thread im not gonna waste my time posting all my votes in here especially since i tend to switch votes a lot this is dumb. there will be a dedicated vote thread. if you want to know who votes for who, you can read that thread. less clutter here = better do I even have to bother rebutting why allowing people to hide their voteswitches is bad? Oh wait this is the guy that benefited from people voting for him at the very last second with no in thread justification. never mind. and then he tunnels on Kav , I'm noticing a trend, 1 get tunnel kav, 2 get the assassin elected 3 tunnel kav somemore On April 10 2011 14:39 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
im gonna run because i can only trust myself
here is my "policy"
mayor:
-use my votes on whoever i think is scummiest not who the "town" tells me to vote for
-lynch kavdragon on day 1
pardoner:
-pardon whoever i think is getting lynched on a dumb bandwagon even if the rest of the town is pretty sure they are scum
that's it
also as far as the assassin game like i said we should post who we suspect of being an assassin so they dont kill townies but 90% of posts in this thread should be geared toward finding mafia so really i think this game should be kinda disregarded unless it becomes important later
i have a bad reputation of getting too much attention in games though but i came pretty close to nailing the entire scumteam in salem and in insane mafia so i think i'll just get better every game vote 4 me I thought he was only going to run if he was mafia? Well lets deconstruction his campaign as well, I mean it can't be as bad as mine, right? Let me sum it up "I'm going to do whatever the fuck I want" well then thank god he didn't land pardoner. Well I'm sure glad that a player who says he isn't going to be held accountable for his actions landed the mayor. he then spends 2 pages arguing the meaning of FoS. His response to being told he was overly agressive over a small issue? "build a bridge and get over it" I applaud his building of town spirit. Wonderful work, *that* is how you encourage new players + Show Spoiler +On April 11 2011 02:14 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 01:28 Jackal58 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 11 2011 01:18 Barundar wrote:
Honestly Jackal, you want to leave our first lynch to be decided by a non-town player? We have a role in the pardoner that gives him the protection he needs to act as vigi for him, and pardoner is more of a mafia role than a town role anyways. He can have that, but mayor is too powerful to let a third party have.
I agree that it's great to have a non-scum player in office, but it's not irrelevant that Protactinum has a different win condition. For Protactinum to win, he needs to prolong the game untill he have killed all the other assassins. If town is too far ahead, it will be in his interest to slow us down, and vice verca when scum is ahead. Since he will work against us when we are ahead, he will not win the game for us, no matter how great an analyst he is. His hands are basically tied on the lynch. He votes for who town puts forth or he gets lynched. He is in a lylo on day 1. If it gets to the point where we are that far ahead that he's a detriment to town we no longer need him anyways so again he's in a lylo. He is forced into being pro town or losing. this is exactly what the mafia wants btw a mayor who they can manipulate, force his votes to go the way they want to get him lynched (waste of town KP on a useless role like assassin and also ridding town of mayor). so being held accountable for your votes if you have three of them is being "manipulatable" right? Why did people vote for someone who said that he wasn't going to take responsibility for his actions with a powerful role again? + Show Spoiler +On April 11 2011 03:49 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 03:47 Coagulation wrote:On April 11 2011 03:40 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
GMarshal are you going to lynch kavdragon/mib if you're elected? PLease do On April 11 2011 03:41 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
th emayor should not consider what the town thinks or wants. nevermind im not gonna vote for you STFU DOCH bite me I dont think I need to comment on this, do I? then again he did say "townies who post a lot are likely to contradict themselves at least once" so I suppose he is cleared + Show Spoiler +On April 11 2011 03:51 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 03:51 redFF wrote:
Yeah Doch seems to be posting a lot without really saying much, whilst being overly aggressive to people with little reasoning.
FOS: DoctorHelvetica rofl these replies without answering the substance of an accusation always worry me, since its easy to say "lol" and not so easy to either justify your behavior or own up to your mistakes. however his later attitude towards the assassin and his reaction to pandians claims agree with mine, which is positive. + Show Spoiler +On April 11 2011 05:12 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 05:11 Pandain wrote:On April 11 2011 05:09 Coagulation wrote:
WE ARE NOT AIMING TO KILL ASSASSINS
WE ARE AIMING TO KILL SCUM We're aiming to kill both. Why? Assasins have kp. Anything with a constant kp is bad for town as it increases the chance of civilian deaths. If Assasins fulfill they're role conditions that means those are 3 less people we have to worry about. wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong His debating skills know no bounds. Seriously when a serious argument is presented this is *not* the appropriate reply. + Show Spoiler +On April 11 2011 05:14 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 05:13 Coagulation wrote:
Why are people fucking not understanding this?
I think this whole assassin debate is pretty much derailing us from hunting scum. Mafia are probably most inclined to support this assassin in mayor SHIT because #1 it doesnt endanger themselves and #2 they get the benefit of having town deal with fucking assassins all fucking game instead of IGNORING THEM LIKE WE SHOULD and hunting scum. Fuck Pandains prolly the fucking GF What kind of idiot town would claim DT DAY 1 ? WTF.
pandain is a special kind of idiot well at least we can be a duo of reason trying to push the town onto scumhunting doctorhelvetica/coagulation '11?? I'm going to assume this was a joke post, because otherwise I have to question Dr.H's sanity, and that would be bad. + Show Spoiler +On April 11 2011 05:27 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 05:26 chaoser wrote:On April 11 2011 05:19 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
yeah me and coagulation are the most reasonable right now Objection! Alternative GMarshal/Chaoser 2011! We'll win the game AND get your Chinese Princess Back! gmarshal is wishy washy and you supported protact i'm obviously the best choice also my behavior is clearly the most pro-town anyone can see this my behavior is obviously pro town, "I will do whatever the fuck I want if I get the pardon", my behavior is obviously pro town, I think theres a disconnect here. On April 11 2011 06:00 DoctorHelvetica wrote:This is the big tl;dr post where I explain all my thoughts I think I've done all the poking and prodding I can. We're in a sticky situation and we need to make the best of it. So I'll lay out my platform simply. - Protactinium should NOT be mayor. The mayor role is designed to be very helpful to either town/mafia depending on who gets it. Our goal is not to simply have non-scum as mayor, our goal is to have town as mayor. Why? More votes. Protactinium has no interest in who is lynched, he will simply vote the way the "town" wants him to so that he is not lynched himself. This is bad. Huh? Shouldn't the mayor use his votes the way the town wants?No, because the town is quite often wrong. Mafia will manipulate/split bandwagons and then try to influence the mayor to pad the lynch they want. The mayor should always vote for the person HE thinks is scum. The mayor should act autonomously and vote based on his own thoughts and instincts. An autonomous third party mayor is a terrible idea, an autonomous town-aligned mayor is not. - I'm okay with Protactinium being Pardoner. This will give him some protection and allow us to threaten him into using his DT check/kill power where we want it. The pardoner power is pretty insignificant compared to the mayoral power and I suppose we could make some use of him. As long as our focus is using proactinium to find scum NOT using him to find other assassins. - Pandain is stupid and bad. You should never roleclaim DT day 1 and he is essentially using his role to hold us hostage into voting for him. This makes perfect sense if he is godfather and it makes even more sense if he is on a scumteam with Protactinium. Unfortunately, DT is probably the most valuable town role and I really hate the idea of just letting him die. Pandain is a terrible scumhunter and is bad at almost every aspect of the game and the idea of him in a leadership position makes my skin crawl. I would be okay if he was pardoner and no one took him seriously/listened to him by accident. - This idea that you can't scumhunt on day 1 is retarded. That's my favorite bad point to make when I'm mafia. yeah the game is designed on the assumption that town mislynches on the first day. But we should all absolutely be focused on figuring out who is scum, who isn't. What is each persons motivation. WHAT ARE THEY TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH BY POSTING THIS. that's the question you should ask! Not: -what contradictions do they make (townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia) i'm gonna repeat that 100 times for emphasis: townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafiatownies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafiatownies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia townies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafiatownies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafiatownies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafiatownies contradict themselves as much if not more than mafia Okay. These are scenarios I am somewhat comfortable with: Mayor/Pardoner: Myself/Protactinium Gmarshal/Protacinium Gmarshal/Pandain Scenarios I prefer: Myself/Pandain Myself/Coagulation Myself/Gmarshal Gmarshal/Myself Gmarshal/Pandain Pandain might be the DT. Give him a worthless role like pardoner and watch him closely. I don't want to throw the DT away or waste medics on someone like him. Who I feel comfortable lynching and why: Kavdragon - His posts after role PMs were sent were designed to do two things. To seem as pro-town and helpful as possible and to contribute nothing at all. Lots of obvious "advice" and redundant bullshit. When called out he becomes defensive and tries to turn the tables on me. Not good. However kavdragon is a useful player if town, this is a risky lynch choice but I have a strong scum read on him. mib - Same deal. Tries to "contribute" but says nothing at all. Regurgitates talking points from previously in the thread and has a bad excuse to explain why that is. He's a new player and mostly inactive so lynching him should be no big loss if he's town anyway. So that's my thoughts. My plan is to have myself as mayor, I will disregard everything the town says completely, and to have pandain as pardoner so if he is DT he doesn't die. If bodyguards start dying, lynch pandain. He's an idiot so it won't be long before he fucks up if he faked his roleclaim, so I feel pretty safe about that. This one is juicy, lets dismantle it, point one about the assassin had already been made, time and time again, but its good he includes it here, I agree with him. His second post about electing an assassin to an anti-town role is downright bad if he didn't want the mayor to be in the hands of the assassin and wanted to avoid the assassin game entirly, then why is he proposing the assassin as a pardoner. I will not be held accountable for my votes is a little less pro-town then point one, I understand the "I'll vote for who I feel is scum" thats the duty of every townie mayor or not, what worries me is that he is setting out the groundwork for covering for a pardon with "I said I would be autonomous so I autonomously pardoned the guy you were convinced was scum, because I can" The fact that he would be ok with pandian in a protected position after his stupid claim and after having sustained that Pandian sucks makes me wtf. Dr.H seems to not want people to look for contradictions, which is interesting, I agree that townies often change their mind, thats the issue with imperfect information, but blatant contradictions on core issues are a sure sign of scum. "I will disregard everything the town says completely, and to have pandain as pardoner so if he is DT he doesn't die. " we go from pandian is probably lying and should be ignored to pandian is ok as pardoner, also I'm *still* going to ignore anything the town says. Also note how thought he refers to how "worthless" the pardoner role is, when in reality it is a strongly anti town role + Show Spoiler +On April 11 2011 07:08 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:02 OriginalName wrote:On April 11 2011 06:55 GMarshal wrote:
Fuck, I had to decide to check the thread before leaving
Kav, I think that your call that Dr.H is scum is flat out wrong, there's no way (in my mind) that the scum team would put out two vets like that day one, especially considering one of them is a really, really influential and powerful player. Still if you get mayor which of them do you think you would lynch?
Tbh I have a town read on Dr.H for his mindless aggression, it reminds me sort of coag, except perhaps more refined. Why not? Refuge in audacity has its uses. While I will state that if DrH is not scum Protact is the assassin. DrH: What happens if Kav turns ou town after hes lynched D1? Protact: Why should we trust you to use your shots for town instead of backstabbing us? if he's town then i admit i was wrong and then we move on? it's very rare that anyone is correct in 100% of their scumreads and I'm exaggerating my sureness to provoke reactions. I'm about 70% on kav in favor of him being mafia, but of course there is a chance he's town. nothing is really sure in mafia. I wouldn't be terribly shocked if I was wrong. I feel better about mib, i'd rather lynch him and get protact in as pardoner and have him use his check on kav. already setting up the groundwork for "oops", and look, it *was* "oops" + Show Spoiler +On April 11 2011 07:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:52 Kavdragon wrote:On April 11 2011 07:50 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On April 11 2011 07:49 Kavdragon wrote:On April 11 2011 07:47 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On April 11 2011 07:39 Kavdragon wrote:On April 11 2011 07:36 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On April 11 2011 07:34 Kavdragon wrote:On April 11 2011 07:29 The_Roist wrote:
Other notes: My mafia.txt is filling up rather fast, you guys are kind of rude but it makes for an interesting game so I don't mind too much. but its maybe not the best first impression on real first timers... THIS DR.H. THIS is what I was talking about. I don't care if you have a plan. We are already looking at a huge inactives list. Thank god we have a few replacements, but for the love of the TLMafia community, stop being so negative! i'll kill your entire fucking family j/k I know that. I think I've done about as much damage as I can at this point so I'll slink into the shadows and try to play cool now. i like to shit it up on day 1 to see how people react so I get a better idea of where everyone really stands. The more unreasonable I get, the more unreasonable the mafia gets, but I think now is a good time to cut the act. Thanks! + Show Spoiler +I retract that if you continue I still think you're mafia by the way. This is by no means me kowtowing to you, but this aggressive behavior is no longer working in my favor and I'm sure the mafia have already caught on to what I'm trying to do. So you pressured me all that time, spammed that much, and still didn't get a read on me? W/e. If you're done with the agressive behavior, I'm done yelling at you for it. my read is mafia i had that read from the beginning i got some other reads yet that i need to consider more wholly later though, it wasn't fruitless Lol, sorry I meant the right read. Heh. that looks like I planned that now. w/e don't care. i don't think anyone will have the balls to lynch you day 1, even i don't, i'll wait until day 2 to make my case on you unless your tune changes right... ok... again with this "see I wasn't 100% sure, but I was *interdependent*" + Show Spoiler +On April 11 2011 14:52 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 14:05 tnkted wrote:Ok I've been gone all day. Town. WTF. Where are all these emotional outbursts coming from? Almost all of the FoS's that have come out so far this game have been ridiculous, targeted at new players for not posting enough, or not reading properly, or acting like typical newbie players. DrH, some throwing accusations at people like they're candy. Read up, gather some information, and present it in a big large wall of text like everyone else does. Theres a reason we do it that way. Now, for newbies, you might not know who you should be listening to in this game if you're green (which you probably are since its your first game). You want to be listening to people with calm, levelheaded opinions, who have put a fair amount of thought and effort into their posts. You can tell these people by the amount that they post and the sheer quality of their posts. Spammers are generally not that helpful for analytic purposes. Here's my list of people that should be your role models, town or not town. This is how good mafia players behave in thread: Kita GM Protract ON Lanaia Kav myself ( ) and urashimakt is doing pretty good too, for a newbie. There are a few other players that are doing well, but those 7 are the ones you should pay attention to when they post. Keep in mind that you should be reading their stuff with an open mind; feel free to challenge them where you think they are acting scummy, but rather then throw out an FoS (which is a fairly serious, formal accusation in this forum and is currently being abused to great extent) simply point out their scummy play. If you want to post an FoS make sure you've done your research; big posts with lots of quotes and analysis are what we're after. Putting effort into your posts is what makes you town. My analysis on Tracestorm is incoming. this is almost artistically scummy throwout some people who have contributed basically nothing (On/Lanaia), pad Kav's shitty arguments, make a big "come on guys can we all just get along and play well???" post that doesn't serve any purpose or contribute any analysis anyway you're on my shitlist and hopefully everyone can see how ridiculous this post is i'll still be lynching originalname though well, interesting thing with the ON lynch, huh? Also nice little accusation of tnkted, what did he flip again? Have you made a right call yet? + Show Spoiler +On April 12 2011 01:43 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 01:21 GMarshal wrote:
So you guys want to lynch ON for information? You do realize that that is absolutely awful play, right?
Think about it, this is DAY 1 people are flip flopping right and left, we are surrounded by new players, they behave erratically so any information that lynching ON "reveals" about them is worthless . Lynching ON proves nothing either way, about me or any other players. If you people want to lynch him because you think he is a red, then thats fine, but lynching for information day 1, with no clearly drawn lines, and not much to go on is terrible, terrible play.
Come on people, lets lynch scum, not townies!
This is a good point from Gmarshal. "Let's lynch for information" is something scum love to say, because really "information" is just a WIFOM scenario that they can push in whichever way they want. If ON turns up green/red that doesn't really give us that much relevant information. Mafia will often attack/accuse other mafia on day 1 and use confounding tactics to make sure they can not be discovered if a teammate is lynched. + Show Spoiler +On April 11 2011 22:55 tnkted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 22:06 redFF wrote:
If ON flips red it confirms basically everyone thought of as red so far as red. If he flips green(highly unlikely) Then it clears a shit ton of people and we have a few people who would look very red, myself included. I think ON is the lynch which would give us the most information, regardless of how he flips.
Actually, Protract is the one that would give us the most information. ON is nowhere near a threat right now. Meanwhile, I am convinced that DrH is a horrible candidate for mayor. How many of the people that disagree with him has he targeted for a lynch? So far he's accused myself, Kav, Kita, and Potract of being scum. The only one he doesn't think is scum is GM and he's been taking Protract and other people's arguements to support that. He isn't running on a platform of substance, just one of accusing all the other candidates of scumming.
And lynching ON won't clear up anything. Maybe he was just acting like he disagreed with you to prove that you're actually green when you're read? You have know idea exactly how devious the mafia can act in this game. Lynching ON won't prove anyone's greenness other than ONs.
You need to be extremely careful with bandwagoning in this game. If nobody is disagreeing with you it means that mafia likes your idea, or is laying low because its late game and there are 6 people alive.
Do not be sheep, newbies. I'd like to ask, what exactly is a platform of substance? It seems like your only goal here really is to discourage people from voting for me, even though you don't seem to think I'm scum. I have never accused Protactinium, you, or kita of being scum. Kavdragon/mib were the only two I made a real case for. Either you really misunderstood some things I said or you're putting words in my mouth to make me look bad. Which is it?
My Thoughts
OriginalName is still my top lynch candidate, but if I'm elected mayor I will re-read everybodies posting to make a decision. If I am elected and don't lynch OriginalName don't accuse me of "going back on my promises" or anything like that. I will lynch my top suspect no matter what, I will always vote for my top suspect, NO MATTER WHAT the "town" (a.k.a the mafia) wants me to do. But let's talk about this ON situation. If ON flips red, this is when you, the town aligned player, want to go through his posts. Who does he avoid talking to? Who does he defend? Does he ever attack/accuse someone in a way that seems fake? That's a good way to find potential teammates. From that list, go through all of their posts and try to analyse their behavior. Do they treat ON strangely? Are their posts scummy at all? AFTER YOU DO ALLLLLLLL OF THAT Go ahead and build a case. Otherwise keep your mouth shut. It does not "prove" Gmarshal is mafia or anyone else. If he flips green then it doesn't mean anything other than he played poorly, really. What it does mean that it is likely mafia aren't going to be outright opposing his lynch, maybe a couple will weakly, but by and large mafia will have no reason to try to stop him from being lynched. Keep that in mind, but don't run too far with that idea. If I'm offering any "substance" (whatever that means), it's a mayor who won't let the mafia pressure him into making bad decisions. I will analyse independently and vote based on my own conclusions, that's the safest way. Oh goodie, another long post! First of all he calls out my post as being good, which I have no comment on other than when Kav pointed out something as a good point Dr.H's reply was "no one cares" I do agree with his question of "what is a plataform of substance?" I thought I had one, but apparently posting why you would make a good mayor is anti-town. Oh look, he is already setting himself up to be able to lynch kav, nice to know he thought things out ahead of time. At least the town should have been able to figure out what was going to happen Also his "thoughts" boil down to what I said earlier, lynching ON proves absolutely nothing, one way or another. + Show Spoiler +On April 12 2011 02:49 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I don't like the idea of a blue "list". Here is my advice:
Detective - Investigate the person you most suspect of being scum.
Medics - Protect the a person you believe to be town who you think might get hit (active scumhunters/people who hinted they might be blue)
Trackers - Track inactive players. If they do something, read their posts and try to determine if they are quiet blues or scum.
Watchers - Watch someone you believe to be town who you think might get hit.
I'm not going to put out a list of names, use your own judgment. Don't rely on what others tell you, mafia will try to make you waste your abilities.
I really dislike the direction GMarshal is taking right now. Vig Kitaman? Are you serious? See, the part about kita makes sense, that was the reactions I was fishing for, both from kita and form the players around him. I find that Dr.H's reasoning for not using a blue list for argument on the basis that the mafia can mislead you to be wrong. The point of a blue list is to open discussion on the topic and increase the power of the blues, if the medic part of the list contains 6 people then maifa will likely try to hit outside of it, increasing the effectiveness of the medics (since the list effectively protected 6 people). This proved slightly flawed as the mafia shot into my list last night. + Show Spoiler +On April 12 2011 02:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Tunneling is not a bad thing. Tunneling is exactly how you should scumhunt. Focus down on one person, pressure them hard, force them to defend themselves until you're either more sure they are mafia or are satisfied. MiB's defense has neutered my suspicions slightly, but he's on my shitlist for sure. theres tunneling and theres tunneling, sustained aggression is not necessarily bad, irrationally tunneling is. + Show Spoiler +On April 12 2011 07:39 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I'm going to lynch Kavdragon with no attached explanation of why he goes from a ON lynch to a Kav lynch... interesting + Show Spoiler +On April 12 2011 08:12 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 08:07 DoctorHelvetica wrote:yeah im feeling really bad about redFF right now but what purpose doeshe really have to tunnel ON and m0nsterchef so hard if he's mafia. his actions don't really make sense from either alignment to me (but I assume everyone is good, my main error) but he's made a lot of points I agree with so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. IMO redFF would make a great DT check. Here's one of the few times I'll give advice for blues in this game. DETECTIVES FUCKING READ THIS i accidentally hit enter woops DETECTIVES FUCKING READ THIS INSTEAD:Let's say you investigate your target and you get a hit! They're scum! Well, is it time to roleclaim and reveal your results? Hell fucking no it is not. If you do that you will die and now have no worth in the late game.But DrH! I can just request constant medic protection!And now the medics are busy protecting you and not someone else who is gonna get hit. If the mafia know for sure who medics will protect, it doesn't reduce their KP. You WANT the mafia to hit those targets, you WANT them to guess wrongly about where medics are going. Ok so what do you do with your result? Well go look at their posts. Go to their profile, go to their posts, and read fucking eeeeeeeeeeeeeverything they've posted. Come up with a case. Now you have the confidence to call them out, use their posts as evidence and support. Now take your case and sit on it for a while. Because some good townie (or another DT) will probably FoS that person. This is a great jumping off point for you to introduce your case. If there is already suspicion, let that suspicion grow, add fuel to the fire, then introduce your stronger points (the fact that they are scum is made much more obvious in your posting now that you have your check for confidence) and make a strong case during this aggression to nail the lynch. If YOU cold start the bandwagon and are really the only one making all these great points, the mafia is thinking "Well I guess we found our DT" and you're dead. If you're lucky you get medic protection but if the mafia is sure you're the DT I wouldn't be surprised if they doublestacked. I don't suggest using code/hints/breadcrumbs because the mafia can decipher this juuuuuuuuust as easily as the town can. In fact, they can decipher it better because they are in contact with each other. you know the generic advice he accused kav of posting. Yeah, this is an example of it. + Show Spoiler +On April 12 2011 13:30 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 12:57 Coagulation wrote:
LOL MAFIA PROCT LAST MINUTE BANDWAGON ISNT SO LAST MINUTE ANYMORE LOLZ Because he isn't mafia probably. Mafia has no real incentive, I don't think they want to see him as pardoner. His check could be really troublesome. I find it amusing that people think I'm scum simply because I pulled ahead after rationalizing my posting and making good points. So if the later switches from GMarshal to me scummy, aren't late switches from me to GMarshal scummy? Oh it isn't scummy. It's all WIFOM. People change their minds, peoples idea of best candidate will change. Let's focus scumhunting on how we actually catch scum: 1. Posting behavior 2. lynching scum -> hindsight analysis Please and thank you. when people are switching votes off of GM because of a "mafia bandwagon" in the first 24 hours of day 1 thats ok, no need to comment. When people suddenly start electing the assassin at the last minute thats not suspicious at all. And then he lynches Kav, after kav requests to be lynched... + Show Spoiler +On April 12 2011 14:15 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 14:11 Foolishness wrote:
If someone could find me a good picture of a facepalm I would be most grateful. The reward will include cookies. the reason i quit tl mafia is because of the two times me vs youngminii ended up in two townie deaths if that happens again i'll probably ragequit forever. i hate it when shit like this happens but I mean I guess it's the likely outcome. One of the bigger reasons I don't like the mayor position is it gives the mafia someone to blame for what is the most likely outcome anyway - lynching a townie on the first day. All we can do now is reevaluate whatever information we have. Playing the blame game isn't getting us anywhere. If your only reason for thinking I'm scum is I picked a non-mafia out of 40 people to lynch, then maybe you should keep it to yourself. Oh, no dont berate me for mis-lynching, I might just ragequit! forever! Goes hand in hand with "dont hold me accountable" and it seems to work too. + Show Spoiler +On April 12 2011 14:16 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 14:14 OriginalName wrote:On April 12 2011 14:11 AirbladeOrange wrote:
Is anyone besides Dr. H actually surprised? Not in tge slightest Extreme Finger of Suspicion: DocterHelvetica have any other reasons other than i picked a wrong lynch on day 1 like happens in 99% of games anyway? might as well get that out of the way before people make the mistake of paying attention to you any fingers of suspicion on me must be silenced! Although I agree ON failed to provide reasons + Show Spoiler +On April 12 2011 14:25 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 14:22 OriginalName wrote:On April 12 2011 14:17 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On April 12 2011 14:16 OriginalName wrote:On April 12 2011 14:14 Protactinium wrote:On April 12 2011 14:10 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Oh well, I don't know what the fuck he was thinking with his posting. Time to reevaluate and move on. This game is built on the assumption that a townie is lynched day 1 but this is a big confidence loss for me.
But we're even more screwed if I get too upset about this. It is what it is.
Dont worry man there'll be some good surprises for us. Let's get this game started. And I still believe you are innocent because mafia would never have dared attempt that in the first place. Anyone who suspects him for that flip should heavily consider that. Thats total WIFOM Mafia could expect that and go for a really ballsy move to kill off a very pro-town player WIFOM works both ways though. So it doesn't help your argument any. In fact all behavioral analysis is on some level WIFOM. I hate overuse of WIFOM because it discourages people from thinking. i hate WIFOM as much as the next guy but really when you kill somebody who made an arguement against you it doesnt help you much. Also im sorry for my conduct earlier Im kinda biased towards kav from Insane 2 and figured the two styles just didnt line up for me to consider him scum but I still shouldnt of raged like that. Im still on the fence about you but really dont go balls to the walls on what can be valuble town assets as mayor next time. I'm actually glad I didn't second guess myself. I was wrong but I've spent my entire "scumhunting" career never sticking to my guns and this kind of confidence is going to make me dangerous when I tighten my analysis up, I think. Since I know I'm town I'm incredibly wary of anyone who goes out of their way to defame me. That is kind of the lynchpin of why I dislike Barundar's posting in this game. I sort of use it as a jjumping point, because I know the mafia want me out of this game. "I'm incredibly wary of anyone who goes out of their way to defame me." = I reserve the right to OMGUS anyone who questions my poor decisions. TL:DR: Dr.H got himself elected on a funky vote switch, killed a town analyst and continues to support an assassin. He is supporting a know liar rather than doing what is reasonable and ran for mayor with the worst possible role to get in office, which is *also* unprovable untill he dies. Yeah, Dr.H is scum.
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On April 14 2011 07:46 The_Roist wrote:
1. GMarshal pardons coag.
Not happening. Period. As long as I hold the pardon I will not use it.
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On April 14 2011 07:44 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I disagree hugely with a large part of your analysis on Rean, I'll talk about that later with you.
Out of that list who do you suspect?
Barundar
Coagulation
GMarshal
RedFF
ilovejonn
are all on my shitlist.
Lovely list, care to attach reasons to it, or are you once again basing this on your gut?
Also please reply to my analysis. After three hours of work and going through all your posts I think it deserves at least an acknowledgment
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On April 14 2011 08:06 M0nsterChef wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 07:45 redFF wrote:On April 14 2011 07:38 M0nsterChef wrote:
If we lynch coagulation and he flips green, then do we automatically lynch FW?
Also: which people do you guys think deserve dt/ tracker checks? Why do you ask, are u dt/tracker? How about you post your opinions on anything for once. Do you trust Flamewheel? Do you think we should lynch coag? What do you think of the huge post i made trying to prove to other people you are scum??? You haven't made one post talking about your stance on any issues, come on!!! THIS GUY IS FUCKING SCUM I'm not scum.
Wonderful defense, I love how you indexed it and everything so I could easily refernce the different points.
Theres a well bodied accusation against you out there. Please try to defend yourself better than this.
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On April 14 2011 08:12 M0nsterChef wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 08:10 GMarshal wrote:On April 14 2011 08:06 M0nsterChef wrote:On April 14 2011 07:45 redFF wrote:On April 14 2011 07:38 M0nsterChef wrote:
If we lynch coagulation and he flips green, then do we automatically lynch FW?
Also: which people do you guys think deserve dt/ tracker checks? Why do you ask, are u dt/tracker? How about you post your opinions on anything for once. Do you trust Flamewheel? Do you think we should lynch coag? What do you think of the huge post i made trying to prove to other people you are scum??? You haven't made one post talking about your stance on any issues, come on!!! THIS GUY IS FUCKING SCUM I'm not scum. Wonderful defense, I love how you indexed it and everything so I could easily refernce the different points. Theres a well bodied accusation against you out there. Please try to defend yourself better than this. I'm a tracker. I tracked RedFF and he didn't go anywhere.
/facepalm
/facepalm
/facepalm
Word cannot describe how foolish this claim was.
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Thanks for reminding me to look at the kills jackal, I remember I thought it was something important to do (some vet mentioned it after insane 2, I forget who), and then day came and I woke up to the whole Assassin claiming DT mess.
Anyway, my take on the kills, I'm going back and looking at every post by this person to see why they might have been killed. Mafia will often off those who start to suspect them to draw attention away.
So, one by one now
darmousseh: Thinks I am town, thinks Dr.H is town, thinks Kav is scum, almost no relevant posts
tnkted: FoS on TranceStorm, Defends ON based on the same stuff I said, Thinks I'm town, Defends MiB
CubEdIn: had all of *three* posts before his death... yeah makes no sense to me. at least he was restored to us!
Pandain: I can only assume that the shit with his DT claim worried the mafia enough to shoot him, although this kill makes the least sense of all, in my opinion at least. Pandian didn't have any credibility or any posts outside of his DT claim
conclusion: is the mafia team retarded? or just slow on the uptake? The missed all the good analysts and people with thread presence and went after people who weren't doing much. While im glad the missed all the people posting alot of analysis, I have to suspect that they don't enjoy a very strong leadership.
Either that or they consciously chose to avoid people on my medic list, (well except for tnkted) which would point to the medic lists being a good idea.
A common trait is that all these people (Except pandian) thought I was town at one point or another, which is noteworthy, although it proves nothing.
Also Dr.H waiting on your reply to me ^_^
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On April 14 2011 09:00 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 08:57 GMarshal wrote:
Thanks for reminding me to look at the kills jackal, I remember I thought it was something important to do (some vet mentioned it after insane 2, I forget who), and then day came and I woke up to the whole Assassin claiming DT mess.
Anyway, my take on the kills, I'm going back and looking at every post by this person to see why they might have been killed. Mafia will often off those who start to suspect them to draw attention away.
So, one by one now
darmousseh: Thinks I am town, thinks Dr.H is town, thinks Kav is scum, almost no relevant posts
tnkted: FoS on TranceStorm, Defends ON based on the same stuff I said, Thinks I'm town, Defends MiB
CubEdIn: had all of *three* posts before his death... yeah makes no sense to me. at least he was restored to us!
Pandain: I can only assume that the shit with his DT claim worried the mafia enough to shoot him, although this kill makes the least sense of all, in my opinion at least. Pandian didn't have any credibility or any posts outside of his DT claim
conclusion: is the mafia team retarded? or just slow on the uptake? The missed all the good analysts and people with thread presence and went after people who weren't doing much. While im glad the missed all the people posting alot of analysis, I have to suspect that they don't enjoy a very strong leadership.
Either that or they consciously chose to avoid people on my medic list, (well except for tnkted) which would point to the medic lists being a good idea.
A common trait is that all these people (Except pandian) thought I was town at one point or another, which is noteworthy, although it proves nothing.
Also Dr.H waiting on your reply to me ^_^ I hope you're comfortable waiting quite a while. I scanned it and saw mostly bad point. I don't intend to have a back and forth with you. I'll tell you why you're misguided once and leave it at that unless you have specific questions.
Well, thats one way to defend oneself I guess, refuse to argue.
Ok, tell me why I'm "misguided" if it doesn't satisfy me I'll keep bothering you
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LSB, chaoser is referring to this analysis
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On April 14 2011 09:16 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 09:07 GMarshal wrote:On April 14 2011 09:00 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On April 14 2011 08:57 GMarshal wrote:
Thanks for reminding me to look at the kills jackal, I remember I thought it was something important to do (some vet mentioned it after insane 2, I forget who), and then day came and I woke up to the whole Assassin claiming DT mess.
Anyway, my take on the kills, I'm going back and looking at every post by this person to see why they might have been killed. Mafia will often off those who start to suspect them to draw attention away.
So, one by one now
darmousseh: Thinks I am town, thinks Dr.H is town, thinks Kav is scum, almost no relevant posts
tnkted: FoS on TranceStorm, Defends ON based on the same stuff I said, Thinks I'm town, Defends MiB
CubEdIn: had all of *three* posts before his death... yeah makes no sense to me. at least he was restored to us!
Pandain: I can only assume that the shit with his DT claim worried the mafia enough to shoot him, although this kill makes the least sense of all, in my opinion at least. Pandian didn't have any credibility or any posts outside of his DT claim
conclusion: is the mafia team retarded? or just slow on the uptake? The missed all the good analysts and people with thread presence and went after people who weren't doing much. While im glad the missed all the people posting alot of analysis, I have to suspect that they don't enjoy a very strong leadership.
Either that or they consciously chose to avoid people on my medic list, (well except for tnkted) which would point to the medic lists being a good idea.
A common trait is that all these people (Except pandian) thought I was town at one point or another, which is noteworthy, although it proves nothing.
Also Dr.H waiting on your reply to me ^_^ I hope you're comfortable waiting quite a while. I scanned it and saw mostly bad point. I don't intend to have a back and forth with you. I'll tell you why you're misguided once and leave it at that unless you have specific questions. Well, thats one way to defend oneself I guess, refuse to argue. Ok, tell me why I'm "misguided" if it doesn't satisfy me I'll keep bothering you No, I'm saying I will respond to your post just not anytime very soon because I am too busy to make a long drawn out post right this very minute. I'm saying that once I defend myself, I've defended myself. I don't want to have a big argument with you, it's just noise. People can look at what you said and what I said and decide for themselves what makes sense.
I can agree to that. Although if I think any part of your defense is weak, I will call you out on it ^_^
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On April 14 2011 09:26 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 08:57 GMarshal wrote:
conclusion: is the mafia team retarded? or just slow on the uptake? The missed all the good analysts and people with thread presence and went after people who weren't doing much. While im glad the missed all the people posting alot of analysis, I have to suspect that they don't enjoy a very strong leadership.
This bit was particularly interesting. The only reason I can see for being openly rude to the mafia team is in trying to endear yourself to the town. A townie could have reason to do this, sure, but I find it would probably come more naturally to someone who felt obligated. It's also interesting because, as night fell, you came out with a pretty specific list on who you wanted blues to go to work on. When no one really responded to it, you attempted to prompt responses to see whether other people were in agreement. I felt that was really anti-town because it would help mafia know who to avoid wasting KP on or getting caught killing/drugging, and who to hit: the "less important" individuals. I think it might be worth noting.
Blue lists are pro-town, they have been pro town since time immemorial
let me break down why
1.) Medic lists increase the efficiency of medics, lets say for the sake of discussion the town has 1 medic, and I make a list with six targets for medic protection, this makes the mafia more hesitant to hit any of the six, since its more likely that there is a medic protecting them. That list singlehandedly multiplied the efficiency of the medic by six. If I make the mafia hesitate to hit a good player even a little then the list has served its purpose
2.) DT lists put pressure on people, and give something to analyze later in the game. Mafia especially inexperienced mafia panic when they are afraid they will be DTed, which can cause them to have to post more/attempt to appear pro-town to dodge the check.
3.) With all the new/inexperienced players around they need some guidance, I mean look at M0nster claiming tracker, if he is and he followed RedFF then he clearly should have followed my advice. Mafia probably would not have sent out a player under such suspicion to make a kill.
4.) When I inevitably die, you can look over my list of people to be dted, and people to be mediced and say "huh, these are the people GM was suspicious of, perhaps we ought to look at them"
that is why blue lists are good. Frankly I'm happy the mafia hit less valuable players, its nice to not need to worry about Pandian claiming jack of all trades or something, darm was under heavy suspicion by chaoser, which could have led to a mislynch and Cubed had all of 4 or so posts. so yes I think the mafia team is retarded for its hits.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/vTMqM.jpg)
