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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
This would get us raped by the role reverser, and is really a scummy idea unvote; ##Vote: GMarshal did you not read the part about it being only for analysis? There will be no roleclaims in those circles, unlike you not all players feel the urge to announce their blue status to make themselves targets for mafia. Are you tired or are you playing stupid intentionally? | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On February 23 2011 14:09 gryffindor wrote: Oh, so now you have to dip into Ad Hominem Go ahead and crossvote with me, mafia I'm onto you You are playing completely differently than I saw you as town No, I'm playing different than when you saw me as a DT in a no flip game, its a completely different scenario, also I don't think I'm playing that different, but it is a different scenario. You completely misinterpreted what I said about cells, I restated what i said about cells several times so if you read my posts you should have understood what the intention behind the cells was now I have a question to ask you: what was the purpose of claiming vet? Now mafia won't hit you neglecting your usefulness as a hit absorber, also requesting claims is a scum tell. What plan are you going to propose next, perhaps a nice mass claim to make it easy on mafia? You are setting off every alarm on my scumdar, my only defense of you is that I dont think mafia would play this badly | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On February 23 2011 19:21 ohN wrote: 'Just finished catching up My thoughts: Cells are a good idea but GMarshal giving us predetermined groups that he thinks we should work with is pretty scummy. They weren't just like 1-3, 4-6 either, he moved them around to his liking. Not a good candidate for day1 lynch because I don't feel that that alone is enough to incriminate him but definitely FoS on him. I dont see how people think + Show Spoiler + On February 23 2011 12:40 chaoser wrote: Ok, so like Gmarshal said, we shouldn't depend on blues this game. Especially since RoL specifically said this game was to punish us for what happened in Salam. At the same thing, I don't think the mafia powers are all THAT powerful. Let them frame away, that's one less death to worry about. PMs are allowed but PLEASE don't just give out crazy info in them (roleclaim, etc.). The point of town is not to have 1 leader controlling everything but small circles that are separated so that if one goes down, the others can still operate. Let's all work together and not let a few players handle all the work (which always seems to happen). This means contributing pleaseee. Him noting that mafia isn't that powerful is something anybody could point out. Role reversal has huge potential but only if mafia has a confirmed blue. They still have to give up an entire kp to use it so they will not be open to using it without being absolutely sure. Role reversal on a townie does nothing except waste a kp. I'll probably end up voting for someone who hasn't posted anything useful or that guy who thought annul was inactive(lol). If you want feel free to RNG the groups, I just made it so each group had at least one veteran player so that new players could get good feedback, if you want you could slide one of the columns up or down a random number to change the groups around also On February 23 2011 17:20 gryffindor wrote: Easily. It leads to the sharing of information, which the mafia need in this setup to properly use their abilities of role reversing the town into submission, as opposed to straight up kill power. If they know you are a Veteran, they can make you a PGO We don't need cells, we have claiming If you want scumhunting, do it yourself The general plan for a town in a whisper/PM setup is 1) Wait on a confirm 2) Massclaim to the confirmed 3) Profit I have issues with this post of your gryffindor, 1 it looks suspiciously like the plan that ended up with town getting raped in salem, 2 what benfit do you get from a mass claim when the DTs can be easily fooled? All the other roles don't require any kind of exposure as Vigi and Hatters can use their own discretion and medics should have clear cut choices. What does mass claiming to a "confirmed" (you still haven't set out a mechanism to confirm a townie) do for them other than expose them to getting hit by mafia? Also I agree that if you want scumhunting you should do it yourself, but like many other things it benefits from peer review, again this is partially to stimulate activity as in PM games newer players often feel left out of the backstage conversations and post less for that reason, its extremely frustrating in that situation. Also assuming the setup is 5-7 mafia they still have 3-4 kill points which is average for a 30 person game, this means that they don't need to use their role reversing powers successfully to win, they just need to slaughter the town, if they can do that by using role reversal then it will be faster, but ultimately they don't have to. TBH I think you are town, I just think your plan would cost us the game if we were to follow it | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On February 23 2011 15:23 gryffindor wrote: with 30, i doubt there are 8 5-6 is much more likely, with 6 being more likely, unless they start with roles (which I doubt) due to the mechanics 5 with an SK I would believe would be balanced as well, but i'm seeing 6 and 2.5-3kp, or something like "you may not kill 3 people" as 3 kp is a bit much right now we will learn soon enough. It is also possible they get to pick to be permanent, or nightly. I'm not quite sure on the mechanic. Lets assume it is permanent, and they pick a GF and a role reverser they'd still have 1.5kp which would round up to 2 afaik The best thing to do is to not come out if you're a hatter, for sure If you're a cop, I wouldn't come out unless you have a guilty, or are pressured I wouldn't ever claim as medic, unless someone you protected and saved is up for lynch Veteran is OK to claim, many setups have bulletproofs claiming first Vigilante is OK to claim TOMORROW if you claim who you are going to kill - Don't claim today, as you can't kill tonight I'm going to address this piece by piece ok? On February 23 2011 15:23 gryffindor wrote: with 30, i doubt there are 8 5-6 is much more likely, with 6 being more likely, unless they start with roles (which I doubt) due to the mechanics 5 with an SK I would believe would be balanced as well, but i'm seeing 6 and 2.5-3kp, or something like "you may not kill 3 people" as 3 kp is a bit much right now I agree 5-6 seems reasonable and generally scum dont get roles, at least in my experience, however this isn't that relevant. Also 3 kp would be reasonable especially considering how the mechanics of this game work On February 23 2011 15:23 gryffindor wrote: we will learn soon enough. It is also possible they get to pick to be permanent, or nightly. I'm not quite sure on the mechanic. Lets assume it is permanent, and they pick a GF and a role reverser they'd still have 1.5kp which would round up to 2 afaik you completely misunderstood the OP. Here is what happens, night 1 mafia get to choose a GF (I'm assuming one right now for explanation purposes), this does not cost them a KP, rather as long as the GF is alive they have 1 kp +.5 for every other mafia member alive (Assuming 5 others, that would be 3.5kp). These KP can be expended as usual to murder people, if they choose however they can sacrifice .5 of a kp to use certain powers and 1 kp to role reverse, in this setup its actually as efficient for them to go ahead an just shoot people as it is to reverse them, save in a few circumstances. Does this make sense? if we assume mafia is not going to use any of their powers the first night then that means 3-4 people will die tonight, barring medic saves and vets. On February 23 2011 15:23 gryffindor wrote: The best thing to do is to not come out if you're a hatter, for sure If you're a cop, I wouldn't come out unless you have a guilty, or are pressured I wouldn't ever claim as medic, unless someone you protected and saved is up for lynch Veteran is OK to claim, many setups have bulletproofs claiming first Vigilante is OK to claim TOMORROW if you claim who you are going to kill - Don't claim today, as you can't kill tonight The best thing to do if you are a blue is NOT TO CLAIM. Claiming makes you a target, vets should NOT claim as if they don't and appear pro town then they attract mafia shots and make them waste kp which is their job. Medics should never claim, Vigis can claim before they fire I suppose but since mafia also controls KP it would be easy to fake. Detectives should probably only claim if they check someone who isn't in the spotlight and get scum, since frames and covers make it easy for scum to fool them into killing town. (Actually I'm almost a proponent of lynching the DT first then the alleged scum, as this way you can check if the DT is actually a DT or a mafia trying to pull a fast one, we'll debate it if the topic ever comes up). Hatters should not claim and should be cautious with their bomb placement. generally DO NOT CLAIM TO ANYONE, claiming makes you a target, if you are an useful role then this is bad | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
So answer me this, what benefit do blues get out of claiming to confirmed townies? how can you guarantee to me that someone is a townie? (vig's aren't sure due to mafia controlling KP, medic protected people I might trust more but all it takes are two mafia willing to stick their neck out to get a nice list of all the blues in the game following your plan. I'll say it again, DO NOT CLAIM. PMs are to be used for information gathering and analysis discussion, to poke and prod and force mafia to slip up. Also "this is how you play" is not a good explanation of why its a good idea, while I gave plenty of reasons why it is a poor one. since people seem to be dissatisfied with my sorting I made new groups these are simply 1,2,3 then 4,5,6 etc. No one is obliged to use them, but for new players especially it helps to have people to bounce ideas off. It also leads to people being more pressured to post (does this make you people more happy now? Is it clear that this isn't some dastardly mafia plan to control the flow of ideas?) 1.) Coagulation LSB Barundar 2.) CubEdIn Jackal58 Kenpachi 3.) darmousseh annul gryffindor 4.) GMarshal Beneather icemac 5.) OriginalName , JBright ,seRapH 6.) ohN ,astroorion, Foolishness 7.) Gofarman ,Conversion ,kitaman27 8.) kevconsim ,ICanFlyLow ,Mr. Wiggles 9.) chaoser LunarDestiny Ser Aspi 10.) deconduo why LastArgument | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On February 23 2011 23:48 gryffindor wrote: I love discussing the possible setups with you, but it is really giving you an easy way out of actually scumhunting, so lets direct the power roles less and actually try to scumhunt, ok? This I can agree with, although I think we are both somewhat responsible for going off on blue directing. | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
##Vote why | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
This is an issue how? I could see it if my PM read something like "hey I'm a vigi, tell me your role, NOW!" but this is just asking for opinions | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
No I dont want read isolated, but people aren't posting them in the thread anyway, I may as well ask, I encourage people to go ahead and post them but by asking I'm forcing people to at least think about it, and if I see what I perceive as a scum tell or even a really good analysis then I'll tell the person to post it in the thread, or I'll post it myself. However by keeping those reads "isolated" I avoid the typical scum tactic of restating someone elses opinion in other words (e.g. If I say I think Quatol is scum for A, B and C, it usualy turns into 4-5 people saying "yeah, yeah" and scum "contributing" by saying "well Quatol is scum for B, C and A") So ON, who are your scum reads since you insist so much that all interaction should take place in the thread? | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On February 24 2011 01:53 deconduo wrote: My issue wasn't that you sent me a PM, it was that you and gryff sent me an almost identical one within a couple hours of each other. This coupled with the fact that the two of you have been going back and forth without actually saying much makes me FOS you. Well hypothetically if we were scum wouldn't we have coordinated that better? Anyway as I said I've been PM alot of people to get their opinions so I'm not that surprised that I happened to overlap with someone | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On February 24 2011 02:11 Jackal58 wrote: Also as easy for 2 scum or more to edit and post PMs to kill town While I appreciate the sentiment, I don't think that's an issue right now, even if that did happen, when the townie flipped green we would immediately go after the people who posted the PM | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On February 24 2011 02:18 Jackal58 wrote: I understand that. But if we get in that habit scum will use it to kill us at endgame. Better not doing it at all. Ok, I can see that, I really didn't consider the possibility in an endgame scenario | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On February 24 2011 06:12 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Detectives return the ROLE of a player. Assuming that mafia is not covered and the townie is not framed it will return "mafia" and "townie" respectively. so basically the framer defeats both Cops and Detectives, wonderful, now that this has been cleared up allow me to state that DTs are semi worthless then and should go after people not in the spotlight, as those results will be the most suspect | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On February 24 2011 06:23 deconduo wrote: That lessens the power of the DT but they are still nowhere near useless. -They will can verify other blues -They still return the right alignment if role reversed -Mafia are forced to waste KP if they want to Cover/Frame Alright useless was a wrong choice, however I don't want people just going out and claiming DT just because they got red on a check on someone controversial, there has to be more substance to it, e.g. scummy posting associated with it, checked twice and got the same result, something like that Point 1 did not occur to me, great catch, although blues can still be framed Point 2 I dont quite get what you mean, can you explain it a little more Point 3 is the reason DTs should try to avoid claiming, to keep scum on their toes and force the expenditure of kps | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On February 24 2011 06:29 annul wrote: also hi. am out of class now why arent we killing chaoser or GM? im gonna go ##vote chaoser now myself. Yep the brilliance of going after some of the most active and contributing players the first day! I guess seeing what bandwagons form will provide us with good information | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On February 24 2011 06:32 CubEdIn wrote: When does voting end? I got home a couple of minutes ago and I'm too tired to think, so I wanna vote in the morning after I get some time to properly go through the thread, and not bandwagon randomly. I am all achy, excuse my ignorance.  Game started yesterday night so the vote is tomorrow at 03:00 GMT (+00:00) | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On February 24 2011 06:42 annul wrote: actually in fact, the only way you can claim "ive been really scummy so far" is if you saw my play last night, and if you did, then you know i already explained that vote. interesting. Actually I agree with deconduo, can you point to a single useful contribution you have made? As a matter of fact have you done anything but clamor for hanging me and chaoser? Also does anyone else get the feeling that there is a large number of lurkers/inactives right now? I think I'm going to go poke them with the PM stick. | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + uh has this game started? i dont see a day 1 post or even a role PM ok, we can discount this post + Show Spoiler + okay hi peeps vote chaoser. that post reeks of redness. p.s. still no role PM! Ok, two things throwing around FoS without justification is a big no-no, if you think something is scummy give a reason, I won't comment about role PM timings as I do believe it is against the rules, still no way to call this a contribution at all + Show Spoiler + also where is the voting thread? ok + Show Spoiler + nobody in this game should trust gryffindor whatsoever. i read orgah and i have NO IDEA how he didnt die like 5 days before he did also, he's a smurf and if you read this forum you should already know who he is ;\ I agree I have no idea why he didn't die earlier in Orgah, however that is neither here nor there, although I will agree about not trusting him, too bad annul is going to essentially agree with everything Gryf says + Show Spoiler + it reeks of red because he is like "hey so theres weak powers in this game lol" which can only be known if he is a red, since if he was green he cant make that blanket claim and if he was a blue, he'd even be less inclined to make that claim the only way he can do that is if he is red and he sees the red team has weak or no powers finally a justification of his FoS on chooser, lets analyze it shall we? so essentially because chaoser thinks that mafia powers aren't that powerful (and cost for cost they may not be) this means he must be scum, faulty logic at best. Also the powers are in the OP, so no need for him to be red to make comments on them, all in all its a really weak reason to FoS someone + Show Spoiler + yeah that would be... foolish YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA spam, lovely, although it did get a small grin from me + Show Spoiler + what? that post makes no sense. like, i dont mean the logic, i mean the grammar (though the logic probably sucks too) I don't know what he is referring to, and I dislike the snarky comment, also not a contribution + Show Spoiler + Meme in response to my cells idea well it was a funny picture, but hardly a contribution + Show Spoiler + same reason you knew the mafia was weak? repeating bad logic does not make it into reality + Show Spoiler + pretty sure its better for people to post things in the thread -- much easier to catch red slips that way. if people only post in these mini town circles, then people are probably more inclined psychologically to trust their town circle and not consider them red, etc. actually a decent argument! +1 to his contribution count! Still I've said and emphasized that PMs are a tool to be used for scumhunting and that the purpose of the circles is to promote activity, and not to trust anyone still I like to see that annul is at least thinking + Show Spoiler + (/snip) (Me asking what the purpose of claiming vet is) wifom one word response that fails to really address the question, still though gryffindor can at least rest easy that he will not be killed, not because he is a vet but because he is disrupting town + Show Spoiler + I'M A VET TOO I BROKE THE DAM ...ok...moving on + Show Spoiler + but for real lets kill chaoser and GM the level of depth to this argument is breathtaking, I do wish it came with an index so I could properly format my response to each of his well made points + Show Spoiler + (/snip RoLs first clarification about DTs) mafia and townie are not roles, they are alignments... I thought RoL made sense, still I guess having things clarified is never a bad thing, lets call it .5 of a contribution + Show Spoiler + also hi. am out of class now why arent we killing chaoser or GM? im gonna go ##vote chaoser now myself. hi! when voting please provide reasons, otherwise I might think you are just trying to get people lynched for no reason, we wouldn't want that, now would we? + Show Spoiler + (/snip chaoser asking for a vote justification) i already did, you should probably read the entire thread I addressed your "reasoning" already, now do me a favor and try harder, also if someone asks its not that hard to go back and quote your post + Show Spoiler + actually in fact, the only way you can claim "ive been really scummy so far" is if you saw my play last night, and if you did, then you know i already explained that vote. interesting. what? color me confused. what vote? guess what? spamming useless one liners and not contributing is scummy! + Show Spoiler + (/snip me sarcastically saying that its a good idea to lynch chaoser and I) its brilliant when you post the dumbest shit possible yeah harmful activity isnt exempt on day 1 so, please go over in detail what "the dumbest shit possible" is. Maybe if I had suggested a mass claim or perhaps the formation of a circle of confirmed blues rather than independent scum hunting teams that would have made you happy? please tell me what harmful posts I've made, I really want to know so I can rectify my play in the future. I'll say it one more time; do not make unsupported statements and expect me to take them at all seriously contribution count= 1.5 (with me being really generous with what constitutes a contribution, really more like .75) post count = 18 verdict = either aggressive scum or bad townie If his posts continue to be this poor then we may have no choice but to hang him | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On February 24 2011 10:22 icemac wrote: Also, I just want to say that these cell things is either big balls move by mafia or the workings of bad play. What is it with you people and unsupported statements, how is it bad play? please explain While I'm at it what is your opinion on my analysis of annul? also what do you think of gryffindors alternate plan ? Who do you think is a good lynch target? | ||
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