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On January 22 2011 16:53 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 16:51 aidnai wrote:
Damn it, I had no idea politician could buy votes more than once. My bad, I'll make that clear next time in the OP v_v Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 16:53 aidnai wrote:Well played Jimbo, GG. Damn it damn it damn it we had him too...  Yea Jimbo played one hell of an SK game. He NEVER used his Politician power the entire game which was amazing patience. Your end game analysis was really wrong though. Jimbo was right - If he is an SK Vet or Town Vet lynching him gets you no where. Really you're just giving the SK another night to shoot. You won't get any information from wasting that lynch. With 5 (4) players and 48 hours if you can't decide then what will another 48 hours with no Town Night Actions do? However, there WAS a way out. And this is one of the very few times I'd ever say a townie should do this - Kenpachi get himself lynched. This way you get TWO flips in one day as town. Kenpachi gets flipped innocent and if he doesn't want to die you might have your SK. If he's not SK he gets lynched and shoots the Scummiest person on the wagon when he flips Godfather - that being whoever you guys convince him it is. The only hiccup in this plan is that all of you have to agree that ONE person is confirmed innocent and they can't vote. The other 3 would all have to vote and then give Kenpachi a 33% chance of shooting the SK and winning the game.
Yeah I was so mad when you and kenpachi bandwagoned me right off the bat with that reasoning. I started thinking "maybe i should have kept BC alive. I'd rather lose to his ability and persuasion than this backwards logic."
I thought of that kenpachi thing too which would was an option but naturally I didn't want to suggest it lol. It could've been abused with politician though probably.
I'll post my thoughts tomorrow prolly but I just want to say that I am SO glad I was sk. As townie I would've gotten so sick of the garbage that was getting passed around and sheeped on, but as sk i could keep reminding myself 'its ok i dont care about that lousy town.' Seeing LSB's plan get so much credence and mine ignored was just...O_O
Even funnier was that the only two people who bothered to make plans were the SKs LMAO.
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Yea I gotta say LSB that was major balls to push that Scummy plan through. I think if you just didn't rolefish you woulda lived a bit longer.
Townies actually went a long with it and I was like oh no....Scum win in 5 days v_v
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
Is this the first SK win in the history of TL Mafia?
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I won as an SK in one of Caller's games but that was much easier than this. I had the option to win with Town or Scum iirc.
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
Oh, and by the way serious props to BC. Scum team, he had you pegged really early (except for he thought Misder was Mafia instead of Haplo until the Parity incident), and he suspected Jimbo from very early on though wasn't able to do anything about it till the end.
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On January 22 2011 16:53 Ace wrote:
However, there WAS a way out. And this is one of the very few times I'd ever say a townie should do this - Kenpachi get himself lynched. This way you get TWO flips in one day as town. Kenpachi gets flipped innocent and if he doesn't want to die you might have your SK. If he's not SK he gets lynched and shoots the Scummiest person on the wagon when he flips Godfather - that being whoever you guys convince him it is. The only hiccup in this plan is that all of you have to agree that ONE person is confirmed innocent and they can't vote. The other 3 would all have to vote and then give Kenpachi a 33% chance of shooting the SK and winning the game.
I thought about this too. However, it actually only makes sense if you you think there's a possibility that Kenpachi is the SK. With the way Kenpachi played this game, that seemed unlikely. It was still a superior plan to just lynching Jimbo twice, but it wasn't better than lynching 2 non-Jimbo players if Jimbo isn't your biggest suspect.
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On January 22 2011 16:53 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 16:51 aidnai wrote:
Damn it, I had no idea politician could buy votes more than once. My bad, I'll make that clear next time in the OP v_v Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 16:53 aidnai wrote:Well played Jimbo, GG. Damn it damn it damn it we had him too... Yea Jimbo played one hell of an SK game. He NEVER used his Politician power the entire game which was amazing patience. Your end game analysis was really wrong though. Jimbo was right - If he is an SK Vet or Town Vet lynching him gets you no where. Really you're just giving the SK another night to shoot. You won't get any information from wasting that lynch. With 5 (4) players and 48 hours if you can't decide then what will another 48 hours with no Town Night Actions do? However, there WAS a way out. And this is one of the very few times I'd ever say a townie should do this - Kenpachi get himself lynched. This way you get TWO flips in one day as town. Kenpachi gets flipped innocent and if he doesn't want to die you might have your SK. If he's not SK he gets lynched and shoots the Scummiest person on the wagon when he flips Godfather - that being whoever you guys convince him it is. The only hiccup in this plan is that all of you have to agree that ONE person is confirmed innocent and they can't vote. The other 3 would all have to vote and then give Kenpachi a 33% chance of shooting the SK and winning the game.
I was going for a 2v1 situation. And, as I said, if Jimbo was vet SK, then NOT lynching him was insta-loss -- plus, I have given my reasons for thinking Jimbo was the prime suspect. Kenpachi and Eiii I was pretty sure about, beneather and misder I had misgivings about, and Jimbo was numero uno. By lynching jimbo, even if he was town vet, we were headed towards 2v1 where there's a lot less wrong guesses to make.
How is any of this wrong?
The kenpachi/godfather thing is an interesting idea, but
a) would never have thought of that because SK is bulletproof, i.e. only a lynch will kill?
b) would require every single player to agree, including SK ?
c) leaves the game in the hands of kenpachi ?
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Well if you're going for 2v1 I didn't get that from your posts so maybe I misread it. Either way you had would have had to convince everyone that Jimbo has to be SK and regardless of role is the only person getting votes.
as for:
A.) Only a lynch or a day killing ability would get rid of SK. SKs can shoot each other though.
B.) Yes but then you get to see if anyone plays chicken, potentially catching the real SK.
C.) I know this is the scary part because there's no telling what Kenpachi will do 
Also any comments and suggestions for this and future setups is appreciated.
I'm probably going to change the Hider role to also. If Town gets the role and hides with an Anti-Town player they will die that night.
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On January 22 2011 17:41 aidnai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 16:53 Ace wrote:On January 22 2011 16:51 aidnai wrote:
Damn it, I had no idea politician could buy votes more than once. My bad, I'll make that clear next time in the OP v_v On January 22 2011 16:53 aidnai wrote:Well played Jimbo, GG. Damn it damn it damn it we had him too... Yea Jimbo played one hell of an SK game. He NEVER used his Politician power the entire game which was amazing patience. Your end game analysis was really wrong though. Jimbo was right - If he is an SK Vet or Town Vet lynching him gets you no where. Really you're just giving the SK another night to shoot. You won't get any information from wasting that lynch. With 5 (4) players and 48 hours if you can't decide then what will another 48 hours with no Town Night Actions do? However, there WAS a way out. And this is one of the very few times I'd ever say a townie should do this - Kenpachi get himself lynched. This way you get TWO flips in one day as town. Kenpachi gets flipped innocent and if he doesn't want to die you might have your SK. If he's not SK he gets lynched and shoots the Scummiest person on the wagon when he flips Godfather - that being whoever you guys convince him it is. The only hiccup in this plan is that all of you have to agree that ONE person is confirmed innocent and they can't vote. The other 3 would all have to vote and then give Kenpachi a 33% chance of shooting the SK and winning the game. I was going for a 2v1 situation. And, as I said, if Jimbo was vet SK, then NOT lynching him was insta-loss -- plus, I have given my reasons for thinking Jimbo was the prime suspect. Kenpachi and Eiii I was pretty sure about, beneather and misder I had misgivings about, and Jimbo was numero uno. By lynching jimbo, even if he was town vet, we were headed towards 2v1 where there's a lot less wrong guesses to make. How is any of this wrong? The kenpachi/godfather thing is an interesting idea, but a) would never have thought of that because SK is bulletproof, i.e. only a lynch will kill? b) would require every single player to agree, including SK ? c) leaves the game in the hands of kenpachi ?
a) SK is bulletproof at night, not during the day. LSB died to a non-lynch (Day vigi hit).
b) SK can't really get around it. If he doesn't agree, he gets lynched. Basically town waits until an hour before the lynch is up and if someone hasn't cooperated by then, lynch him.
c) That just depends on how much you trust Kenpachi.
EDIT: nice ninja post Ace
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On January 22 2011 17:45 Ace wrote:
Also any comments and suggestions for this and future setups is appreciated.
I'm probably going to change the Hider role to also. If Town gets the role and hides with an Anti-Town player they will die that night.
I don't get the reasoning why you change the Hider like that. Just to keep the role from becoming as good as Bullet Proof? This is another case of overlapping roles where 1 is 100% weaker than the other. Maybe make this change and give the Hider 1 sane alignment check which cannot be used the same night he tries to hide?
I don't think there should be the possibility that a doctor can be Naive. Weak, Paranoid, and Normal possibilities are fine. However, I think that the chance that the role just won't work is discouraging people from picking it. Plus I don't think the role is any stronger than a lot of other roles even without the possibility you will be Naive. Also, maybe without the Naive variant, the Mafia will realize that Doctor can be a ridiculously good role for keeping the town busy/running in circles, though I guess it would be stronger for them if there was no Weak variant so they could protect innocents from town night kills.
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On January 22 2011 17:16 Ace wrote:
Yea I gotta say LSB that was major balls to push that Scummy plan through. I think if you just didn't rolefish you woulda lived a bit longer.
Townies actually went a long with it and I was like oh no....Scum win in 5 days v_v
I thought the reason he died is because he assigned himself Godfather and then he didn't claim that it got stolen (most likely because he didn't try to take it). When the town found out about it, busted. Yet another drawback of a plan like that if you don't intend to follow it yourself: you have to lie.
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
On January 22 2011 18:02 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 17:16 Ace wrote:
Yea I gotta say LSB that was major balls to push that Scummy plan through. I think if you just didn't rolefish you woulda lived a bit longer.
Townies actually went a long with it and I was like oh no....Scum win in 5 days v_v I thought the reason he died is because he assigned himself Godfather and then he didn't claim that it got stolen (most likely because he didn't try to take it). When the town found out about it, busted. Yet another drawback of a plan like that if you don't intend to follow it yourself: you have to lie.
Yeah the not-claim is silly. Same with Eiii... should've said he didn't get Parity much earlier.
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Hmm.. so it could have worked... but, only if misder and Eiii were active
I had no idea we were on such a precipice. But I think the errors at the end of the game were not as significant as several earlier on.
1) LSB's plan was horrible for town. I regret that I did not pay much attention during this stage of the game. I know LSB loves his plans, I didn't see anything wrong until BC did his analysis. Direct results of the plan:
-Mafia got CC and CPR doc rather safely, it only slipped away from them because of later errors.
-Mafia got a fairly accurate role list
-etc
2) Not directing Deconduo's hit night one.
3) No lynch on Deconduo day 2 wtf? There was no reason to leave an anti town KP alive (well, we thought he had KP), regardless of promises...
4) due to my poor posting day 1, I was forced to use my role early to prove myself and ended up not just wasting it, but actually saving a scum Note for the future, don't be a scumbag day 1, especially when you have a role... I could have used Witch much more effectively after night 2
Almost all of this was apathy at some level, but knowing that town is too lazy to direct deconduo's lynch and then leaving deconduo alive to do his own thing? wow...
Meh, rather than reflect on mistakes, I would like to bask in some of the glorious moments... Bum vs. BC was ecstasy for me And I liked BC in general dismantling LSB and then the scum team. I was extremely suspicious of BC until LSB flipped, then it started clicking... Great job, mad props to you BC.
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On January 22 2011 18:02 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 17:16 Ace wrote:
Yea I gotta say LSB that was major balls to push that Scummy plan through. I think if you just didn't rolefish you woulda lived a bit longer.
Townies actually went a long with it and I was like oh no....Scum win in 5 days v_v I thought the reason he died is because he assigned himself Godfather and then he didn't claim that it got stolen (most likely because he didn't try to take it). When the town found out about it, busted. Yet another drawback of a plan like that if you don't intend to follow it yourself: you have to lie.
Oh yeah I forgot about that dagger. I forgot who it was but I lol'd when someone seemed shocked LSB didn't follow his own plan.
On January 22 2011 17:54 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 17:45 Ace wrote:
Also any comments and suggestions for this and future setups is appreciated.
I'm probably going to change the Hider role to also. If Town gets the role and hides with an Anti-Town player they will die that night. I don't get the reasoning why you change the Hider like that. Just to keep the role from becoming as good as Bullet Proof? This is another case of overlapping roles where 1 is 100% weaker than the other. Maybe make this change and give the Hider 1 sane alignment check which cannot be used the same night he tries to hide? I don't think there should be the possibility that a doctor can be Naive. Weak, Paranoid, and Normal possibilities are fine. However, I think that the chance that the role just won't work is discouraging people from picking it. Plus I don't think the role is any stronger than a lot of other roles even without the possibility you will be Naive. Also, maybe without the Naive variant, the Mafia will realize that Doctor can be a ridiculously good role for keeping the town busy/running in circles, though I guess it would be stronger for them if there was no Weak variant so they could protect innocents from town night kills.
The Hider change was a flavor thing. As if in real life a Hider tried to hide behind Scum I imagine them getting Night Killed on the spot. Still going to think about how it would interact with Vet and Bulletproof before I change it.
Noted Doctor change. I think just having Normal and Paranoid is going to be the way to go.
Also what does everyone think about Traitor? I know it's a fun role but does anyone feel 2 people going for Traitor with 1 ringing the bell becoming the "de facto Day 1 Start" is a bad thing for gameplay?
Thoughts on Parity Cop and Alignment Cop also (and yes I know both are still useless for Scum ^_^)
On January 22 2011 18:12 aidnai wrote:Hmm.. so it could have worked... but, only if misder and Eiii were active I had no idea we were on such a precipice. But I think the errors at the end of the game were not as significant as several earlier on. 1) LSB's plan was horrible for town. I regret that I did not pay much attention during this stage of the game. I know LSB loves his plans, I didn't see anything wrong until BC did his analysis. Direct results of the plan: -Mafia got CC and CPR doc rather safely, it only slipped away from them because of later errors. -Mafia got a fairly accurate role list -etc 2) Not directing Deconduo's hit night one. 3) No lynch on Deconduo day 2 wtf? There was no reason to leave an anti town KP alive (well, we thought he had KP), regardless of promises... 4) due to my poor posting day 1, I was forced to use my role early to prove myself and ended up not just wasting it, but actually saving a scum Note for the future, don't be a scumbag day 1, especially when you have a role... I could have used Witch much more effectively after night 2 Almost all of this was apathy at some level, but knowing that town is too lazy to direct deconduo's lynch and then leaving deconduo alive to do his own thing? wow... Meh, rather than reflect on mistakes, I would like to bask in some of the glorious moments... Bum vs. BC was ecstasy for me And I liked BC in general dismantling LSB and then the scum team. I was extremely suspicious of BC until LSB flipped, then it started clicking... Great job, mad props to you BC.
I actually threw you in my "This guy is always wrong never follow his advice in game" pile. Too bad you didn't post like that during the game 
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
Parity is awesome. I honestly think Role Cop is a bit more useless in PYP (and the lack of it leads to much more entertaining play) though you do need it sometimes to catch bullshit. Traitor is sick fun, but the traitor will pretty much be found early because you got people who want to take it and will announce "lol I didn't get it." It's a nice way to spice up the game though, so I like it.
Edit: oops why'd I say role cop? Anyway both Alignment and Parity are fine. I like Parity more though because I'm not too much of a fan of variants in these types of games^^
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Honestly I'm not a fan of the hider role. Its weaker than vet, and doesn't seem like that fun of a role.
Traitor is a fine role. Its not the mod's fault that town has bad strategy and tries to go for the traitor early.
I prefer alignment cop to parity cop. I know parity cop didn't fall into town hands this game, but I think alignment cop is nerfed enough anyway since theres the potential to be insane, and SKs show up as town.
I'll post a game analysis tomorrow.
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Gg all, was a really fun game to participate in and follow
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I did not want to play this game at first, but when BC joined, I also decided to sign up last moment. I gave myself two choices at that point.
1. Get Day Vigilante and kill BC the instant the game starts.
2. Destroy LSB's plan.
Getting Day Vigilante requires a very high draft. 6th wasn't high enough, plus I thought it would be a bit too lame even if I was able to pull the assassination off. It would be funny regardless. Obviously, I went with the latter.
There are a few reasons why I wanted to choose Traitor
- I do not have to deal with Town.
- It makes things more interesting, and gives me extra motivation to screw with LSB's grand plan.
- Since I knew I was town at that point, and I wasn't planning to kill BC anymore, it was quite convenient to take the off chance that he might be Mafia. If we were able to team up, that could be fun.
My early exposure, and LoR's accusation was enough to get me recruited Night 1. Mafia had solid hits early on, and everything seemed to go well. However, that quickly changed. I ranted on deconduo's decision to claim SK, but it was understandable based on bumatlarge's accusation to tell players with top drafts to type "Kill: Player". I thought the overall scenario was just too extreme, but there was no turning back at that point.
A cycle later, deconduo decides to claim to town that he in fact hit me that Night. This was a key turning point for me; I knew things would start to go downhill from here and I was really upset with the move. Basically deconduo, while his "SK claim" validity has already been briefly brought up, confirmed contact with the biggest Traitor candidate, me, where I did not die. This will raise eyebrows no matter how you look at it, and left me limited options to work with. Should I say the hit never happened? Should I claim Veteran? Can't claim RB since a SK hit would go through. Should I say another Medic protected me? Which is likely since I claimed not following the plan. Bah, It didn't matter. I was bound to die. The moment I die, deconduo's claim would be void. When my lynch was confirmed, I made that last post as a last ditch effort, to help the "team"; To create a diversion on the SK(s), to plant distrust, no matter how minor it was. The effect was minimal - "Town" doesn't know how to read.
On Night 5, I warned bumatlarge and HaploPaithan not to hit JimboSilvers, as he was one of our main SK candidates. At that point, Mafia needed all the kills they can get in order to achieve/avoid Majority. JimboSilvers was hit anyways. Regardless, it didn't matter as bumatlarge and Pigsquirrel were killed, and the game was officially over for Mafia at that point.
Ace already commented on Mafia's overall play, so lets just leave it at that.
When Mafia was all but gone, I was rooting for the SK. Besides BC, no one in "Town" deserved a win. No one. Some of these players shouldn't even have played the game in the first place.
I should also add that Ace has a (lame lol?) sense of humor. Both me and BC joined the game with the intention of destroying LSB's plan. Neither of us turned out to be Mafia/SK, and LSB, the person who promoted a "pro-Town" plan flipped SK.
;/
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Ugh, I'm ridiculously sorry I was so inactive and so shitty when I was inactive. I didn't feel involved in any of the discussions and don't really know how to jump into situations AND be useful. :/
EDIT:
On January 22 2011 18:12 flamewheel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 18:02 Qatol wrote:On January 22 2011 17:16 Ace wrote:
Yea I gotta say LSB that was major balls to push that Scummy plan through. I think if you just didn't rolefish you woulda lived a bit longer.
Townies actually went a long with it and I was like oh no....Scum win in 5 days v_v I thought the reason he died is because he assigned himself Godfather and then he didn't claim that it got stolen (most likely because he didn't try to take it). When the town found out about it, busted. Yet another drawback of a plan like that if you don't intend to follow it yourself: you have to lie. Yeah the not-claim is silly. Same with Eiii... should've said he didn't get Parity much earlier.
And this was something I was struggling with-- I figured I should have not claimed and tried to soak up a mafia hit, but if I claimed that I didn't get it then mafia would know where parity *actually* was within 2-3 people for sure (and they could probably narrow it down to one good suspect from there) since the roles of so many people above me were known. Once parity had found out something really useful they could bring it forward, and I could claim that I actually didn't get it to legitimize their claim. And if I got killed off before hand, then I had successfully absorbed a hit that was aimed at someone a lot more useful than I was.
To be honest, I didn't really consider it as a role that mafia would have wanted to pick up but apparently I should have. Either way, what does knowing that parity cop might be scum hands do for us other than just assuming I have it doesn't?
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I don't have a ton of time as im running off to work bbut as a general note.
Fuck yeah, I was right, fucking A.
Only red I missed was zeks whom jimbo killed very quickly.
As for town, you guys got extremeeeeeeely lucky to be in the game this long. Had kita's shot gone through the only person who had the mafia pinned as the sk, who with effort most likely still would have won this game.
Now as for the town as a whole, I will go into more detail later but I have to say this. You guys blew. You followed me in the end, but you guys were screwed had I not stepped up. TL towns have to analyze behaviour not spend time talkiiing about roles. Roles don't prove alignment. If you will notice the only time I spent any serious time on roles was differentiating between bum and halpo on who had parity and who had cpr.
However back to the original point. A veteran player should not be required to win mafia games for town. You guys were blindly following bad plans, following scummy as hell players, and even with me stepping up key town players needed to ensure a 100% town win were using their hit wrong.
Anyone go back to night 3 when I had my double roleblock plan and tell me what they think would happen now. Bum would have died, PoD roleblocked, parity blocked. Cpr would have been dead then, dropping kp. I believe kita/amber/cube would be dead.
But, they died stopping mafia kp as well as letting us lynch pod without a second night. then its cleaning up and offing the sk.would have given the extra day needed for town to survive.
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EPT
