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On August 09 2010 10:16 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 10:12 citi.zen wrote:On August 09 2010 10:12 Ace wrote:On August 09 2010 10:04 citi.zen wrote:On August 09 2010 10:03 Ace wrote:On August 09 2010 10:00 citi.zen wrote:On August 09 2010 07:48 Ace wrote:On August 09 2010 07:37 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: "If any townies have penalties then you'll know based on your OWN role PM which penalties should make sense when we all claim them."
I don't agree - I have no idea what to expect in other penalties and I don't see how claiming them will make certain people stand out. It might help us plan some strategies but it might help the mafia, too. What if someone's penalty is that they can't do anything till night 4? Then the mafia knows to avoid that person until night 3 and kill them then. What if the penalties for townies look a lot different from the penalties for blues? That could bite us in the ass. If someone's penalty is they can't do anything until night 4 thats great. Because then we can remove them from any actions that happen at night, and if they still live on Night 4 we ask them to prove their action. Obviously if you can't act until Night 4 which would be ridiculous in any mafia game you've gotta have something damn near game breaking. So if the scum want to let that person until night 3 that's cool with me because before that said person better be going all out doing some intelligent scum hunting. But even all of this is moot because I did say don't make it too obvious what your role could be. On death once your role is revealed we can piece everything together. It doesn't even matter if Vanilla penalties look different than blue penalties - we just need a list of penalties period to even move forward. So what if it helps the mafia? Would you rather the town not have any direction on where to go and just stumble around mindlessly? It's like complaining that Terran's are making infantry knowing that Zerg has lurkers. Execution of the plan is just as important as the plan itself. If you don't agree come up with a better idea because I'm all ears. @divinek: now you're starting to get it ^_^ We KNOW for a fact that townies have restrictions and scum don't. They only have fake claims the host gave them. So if we are aware of our own penalties and KNOW that we have to behave a certain way then we can't do things that go against our PM where as scum can because theirs are fake. They can't fake their actions because once we see what most people's penalties look like and people start dying the picture becomes very clear. Why are we so sure penalties are not linked to roles? From what I've seen, and knowing my penalty, people with a blue role have penalties pertaining to that role (ex: can't use power Y unless X happens). Greens can't have that type of penalty. Telling everyone "I can't use my power unless X" means you are blue = pleasant sniping reds. So I'd advise you to reconsider, unless you think some sort of mass role-claim is a good play. In some set-ups that is the case, in this one I personally haven't come to that conclusion. I'll admit that, as usual, I don't pay close attention on weekends, am I missing something? no need for role claims yet, just penalties. Like I said I gave you all my penalty and if you all think it's that simple then tell me what my role is ^_^ Look at bumatlarge's penalty claim: no one would know he was a tree stump (role) based on the fact that acting increases mafia population by 1 (penalty). The idea that penalties implies roles is false based on bumatlarge's post and the fact that my penalty also does not imply my role. That's just it: he has to use his "ability" = he has an "ability". So he's some sort of blue that just got outed. Being BLUE doesn't matter. You are looking at it wrong. Everyone has a role. EVERYONE. Ignore anything about blue roles for now. We only care about PENALTIES. If bumatlarge didn't tell you he was a tree stump you would never know. zeks just told us his penalty, do you know his role? I told you my penalty, do you know my role? See where I'm going now. also *yawn* at Pyrr. I didn't out any blues but nice job at trying to spread some panic. I hope the Vigilante or whatever killing role we have shoots you asap. Are you claiming there are no vanilla townies? Not at all. Reading the OP: Show nested quote +This setup also has another twist in it; all Townies (not mafia) will have specific penalties that either diminish strength of one's ability or simply anti-town. No post restriction bs though. If you are town you have a penalty. Doesn't matter if you are blue or green. Scum have fake penalties. # vote Pyrr Bill Murray may be an idiot, but I'm pretty certain you're scum. STOP PICKING AND READING
This setup also has another twist in it; all Townies (not mafia) will have specific penalties that either diminish strength of one's ability or simply anti-town. No post restriction bs though.
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On August 09 2010 10:23 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 10:20 LSB wrote:On August 09 2010 10:16 Ace wrote:On August 09 2010 10:12 citi.zen wrote:On August 09 2010 10:12 Ace wrote:On August 09 2010 10:04 citi.zen wrote:On August 09 2010 10:03 Ace wrote:On August 09 2010 10:00 citi.zen wrote:On August 09 2010 07:48 Ace wrote:On August 09 2010 07:37 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: "If any townies have penalties then you'll know based on your OWN role PM which penalties should make sense when we all claim them."
I don't agree - I have no idea what to expect in other penalties and I don't see how claiming them will make certain people stand out. It might help us plan some strategies but it might help the mafia, too. What if someone's penalty is that they can't do anything till night 4? Then the mafia knows to avoid that person until night 3 and kill them then. What if the penalties for townies look a lot different from the penalties for blues? That could bite us in the ass. If someone's penalty is they can't do anything until night 4 thats great. Because then we can remove them from any actions that happen at night, and if they still live on Night 4 we ask them to prove their action. Obviously if you can't act until Night 4 which would be ridiculous in any mafia game you've gotta have something damn near game breaking. So if the scum want to let that person until night 3 that's cool with me because before that said person better be going all out doing some intelligent scum hunting. But even all of this is moot because I did say don't make it too obvious what your role could be. On death once your role is revealed we can piece everything together. It doesn't even matter if Vanilla penalties look different than blue penalties - we just need a list of penalties period to even move forward. So what if it helps the mafia? Would you rather the town not have any direction on where to go and just stumble around mindlessly? It's like complaining that Terran's are making infantry knowing that Zerg has lurkers. Execution of the plan is just as important as the plan itself. If you don't agree come up with a better idea because I'm all ears. @divinek: now you're starting to get it ^_^ We KNOW for a fact that townies have restrictions and scum don't. They only have fake claims the host gave them. So if we are aware of our own penalties and KNOW that we have to behave a certain way then we can't do things that go against our PM where as scum can because theirs are fake. They can't fake their actions because once we see what most people's penalties look like and people start dying the picture becomes very clear. Why are we so sure penalties are not linked to roles? From what I've seen, and knowing my penalty, people with a blue role have penalties pertaining to that role (ex: can't use power Y unless X happens). Greens can't have that type of penalty. Telling everyone "I can't use my power unless X" means you are blue = pleasant sniping reds. So I'd advise you to reconsider, unless you think some sort of mass role-claim is a good play. In some set-ups that is the case, in this one I personally haven't come to that conclusion. I'll admit that, as usual, I don't pay close attention on weekends, am I missing something? no need for role claims yet, just penalties. Like I said I gave you all my penalty and if you all think it's that simple then tell me what my role is ^_^ Look at bumatlarge's penalty claim: no one would know he was a tree stump (role) based on the fact that acting increases mafia population by 1 (penalty). The idea that penalties implies roles is false based on bumatlarge's post and the fact that my penalty also does not imply my role. That's just it: he has to use his "ability" = he has an "ability". So he's some sort of blue that just got outed. Being BLUE doesn't matter. You are looking at it wrong. Everyone has a role. EVERYONE. Ignore anything about blue roles for now. We only care about PENALTIES. If bumatlarge didn't tell you he was a tree stump you would never know. zeks just told us his penalty, do you know his role? I told you my penalty, do you know my role? See where I'm going now. also *yawn* at Pyrr. I didn't out any blues but nice job at trying to spread some panic. I hope the Vigilante or whatever killing role we have shoots you asap. Are you claiming there are no vanilla townies? Not at all. Reading the OP: This setup also has another twist in it; all Townies (not mafia) will have specific penalties that either diminish strength of one's ability or simply anti-town. No post restriction bs though. If you are town you have a penalty. Doesn't matter if you are blue or green. Scum have fake penalties. # vote Pyrr Bill Murray may be an idiot, but I'm pretty certain you're scum. STOP PICKING AND READING This setup also has another twist in it; all Townies (not mafia) will have specific penalties that either diminish strength of one's ability or simply anti-town. No post restriction bs though. Does bumatlarge's penalty DIMINISH his tree stump ability? It doesn't. It's simply ANTI-TOWN. Highlight the entire quote and READ. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Converse_accident This is the mistake you are making. You can't take a few penalties and generalize them to all 13
Let's say there is a medic, her penalty is that she only works on even numbered days. Under rules this is possible.
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On August 09 2010 10:31 Ace wrote: And if that's the penalty then the medic simply says my penalty is that I can only act on certain days. That doesn't tell you or anyone else that the role is medic. Did you READ when I first proposed this plan? We'll get your role later on in the game or upon death and then match it up with everything else we know. I know what I'm talking about and my logic is 100% on point, get off of wikipedia and use your head. What that tells the mafia is that the medic has an ability that can be used at night. The mafia won't know if the medic is a DT, or a Bus Driver, or a Vig, or a Medic. But all they will know is that they should kill the medic before night 2.
It sounds like your part of the mafia, trying to get a nice hit list.
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On August 09 2010 10:38 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +Ace : Must telegraph moves to the town before acting bumatlarge: If acting mafia population goes up by 1, town population goes down by 1 zeks: If lynched, random person(?) on the wagon gets permanent +1 voting power I am stuck in "regular" mafia land, but to me this translates into: Ace: weak blue bumatlarge: strong blue zeks: vanilla townie Do we want this info out there? Na, bumatlarge is just the tree stump. http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Tree_Stump
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On August 09 2010 10:41 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 10:39 LSB wrote:On August 09 2010 10:31 Ace wrote: And if that's the penalty then the medic simply says my penalty is that I can only act on certain days. That doesn't tell you or anyone else that the role is medic. Did you READ when I first proposed this plan? We'll get your role later on in the game or upon death and then match it up with everything else we know. I know what I'm talking about and my logic is 100% on point, get off of wikipedia and use your head. What that tells the mafia is that the medic has an ability that can be used at night. The mafia won't know if the medic is a DT, or a Bus Driver, or a Vig, or a Medic. But all they will know is that they should kill the medic before night 2. It sounds like your part of the mafia, trying to get a nice hit list. wrong. You don't know it's a medic. You've only seen the penalty. How does telling the town you can act on certain nights imply you're a medic? Explain, especially since any sane person's first thought would be Vigilante. What that tells the mafia is that the person has an ability that can be used at night. The mafia won't know if the person is a DT, or a Bus Driver, or a Vig, or a Medic. But all they will know is that they should kill the medic before night 2.
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What that tells the mafia is that the blue has an ability that can be used at night. The mafia won't know if the blue is a DT, or a Bus Driver, or a Vig, or a Medic. But all they will know is that they should kill the blue before night 2.
Whoops, left out a word in the previous copy paste
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On August 09 2010 10:48 Ace wrote: ACTION can my anything, NOT Blue. Stop thinking like that. I've outlined it like 50 times. If you only know the penalty has the word action in it that does not imply a typical blue role. Look at the penalties we've got so far and tell me who's blue!
I'm not going to help you think scum
Scum, your lucky that I'm set on killing BM today
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Guys, focus on BM I am guilty of this myself, letting my personal feelings get in the way. But we right now can't afford to start diverting votes from BM in order to start bashing Ace or Pyrr. We've determined that BM is either A) Mafia, or B) a townie that just wants to make our lives difficult. Either way, this is Anti-Town.
As for Ace's plan
On August 09 2010 14:19 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: You wanna know my penalty?
I can perform a certain action but it doesn't go through until two mornings later. Pyrr obviously has a blue action. Looks like this plan made blue sniping a lot easier for the scum
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On August 09 2010 23:21 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 23:03 LSB wrote:Guys, focus on BM I am guilty of this myself, letting my personal feelings get in the way. But we right now can't afford to start diverting votes from BM in order to start bashing Ace or Pyrr. We've determined that BM is either A) Mafia, or B) a townie that just wants to make our lives difficult. Either way, this is Anti-Town. As for Ace's plan On August 09 2010 14:19 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: You wanna know my penalty?
I can perform a certain action but it doesn't go through until two mornings later. Pyrr obviously has a blue action. Looks like this plan made blue sniping a lot easier for the scum Pyrr could also be red. Of course. So lets see what penalty claiming has done for the town The Town knows that Pyrr is either Blue or Red. (Assuming Pyrr isn't in the mafia) The Mafia knows that Pyrr is Blue, because they have a PM of who is red. Target #1 on the hitlist
So all we're doing is giving the mafia more information
On August 09 2010 23:24 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 23:23 zeks wrote: agreed, lynching BM should be our first course of action - will make things easier when we decide to out Ace or Pyrr How do you reckon that?
Lets say BM flips red. Ace would then be our next lynch. Ace was the one who figured out BM was just messing with us. After a bandwagon was formed. Ace responced by chainsaw defending BM. Very scummy
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On August 10 2010 07:29 Ace wrote: Keep trying to scare people into penalties = blue sniping bullshit LSB. I also never said I don't want to take care of BM, I just find Pyrr far more scummy. Like I said this is very simple If your assumption is true then tell me what everyone's role is right now. None of you can because you don't know. I've asked this a good what, 7 times now? Okay scum, I'm doing this for the town
Ace: BS penalty cause he's scum Bumatlarge: Tree stump Zeks: Townie Bill Murray: Townie or Red Korynne: He thankfully made his penalty really general, and he hasn't posted much so I can't tell. I think green, but I haven't found his 'penalty claim' post yet.
Give me more penalties, I give you more answers
There you go scum.
Let's keep this straight, your plan Sucks. If I can figure roles out, a complete noob who hasn't survived the first night yet. The mafia can do it All you say is "LOL People are dumb! They can't figure it out! lol" Then the mafia can crack it. To me it sounds like a mafia honeypot
I also don't care about Pyrr's claim because I think he's scummy. If Pyrr wants to save himself he can just role claim before the lynch if shit gets that bad. Otherwise my vote stays - he's made way too many mistakes on Day 1 to be playing this bad.
Let's talk about our feelings I feel a bit queasy, cause I ate some fried stuff for dinner. I also feel a bit tired. Talking about feeling is really fun :D!
Pyrr is offering himself as a sacrifice so we can take down BM. You didn't take it.
Also I did not chainsaw defend Bill Murray, get your terms straight if you want to be taken seriously and not looked at as scum.
Definition of Chainsaw defense. Scum defending their own by attacking someone else. I want to congratulate you scum. You pulled it off well. We know BM is scum, and you've successfully starved off his lynch in favor of Pyrr.
kkthxbai
LSB when are you actually going to contribute anything to the town instead of trying to attack me?
You want to know what I'm contributing to the town? I'm trying to take down a known scum. Bill Murry. Your kill our DT. Congratulations.
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Nice defense btw, your eloquence astounds me
I'm going after you because of the honeypot you created, not because of BM, and especially not because of Pyrr.
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Definition of Chainsaw defense. Scum defending their own by attacking someone else.
Let's say we have two people. Let's call them Bill Murry, and Ace. Bill Murry is mafia, he gets attacked.
Ace is mafia, he starts attacking the DT. The town gets distracted and doesn't lynch BM and instead lynches the DT.
That is the chainsaw defence
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Attention Town. Are you wondering how we got our DT lynched?
Look where our votes went. 3 votes went to BM, and Ace recieved 2 votes. If we all had focused on BM, he would be lynched.
Instead, we broke up our votes and we got screwed over.
Remember, there are 3 mafia. So all it takes is one of us to go after the wrong person, the three mafia members then jump on, bringing it to a total of 4 votes. Boom, Pyrr is dead
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On August 10 2010 09:04 Ace wrote: Wrong. If that's the case then why I would call Bill Murray out and then defend him. Derp Derp?
As soon as Hessmyrr answers my PM I'll know if I can role claim or not. This game is over. Offering one of your own as sacrifice? Look at my earlier post to see why
On August 09 2010 08:36 LSB wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 08:32 LSB wrote: Why BM would do this, assuming he's mafia: Immediately, town got in a huge disarray. A split was made. BM was counting on this working so that Ace would die the first day. We then see that Ace is clean, and day 2 we would lynch BM and his best supporter, who would happen to be green. Bill's death buys 2 days and 2 innocents. However, looks like he made a small mistake :D
Oops I can't read either, there isn't any double lynch. In instead of 2 days, Bill's death buys 3 days. As day 3 we lynch his 'right hand man'. Assuming no vigis act, that would leave the town with 4 townies vrs. 2 mafia at the start of day 4. I have already answered these questions. What you are doing is asking me these things, trying to get me distracted.
I'm pretty sure you'll roleclaim mafia.
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Say wut?
You sound like the People in battle.net forums. OMG this game is unbalanced QQ.
I will offer an alternate theory.
This game is balanced by 1) Reversal of expectations. Mafia will expect things, things won't turn out right. 2) Large amounts of blue roles. Given that lots of people haven't role claimed yet, and our first lynch hits a blue, it's pretty likely that a lot of people are blue.
What your theory sounds like is "Vigi! Please don't kill me tonight"
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On August 10 2010 09:35 Ace wrote: false citizen. I only did that in like 4 out of 15 or so mafia games. That doesn't mean I like to do it ^_^
Thanks for taking responsibility of the vote switch though. It almost makes you innocent in my blood stained eyes. He admits to being awake up all night doing bloody work! :O
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But hanging's don't leave blood!
We were going to use the guillotine, but the ghost of Marie Antoinette is kindof scary.
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On August 10 2010 23:22 chaoser wrote: jesus, i'm gone for a night and shit goes down -_-. Why didn't people get off Pyrr when he claimed DT? I guess it was too late at that point? Ace, you got some explaining to do...what is this "hidden ability" stuff about? A bunch of BS that Ace made up.
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On August 11 2010 00:59 chaoser wrote: mm, are you sure it's bs? I want him to talk about it first/how he came tot he conclusion that he has a hidden ability before I decide
On August 11 2010 00:27 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 00:08 LSB wrote:On August 10 2010 23:22 chaoser wrote: jesus, i'm gone for a night and shit goes down -_-. Why didn't people get off Pyrr when he claimed DT? I guess it was too late at that point? Ace, you got some explaining to do...what is this "hidden ability" stuff about? A bunch of BS that Ace made up. He didn't make it up, he logically deduced, based on the few penalties people posted so far, and without knowledge of the blue roles included in the game. I mean... the town was at -3 versus the "baseline" - what else could be going on besides hidden abilities?? Theirs quite a few completely wrong assumptions.
Firstly, lets go over his logic again. EVERYONE in the town has a penalty. Not just the 4 people he used his 'data' from. So in reality, it should be far below -3.
Okay, so lets pretend the town is really behind and we all have hidden roles. That doesn't sound like too much of a jump. So how in the world does Ace know he's going to die if he misses scum? Ace just pulls a role out of a hat and pretends it fits. Who knows, maybe if Ace visits a scum, the scum dies? That would be another penalty
Faults with Aces logic 1) Assumption of population data with the penalties. But in reality, Ace just has a Green/Red Biased sample. Ace can't just say the score is -3:0 when 9 people haven't responded.
2) Assumption that there is 'nothing going for the town' and nothing wrong with the mafia
Ace said At this point since the Mafia have no penalties the game would be highly unbalanced in their favor. This is flat out wrong. In this game, there is 1) Lots of blue roles. 2) Changing of expectations. Mafia will find that their ability is hindered.
Ace can't assume their is hidden roles just because he QQs over the apparent imbalance in this game
3) Random role out of the hat. Ace can't just pick a random role out of the hat and pray it's the same one Hesmyrr chose. It's akain to me saying "I feel if I die on night one, I have a hidden role called 'death-curse' that kills all mafia members".
Okay. Now I will show you why Ace is not town Lets check out this topic of Aces How Ace Plays as sucm
On June 28 2010 13:33 Ace wrote:[*]The Art of Arguing: - What is logic?
- Letting logical fallacies go through and how they win you the game
- How to read arguments: Premises and conclusions, Deductive and Inductive arguments
- Misuse of terms
- Speaking for dead townies and why you should never do it
- Gut reads and why they are your worst enemy and best friend
- Convincing one player vs convincing the town
- How to pick arguments apart
- Answering questions - with a question
Note the things I've bolded. Ace has made many logical fallacies and still tries to pull it through. When questioned about these problems, he just asks his own questions in return, ignoring the severe flaws in his plan.
Conclusion: Ace is Scum
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