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On May 27 2010 12:47 Fishball wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2010 12:23 Iaaan wrote:
well, gg.
You were very vocal this game Fishball (: Never seen you post so much before. Because this isn't a Mafia game. There are no "bad guys"; You don't die for speaking up, especially not when your shit actually makes some sense. I actually wasn't going to join this game in the first place. I already played a few games in a row, and the last game I played, I was totally out of it. I was planning to take at least a 6 months break or so. However Three Kingdoms does have a special place in my heart, and when I saw LR signed up, I signed up too. Then I found out about this 1v1v1v1 no-loyalty-whatsoever BS. I regretted. I fished BC on MSN the first day and found out he was Liu Bei (Long story). I told him my role and said if he doesn't recruit me, then I would really have no goal or motivation to play the game. This was prior the neutral victory idea was brought up. I don't want to flash back too much in detail right now, so I'll just talk about some key moments/issues. Early on, you guys will remember me questioning about the players "loyalty". Radfield will remember me pointing out that players recruited does not necessarily have to stay loyal to his leader. This is a HUGE issue. Caller later told us, even if players are recruited by a faction, the player can still use their power on their own faction. Let's say if we recruit BrownBear, he can still kill us anytime he wants. Keep in mind this is not Mafia, we don't have any KP at all. There is no way for us to get rid of any players. We asked Caller whether we would win if we eliminated YT, as Shu would be the remaining faction. His answer was no, as he counted neutrals as a faction (Different from the original rule). When Caller made the neutral a "faction", all the leaders were already at a huge disadvantage. Dissapointed, but to be expected. Basically the only way for Shu to win at this point, is to keep recruiting, and hopefully survive the next 8 or more cycles. Fat chance. Side note, BC was afk the majority of the time. His visitor pisses me off. He also fucked up the roleclaim. That's not what I told him to say, but I guess it doesn't matter anymore. 
yeah, tbh, i think loyalty should have been more... important. for instance, if I were Hesmyrr, I would have immediately switched to play for my faction. Same as if I had been recruited any of the nights. lol.
I would have been fine with not having a neutral win, but I definitely wouldn't have been as involved in the game as I was.
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On May 27 2010 12:54 Tricode wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2010 12:50 Fishball wrote:
Oh, and really, lol + WTF + !@#$ to BM.
His shit, from start, to the end, never made any sense.
He contradicted himself like a hundred times, as if he just posts whatever drops out of his ass at the time.
From the beginning of time to now, I'm still confused about BM.
Agreed and fixed.
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On May 27 2010 12:59 LunarDestiny wrote:
I would prefer if faction leaders start with 2 permanent recruits.
Liu Bei: Guan Yu, Zhang Fei.
Cao Cao: Xiahou Dun, Xiahou Yuan.
Sun Quan: Zhou Yu, Lu Meng.
Zhang Jiao: Zhang Bao, Zhang Liang.
EDIT:and eliminate Yellow Turban Faction.
So...
Liu Bei: Guan Yu, Zhang Fei.
Cao Cao: Xiahou Dun, Xiahou Yuan.
Sun Quan: Zhou Yu, Lu Meng.
Zhang Jiao: Zhang Bao, Zhang Liang.
That would work as well. lol. The only thing you need to think about (esp. if neutral is a faction) is balance in numbers between those in factions and those not.
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On May 27 2010 13:06 LunarDestiny wrote:
There should never be a neutral win in the first place.
Neutral should instead advertise themselves hoping to be recruited.
lol. prostitution.
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On May 28 2010 03:40 Fishball wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2010 21:52 Hesmyrr wrote:
I think it was all about charisma and public conception; I still recall how most people were skeptical of my plan until Lost Romantic and L was caught consecutively. If that had not happened I don't think enough people would have got behind the plan for neutral victory to work. Honestly most people came into this game expecting faction fight, so turning people against it initially was the hardest task- which is why I over-villainized faction leaders day 1 immediately after Caller threw out some fuel to work with. After THAT post no one was going to openly support the idea of faction fight (even neutrals since their primary goal is to survive, which is not going against town's consensus naturally does. And no leader would have recruited the neutral who planted target on himself.) I would have immediately taken the risk, reveal myself to the first recruit (mouthpiece was necessary to organize future recruits after all) and appease him/her as best as I can lol.
Yellow Turban, because its members could not be recruited, was closest to the actual cult and could have been very powerful had not Trezquet23 drew so much suspicion to himself. If you knew you were going to get checked I would definitely have sent him PM in advance that I was recruiting him. 'Appease' is key word here- when idea of neutral victory got dominant the power balance between recruiter and neutrals got reversed. There seem to be plenty of opinions who said this was not the game was meant to be played so if you were nice about it, I think people would have been acceptable. Hell, L even said "lol your plan sucks b/c this" and I still tried my hardest to save him before giving up for moral victory. I am especially curious after knowing Fishball's ability why he gave up- Fishball was seen as pro-town by day 2~3, so if he worked to keep people away from suspecting his true ability, BC could potentially have lived just enough to make it.
My theorycraft best plan for the what leaders should have done
1) Have the recruited members contact me or L. Set up an alliance whose conduit will be recruited members so that faction leaders identity can necessarily be kept secret. I had idea about using anonymous quickboard.
2) Role-claim wisely. I did it several times as Mafia and it isn't that hard -_- Almost all leaders got caught because of that. Fishball also needed to fake-role/nameclaim so BC's strength became that much stronger.
3) BC publicly claims himself as faction leader, or deliberately give off an "scumslip". Use all three faction members to spread ideas that BC must be lynched.
BC survives. 3 people recruited night 2, L is protected (by me) and BC is immune. You really think 4 different leaders would agree on this ? Even if they do, the "recruited members" might not even listen to the leaders. Hell they could even reveal X/Y/Z is the leader to the public. As for role claiming, that was pretty bad. BC's role claim wasn't exactly what I told him to say and I was face palm all over when I saw it. He literally said it doesn't matter as he can't die if I was still alive, and could literally stand out and claim leader. On the other hand, I was pushing for the concede while waiting for Caller's reply, so yeah. Also keep in mind, role claiming in Mafia and role claiming in this game is totally different. If you don't have good knowledge about Three Kingdoms, the characters names and their role abilities you claim might not make sense to those who actually know about the history. I doubt most of you could come up with a Meng Huo role, (which actually existed in game). I mean small things like L's Sun Ren name claim, and Trez's Cao Pi ability claim, makes zero sense.
I think you guys could have won.. all you to do was recruit me and/or BrownBear, and then Radfield and tell us. I would have switched loyalty immediately - dunno about BrownBear - and could easily have said, "oh Fishball is neutral".
It might have been tough if Falcynn came back and started being active and watched the right people. You had to get BrownBear after me though for the KP - he might have been a sacrificial lamb at some point, but there was no way you would get him with a day lynch, until you guys were dominating.
If you didn't recruit me or BB that night it would have been a toss-up, because, if the town agreed to kill BC and check you (Fishball), then BB and I were planning or switching anyway lol. So BC would have been dead the next day.
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On May 28 2010 05:14 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 04:58 DarthThienAn wrote:On May 28 2010 03:40 Fishball wrote:On May 27 2010 21:52 Hesmyrr wrote:
I think it was all about charisma and public conception; I still recall how most people were skeptical of my plan until Lost Romantic and L was caught consecutively. If that had not happened I don't think enough people would have got behind the plan for neutral victory to work. Honestly most people came into this game expecting faction fight, so turning people against it initially was the hardest task- which is why I over-villainized faction leaders day 1 immediately after Caller threw out some fuel to work with. After THAT post no one was going to openly support the idea of faction fight (even neutrals since their primary goal is to survive, which is not going against town's consensus naturally does. And no leader would have recruited the neutral who planted target on himself.) I would have immediately taken the risk, reveal myself to the first recruit (mouthpiece was necessary to organize future recruits after all) and appease him/her as best as I can lol.
Yellow Turban, because its members could not be recruited, was closest to the actual cult and could have been very powerful had not Trezquet23 drew so much suspicion to himself. If you knew you were going to get checked I would definitely have sent him PM in advance that I was recruiting him. 'Appease' is key word here- when idea of neutral victory got dominant the power balance between recruiter and neutrals got reversed. There seem to be plenty of opinions who said this was not the game was meant to be played so if you were nice about it, I think people would have been acceptable. Hell, L even said "lol your plan sucks b/c this" and I still tried my hardest to save him before giving up for moral victory. I am especially curious after knowing Fishball's ability why he gave up- Fishball was seen as pro-town by day 2~3, so if he worked to keep people away from suspecting his true ability, BC could potentially have lived just enough to make it.
My theorycraft best plan for the what leaders should have done
1) Have the recruited members contact me or L. Set up an alliance whose conduit will be recruited members so that faction leaders identity can necessarily be kept secret. I had idea about using anonymous quickboard.
2) Role-claim wisely. I did it several times as Mafia and it isn't that hard -_- Almost all leaders got caught because of that. Fishball also needed to fake-role/nameclaim so BC's strength became that much stronger.
3) BC publicly claims himself as faction leader, or deliberately give off an "scumslip". Use all three faction members to spread ideas that BC must be lynched.
BC survives. 3 people recruited night 2, L is protected (by me) and BC is immune. You really think 4 different leaders would agree on this ? Even if they do, the "recruited members" might not even listen to the leaders. Hell they could even reveal X/Y/Z is the leader to the public. As for role claiming, that was pretty bad. BC's role claim wasn't exactly what I told him to say and I was face palm all over when I saw it. He literally said it doesn't matter as he can't die if I was still alive, and could literally stand out and claim leader. On the other hand, I was pushing for the concede while waiting for Caller's reply, so yeah. Also keep in mind, role claiming in Mafia and role claiming in this game is totally different. If you don't have good knowledge about Three Kingdoms, the characters names and their role abilities you claim might not make sense to those who actually know about the history. I doubt most of you could come up with a Meng Huo role, (which actually existed in game). I mean small things like L's Sun Ren name claim, and Trez's Cao Pi ability claim, makes zero sense. I think you guys could have won.. all you to do was recruit me and/or BrownBear, and then Radfield and tell us. I would have switched loyalty immediately - dunno about BrownBear - and could easily have said, "oh Fishball is neutral". It might have been tough if Falcynn came back and started being active and watched the right people. You had to get BrownBear after me though for the KP - he might have been a sacrificial lamb at some point, but there was no way you would get him with a day lynch, until you guys were dominating. If you didn't recruit me or BB that night it would have been a toss-up, because, if the town agreed to kill BC and check you (Fishball), then BB and I were planning or switching anyway lol. So BC would have been dead the next day. If they figured me out as leader, xelin could just roleblock me nightly preventing me from recruiting people. Since no one had to be loyal to who recruited them, didn't matter. For shu to win required like, 6 more game days. Chances of living that long, or recruiting perfectly, or not getting screwed by my own recruits was next to impossible.
Yeah, I mean, I see why you wouldn't want to try. It really was next to impossible and probably not worth the effort lol.
On May 28 2010 05:21 Abenson wrote:
I'm still confused.
But I think I was on the winning team :D
...Abenson man. I don't get you. You're like BM - in a bad way - except that you're like a lost child instead of a messed-up adult.
On May 28 2010 05:22 Scamp wrote:
Jugan wins when I win, even if he's dead.
I win if he wins, even if I'm dead.
We were masons. I'm serious.
I'm also serious in that that's it. That's all I got.
Ouch that's pretty lame lol. So I guess you two both won? lol.
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On May 28 2010 08:05 Fishball wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 04:58 DarthThienAn wrote:On May 28 2010 03:40 Fishball wrote:On May 27 2010 21:52 Hesmyrr wrote:
I think it was all about charisma and public conception; I still recall how most people were skeptical of my plan until Lost Romantic and L was caught consecutively. If that had not happened I don't think enough people would have got behind the plan for neutral victory to work. Honestly most people came into this game expecting faction fight, so turning people against it initially was the hardest task- which is why I over-villainized faction leaders day 1 immediately after Caller threw out some fuel to work with. After THAT post no one was going to openly support the idea of faction fight (even neutrals since their primary goal is to survive, which is not going against town's consensus naturally does. And no leader would have recruited the neutral who planted target on himself.) I would have immediately taken the risk, reveal myself to the first recruit (mouthpiece was necessary to organize future recruits after all) and appease him/her as best as I can lol.
Yellow Turban, because its members could not be recruited, was closest to the actual cult and could have been very powerful had not Trezquet23 drew so much suspicion to himself. If you knew you were going to get checked I would definitely have sent him PM in advance that I was recruiting him. 'Appease' is key word here- when idea of neutral victory got dominant the power balance between recruiter and neutrals got reversed. There seem to be plenty of opinions who said this was not the game was meant to be played so if you were nice about it, I think people would have been acceptable. Hell, L even said "lol your plan sucks b/c this" and I still tried my hardest to save him before giving up for moral victory. I am especially curious after knowing Fishball's ability why he gave up- Fishball was seen as pro-town by day 2~3, so if he worked to keep people away from suspecting his true ability, BC could potentially have lived just enough to make it.
My theorycraft best plan for the what leaders should have done
1) Have the recruited members contact me or L. Set up an alliance whose conduit will be recruited members so that faction leaders identity can necessarily be kept secret. I had idea about using anonymous quickboard.
2) Role-claim wisely. I did it several times as Mafia and it isn't that hard -_- Almost all leaders got caught because of that. Fishball also needed to fake-role/nameclaim so BC's strength became that much stronger.
3) BC publicly claims himself as faction leader, or deliberately give off an "scumslip". Use all three faction members to spread ideas that BC must be lynched.
BC survives. 3 people recruited night 2, L is protected (by me) and BC is immune. You really think 4 different leaders would agree on this ? Even if they do, the "recruited members" might not even listen to the leaders. Hell they could even reveal X/Y/Z is the leader to the public. As for role claiming, that was pretty bad. BC's role claim wasn't exactly what I told him to say and I was face palm all over when I saw it. He literally said it doesn't matter as he can't die if I was still alive, and could literally stand out and claim leader. On the other hand, I was pushing for the concede while waiting for Caller's reply, so yeah. Also keep in mind, role claiming in Mafia and role claiming in this game is totally different. If you don't have good knowledge about Three Kingdoms, the characters names and their role abilities you claim might not make sense to those who actually know about the history. I doubt most of you could come up with a Meng Huo role, (which actually existed in game). I mean small things like L's Sun Ren name claim, and Trez's Cao Pi ability claim, makes zero sense. I think you guys could have won.. all you to do was recruit me and/or BrownBear, and then Radfield and tell us. I would have switched loyalty immediately - dunno about BrownBear - and could easily have said, "oh Fishball is neutral". It might have been tough if Falcynn came back and started being active and watched the right people. You had to get BrownBear after me though for the KP - he might have been a sacrificial lamb at some point, but there was no way you would get him with a day lynch, until you guys were dominating. If you didn't recruit me or BB that night it would have been a toss-up, because, if the town agreed to kill BC and check you (Fishball), then BB and I were planning or switching anyway lol. So BC would have been dead the next day. Your ideas are based on the assumption that we know for sure you will remain loyal to us. Given the two live examples in game, I don't think we'll ever even bother to take the chance and waste more time. Even if you publicly announce "I will remain loyal to whoever recruits me", we still wouldn't budge, as there is literally nothing to backup your statement. The only way we'll be willing to try, is if the rules are set for your to remain loyal. You remember at the very beginning when I questioned the rules regarding this? That was before I was Shu, when I was still neutral. I was simply questioning the flaws of the rules at that time, and it was the exact same flaw that hit us at the end. Also, I don't quite get this. Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 04:58 DarthThienAn wrote:
If you didn't recruit me or BB that night it would have been a toss-up, because, if the town agreed to kill BC and check you (Fishball), then BB and I were planning or switching anyway lol. So BC would have been dead the next day. What do you mean BC would have been dead the next day? BC can't die even if a nuclear bomb went off. As long as I'm alive, he lives, because I am ![[image loading]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DeLF7AaeNHU/SYBBe_cwqfI/AAAAAAAAAJ4/RR_FYVX-b1k/s400/dw_0004.jpg)
yeah, well, I really disagree with people who "stayed" loyal to anything, including the town. Just like you play for the town if you're town and you play for mafia if you're mafia... guess you can't do anything about that one. Personally, if I were hosting, I would have banned Hesmyrr and Tricode for turning on your leaders (but it's not their fault since Caller allowed it), and said that you should play for your own faction. The setup in general had a lot of loopholes.
uhhh, the next day as in Day 4 - you would have died Night 4 by BB, and then I would have had my check to confirm BC as green, so then we would lynch him.
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On May 28 2010 10:01 Abenson wrote:
I'm actually younger than you probably think ;P
I treat everyone on TL as ageless o.O.
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On May 28 2010 14:19 L wrote:Show nested quote +Just like you play for the town if you're town and you play for mafia if you're mafia... guess you can't do anything about that one. We typically banned any player that gave up their team in a fit of rage. Why that isnt' being done here is probably because the teams weren't permanent.
Yeah, that's what I meant when I said the setup had loopholes. Still, I'd understand it if they had been recruited to another faction, and THEN turned on their old leaders. But no, they just straight up turned on their current leaders lol... that part of the whole thing was what I disliked.
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EPT
