EPT[WCG] 2011 Busan Grand Finals Discussion - Page 78
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Darkchylde
United States473 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On December 11 2011 17:38 daemir wrote: but...they don't anymore. So he isn't the better AD player now. I guess you could say that. On December 11 2011 17:39 Aggroboy wrote: Only because it's Chaox + Xpecial versus Chauster + Elementz. Swap the supports and see what happens. Honestly I don't think it's an issue with the support player. Xpecial is better than Elementz, but at this WCG Chauster wasn't playing as solid despite having Xpecial laning with him. Chaox did quite well with Elementz in lane. Only time Chaox failed was out of lane when he just full retard derped. | ||
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On December 11 2011 17:39 Aggroboy wrote: Only because it's Chaox + Xpecial versus Chauster + Elementz. Swap the supports and see what happens. Better clutch plays, better 5v5 positioning, ability to finish kills, better 1v1 skill, ability to AP mid against heavyweights like Reginald. Heck, just put Chaox against Chauster 1v1 mid Ezreal best of series. Chauster's also probably the worst AD carry in terms of CSing. Can always count on him to lose in CS. He does play Triforce champs really well (Ez, Corki), but his standard AD champs are pretty meh. On December 11 2011 17:49 Darkchylde wrote: My friend and I were having the same argument. Old school solo lane was very unforgiving and with the current ad/support bot it allows for a more farm based lane and mistakes are easily looked over. Just play passive and get healed up. You do 1-2 bad trades in solomid AD and you're fucked vs a good laner. I'm a Doublelift fanboy so I'd take him over all the aforementioned AD carries but he was a Blitz player back in the ad mid era so can't really compare him to the solomid AD greats. Give him some time to mesh with the team and hopefully CLG will show some good results. As a team overall though, I like TSM and it looks like their gaming house is showing some great results. Mechanically Doublelift is probably the best in terms of raw skill. The micro he has on AD carries is amazing, and the guy rarely misses any CS. He just happens to have this reputation of derping and having poor positioning in teamfights as he is the number one face checker. | ||
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
chaox farms better and he has his own clutch moments and plays too, he is also one of the ADs that actually does build that QSS regularly and remember to use it in battle >_> all these has beens, if X then Y and weird scenarios don't really matter to me, it's a 5v5 game and bot lane is nearly always AD+support vs AD+support. and yes agree that doublelift outfarms both of them and his vayne is pretty damn awesome to watch. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 11 2011 17:59 Roffles wrote: Chauster's also probably the worst AD carry in terms of CSing. Can always count on him to lose in CS. He does play Triforce champs really well (Ez, Corki), but his standard AD champs are pretty meh. A lot of this has to do with Hotshot/Saint though (Elementz has blogged about this)--they're both extremely aggressive in taking farm, and past laning phase (where Chauster usually starts to drop off), both players take a lot of farm from pushed lanes, even when the champ selection dictates that Chauster should be getting more farm. Somewhat related, this is one of my biggest problems with Hotshot's play--he farms like he's a 1st/2nd position carry when he's playing champions on more supportive roles. If you're Cho'gath or Galio, farm has way more diminishing returns on you than on harder carries. Especially if you've got TP and are going to naturally get to clean up some farm because of it, let your damn carries actually take farm when a pushed lane comes toward your side of the map. Chauster's CS was absolutely not a problem when AD carries played solo lanes because at the time, Hotshot was playing 4th/5th position bot lane, and Saint wasn't jungling for CLG yet. | ||
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Navi
5286 Posts
back when kobe was the jungler and hotshot was playing 4th or 5th position heroes, chauster had no problem having #1 cs in game because kobe would generally get back to the jungle after ganking, whereas saint likes to shove in the lane before getting back to the jungle (which isn't necessarily better or worse, but is worth noting) and in teampushes hotshot takes a lot of the cs even when he already has his core, which is especially detrimental when he's playing heroes that don't have damage that scales multiplicative-ly off of farm (cho etc) i don't think chauster is any worse than he was when he was the best player in the game, other people have definitely caught up a lot and what he excelled at (gauging who would win exchanges to a T, playing safe while capitalizing on small mistakes viciously) were all more relevant in ad v ad and ad v ap matchups (especially because individual autoattack pokes do a lot more as an AD, and are more easy to take advantage of in 1v1s) i think there are things that every player has certain skills, habits, and levels of proficiency in overall play that shine out in certain comps, metas, and champions. the last should be most relevant to every player because its most easy to see in every player (hotshot's nidalee, heck every league player's favorite champion(s)). hotshot for example is good at finding the time to farm and being able to get that farm effectively, which makes him a strong splitpushing nidalee as well as a good solo queuer because he can ignore the pleas of his teammates for aid and get really farmed and push like a boss, but is more ineffectual in typical arranged comps (but good for splitpushing and poke comps if he's running nidalee). chauster's skillset imo is not as effective in duo lane and having a good portion of his farm taken from him in team pushes doesn't help him either lol | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
oddone's calling adheres a bit too much to hard and fast rules, like if a lane is pushed he'll assume that the person being pushed won't ever leave lane, which sometimes isn't true. he's really focused on lane pressure and doesnt respond well when his teammates don't play like he wants them to, whereas saint is more flexible and knows exactly what to do from any given situation dyrus is just a fucking good toplane, probably the best. regi probably best mid right now too. he'd fucking own chauster, idk what you guys are talking about with 'chauster #1 ap mid" and yeah like everybody else has been saying, chaox and doublelift >> chauster for AD bot | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On December 11 2011 18:01 daemir wrote: well forgive me for not giving too much about what could been, what has been, or if it was 1v1 with ad or double ez matchup or whatever the hell you can name up, chau being imba 1v1 ok cool, but that's not what ad's do nowdays so...yea. chaox farms better and he has his own clutch moments and plays too, he is also one of the ADs that actually does build that QSS regularly and remember to use it in battle >_> all these has beens, if X then Y and weird scenarios don't really matter to me, it's a 5v5 game and bot lane is nearly always AD+support vs AD+support. and yes agree that doublelift outfarms both of them and his vayne is pretty damn awesome to watch. The main issue I have is that people see Chauster not being as good as some of his peers at AD carry bot and proceed to talk shit about him like he's a bad player. He could very well be the best overall NA player still. At the very least he's the most versatile by far. I dunno, maybe it's cause I like him but it bothers me how often his skill gets shit talked by people new to the competitive LoL scene. And I'm not saying you're doing that, cause I agree with you that there are plenty of AD carries who are better than him in the current meta. edit: Oh hey, see, people shitting on Chauster skill while I type this up  . Like I said on last page or so, go look up the VODs where Chauster was playing AP mid for CLG while jiji was on AD carry. Chauster beat Regi in lane every fucking scrim. When they played SK a few months ago Chauster's Brand was 50 CS ahead of ocelote. Dyrus and Reginald have both claimed that they never win lane against Chauster. The guy's a fucking boss at laning. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On December 11 2011 19:31 overt wrote: The main issue I have is that people see Chauster not being as good as some of his peers at AD carry bot and proceed to talk shit about him like he's a bad player. He could very well be the best overall NA player still. At the very least he's the most versatile by far. I dunno, maybe it's cause I like him but it bothers me how often his skill gets shit talked by people new to the competitive LoL scene. And I'm not saying you're doing that, cause I agree with you that there are plenty of AD carries who are better than him in the current meta. edit: Oh hey, see, people shitting on Chauster skill while I type this up . Like I said on last page or so, go look up the VODs where Chauster was playing AP mid for CLG while jiji was on AD carry. Chauster beat Regi in lane every fucking scrim. When they played SK a few months ago Chauster's Brand was 50 CS ahead of ocelote. Dyrus and Reginald have both claimed that they never win lane against Chauster. The guy's a fucking boss at laning.I don't think many, if any, people are claiming he's a bad player. He's definitely one of the best solo laners in the game by a good margin. The problem is that currently, he plays a duo lane atm and he simply just doesn't play a duo lane as well as the other duo laners out there. I honestly am not quite sure why CLG didn't put him as their solo mid and have jiji play AD. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
On December 11 2011 19:57 NeoIllusions wrote: Chauster is the most versatile on CLG. jiji's AP is a lot better than his AD. Ironically, jiji's best AD is Vayne. But even then, he's farming champions, not so much CSing. sorry could you spell out the irony? thanks | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
What's ironic is that most ADs require you to be patient and farm up but jiji's best AD is Vayne, which requires you to tumble in and aggro. His Cait and Kog, for example, was never as good as say Chaox's. | ||
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emucxg
Finland4559 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ioy9r.jpg) | ||
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TieN.nS)
United States2131 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On December 11 2011 20:22 TieN.nS) wrote: Doublelift considers Chauster to be a better AD than him but random TLers know best~ I lol'd. People don't seem to realize how godly Chaox looks because he gets the best support in the world. hi5 Eyedrinker. | ||
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
And talk about a anticlimactic finals, how did that polish team even reach it? Ugh.. | ||
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Navi
5286 Posts
good supports are hard to come by because most people have an aversion to supporting, and as a result don't get into the finesse of the role (not that i'm one of those who have... but respect to dedicated support players) | ||
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
Even in solo queue without "best support in the world" he's performing better than chauster. Just saying that chauster had a slightly worse support is the reason why he's worse is just looking at it from one angle and ignoring everything else. But since this is just all opinions vs opinions we could go on forever so there's no point to even argue this. | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On December 11 2011 20:53 Senx wrote: Its not that simple though, even looking at teamfights Chaox is often in better position and consinstantly gets more kills. Even in solo queue without "best support in the world" he's performing better than chauster. Just saying that chauster had a slightly worse support is the reason why he's worse is just looking at it from one angle and ignoring everything else. But since this is just all opinions vs opinions we could go on forever so there's no point to even argue this. Always find it funny when people do that, I am guilty of doing it too, but it's simply an attempt to make your word the last. | ||
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
On December 11 2011 20:57 d(O.o)a wrote: Always find it funny when people do that, I am guilty of doing it too, but it's simply an attempt to make your word the last. I know I'm such a scumbag :/ | ||
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