EPT[WCG] 2011 Busan Grand Finals Discussion - Page 77
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Loomies
United States645 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On December 11 2011 16:08 kidd wrote: Gotta disagree with saint being better than theoddone, especially when he's working with a really solid mid in regi. I felt like when CLG lost, theoddone still didn't have bad games and kept them in it then when they won, they got leads off of his and hotshot's play. Dyrus has to be the best top player imo so I agree with that. His gank dodge teleport to dragon was art. TOO is a really really good jungler, don't get me wrong. It's just that his playstyle is more of a support-jungler playstyle, while Saint is more about aggressive plays and hardcore carrying. I won't say that TOO is worse than Saint, but it does seem that Saint's style works better with Regi than TOO. | ||
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Ferrose
United States11378 Posts
On December 11 2011 16:09 BlackPaladin wrote: Well duo bot is a lot different than solo lanes. At least chauster is consistently farmed so no big deal really. Yeah but in that last game Graves had like 50 more CS than him... | ||
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DEN1ED
United States1087 Posts
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
On December 11 2011 16:08 kidd wrote: Gotta disagree with saint being better than theoddone, especially when he's working with a really solid mid in regi. I felt like when CLG lost, theoddone still didn't have bad games and kept them in it then when they won, they got leads off of his and hotshot's play. Dyrus has to be the best top player imo so I agree with that. His gank dodge teleport to dragon was art. TOO isn't bad but saint is still better. You need to take into account that it's saint making the calls for CDE. Saints ability to know what to do in situations and consistently give his team advantages by doing so is what makes his team win. He's undeniably the best decision maker in NA. Plus saibt doesn't miss smites....twice in a row....losing his team the game that would have been a win. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On December 11 2011 16:13 Ferrose wrote: Yeah but in that last game Graves had like 50 more CS than him... Yes, other ADs generally out CS Chauster in duo lane. I think it's because he tries to get super aggressive as if he's in a solo lane and he still hasn't realized that it doesn't work. Mostly cause I think every other support in NA plays passive. Which is why I think he'll do fine as support since Doublelift also likes the super aggressive style that Chauster plays. I dunno if you can find any VODs of their scrims but try to find some of the games where Chauster got to solo Reginald when he was AP mid. Iirc Chauster won lane every time against Regi. Dyrus has complained before that he can never beat Chauster in lane. I kind of wish that CLG would let him solo lanes again but I guess they think him on support with HSGG/jiji soloing is better than having one of those two play support. It makes me really sad to see a guy who, for nearly a year, was considered the best player in LoL to be just a mediocre AD carry.  | ||
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Pinith
651 Posts
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tobi9999
United States1966 Posts
On December 11 2011 16:15 BlackPaladin wrote: TOO isn't bad but saint is still better. You need to take into account that it's saint making the calls for CDE. Saints ability to know what to do in situations and consistently give his team advantages by doing so is what makes his team win. He's undeniably the best decision maker in NA. Plus saibt doesn't miss smites....twice in a row....losing his team the game that would have been a win. 2nd time oddone wasn't even there. also, I don't agree that saint is the best playcaller, he just makes risky calls that look genius if pulled off, but lose the game when they don't. I've seen him lose so many games in both scrims and solo queue by making a dumbass call. Saint isn't level headed at all, I'd say that the best play caller is either Jatt or Dan Dinh, who are calm and consistent. | ||
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jacosajh
2919 Posts
On December 11 2011 16:15 BlackPaladin wrote: TOO isn't bad but saint is still better. You need to take into account that it's saint making the calls for CDE. Saints ability to know what to do in situations and consistently give his team advantages by doing so is what makes his team win. He's undeniably the best decision maker in NA. Plus saibt doesn't miss smites....twice in a row....losing his team the game that would have been a win. knowing saint and dyrus... saint probably told him to do it, "like right now, RIGHT NOW" dyrus doesn't usually tp in games unless told and saint ALWAYS says "everyone go dragon like right now, right now right now right now, now now now" | ||
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Aggroboy
4 Posts
On December 11 2011 15:59 Shifft wrote: but I feel Chaox is more solid than Chauster imo IMHO Chauster is a way better AD than Chaox. He is far better mechanically and makes clutch plays, such as the earlier valkyrie to heal to save Xpecial. Chaox won't beat him 1v1 in any best of series. On TSM Chaox has Xpecial which is a really good support, 2v2 they beat out Elementz and Chauster bot. Also Chauster is let down by bad team chemistry of CLG. The fact that he has to play support for CLG, and supporting an AD carry vastly inferior to him, is just epic facepalm. | ||
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
I don't agree with him going support though, I don't think he is gonna do that long, gonna be more changes or he gets bored of it or something. saint makes some bad calls too and sometimes after he done one he goes like "wow that was a terrible idea" so it's not like he has some omniscient understanding of game stages, but he is really good at jungling and makes good calls more often than bad calls, not faulting him for that. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On December 11 2011 16:28 Aggroboy wrote: IMHO Chauster is a way better AD than Chaox. He is far better mechanically and makes clutch plays, such as the earlier valkyrie to heal to save Xpecial. Chaox won't beat him 1v1 in any best of series. On TSM Chaox has Xpecial which is a really good support, 2v2 they beat out Elementz and Chauster bot. Also Chauster is let down by bad team chemistry of CLG. The fact that he has to play support for CLG, and supporting an AD carry vastly inferior to him, is just epic facepalm. I'm a pretty huge Chauster/jiji fanboy. They're my two favorite players. I don't think that Chauster is better than Chaox in the current meta. He just doesn't perform anywhere near his potential in a duo lane. Yeah, if it's a 1v1 old school US AD solo mid lane I think Chauster would win against any AD carry. I think he'd beat out any AP carry too. But honestly he gets out CS'd almost every game when he's AD carry and that's pretty hard to ignore. | ||
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
On December 11 2011 16:23 tobi9999 wrote: 2nd time oddone wasn't even there. also, I don't agree that saint is the best playcaller, he just makes risky calls that look genius if pulled off, but lose the game when they don't. I've seen him lose so many games in both scrims and solo queue by making a dumbass call. Saint isn't level headed at all, I'd say that the best play caller is either Jatt or Dan Dinh, who are calm and consistent. Well I don't really watch Jatt so i can't say anything there. But yeah i think dan and saint are on about the same level. I watch both of their streams a lot. I just feel that saints more aggressive play and micromanagment of the team is bettet overall, but that's obviously personal opinion. Too bad clg suffers from hotheadnidaleegg often mudding up saints calls, jiji's slump, and the bot lane drama. | ||
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Demonace34
United States2493 Posts
On December 11 2011 16:35 BlackPaladin wrote: Well I don't really watch Jatt so i can't say anything there. But yeah i think dan and saint are on about the same level. I watch both of their streams a lot. I just feel that saints more aggressive play and micromanagment of the team is bettet overall, but that's obviously personal opinion. Too bad clg suffers from hotheadnidaleegg often mudding up saints calls, jiji's slump, and the bot lane drama. TOO is better at the disruption and being up in your face part of jungling, Saint is more about trying to do damage and pull off crazy shit. Whenever TSM really is working together and TOO is on Maokai they just look unstoppable. Also I wouldn't even bring up shot calling when trying to compare them, Saint is a shotcaller, TOO isn't...so there isn't much to discuss. If we do bring up only the shotcalling of SV I would agree with the person above you, he either looks like a genius or looks like he is trying to throw the game. He is smart most of the time, but tends to get risky as hell the better he is doing. I think that is the main problem CLG has most of the time, they are all overconfident and it turns into dumb risky plays that either look epic or just fall flat. SV with a more level headed team does look scary though. Either way both of them are really good, I'd choose TOO myself, but if I needed a shotcaller and a jungler I'd pick SV. Also just found out from reddit that TOO was level 14 when the Udyr was level 17 so as long as Udyr was good with smite he could take it from TOO. If jiji would of yellow carded or they all would of turned on Udyr they would of got baron. | ||
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hyptonic
2155 Posts
On December 11 2011 16:28 Aggroboy wrote: IMHO Chauster is a way better AD than Chaox. He is far better mechanically and makes clutch plays, such as the earlier valkyrie to heal to save Xpecial. Chaox won't beat him 1v1 in any best of series. On TSM Chaox has Xpecial which is a really good support, 2v2 they beat out Elementz and Chauster bot. Also Chauster is let down by bad team chemistry of CLG. The fact that he has to play support for CLG, and supporting an AD carry vastly inferior to him, is just epic facepalm. how is chauster better mechanically when chaox consistently farms better? | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On December 11 2011 17:12 hyptonic wrote: how is chauster better mechanically when chaox consistently farms better? chauster is more of a solo lane player. chaox is better in a duo lane. put chauster and chaox 1v1 in solo and chauster would probably poop all over chaox. Have Chauster/X v. Chaox/X in a 2v2 and Chaox definitely outplays Chauster. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On December 11 2011 17:22 koreasilver wrote: .... so Chaox is the better AD player. in the current meta, yea. Back when AD carries took solos Chauster was really really good. | ||
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
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Aggroboy
4 Posts
On December 11 2011 17:19 Ryuu314 wrote: Have Chauster/X v. Chaox/X in a 2v2 and Chaox definitely outplays Chauster. Only because it's Chaox + Xpecial versus Chauster + Elementz. Swap the supports and see what happens. On December 11 2011 17:12 hyptonic wrote: how is chauster better mechanically when chaox consistently farms better? Better clutch plays, better 5v5 positioning, ability to finish kills, better 1v1 skill, ability to AP mid against heavyweights like Reginald. Heck, just put Chaox against Chauster 1v1 mid Ezreal best of series. | ||
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