|
United States37500 Posts
Welcome to the Patch Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around the most recent patch and gameplay on the live client.
Non-gameplay discussion should go in the General Discussion thread.
Non-League of Legends dicsussion should go in the LiquidLegends Lounge.
Certain topics are blacklisted from Patch Discussion and they include:- "Elo hell"
- The Tribunal
- Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
- "What is a tank" (and other vague monikers)
- Unjustified game theory / speculative discussion about the game
- Champion balance and game design discussion
Additionally, the TL LoL Ten Commandments are available for you to reference if you have any questions about this subforum.
Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions. Lastly, confine QQing and bragging to their respective threads.
There is no new champion this patch.
Patch 5.21: Live on Nov. 11th, 2015
+ Show Spoiler [Previous GD Threads & Patch Notes] +
|
Noticed that a bunch of abilities were changed to enter cooldown on buff expiration, not on cast. I guess they want to preemptively nerf CDR on those champions
|
Still mildly disappointed they went with the whole 'all-in' thing for Trist. Always thought the sieging and long-range play were the more fun parts of her, not the suicidal rocket jump. Meh.
Interesting that Grievous Wounds no longer affects getting healed by Soraka/Sona/etc.
Didn't notice Rift Herald's buff only applied to the one who killed it. I guess giving it to everyone would've been kind of crazy. Certainly sounded crazy. It's hard to see that and the TP change pushing TP out more than occasionally, but who knows. I'd love to actually fight people...
I'm glad Zephyr's dead. Good riddance.
AD itemization's interesting. They added choice mostly through utility and unique passives. Kind of makes a lot of sense in hindsight. Notably you can buy different early items for health or armor stacking, with BotRK (and math) making ASPD carries better against health stacking than Crit carries and vice versa. They've alleviated some BS with crit too. Feels a lot shittier to get hit with the 1 in 7 crit of old Zeal than the 1 in 5 of new Zeal, and Avarice is dead now.
With Stealth Wards gone, I wonder how likely it is that we'll see the upgraded Targon Sightstone around midgame on certain tops.
20% tenacity? That's... why, Riot.
Maw looks slightly better, I guess? Probably about matches the old values with the pen, if I were guessing, only it's probably slightly more attractive to ADCs. I have no idea why the fuck they thought it was 'never an efficient combination of stats.
RIP one in seven Zed/Talon crits.
Tiamat losing the cleave is mildly infuriating. Not a clue why they'd put Black Cleaver so close to its old awkward stat values, but ok.
RIP one in ten Tforce crits.
Looking at just how many AD items got split into new components, they basically fundamentally separated ADC itemization from general items from ADC items. Thankfully doesn't look as bloated as I thought it would.
|
|
|
Hell, it's about time.
Really looking forward to this season. Everything is bright and new and Riot isn't doing a massive jungle rehaul that they will make suck 2 months down the line!
|
I like most changes, except the minion changes. +90% damage while you are ahead? So you just have to keep them busy and your lanes push in really fast?
Also, did someone look at the ancient coin wording? it says
"FAVOR GOLD GENERATION 3 gold when a nearby enemy minion dies ⇒ 4 gold when a nearby minion dies"
Does that mean, it gives you gold when friendly minions die or did they just forget the enemy? Because it says enemy on the upgrades
|
+90% damage when you're 3 levels ahead and you've killed two turrets in the lane. Three average levels is an enormous advantage.
|
MINION DAMAGE BONUS If your team's average level is higher than the enemy's, your minions deal 10% bonus damage to enemy minions. If you've taken cumulatively more turrets than the enemy team, damage is further increased by 10% for each turret you have over your opponents.
You don't need a massive lead to get free wave pushes.
|
On November 11 2015 06:35 Vallelol wrote:
I like most changes, except the minion changes. +90% damage while you are ahead? So you just have to keep them busy and your lanes push in really fast?
Also, did someone look at the ancient coin wording? it says
"FAVOR GOLD GENERATION 3 gold when a nearby enemy minion dies ⇒ 4 gold when a nearby minion dies"
Does that mean, it gives you gold when friendly minions die or did they just forget the enemy? Because it says enemy on the upgrades
Common sense tells me that is a typo.
|
Wait wtf... they took cleave off of Tiamat? I like a lot of the less contrived changes, but why?
No one will ever build it ever.
|
On November 11 2015 08:26 iCanada wrote:
Wait wtf... they took cleave off of Tiamat? I like a lot of the less contrived changes, but why?
No one will ever build it ever.
Because it costs 1200g now.
|
Titanic and Ravenous still have the cleave. It's now 1200 instead of 1900 as well. It's just... that's a long time for wave clear for a number of champs. Notably Panth.
This really reminds me how badly Panth needs any attention at all. And not fucking Jungle Panth either.
|
Is that the passive or the active? Or both? If it still has active it's nbd, if not its huge nerf.
Notes are vague.
|
Should help against involuntary pushing for champs that wanna get hydra first though.
|
i'm a little bit unsure of how these minion scaling changes will work out
|
|
|
On November 11 2015 09:25 Osmoses wrote:
Should help against involuntary pushing for champs that wanna get hydra first though.
Yeah, if it is just passive on hit cleave you could argue it's a buff on most champs that buy it.
|
Australia18228 Posts
Elise has Talisman as recommended but Machete is way better
Graves jungle speed is actually decent
got 2:57 doing unleashed golem->red->blue
|
I wonder if new level 1 base AD from ADC's will make last hitting easier under turret before pickaxe/bf sword.
Also, soraka sounds a lot more op'd now with grevious wound change.
|
yo Neo it still says patch 5.21 in your OP
|
Does the new 1-5 ranked mode come with this patch or do we have to wait for the new Clown fiesta ranked queue ? I can't wait to go to bronze with my mates !
|
I think it will come a bit later in the patch, several days or a week
|
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
I guess new borders are going to be distributed once rankeds are disabled?
I have to admit that they look good.
Also I was very sceptic if it comes to so many changes but after playing a couple of games I've changed my mind. New itemization, new meta, ADC buffs are awesome.
I just have no idea which potions/items to start on certain champions, especially on Hecarim. I just start LS/3 pots...
Also Death's Dance looks good on paper, gotta play more games to have some opinion on it.
|
The Dark Seal seems like a must buy on most AP mids to me, it's basically a stacking item that already gives good value without any stacks.
I've been seeing a bunch of people build the new Guinsoo's. I'm not quite sure whether I like it or not, but it doesn't seem too weak to me. Just wondering if there are better options.
|
first test. Runnans does not effect love tap rip.
|
Played a few games and the nerfed attack speed across the board means that BotRK is pretty much mandatory as the lifesteal item for AA based ADCs if you can't just chunk dudes with AD spell dmg.
So much for meaningful choices in AD itemization 
|
Lustboy was recommending doing a pitstop zeal with the crit lifesteal mastery for your early game lifesteal needs then delaying an actual lifesteal item till much later, I tried it in my MF game it felt aiight.
|
Yo what constitutes a good jungle clear now? Is able to full clear once? Twice? Just gave jungle Jax a try, 6 18 6, manages full clear and basically never drops below 95% hp after, really good clear speed after etc etc, tooth and nail really helps him with mana sustain for W use on camps + jumping around jungle walls with trinket + jungle item wards
Correction: With pots instead of flask Jax manages full clear at full hp period.
|
On November 12 2015 14:16 Slusher wrote:
Lustboy was recommending doing a pitstop zeal with the crit lifesteal mastery for your early game lifesteal needs then delaying an actual lifesteal item till much later, I tried it in my MF game it felt aiight.
BF->primary AS/Crit item->Finish IE seems a lot stronger on ADC's (that aren't ashe who did this last season too) just due to the lower AS scaling and the free lifesteal in general.
|
It's probably not good for anything, but I tested and found out that Shiv + the new single target Shiv work together, so when you have 100 stacks you have extended range lightning + bonus single target damage. Didn't feel like the stacks came twice as fast though, so it's minimal synergy.
|
On November 12 2015 14:56 TheHumanSensation wrote:
It's probably not good for anything, but I tested and found out that Shiv + the new single target Shiv work together, so when you have 100 stacks you have extended range lightning + bonus single target damage. Didn't feel like the stacks came twice as fast though, so it's minimal synergy.
Can you buy that item on melee champs? I think that's be pretty good on volibear. The range would be godlike with flip, the as scales well with his ult as well.
|
On November 12 2015 14:56 TheHumanSensation wrote:
It's probably not good for anything, but I tested and found out that Shiv + the new single target Shiv work together, so when you have 100 stacks you have extended range lightning + bonus single target damage. Didn't feel like the stacks came twice as fast though, so it's minimal synergy.
Yeah, all the Energized buffs stack.
|
cdr vs. pen in the middle tree is a hard choice geez
|
Played NuQuinn(top). Kinda like it.
Because your Q and E both proc your passive you can do a lot of damage really really fast with it, as well as juggle/time it so that your W AS buff is basically permanent.
Because your ult still does damage you basically just keep it up all the time when you're 5 with your team, then pop it right as you do something interesting. Mainly it lets you catch waves and then return to your team. So as opposed to a dedicated split it simply lets you go defend a split and then return to your team.
I feel like you can go 1/2 offensive -> tank pretty decently. Not sure about primary AD. Maybe?
I tested the passive and it looks to be 2.93 second CD at 100% crit, so that isn't that great compared to just hitting harder with more AD/generating more with CDR and more Q's.
|
On November 12 2015 14:12 Zess wrote:Played a few games and the nerfed attack speed across the board means that BotRK is pretty much mandatory as the lifesteal item for AA based ADCs if you can't just chunk dudes with AD spell dmg. So much for meaningful choices in AD itemization
You lose 5% AS on Shiv, 10% on Rapidfire Cannon (compareed to old Shiv) and PD, and you gain 5% on Greaves. So you usually lose 5% at most compared to before?
Cait loses some base AS iirc and Graves' a special case, if you were thinking about them, but I don't see much of a difference for others (if anything, you get better dps because you get more crit).
On November 12 2015 14:53 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2015 14:16 Slusher wrote:
Lustboy was recommending doing a pitstop zeal with the crit lifesteal mastery for your early game lifesteal needs then delaying an actual lifesteal item till much later, I tried it in my MF game it felt aiight. BF->primary AS/Crit item->Finish IE seems a lot stronger on ADC's (that aren't ashe who did this last season too) just due to the lower AS scaling and the free lifesteal in general.
Ashe's autos don't autocrit anymore. Damage calculation is the same but it's the buff for hitting frosted target, not a crit. Crits use her normal crit% and simply apply a stronger slow now.
|
he's saying, the old Ashe build is the standard (IE builder) build now, as opposed to only being good on Ashe. The way her Crits work now is irrelevant.
|
The new jungle item with wards feels pretty good on muh sin, allows for an earlier "insec" power spike plus grants a new item spot in lategame. And on top of that it is now utterly useless to go beyond 12 points in offence as a jungler Lee Sin since it won't help you clean the jungle any faster, so the Sin can get 18 points in defence and live the assassin tank dream.
Also, as a Miss Fortune player, her buff is absolutely huge. I feel like she will get nerfed soon because they took a champion that was already fine for SoloQ purposes and pretty much increased her overall damage by 50%. ADCs overall are probably way too strong this patch.
|
12 6 6 Tryndamere jungle is hilarious. You literally don't need any pots.
|
So as a jungler now if you want to pick blue/red smite you either have to buy sightstone or sacrifice oracle if you want to be able to ward. is this correct?
|
On November 12 2015 21:39 M2 wrote:
So as a jungler now if you want to pick blue/red smite you either have to buy sightstone or sacrifice oracle if you want to be able to ward. is this correct?
Yup.
As a note: AP Lucian W hurts like fuck.
|
Australia18228 Posts
Ghostblade rush is ridiculous on Renek
Both parts are long sword build ups too
|
what are people doing for jungle masteries now?
also how do we feel about machete vs the other thing?
refillable potion vs 3 biscuits for first clear?
|
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
I've played like 10 games on new patch already and :
1) After first 2-3 games I was like : Oh my, this patch is so good, new itemization, new masteries, everything is so new.
2) After 10 games are super disgusted to be honest. Games are total crap, one sided stomps. Snowball as hell and damn, I feel squishy as a tank now that you can't even imagine. ADC's are some kind of a joke. Guinsoo is seen every single game of mine. I don't even know what to play, because I feel like I die in 4-5 hits in 'late game'. I say late game, cause none of my games lasted longer than 30 minutes..
|
Sure sounds alot like the season that just ended, apart from guinso.
|
What killed you in 4-5 hits during the previous season, short of Kog or Vayne critting each hit too?
If anything, people were complaining because [juggernauts] were too tanky, and that marksmen couldn't deal with them without heavy peeling because they were too tanky to kite.
Can't comment on the game length in this patch as I've played inhouses so it's not as balanced as in pubs (especially when someone ragequits), but pre-patch my games were mostly around 35 minutes.
|
Feed plays a role ofc but I always felt like I got deleted whenever going up against a trist/vayne/kalista/jinx last season as Sion stacking health and armor.
As for the stomps, cmon, that was a problem this whole season. One game in five (at best) was an even matchup, the rest were usually complete stomps for either team.
|
On November 13 2015 01:29 Frolossus wrote:
what are people doing for jungle masteries now?
also how do we feel about machete vs the other thing?
refillable potion vs 3 biscuits for first clear?
12/18/0 on champions that need burst, 18/12/0 on auto attackers, and 6/6/21 on tanks is what I'm running right now.
|
I run the base of 6 6 6 jungle masteries and then just spec into whatever tree I want for that champ.
|
On November 12 2015 22:11 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2015 21:39 M2 wrote:
So as a jungler now if you want to pick blue/red smite you either have to buy sightstone or sacrifice oracle if you want to be able to ward. is this correct? Yup. As a note: AP Lucian W hurts like fuck.
Minor follow-up note: AP Lucian is pretty funny in URF for this reason alone.
|
On November 13 2015 01:37 739 wrote:
I've played like 10 games on new patch already and :
1) After first 2-3 games I was like : Oh my, this patch is so good, new itemization, new masteries, everything is so new.
2) After 10 games are super disgusted to be honest. Games are total crap, one sided stomps. Snowball as hell and damn, I feel squishy as a tank now that you can't even imagine. ADC's are some kind of a joke. Guinsoo is seen every single game of mine. I don't even know what to play, because I feel like I die in 4-5 hits in 'late game'. I say late game, cause none of my games lasted longer than 30 minutes..
I confirm this 110% and its not only about the tanks, I play assassins and even if I am in a good shape, if the enemy adc is fed I just lose the duels, I have to be either ahead or even with the adcs to take a duel. Probably the new itemization is fukcin me up as well, I still cannot find what are my optimal builds, however, the feeling for the adcs supremacy stay.
I am not even saying that this is bad, maybe we have to all start working for our carries, like in dota, but this really makes the games so fast and one sided. Its all about which bot lane will get the lead
|
I really really really don't like how prevalent and easy it is to get crit now...
The old power dip of AD carries virtually no longer exists because crit chance is on freaking everything.
|
On November 13 2015 08:09 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2015 01:37 739 wrote:
I've played like 10 games on new patch already and :
1) After first 2-3 games I was like : Oh my, this patch is so good, new itemization, new masteries, everything is so new.
2) After 10 games are super disgusted to be honest. Games are total crap, one sided stomps. Snowball as hell and damn, I feel squishy as a tank now that you can't even imagine. ADC's are some kind of a joke. Guinsoo is seen every single game of mine. I don't even know what to play, because I feel like I die in 4-5 hits in 'late game'. I say late game, cause none of my games lasted longer than 30 minutes.. I confirm this 110% and its not only about the tanks, I play assassins and even if I am in a good shape, if the enemy adc is fed I just lose the duels, I have to be either ahead or even with the adcs to take a duel. Probably the new itemization is fukcin me up as well, I still cannot find what are my optimal builds, however, the feeling for the adcs supremacy stay. I am not even saying that this is bad, maybe we have to all start working for our carries, like in dota, but this really makes the games so fast and one sided. Its all about which bot lane will get the lead
Agreed. I've actually come to the forums to see if anyone figured out a way or combination of masteries to deal with this. At first, all the new changes felt so shiny and awesome, but 10 games later, I was just about ready to throw in the towel. The minion changes do not feel subtle at all, a single loss either at bot or mid was about all it took for people to start sieging my towers. Under perfect circumstances, I can see that the extra pushing power was for the losers to freeze the lane and farm back the advantage. It was supposed to be a subtle thing that encouraged people to learn how to freeze lanes, but personally, it felt like a bloody siege tank came out of nowhere to hammer at my gates and all it took was 1 death.
Secondly, with all the changes to mana, gold and adc to deal with the complaints that tanks weren't melting fast enough I'm really surprised with how badly they misjudged the relative meltiness of tanks at top and well tanks in general. On paper its a good idea. At Gold 2 as a nasus main, most of the tops come out with at least one full defensive item by the 10 minute mark, but with all the balancing and the so called increase in ambient gold, the fastest i could build a frozen heart as a nasus against a garen was 14 minutes when i could usually do it at 12. Even then, i essentially exploded WAAAY faster than before during the mid game, and against a MF of all things. that damned ulti is so frigging painful now. And when a Nasus cant even get close enough to do a single 600 stack Q (28 minutes, CDR is very easy to get this meta, so i went armor runes) before he explodes, you know something is wrong. Not kited, not slowed, not CC-ed, flat out EXPLODED.
For the record, i went 0/12/18 and full armor runes.
Obviously I'm doing something wrong here, but does anyone know what would be the best tank based masteries at the moment?
On a side note, I also went AP mid with Syndra and Zed to check a few things. The sudden drop in DPS is VERY noticeable and the power spikes have slowed somewhat. Auto attack based AP mages, assassins like zed and yasuo are going to be a very popular pick in mid, especially against the usual mana heavy, immobile artillery type AP mages. To give a comparison, as Syndra with a zhonya and a half made luden, doing well enough against a Velkoz to get 3/1/0 at the 9 minute mark, i went up against a Cait who had been losing lane along the tune of 3/4/2. It was flat out impossible to duel her in a straight up fight with her range and DPS even though she only had a BFS and a Cull. stun and unloaded a whole rotation on her from a bush, but was unable to kill the cait in one cycle which is rather sad really. After that, it was just her blasting me to death. I'm aware its now how Syndra is played, but I did it because I simply wanted to test out the relative DPS and duelling capability of the new ADCs. I was not impressed. Safe to say, even as a Zed that had been winning lane (6/1/3), it depended heavily on skill and timing to win against a vayne (3/2/0).
|
I thought the minion changes weren't active till next week?
|
On November 13 2015 11:51 Ketara wrote:
I thought the minion changes weren't active till next week?
they aren't
"UPDATE: We froze the pushing changes below at the last minute, so these won't be going live in 5.22. They'll make their official debut in 5.23!"
|
Sounds pretty subtle if people think they're active when they're not and don't notice them on pbe when they are active lol.
|
Has anyone found a use for Talisman jungle starts? Tried it out on Pantheon, Kha'Zix, Kayle, and Amumu on both Red and Blue starts compared to Machete. The regen isn't enough that you can start Red and spam away to try to keep HP up and if you're starting blue then the regen doesn't matter and Machete just clears faster = leaves you healthier.
|
On November 13 2015 12:09 Ketara wrote:
Sounds pretty subtle if people think they're active when they're not and don't notice them on pbe when they are active lol.
I personally think Reddit is wayyy overreacting to the proposed minions changes.
10% extra damage and 1~2 damage blocked is really not that much...Yes it makes freezing really hard if you're ahead, but it's not going to completely kill it. The Enrage and Ironclad buffs are redundant because if your team is collectively 3+ levels ahead, you're probably gonna win hard anyways unless you're playing some weird teamcomp with exp quints and Morde+Zil.
|
The only thing I think might be weird with the minion changes are if one side has a gank heavy jungler and the other side has a powerfarming jungler.
But even that shouldn't be enough to make the team an average 3 levels ahead.
Might be a really funny strat with an Udyr jungle and Morde/zil bot you can do to try to abuse it though.
|
On November 13 2015 11:06 Kur0Kishi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2015 08:09 M2 wrote:On November 13 2015 01:37 739 wrote:
I've played like 10 games on new patch already and :
1) After first 2-3 games I was like : Oh my, this patch is so good, new itemization, new masteries, everything is so new.
2) After 10 games are super disgusted to be honest. Games are total crap, one sided stomps. Snowball as hell and damn, I feel squishy as a tank now that you can't even imagine. ADC's are some kind of a joke. Guinsoo is seen every single game of mine. I don't even know what to play, because I feel like I die in 4-5 hits in 'late game'. I say late game, cause none of my games lasted longer than 30 minutes.. I confirm this 110% and its not only about the tanks, I play assassins and even if I am in a good shape, if the enemy adc is fed I just lose the duels, I have to be either ahead or even with the adcs to take a duel. Probably the new itemization is fukcin me up as well, I still cannot find what are my optimal builds, however, the feeling for the adcs supremacy stay. I am not even saying that this is bad, maybe we have to all start working for our carries, like in dota, but this really makes the games so fast and one sided. Its all about which bot lane will get the lead Agreed. I've actually come to the forums to see if anyone figured out a way or combination of masteries to deal with this. At first, all the new changes felt so shiny and awesome, but 10 games later, I was just about ready to throw in the towel. The minion changes do not feel subtle at all, a single loss either at bot or mid was about all it took for people to start sieging my towers. Under perfect circumstances, I can see that the extra pushing power was for the losers to freeze the lane and farm back the advantage. It was supposed to be a subtle thing that encouraged people to learn how to freeze lanes, but personally, it felt like a bloody siege tank came out of nowhere to hammer at my gates and all it took was 1 death. Secondly, with all the changes to mana, gold and adc to deal with the complaints that tanks weren't melting fast enough I'm really surprised with how badly they misjudged the relative meltiness of tanks at top and well tanks in general. On paper its a good idea. At Gold 2 as a nasus main, most of the tops come out with at least one full defensive item by the 10 minute mark, but with all the balancing and the so called increase in ambient gold, the fastest i could build a frozen heart as a nasus against a garen was 14 minutes when i could usually do it at 12. Even then, i essentially exploded WAAAY faster than before during the mid game, and against a MF of all things. that damned ulti is so frigging painful now. And when a Nasus cant even get close enough to do a single 600 stack Q (28 minutes, CDR is very easy to get this meta, so i went armor runes) before he explodes, you know something is wrong. Not kited, not slowed, not CC-ed, flat out EXPLODED. For the record, i went 0/12/18 and full armor runes. Obviously I'm doing something wrong here, but does anyone know what would be the best tank based masteries at the moment? On a side note, I also went AP mid with Syndra and Zed to check a few things. The sudden drop in DPS is VERY noticeable and the power spikes have slowed somewhat. Auto attack based AP mages, assassins like zed and yasuo are going to be a very popular pick in mid, especially against the usual mana heavy, immobile artillery type AP mages. To give a comparison, as Syndra with a zhonya and a half made luden, doing well enough against a Velkoz to get 3/1/0 at the 9 minute mark, i went up against a Cait who had been losing lane along the tune of 3/4/2. It was flat out impossible to duel her in a straight up fight with her range and DPS even though she only had a BFS and a Cull. stun and unloaded a whole rotation on her from a bush, but was unable to kill the cait in one cycle which is rather sad really. After that, it was just her blasting me to death. I'm aware its now how Syndra is played, but I did it because I simply wanted to test out the relative DPS and duelling capability of the new ADCs. I was not impressed. Safe to say, even as a Zed that had been winning lane (6/1/3), it depended heavily on skill and timing to win against a vayne (3/2/0).
Those aren't the best examples. You're honestly surprised that the ADC beat you in a duel vs a champ that doesn't duel well? Any ADC is going to win in that scenario vs Syn. You have a bush advantage as Syndra. Set up your 7 sphere ult and delete. Test out a duel with a more appropriate champion, then come back and say whether or not ADCs are overtuned.
The Zed example is better, but Vayne has historically always been one of the best champs vs Zed.
|
On November 13 2015 12:09 Ketara wrote:
Sounds pretty subtle if people think they're active when they're not and don't notice them on pbe when they are active lol.
Winning lanes snowball stupidly fast between Herald for top and the general broken-ness bot, so maybe people confuse that with minions helping them push.
|
Has anyone played against Swain? I swear his birds were blocking skill shots when he was ulting.
|
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Is Jax better with 12/18/0 or 18/12/0? To me the relevant choices are:
- 7% armor penetration
- Your basic attacks and spells give you stacks of Fervor for 5 seconds, stacking 10 times. Each stack of Fervor adds 1-8 bonus physical damage to your basic attacks against champions, based on your level.
VS
- 3 to 8.4 hybrid penetration based on level
- Your 3rd ability or basic attack on an enemy champion shocks them, dealing 10-180 (+0.2 bonus attack damage) (+0.1 ability power) magic damage in an area around them.
VS
- 3 to 8.4 hybrid penetration based on level
- Dealing 30% of a champion's maximum health within 2 seconds grants you 35% bonus movement speed for 3 seconds
Ketara has taught us all that the flat hybrid penetration definitely beats out the percentage penetration. But what about the keystones? The movespeed is lovely for Jax's that don't want to build BotRK no more, while the damage from Fervor and Thunderlord's Decree is also amazing, each in their own way.
|
Hybrid pen is way better, the only reason you'd go 18/12/0 is Fervor. I'd probably run with the movespeed. Seems best lategame when you're rolling in damage anyway.
|
Played 2 games last night on new patch.
I don't know what the fuck is going on. All I know is Graves Jungle is pretty bonkers right now. Looks like one of the few junglers that can do a healthy clear early on. Too many new items, but so far Riot has done pretty good job with all the new items that came out, they all look like they have a place in a build for certain champions, or certain play styles.
|
|
|
Australia18228 Posts
For those that want to try Graves jungle, start E.
You'll get +20/30 armor when you're doing your first buff
|
On November 14 2015 01:54 GrandInquisitor wrote:Is Jax better with 12/18/0 or 18/12/0? To me the relevant choices are: - 7% armor penetration
- Your basic attacks and spells give you stacks of Fervor for 5 seconds, stacking 10 times. Each stack of Fervor adds 1-8 bonus physical damage to your basic attacks against champions, based on your level.
VS
- 3 to 8.4 hybrid penetration based on level
- Your 3rd ability or basic attack on an enemy champion shocks them, dealing 10-180 (+0.2 bonus attack damage) (+0.1 ability power) magic damage in an area around them.
VS
- 3 to 8.4 hybrid penetration based on level
- Dealing 30% of a champion's maximum health within 2 seconds grants you 35% bonus movement speed for 3 seconds
Ketara has taught us all that the flat hybrid penetration definitely beats out the percentage penetration. But what about the keystones? The movespeed is lovely for Jax's that don't want to build BotRK no more, while the damage from Fervor and Thunderlord's Decree is also amazing, each in their own way.
Why not 12/0/18 with grasp of bullshit?
I'm calling it grasp of bullshit for a reason guys.
Let's ask this question. If Jax W also did 3% max health damage on top of everything else it does, would you complain about that being an unfairly large buff?
Because, grasp of bullshit guys. Guys? Guys.
More seriously, for Jax and champions like him I feel like his issue is mostly surviving and not dealing damage. If he survives long enough he outdamages a very large majority of champions.
12/0/18 gives him a decent amount of damage, but is focused on survivability.
But then you're like but Ketara, I need a damage keystone to compete with everybody else's damage keystones.
To which I remind you that I'm calling it grasp of bullshit for a reason.
If you have 4k HP it does 30dps. DFT you need like, 180 bonus AD to do that much damage. Fervor you need an attackspeed of over 3.0 which is physically impossible.
And then for some reason it heals you too?
Grasp of bullshit guys.
|
On November 14 2015 03:18 krndandaman wrote:
was there a hotfix or secret patch?
my client did a decent length patch.
warlords cd is in, not sure if/what else
|
On November 14 2015 03:46 Ketara wrote:
Grasp of bullshit guys.
does his ult count as bonus stats? or should I grab regen?
|
Over how many seconds though? Being able to delete whomever you jump on in the duration on E stun is often more important than any subsequent DPS slapfighting.
|
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
I just can't. After 10-12 games I think this patch is bullshit. Playing against Vayne/Cait that got some kills is just meh :\ Even with being tanky with 200+ armor and 5k hp I died in less than 6 seconds to fed enemy ADC.
|
On November 14 2015 04:00 Zess wrote:
Over how many seconds though? Being able to delete whomever you jump on in the duration on E stun is often more important than any subsequent DPS slapfighting.
Yup, remember, autoattacking during teamfights is hard to do as a melee. Now, maybe you are soloing, which means you won or lost based on the champ you are against, or how bad the fiora is.
|
Actually you can easily hit 30 DPS with fervor I'm not sure what I was thinking.
Grasp of bullshit pretty stronk I think though.
It's like Thunderlords but it scales off of tank items instead of off of damage items and also heals you and is on a 4 second cooldown instead of a 30 second cooldown.
|
On November 14 2015 01:11 WiseBagus wrote:
Has anyone played against Swain? I swear his birds were blocking skill shots when he was ulting.
Swains birds are generic projectiles, they're blocked by Windwall et all. So no, they should not be. Must have been hitting something else/not doing enough damage because swain has insane regen with his ult up.
On November 14 2015 02:50 Caiada wrote:
Hybrid pen is way better, the only reason you'd go 18/12/0 is Fervor. I'd probably run with the movespeed. Seems best lategame when you're rolling in damage anyway.
The 50-80 damage/hit lategame is pretty insane though.
I mean, if you have 200 AD, IE, and 100% Crit then Fervor is still a 16% damage increase at level 18.
Realistically you're jax and you have 150-200 AD, 0% crit[devourer/rageblade/gunblade] and so Fervor is another 35% or so damage on your auto attacks. Which is far far far more than 8.4 flat pen will get you.
The big thing about champions which build a mix of damage and tank is that either damage or tank in masteries is acceptable, because you compensate with items. Such you tend to want either the best DPS or the best tank option.
Fervor is so much damage you can realistically swap an offensive item for a defensive item without much loss. Rageblade+Fervor is probably all you really need[though a third item gunblade could be good as well, as sustain is magnified by defensive stats]. So you will be effectively tankier earlier with Fervor than you will with the defensive masteries.
On some time earlier than this post Ketara(?) wrote:
If you have 4k HP it does 30dps. DFT you need like, 180 bonus AD to do that much damage. Fervor you need an attackspeed of over 3.0 which is physically impossible.
Fervor does 80damage/hit. So if you have devourer that is 120 damage/hit average. Which means you need an attack speed of .25 in order to make Fervor more DPS than grasp. If you don't have devourer you need an attack speed of 1.5 to do more DPS in the first second with Fervor than with Grasp. There is basically no way that grasp comes anywhere close to the power of Fervor.
Edit: Grasp is great for a full tank who wants to abuse the HP steal to stay alive[as well as already wanting to be in the defensive tree]. But for AS based champions its not a contest, especially since you can lifesteal off the fervor damage [as with all bonus physical and/or with Gunblade]
|
I actually like the super aggro gameplay, it's refreshing.
|
Gou I think you are living in a fantasy land where melee champions actually get to aa a lot in teamfights.
|
On November 14 2015 04:23 Ketara wrote:
Gou I think you are living in a fantasy land where melee champions actually get to aa a lot in teamfights.
It doesn't matter if you get to AA "a lot" because it stacks so fast(and stacks on creeps) that its not an issue. Jax stacks Rageblade in 4 attacks. So Ult, Leap, E, Auto, W, Auto, Auto. At which point he will have +177% AS with just Rageblade which is worth 1.77 AS. You will apply 3+4+5+6 = 18 stacks in that time before rageblade fully stacks, for 144 damage, more than Grasp will ever do. And this assumes he starts with zero stacks. If he was able to hit creeps or monsters for any point of time he can apply 20 stacks in just Auto,W.[and if he can do that he will probably have maxed AS as well, for probably 2.0 AS or more]
And the only way grasps other attributes matter is if you live for 4 more seconds after your initial jump[and also have 4000 HP!] which well, you won't unless you apply the best CC. And Fervor is best at applying the best CC.
|
On November 14 2015 04:23 Ketara wrote:
Gou I think you are living in a fantasy land where melee champions actually get to aa a lot in teamfights.
Isn't that also an argument against Grasp of the Undying? [edit: oops thought this was once every 4 AAs not once every 4s]
The champs I can think of as posterboy use cases for Graps are the likes of Trundle and Rek'Sai
|
Grasp only requires you to AA once every four seconds. Well, actually, if you're Jax, you just Leap Strike and it's fine.
I think it's an interesting idea. These keystones require testing more than they do math, given all the conditionals.
|
The problem with grasp on Jax is that you
1) Have to have a lot of HP, which means pure defensive options.
2) You can't auto more than once or twice in a fight or Fervor does more
3) the top end of Fervor is massively higher than the top end of grasp.
|
Sounds like ketara is living in a fantasy land where jax isn't splitpushing so he has 10 stacks 24/7.
|
Haven't tried it out yet, but my friend has been on a sick win streak with katarina with the thunderlord mastery. He just instagibs everyone with it. Combined with Deathcap + Ludens, it does some sick sick damage.
|
Speaking of instagib, sure is fun meeting a leblanc these days.
|
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Thunderlord mastery is 100% bugged right now - it has no cooldown instead of a 30s cooldown. Makes Cassiopeia damage absolutely disgusting.
Does it proc multiple times on Singed, then, I wonder ...
|
On November 14 2015 06:28 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Thunderlord mastery is 100% bugged right now - it has no cooldown instead of a 30s cooldown. Makes Cassiopeia damage absolutely disgusting.
Does it proc multiple times on Singed, then, I wonder ...
my friend also says karthus is absolutely bonkers with it as well.
I'd imagine ziggs is probably really strong with it as well.
|
Did they nerf the cone on Runnan? I was thinking with crit it would be pretty beast now, but it feels terrible.
|
On November 14 2015 11:22 Slusher wrote:
Did they nerf the cone on Runnan? I was thinking with crit it would be pretty beast now, but it feels terrible.
The added shots now have to be in your auto range, no longer a range around your target.
|
On November 14 2015 13:32 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:22 Slusher wrote:
Did they nerf the cone on Runnan? I was thinking with crit it would be pretty beast now, but it feels terrible. The added shots now have to be in your auto range, no longer a range around your target.
I wonder how that interacts with the item that increases your range for a single auto, with energized damage.
|
|
|
On November 14 2015 16:17 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 06:28 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Thunderlord mastery is 100% bugged right now - it has no cooldown instead of a 30s cooldown. Makes Cassiopeia damage absolutely disgusting.
Does it proc multiple times on Singed, then, I wonder ...
you sure? tested it out with my friend and it wasn't the case. there is however a bug where if someone else has that keystone mastery as well, the person with the higher pick order's cooldown affects everyone else who has it. at least that's what i've seen on reddit. only tested the 30s cd part
yea I tested it now, it's either fixed or I was just super taken off guard about getting 100-0 by 1 pool with morello only.
|
On November 14 2015 09:50 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 06:28 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Thunderlord mastery is 100% bugged right now - it has no cooldown instead of a 30s cooldown. Makes Cassiopeia damage absolutely disgusting.
Does it proc multiple times on Singed, then, I wonder ...
my friend also says karthus is absolutely bonkers with it as well. I'd imagine ziggs is probably really strong with it as well.
I tried karthus yesterday with thunderlord, didn't notice anything special.
|
Is teleport worth taking on carry top laners after the nerfs to teleport? I asking this because before all the changes to teleport in Season 4 we had top laners take ignite over tp on everyone but Mundo.
|
On November 14 2015 23:52 LightningStrike wrote:
Is teleport worth taking on carry top laners after the nerfs to teleport? I asking this because before all the changes to teleport in Season 4 we had top laners take ignite over tp on everyone but Mundo.
Yeah, since you're probably taking at least 12 in Resolve in the top lane for 15% SS CDR.
|
United States37500 Posts
Anyone else tried out Jungle AP Xin? Core is essentially Devourer, Rageblade, Gunblade. You do silly damage with all the AS and heal for a considerable amount.
|
On November 15 2015 10:31 NeoIllusions wrote:
Anyone else tried out Jungle AP Xin? Core is essentially Devourer, Rageblade, Gunblade. You do silly damage with all the AS and heal for a considerable amount.
Seen it played a bit and it seems even more boom/bust than normal Xin.
Side note, Skirmisher's/PD is stupid good on AS based duelists. Deal all the damage, take none, run them down.
|
On November 15 2015 10:31 NeoIllusions wrote:
Anyone else tried out Jungle AP Xin? Core is essentially Devourer, Rageblade, Gunblade. You do silly damage with all the AS and heal for a considerable amount.
As this build has rage blade it cannot be bad.
|
United States37500 Posts
On November 15 2015 11:10 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 10:31 NeoIllusions wrote:
Anyone else tried out Jungle AP Xin? Core is essentially Devourer, Rageblade, Gunblade. You do silly damage with all the AS and heal for a considerable amount. As this build has rage blade it cannot be bad.
Rushing Rageblade on Jungle Kayle was rather lackluster.
|
|
|
On November 15 2015 11:28 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 11:10 cLutZ wrote:On November 15 2015 10:31 NeoIllusions wrote:
Anyone else tried out Jungle AP Xin? Core is essentially Devourer, Rageblade, Gunblade. You do silly damage with all the AS and heal for a considerable amount. As this build has rage blade it cannot be bad. Rushing Rageblade on Jungle Kayle was rather lackluster.
I have been doing devour Nashor rage blade on Kayle it's pretty silly how op the damage is.
|
On November 15 2015 11:10 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 10:31 NeoIllusions wrote:
Anyone else tried out Jungle AP Xin? Core is essentially Devourer, Rageblade, Gunblade. You do silly damage with all the AS and heal for a considerable amount. As this build has rage blade it cannot be bad.
Basically. I am playing Teemo into Gangplank. He has 2/3rd components for Triforce. I just finished rageblade. I am half HP. He e combo's me, and walks up to me and i just auto him down from full barely taking any damage.
|
So how do you itemize adcs now? Tried out Jinx earlier today and just went IE-Runaans-LW and was dishing out buttloads of damage but I wasn't even sure if it was the right build lol.
|
|
|
Australia18228 Posts
I wonder if BT 3rd/4th is still worth going or if it's better to go IE/ER (one you didn't get) and rely on Warlord's
Maybe IE 3rd/4th if you went ER first but BT if you went IE first
|
On November 15 2015 16:33 rebdomine wrote:
So how do you itemize adcs now? Tried out Jinx earlier today and just went IE-Runaans-LW and was dishing out buttloads of damage but I wasn't even sure if it was the right build lol.
Upgrading to IE only gives you the passive. Better to buy the AD parts and complete your Zeal item before finishing it.
|
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Rageblade is more OP on melee champs because they stack it twice as quickly, so less startup time is required. It's really good in lane combined with Fervor because you stack both up then force a really favorable trade.
|
Does anyone know what items laner Yi is supposed to buy now ?
Before the patch the build was extremely simple : BotRK, Youmu, Last Whisper in pretty much every game. Given the Blade of the Ruined King nerf rushing it as a first item is probably very bad now.
Yi needs attack speed above all, and since he's pretty bad in lane, lifesteal to hold lane is essential too.
Based on this, I guess a Vamp scepter rush remains mandatory, but completing an item that builds from Vamp scepter does not seem optimal because you won't get attack speed. So I would guess that after Yi gets some lifesteal a good option is to go for an attack speed item, probably Static shiv or Ghostblade. Given the huge price increase on Ghostblade, maybe Static shiv is the better choice now.
After you get some attack speed and lifelink you've got what you need, so item choices become less complicated. I imagine that Yi will want to build a Bloodthirster and a Phantom Dancer as the game goes on. If there are nasty tanks on the enemy team, the anti-tank new weapon.
So to me the early game build is the tricky part, especially so because being Yi early on already feels bad. That was somehow compensated by the presence of BotRK as a very solid item for Yi before the patch, but now early game feels very scary for me, although I haven't tested a ton yet. If anyone has an idea, even if it's purely theoretical and if I need to test it myself, I'll be more than happy to hear it.
|
On November 15 2015 16:33 rebdomine wrote:
So how do you itemize adcs now? Tried out Jinx earlier today and just went IE-Runaans-LW and was dishing out buttloads of damage but I wasn't even sure if it was the right build lol.
I like BF-> Crit/AS item ->IE/Second Crit/AS item/LW item
A few things:
1) A lot of the power of AD's has been put into kiting, the stacking MS buffs on the Crit/AS items are super strong.
2) The unique buffs on the AS items, especially Shiv and RFC are a lot stronger than they seem. The Shiv/RFC combo is especially potent because the magic damage stacks. At level 18 with IE a RFC/Shiv Crit will do 575 extra magic damage. The ability to shove/poke towers/extra range attack poke is super strong. I don't feel there is much from the other two that can compete unless the enemy has some really massive dive and you absolutely need the PD DR
3) AS scaling took a huge hit in this patch on most AD's. It used to be the case that you could more or less rely on base AS scaling in order to fuel your attacks, but that is no longer the case. At level 18 you're missing like 15%-25% AS from your prior values, and the low early scaling means that buying AS early is a lot more powerful.
4) AS/Crit scale with the primary power masteries for AD's and AD doesn't.
There are champion specific builds (rageblade on twitch, rageblade/Gunblade/Wits on Kog, straight AD/Crit/Pen on Graves) of course, but if you're primarily auto attacking and don't have corresponding on-hit effects* you should be hitting those crit/as items hard and early since they have by far the most oomph
*) rageblade is so strong i am not sure you can't go Rageblade/Gunblade/Wits End on Vayne, Twitch, and Kogmaw as well. RB is easy on twitch, and RB/GB seems pretty obvious on Kog because of his dual scaling, and the fact that GunB will lifesteal on all of their on-hit damage plus provide a target slow/damage makes it a lot stronger than it would be otherwise. With the larger amount and power of on-hit magic damage, wits is starting to look a lot better as well. With rageblade and gunblade wits is actually more damage than Nashor's [wits has generally more on-hit damage until 166 AP, which you will achieve by about 16 on-hit damage[10 on nashors, 6 on Rage from AP]. But wits is 500 gold cheaper, provides a significant amount of MR[40 to 65] and the MR shred will quickly outstrip the 10% attack speed and slightly higher on-hit damage.
On November 16 2015 00:03 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Rageblade is more OP on melee champs because they stack it twice as quickly, so less startup time is required. It's really good in lane combined with Fervor because you stack both up then force a really favorable trade.
I am not sure that is true. Melee champions can stack it twice as fast, but ranged champions are less likely to explode when using it.
|
On November 16 2015 04:06 Maluk wrote:
Does anyone know what items laner Yi is supposed to buy now ?
Before the patch the build was extremely simple : BotRK, Youmu, Last Whisper in pretty much every game. Given the Blade of the Ruined King nerf rushing it as a first item is probably very bad now.
Yi needs attack speed above all, and since he's pretty bad in lane, lifesteal to hold lane is essential too.
Based on this, I guess a Vamp scepter rush remains mandatory, but completing an item that builds from Vamp scepter does not seem optimal because you won't get attack speed. So I would guess that after Yi gets some lifesteal a good option is to go for an attack speed item, probably Static shiv or Ghostblade. Given the huge price increase on Ghostblade, maybe Static shiv is the better choice now.
After you get some attack speed and lifelink you've got what you need, so item choices become less complicated. I imagine that Yi will want to build a Bloodthirster and a Phantom Dancer as the game goes on. If there are nasty tanks on the enemy team, the anti-tank new weapon.
So to me the early game build is the tricky part, especially so because being Yi early on already feels bad. That was somehow compensated by the presence of BotRK as a very solid item for Yi before the patch, but now early game feels very scary for me, although I haven't tested a ton yet. If anyone has an idea, even if it's purely theoretical and if I need to test it myself, I'll be more than happy to hear it.
Haven't seen lane Yi in this patch, have had a bunch of lane Tryndamere's popping off with 2x Doran into Shiv and Firecannon and just ripping people with the proc spam and free AD. Maybe it could work on Yi too, the Energize items are quite cheap compared to BotrK and have a pretty smooth build path.
|
On November 16 2015 04:06 Maluk wrote:
Does anyone know what items laner Yi is supposed to buy now ?
Before the patch the build was extremely simple : BotRK, Youmu, Last Whisper in pretty much every game. Given the Blade of the Ruined King nerf rushing it as a first item is probably very bad now.
Yi needs attack speed above all, and since he's pretty bad in lane, lifesteal to hold lane is essential too.
Based on this, I guess a Vamp scepter rush remains mandatory, but completing an item that builds from Vamp scepter does not seem optimal because you won't get attack speed. So I would guess that after Yi gets some lifesteal a good option is to go for an attack speed item, probably Static shiv or Ghostblade. Given the huge price increase on Ghostblade, maybe Static shiv is the better choice now.
After you get some attack speed and lifelink you've got what you need, so item choices become less complicated. I imagine that Yi will want to build a Bloodthirster and a Phantom Dancer as the game goes on. If there are nasty tanks on the enemy team, the anti-tank new weapon.
So to me the early game build is the tricky part, especially so because being Yi early on already feels bad. That was somehow compensated by the presence of BotRK as a very solid item for Yi before the patch, but now early game feels very scary for me, although I haven't tested a ton yet. If anyone has an idea, even if it's purely theoretical and if I need to test it myself, I'll be more than happy to hear it.
I played lane Yi a lot season 5, tried it now and I agree Botrk doen't work. I switched to life steal quints and went for static -> rageblade and it worked lets say better. Of course with the super OP life steal critical mastery, which will be nerfed though. From there I prefer bruiser build like deadman's, sterak, hexdrinker (the whole thing). However, if you want to go full damage, I guess firecannon, infinity and trinity are prime choices, but no idea in what order.
|
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
I've played against 45% CDR Alistar today and holy jesus it seemed like his Q/W had no cooldowns. Pulverize/headbutt all over again, I just couldn't stick to their adc at all.
|
I'm actually kind of surprised Riot implemented that mastery. CDR as a stat doesn't scale linearly, so going from 40 -> 45% CDR gives 2.88 times the benefit of going from 0 -> 5%.
|
It's going to be much stronger on some champions than others. Alistar is a pretty big poster boy for it.
It's counterpart Precision is also real ridiculously strong. That tier in general is stronger in Cunning than in the other two trees.
|
So, which of the cunning keystone masteries is actually bugged atm? I've seen lots of people either get them mixed up or fuse the names, so I'm not sure what exactly is happening.
|
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
A lot of stuff is bugged. We should put together a comprehensive list. Thunderlord's Decree has no cooldown (I think?) and only works for the person highest in pick order on that team (I have heard). Stormraider's Surge doesn't work apparently?
|
Several of the keystones don't work if two people in the same game have them, or only work for one person.
Thunderlords definitely has a cooldown.
|
So far, best success I've had in this new patch mostly stems from RFC+Shiv combo on a variety of champions. Also, Triforce+Essence reaver is really strong; insta 40% cdr, with unlimited mana pool, really strong on Corki and Ez.
|
I believe the current bug for thunderlords is that if 2 people have it on the same team one person can put in on cd for both players.
There was a period of time when it was thought to have no cd, I myself got 100-0'd by a morello only morg pool, but tested it a couple of hours later to find it was either fixed or not bugged in that way.
|
On November 18 2015 12:40 Slusher wrote:
I believe the current bug for thunderlords is that if 2 people have it on the same team one person can put in on cd for both players.
There was a period of time when it was thought to have no cd, I myself got 100-0'd by a morello only morg pool, but tested it a couple of hours later to find it was either fixed or not bugged in that way.
Man, reminds me of the good old days of Morg. You know, the flash QWR solo kill days.
|
On November 18 2015 14:07 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 12:40 Slusher wrote:
I believe the current bug for thunderlords is that if 2 people have it on the same team one person can put in on cd for both players.
There was a period of time when it was thought to have no cd, I myself got 100-0'd by a morello only morg pool, but tested it a couple of hours later to find it was either fixed or not bugged in that way. Man, reminds me of the good old days of Morg. You know, the flash QWR solo kill days.
Ahh the days when black shield had a CD lower than jungler CC abilities, morg could heal like 100 health off a single W with OP passive spellvamp, and R had a 1.0x2 ratio. Anybody without flash you could just instantly kill with the W MR shred.
|
More importantly, abilities had actual mana costs and mobility wasn't as rampant, so it was easier for her to actually hit multitarget ults, bindings, and keep people in the puddle, plus cheap instaclear wasn't as prevalent so she was actually good at pushing.
If you look at the time, and how she's an original 40, her numbers weren't that high. Fiddlesticks and Karthus have/had similar ones for example, Annie had lower ones but that's because her bases were even higher. 
|
Anyone knows if Deathfire touch works for Shaco's boxes?
Also does anyone know if Deathfire touch works on creeps/monsters or just on champs?
|
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
Best Masteries/runes for jungle/top LeeSin atm? Anyone?
Edit : From what I have and Gripex uses :
Lee jungle : 18/0/12 with Deathfire Torch and for Lee top he just changes Tough skin for Explorer in Resolve tree.
|
I could imagine several keystones being strong on the Lee Singa.
But he doesn't need mobility, and doesn't really want to build tank masteries (even if he might build tank items), doesn't auto tooooo much, likes burst damage, early game damage and his E is magic.
12/18/0 with Thunderlords? 0/18/12? 6/18/6?
|
Only reason he doesn't auto much is because of the stupid high base value and ratio on R, it's actually really easy for him to fit 1-2 autos between spells (Q puts you right on their model, W is another dash, E is a slow, R into a wall buys you facepunch time because the "flying time" is between 1.5 and 2s, and his passive is made to help you auto) if people wouldn't die outright to a combo.
That said, if you're looking to kill people Cunning is probably the tree you want the 18 points in. 6-18-6 at the least, maybe even 0-18-12 if you're looking to tank up a bit later.
|
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
Precision or Intelligence in Cunning? Also which exactly masteries for Resolve tree? HP regen?
|
United States11390 Posts
On November 19 2015 01:51 739 wrote:
Precision or Intelligence in Cunning? Also which exactly masteries for Resolve tree? HP regen?
On which champion are you referring to?
|
|
|
I'm not sure what to build on Vi if I want some more damage after warrior...
Now that Hexdrinker grows into the very powerful MoM, it can be a fine item although I'll often buy Locket if the enemy comp/situation calls for it, it looks like the go-to selfish MR item.
But there are 4 potential candidates for the 2nd item when going damage:
+ Show Spoiler +- Triforce: it costs 100 gold more, provides less AD, AP, AS and MS, all for 10% crit and 10% CDR. It was already a "fed only" item before, certainly not now.
- Black Cleaver: it trades 500 gold and 100 HP for 15 AD. That's a really big nerf since the point of your 2nd item timing is to complete it early (gotta keep in mind that Warrior costs 400 more for the full item now, so Warrior+BC is 900 gold more than before for 30 more AD and 100 less HP). Plus, what with all the silly marksmen kits and items buffs, 300 HP isn't that much and you still melt.
- Death's Dance: the heal would be nice if she dealt more single-target damage. I wonder how her E counts, on paper W and E's main target heal you for full, while E's cone heals as AoE. The passive bleed is nice to buy time for another shield activation later on, but you still can't decide to save it (or trigger it at will once you're alone) to survive the bleed. It doesn't do more than BC offensively though, and unless there are shields/heals on your team the bleed doesn't change much for her.
The build-up is underwhelming with Vamp's combine cost+DD's combine cost being pretty much one. Depending on how you count the long sword, that's a 1000~1400 combine cost here.
- Youmuu's Ghostblade: the cheapest of the lot, with the best build path but also the least tankiness.
AD, ArPen and CDR is pretty much the dream mix for Vi, especially early on when she's looking for skirmishes and ganks where she doesn't need to keep auto-ing after her rotation. You really need to go full tank after this because you'll have dumped 5.5k gold in Warrior+Youmuu's, with a jungle budget meaning the enemy AD's gonna have his 2-items core and wreck shit up if you didn't set him behind.
It doesn't have stickiness like Phage-based items, but the active can cover that, and increase her dueling power later on.
I'm thinking I'd go with Youmuu's but it's hard to justify spending so much without any tank stats (especially when Tiamat-based junglers like Lee, Rengar or Kha'Zix can just spend 1200 and have their core damage items).
On the other hand, you can start with Caulfield's and branch into BC, or Dirk and keep it for MoM, if you don't do too hot and need to get more tankiness in the short term rather than complete Youmuu's (or even build it at all). Caulfield's probably the "safest" of the two, but flat ArPen is more valuable early on and it's on Dirk.
I'll see. I have to try stuff.
I'm currently going 18-12 on her, taking Fervor of Battle, but her bursty nature makes me wonder if I wouldn't be better off taking 12-18-0 with Decree for more burst or the mobility keystone for stickiness/ability to get that last auto to finish a gank (if she ends up dealing enough damage; it's true early on if she has ult but stops being the case past midgame or on tanky targets).
Alternatively, 0-12-18 with Grasp of the Undying would probably be pretty good too for dueling, or Bonds of Stone to let you initiative without blowing up.
The issue being that your role often switches depending on how good you do early on, contrary to a true assassin like Rengar who's gonna look for damage all game long, or a tanky initiator like Gragas or Malphite, so it's easy to take one mastery build and end up in the other situation later on.
|
I used to feel like damage Vi was stupid, but BC is now not enough defense for one item, ADCs are better, no AD/Armor item exists, and Youmuu's is a fuckload better. I think, unless they're unusually AP heavy or you need to go tank, going Warrior->Youmuu will be the way to go on her.
|
I still think IGB is pretty good. Especially now with the Sheen changes. I'd definitely go Decree(when it's fixed).
|
On November 19 2015 07:37 Alaric wrote:I'm not sure what to build on Vi if I want some more damage after warrior... Now that Hexdrinker grows into the very powerful MoM, it can be a fine item although I'll often buy Locket if the enemy comp/situation calls for it, it looks like the go-to selfish MR item. But there are 4 potential candidates for the 2nd item when going damage: + Show Spoiler +- Triforce: it costs 100 gold more, provides less AD, AP, AS and MS, all for 10% crit and 10% CDR. It was already a "fed only" item before, certainly not now.
- Black Cleaver: it trades 500 gold and 100 HP for 15 AD. That's a really big nerf since the point of your 2nd item timing is to complete it early (gotta keep in mind that Warrior costs 400 more for the full item now, so Warrior+BC is 900 gold more than before for 30 more AD and 100 less HP). Plus, what with all the silly marksmen kits and items buffs, 300 HP isn't that much and you still melt.
- Death's Dance: the heal would be nice if she dealt more single-target damage. I wonder how her E counts, on paper W and E's main target heal you for full, while E's cone heals as AoE. The passive bleed is nice to buy time for another shield activation later on, but you still can't decide to save it (or trigger it at will once you're alone) to survive the bleed. It doesn't do more than BC offensively though, and unless there are shields/heals on your team the bleed doesn't change much for her.
The build-up is underwhelming with Vamp's combine cost+DD's combine cost being pretty much one. Depending on how you count the long sword, that's a 1000~1400 combine cost here.
- Youmuu's Ghostblade: the cheapest of the lot, with the best build path but also the least tankiness.
AD, ArPen and CDR is pretty much the dream mix for Vi, especially early on when she's looking for skirmishes and ganks where she doesn't need to keep auto-ing after her rotation. You really need to go full tank after this because you'll have dumped 5.5k gold in Warrior+Youmuu's, with a jungle budget meaning the enemy AD's gonna have his 2-items core and wreck shit up if you didn't set him behind.
It doesn't have stickiness like Phage-based items, but the active can cover that, and increase her dueling power later on. I'm thinking I'd go with Youmuu's but it's hard to justify spending so much without any tank stats (especially when Tiamat-based junglers like Lee, Rengar or Kha'Zix can just spend 1200 and have their core damage items). On the other hand, you can start with Caulfield's and branch into BC, or Dirk and keep it for MoM, if you don't do too hot and need to get more tankiness in the short term rather than complete Youmuu's (or even build it at all). Caulfield's probably the "safest" of the two, but flat ArPen is more valuable early on and it's on Dirk. I'll see. I have to try stuff. I'm currently going 18-12 on her, taking Fervor of Battle, but her bursty nature makes me wonder if I wouldn't be better off taking 12-18-0 with Decree for more burst or the mobility keystone for stickiness/ability to get that last auto to finish a gank (if she ends up dealing enough damage; it's true early on if she has ult but stops being the case past midgame or on tanky targets). Alternatively, 0-12-18 with Grasp of the Undying would probably be pretty good too for dueling, or Bonds of Stone to let you initiative without blowing up. The issue being that your role often switches depending on how good you do early on, contrary to a true assassin like Rengar who's gonna look for damage all game long, or a tanky initiator like Gragas or Malphite, so it's easy to take one mastery build and end up in the other situation later on.
i'm sitting on warrior->botrk->cleaver->deadman's->maw sell warrior for steraks still
also doing 0/18/12 with stormraiders
|
On November 19 2015 07:53 Gahlo wrote:
I still think IGB is pretty good. Especially now with the Sheen changes. I'd definitely go Decree(when it's fixed).
Rejoice , it was hotfixed, also warlords only on champions is in as well. According to le reddit.
|
On November 19 2015 08:14 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 07:53 Gahlo wrote:
I still think IGB is pretty good. Especially now with the Sheen changes. I'd definitely go Decree(when it's fixed). Rejoice , it was hotfixed, also warlords only on champions is in as well. According to le reddit.
Last I saw that was only on Korea, which has historically been a bit more proactive about things that need fixing fast but only end up on the PBE.
|
Edit: BotRK 2nd, Frolossus? It's 3800 gold now and doesn't play into Vi's strength at that point, which is pure burst damage and reliable initiation. Do you just walk up to people, steal their MS and ult them after they flash out?
Feels like even with pre-nerf BotRK I'd rather buy burst and kill them on the spot than stick better but need to dive their turret to finish them off.
Re: Iceborn Gauntlet.
I'd feel uncomfortable dropping so much gold into so little tankyness early on. Your only damage is Spellblade from the 2700 cost, and you've got nothing against magic damage in there.
I feel like Vi should aim at being a legitimate threat at least when entering midgame, so that she can, if not kill her target outright with some help, at least zone it from the fight/force the enemy team to peel her off to create space.
Later on even going glass cannon you probably won't be able to kill a squishy (because even if you go triforce and deal half a marksman's health with your combo, they'll drop you before you finish the other half with autos/E once they aren't cc'd anymore), so might as well tank it up, and hopefully provide some decent damage (again, to blow up your ult target with your team) as you don't have a tank's cc or innate survivability.
BC was fine in s5 because its pricepoint was reasonable, between its 400 health and your shield you should be able to survive a mage's rotation, and you can start buying whatever tankiness you need (for me it was often HP/MR toward Locket, unless an AD is fed then Mercs and armour for Randuin's) before the enemy finish their 2nd major item.
Now I don't feel like you can have a mix of damage and survivability in one item and still not blow up the second a marksman gets its second zeal or major item, and if you have to go full tank right after Warrior on Vi (remember that new Warrior costs more and is weaker damage-wise because of her bases) then your threat is going to drop off to "insignificant" too fast to justify the Vi pick. So might as well go full damage on the second item (or at least component, and branch out if you're behind) and try to play to her strengths or skirmishes and catches, especially if towers fall faster and there's less vision.
|
On November 19 2015 08:18 Alaric wrote:
Edit: BotRK 2nd, Frolossus? It's 3800 gold now and doesn't play into Vi's strength at that point, which is pure burst damage and reliable initiation. Do you just walk up to people, steal their MS and ult them after they flash out?
Feels like even with pre-nerf BotRK I'd rather buy burst and kill them on the spot than stick better but need to dive their turret to finish them off.
Re: Iceborn Gauntlet.
I'd feel uncomfortable dropping so much gold into so little tankyness early on. Your only damage is Spellblade from the 2700 cost, and you've got nothing against magic damage in there.
I feel like Vi should aim at being a legitimate threat at least when entering midgame, so that she can, if not kill her target outright with some help, at least zone it from the fight/force the enemy team to peel her off to create space.
Later on even going glass cannon you probably won't be able to kill a squishy (because even if you go triforce and deal half a marksman's health with your combo, they'll drop you before you finish the other half with autos/E once they aren't cc'd anymore), so might as well tank it up, and hopefully provide some decent damage (again, to blow up your ult target with your team) as you don't have a tank's cc or innate survivability.
BC was fine in s5 because its pricepoint was reasonable, between its 400 health and your shield you should be able to survive a mage's rotation, and you can start buying whatever tankiness you need (for me it was often HP/MR toward Locket, unless an AD is fed then Mercs and armour for Randuin's) before the enemy finish their 2nd major item.
Now I don't feel like you can have a mix of damage and survivability in one item and still not blow up the second a marksman gets its second zeal or major item, and if you have to go full tank right after Warrior on Vi (remember that new Warrior costs more and is weaker damage-wise because of her bases) then your threat is going to drop off to "insignificant" too fast to justify the Vi pick. So might as well go full damage on the second item (or at least component, and branch out if you're behind) and try to play to her strengths or skirmishes and catches, especially if towers fall faster and there's less vision.
a very large portion of your damage comes from your W(should be maxed after Q), botrk has really good synergy with your W, i feel like the gold cost is negligible and 2% damage only really hurts your objective control. i think botrk + cleaver is still the best damage core for any character that gets most of it's damage from gap closing then autos(vi, shyv, noct). it was for sure the best option last patch but i don't feel like it's bad enough yet and that other options are good enough to justify replacing it
mid-endgame vi is going to have no issues dueling anything
|
What I meant is that your damage from Q-auto-E to trigger W, and your ult on top of it (which is about what you'll do in a gank/initiation on a squishy) is going to be much more than the autos themselves and the on-hit that go with it.
As Vi you're not supposed to solo a target but either cc-lock it during a gank, or paint a giant target on it for your team to blow-up in bigger fights, so you don't really get to trigger W a lot. Sure once the melee break out and you're hitting a bruiser you're doing it, but I consider the "blow up a carry" part the most crucial for Vi, so I'd build her with that goal in mind.
|
So, I updated my fancy Lux theorycrafting spreadsheet for season 6.
It's got a thing now where I can plug 1-3 builds into it and then there's a page that just gives results.
Looks like this: http://imgur.com/a/r77WM
Depicted is the differences between 3 builds, each Athene+Void+Deathcap, but then one with Ludens+Liandry, one with Ludens+Lich Bane, and one with Liandry+Lich Bane. Can you tell which is which?
Even though I don't actually play League, I still tend to have quite a bit of fun with it. I'll probably spend the next week finding errors in it though QQ.
|
Advice on top Irelia, Renekton, Malphite,& hecarim in terms of masteries/builds people would do? So far I've been leaning towards the Grasp of Undying but I'm not convinced that's the best compared to Deathfire for brawling on top lane.
|
I considered grasp, but how often do you really get to auto in a fight? I think you'd be very lucky indeed to get a second proc off of that, and for that reason I'd rather play it safe with strength of the ages or bond of stone (if you're gonna be peeling). And if you're gonna be a tank, is it worth it to dive all the way down into ferocity just to get an edge in lane?
|
Australia18228 Posts
I've been doing Fervor + Youmuus rush Renekton, does a ton of damage
|
One thing that's really screwing with me this patch is remembering not to drop a ward at the 0:30 to 1:00 mark.
If you don't you basically have perma wards after 3 minutes, it's great
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
