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On May 26 2015 02:43 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2015 01:01 nafta wrote:On May 26 2015 00:52 The_Unseen wrote:
While I never doubt your botlane wisdom nafta (you're much better than me anyways), aren't you a bit strong with your choice of words here? Can you actually LOSE a lane (after a double kill mind you) just because you didn't stick around for a couple creeps? If it's the case, I would appreciate you developing your thought a bit Well it doesn't really matter problem is that very often the wave will just slowly push towards tower so you could lose a wave and then if they can get a freeze going and you have to go back to lane to push it in you almost always get ganked.Obviously it depends on the creep situation but just pushing the wave as 3 really doesn't take that long.Sometimes if there are just 1/2 cs holding your wave you just ignore them obviously but depends gotta think about where wave will end up at.And almost always you won't have wards to drop after the gank. Obviously a lot depends on what champs you playing/who got kills/how much gold you both bought with cuz for example if ad got kill+assist and backs with 1300 other guy backs with 950 the difference in items is basically nothing. For that reason I actually consider longsword as an extra buy, bc it really does make a big difference. And pots too, having 3-4 pots when enemy has none or just one makes a big difference. Yes, it depends on the matchup, but it's usually worth it. And on champs like Cait or even Ashe, boots win lanes when you and opponent are even on damage. Only thing that sucks about longsword is that it can be considered a setback if you fall behind regardless afterwards on certain champ, since most champions tend to buy IE first and then SS/PD. But sometimes while playing Lucian or Graves, it can snowball to a kill and the worst thing your opponent can face is an IE GB Lucian in the early mid game.
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I've always been on the statikk shiv hype train cuz Sneaky almost always goes shiv instead of PD, but after trying PD you just get so much extra dps that I cant see how shiv is better. Sorry sneakers 
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On May 27 2015 23:32 IMoperator wrote:I've always been on the statikk shiv hype train cuz Sneaky almost always goes shiv instead of PD, but after trying PD you just get so much extra dps that I cant see how shiv is better. Sorry sneakers
Always liked buying shiv early and selling it for PD later, the proc is pretty strong early game unless theyve changed it
which i havent played in a very very very long time so its possible
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Phantom Dancer is slightly more expensive, has more crit, more attack speed, and negligibly less move speed. It's definitely better for DPSing enemies down.
Statikk Shiv is less gold and due to the Avarice Blade gold generation passive, it can be a lot cheaper. It's good early-mid game for additional burst and most importantly it's better for waveclear.
There's a legit choice between buying either. I don't think one is so OP it stifles out the other as a viable option. General rule of thumb I follow is, if I'm ahead and don't need waveclear I get PD. If I'm going even, behind, or need waveclear, I get Shiv. If you get to 6 items it's a good idea to sell Shiv for PD.
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On May 26 2015 00:52 The_Unseen wrote:
While I never doubt your botlane wisdom nafta (you're much better than me anyways), aren't you a bit strong with your choice of words here? Can you actually LOSE a lane (after a double kill mind you) just because you didn't stick around for a couple creeps? If it's the case, I would appreciate you developing your thought a bit
It depends on what the wave is doing. But potentially yes. You have to remember that the difference is not the 5 CS that your ADC gets, its also the CS that the enemy ADC doesn't get because the wave was pushed in or reset.
If the wave is pushing towards you then not going back will give the enemy tower damage, and deny all that CS from you. Then, since you're almost assuredly going to want to back after dragon/gank* you're going to go back while the wave is pushing towards the enemy, generating a nice big fat wave for them to get.
Rather what you want to do is the opposite, you want to shove the wave into their tower, denying the CS to the enemy. Then when the enemy gets back to lane the wave will either be neutral or slightly pushing towards you. But its unlikely to get to your tower before you arrive back in lane, which means it will have built up a nice big cushion of CS for you.
So the total differential here can be 10-15 CS on both sides. By not pushing the wave into the tower you lose 5 CS immediately, and 10 CS of built up creep wave when you get back to lane. But the enemy may also get 10-15 CS as the wave pushes into them nicely. That is nearly 2 kills worth of CS differential right there!
There are a couple of situations where it makes sense to ignore the wave, but for the most part is better to shove, and its the jungler/support who are making the mistake of leaving the lane before the wave is shoved into the tower than it is the AD who stays for the cs. Pushing the wave as three and giving all the CS to the support is probably better than letting the wave lay fallow and taking dragon.
*because if you don't go back despite having won the gank you will likely be behind in items and can lose the lane on that since you you've ceeded the power advantage.
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Guys I am looking for a table that shows acs counters. Something like 'vayne: counters X, countered by Y'. The website I check do not look reliable at all. I would like one of those cross tables, if you know what I mean.
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On June 04 2015 18:59 SoSexy wrote:
Guys I am looking for a table that shows acs counters. Something like 'vayne: counters X, countered by Y'. The website I check do not look reliable at all. I would like one of those cross tables, if you know what I mean.
I'm assuming you don't like this site?
http://champion.gg/champion/Vayne/ADC
I think it's pretty good, but I guess it doesn't tell the full story about laning.
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I actually did not know that site :O
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My tip is: as a support chose between recalling and roaming when your adc recalls.
Most of the time, recalling is the better choice since it gives you more power when you and your adc are back in lane. If you play someone like blitz, thresh, alistar, annie you can also go mid and get a kill there.
Just don't stay in lane as a support, you can't 1v2.
this is very general, ofc there are cases where this does not apply.
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Staying in lane is a perfectly fine option. While it's incredibly unlikely for you to get a kill, it's also incredibly unlikely for the enemy team to kill you as well unless they have some ridiculous lockdown-> instagib option or you play it really badly. Letting your opponent have the lane for themselves can be very bad-- they can go dragon, they can shove into the tower, set up a push etc. A warm body can prevent any of that from happening.
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yo how do you play vs. sivir lanes in general? especially ones that just spam their skills to waveclear so you're constantly pushed? it's hard to trade vs. her when you have no minions at all. anything you can do besides wait for your jungler to gank?
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On June 10 2015 03:10 IMoperator wrote:
yo how do you play vs. sivir lanes in general? especially ones that just spam their skills to waveclear so you're constantly pushed? it's hard to trade vs. her when you have no minions at all. anything you can do besides wait for your jungler to gank?
Well, to address your main point, she really can't insta-clear waves until she has a few levels and a BF sword. If she tries to do that early she'll run oom fairly quickly and be vulnerable because of it. In any event, if she's both using q and w on every wave she'll run oom eventually. You can also attack her while she's clearing the wave.
In general, laning against Sivir properly depends on who's supporting and how well she can block abilities with her spellshield. If she's good at using spellshield try to bait it out by walking up to her and autoing instead of using an ability. I've seen a trick with blitz where he fakes a grab by doing his laugh animation which can prompt Sivir to spellshield. Or you could even try to harass the support rather than harassing Sivir.
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Don't forget that Sivir has lower AA range than other champs, so you can abuse that pretty hard especially if you get to pick after
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On June 10 2015 05:51 Sonnington wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2015 03:10 IMoperator wrote:
yo how do you play vs. sivir lanes in general? especially ones that just spam their skills to waveclear so you're constantly pushed? it's hard to trade vs. her when you have no minions at all. anything you can do besides wait for your jungler to gank? Well, to address your main point, she really can't insta-clear waves until she has a few levels and a BF sword. If she tries to do that early she'll run oom fairly quickly and be vulnerable because of it. In any event, if she's both using q and w on every wave she'll run oom eventually. You can also attack her while she's clearing the wave. In general, laning against Sivir properly depends on who's supporting and how well she can block abilities with her spellshield. If she's good at using spellshield try to bait it out by walking up to her and autoing instead of using an ability. I've seen a trick with blitz where he fakes a grab by doing his laugh animation which can prompt Sivir to spellshield. Or you could even try to harass the support rather than harassing Sivir.
this doesnt really work unless the sivir is really bad.Since spell shield is instant unlike some of the other adc escapes(ez/cait etc) you don't use it same time that someone starts casting an ability but after the projectile or w/e is in the air.
Basically unless you have a dash to dodge her q dont fight her out of the creep wave and try to push her in since you can poke her easily under tower.Honestly other than basic abuse of range or forcing a spell shield followed by an all in while it is down there really isn't anything special other than playing safer than vs other ad cuz of the ult engage.
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On June 07 2015 17:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
Staying in lane is a perfectly fine option. While it's incredibly unlikely for you to get a kill, it's also incredibly unlikely for the enemy team to kill you as well unless they have some ridiculous lockdown-> instagib option or you play it really badly. Letting your opponent have the lane for themselves can be very bad-- they can go dragon, they can shove into the tower, set up a push etc. A warm body can prevent any of that from happening.
No. 1v2 you can't really do anything but be zoned off of creeps XP. If the enemy is in any way competent they will deny you the lane and/or punish you for being there. If they deny then staying in lane is no better than going B, getting zero HP/mana, and walking back with your AD. If they do damage then you're behind what you would be when your AD comes.
They don't have to kill you in order for you to lose your lane like this. They just have to force you to retreat and del some damage. If they can do that then then you will have to back by the time your AD comes back. And then they do the same thing to your AD. If they're smart they will attack you right before your AD gets back to lane, and create an indefinite 2v1 by timing their engages to force the enemy off creeps back.
The longest i have personally done that is three rotations. It gave us a 40 CS + 2 level lead in what should have been a losing lane. All because their bot lane lost their back synchronization. Easily won the game.
So by staying you gain basically nothing and lose potentially everything. Roam or back. Do not 1v2
The only exception is holding your tower, since they can't zone you from creep XP then and probably can't dive you
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On June 11 2015 19:14 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2015 05:51 Sonnington wrote:On June 10 2015 03:10 IMoperator wrote:
yo how do you play vs. sivir lanes in general? especially ones that just spam their skills to waveclear so you're constantly pushed? it's hard to trade vs. her when you have no minions at all. anything you can do besides wait for your jungler to gank? Well, to address your main point, she really can't insta-clear waves until she has a few levels and a BF sword. If she tries to do that early she'll run oom fairly quickly and be vulnerable because of it. In any event, if she's both using q and w on every wave she'll run oom eventually. You can also attack her while she's clearing the wave. In general, laning against Sivir properly depends on who's supporting and how well she can block abilities with her spellshield. If she's good at using spellshield try to bait it out by walking up to her and autoing instead of using an ability. I've seen a trick with blitz where he fakes a grab by doing his laugh animation which can prompt Sivir to spellshield. Or you could even try to harass the support rather than harassing Sivir. this doesnt really work unless the sivir is really bad.Since spell shield is instant unlike some of the other adc escapes(ez/cait etc) you don't use it same time that someone starts casting an ability but after the projectile or w/e is in the air. Basically unless you have a dash to dodge her q dont fight her out of the creep wave and try to push her in since you can poke her easily under tower.Honestly other than basic abuse of range or forcing a spell shield followed by an all in while it is down there really isn't anything special other than playing safer than vs other ad cuz of the ult engage.
You're right, it's not a 100% sure fire technique. That's why I said it can work, not will. Also, people with high ping are forced to use spellshield as soon as they see the animation. Another factor is spellshielding early when enemies are close to you and you don't have time.
I think Cyanide did a pretty good job explaining how to spellshield in his Nocturne guide.
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EPT
