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I've seen threads asking about how to bot lane, how to support, or how to ADC. It's a rather complicated question. It's not as cut and dry as mid or top because of how many combinations of champions there are. Fundamentally a 2v2 should be more complicated than a 1v1. I figure everyone knows something about the lane and it could be fun to pool the information together. So share you knowledge of the lane! It can be as simple as ward locations or as obscure as individual champion interactions. Just try to keep it rather specific, I really don't want to see things like, "Keep your lane warded as a support."
If there's ONE THING I think you should know about bot lane, it's the level 2 power spike. Level 2 is the most important power spike in bot lane. It's even more important in a 2v2 than a 1v1. There's inherently more pressure in a lane with more champs. Getting level 2 first can and should give you lane dominance. This will set the tone for the lane right from the beginning, if you play it properly. When you hit level 2 you gain the highest percentage increase of base stats from leveling than any other time in the game and you double the number of abilities you can use on the enemy. You'll get level 2 with your lane partner once you kill the third melee minion on the third wave.
Position yourself aggressively or passively depending on which side is going to level first. If both sides are playing properly it should be a race to level 2. If you hit level 2 first go in and do some damage to the enemy. There's almost no way they'll be able to out trade you. If the enemy hits level 2 first, run away before the third minion falls. Whoever hits level 2 first will have push pressure and lane control. The support will have enemy side brush control. With this brush control the support should be able to zone and harass the most efficiently. You also have the option to auto the minions first before they meet in the middle of the lane. This will mean you're pushing harder than the opponent and if you get ganked/all-inned you'll have more minions on your side to trade damage. Along with opening options to more safely harass or all-in the enemy.
Even more important than the advantage you get in lane is knowing how good your support/ADC is. This is the IQ test I give all my lane partners. If your ADC doesn't try to get level 2 first or your lane partner doesn't position properly to take advantage of the power spike. You can't be certain they'll understand laning dynamics of the champs involved. So at this point, don't try to make flashy plays or risky harass. You'll just get mad that your idiot support/ADC because they didn't heal you and follow up properly. At this point just play the lane out passively, try to cs the best you can, or zone/ward the best you can while staying safe.
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So basically level 2 is important bot lane because 2 people have a better chance of getting a kill, even 2v2 than 1 person does of getting a kill in a 1v1. Partly due to the increase in damage, partly due to the squishiness of bot laners, and partly due to the relative strength of the champs relative to the strength of creeps/towers. Thus a level 2 will more likely lead to a snowball even though the risk of getting ganked from pushing is about the same. Gotcha.
Should you see people start pushing the wave as soon as it gets past the enemy tower then? This way they pretty much guarantee hitting level 2 first though it forces the jungler to adapt by going to the place where top can leash.
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lvl 2 power spike is the reason behind uzi being such a good adc.
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One thing I've noticed as an adc is how support should not only help you aa for lvl 2, but if the wave gets pushed under turret, he/she should also help you last hit. -I fucking hate supports that don't help you last hit or shove-
Before your first buy it's extremely difficult and frustrating to have a wave crashing at your turret, not being able to last hit. Good supports tend to do some damage to the minions (one aa on casters, n hits on melees depending on how high they are) so you can last hit effectively.
If you're a strong duo, you should always try to freeze right before their turret, so you can call for ganks or initiate if they make a mistake, because they must always overextend.
Last thing I'm going to say about wave dynamics is even though you can't always last hit perfectly under turret, you can see the dynamic of the wave moments in advance, so you can prep a bit before it crashes into turrets. Auto attack the minions appropriately beforehand so you can last hit in junction with the turret a little bit more easily.
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If you are thresh and you miss the targon's proc more than 2/5 attempts and waste the cs gold, just go ahead and get an amulet coin until you can hit it on point. Likewise if you're adc and your thresh messes up the kill on the tank, just cs as if he's not even there. It's not worth losing ~150g in lane waiting for your thresh to learn how to last hit.
/endrant
Some common sense stuff: If you have a sustain support you should use AS quints to help with early trades/scale better, otherwise get lifesteal quints since this will help you stay in lane and not get bullied back to base.
Supports with cc (basically everyone nowadays) can easily land it or deny valuable tank/minion gold by just timing the enemy last hit with your own cc - this is especially easy if the adc is staying out of auto range for safety and is only coming up to last hit.
I personally think the support's use of exhaust single-handedly wins trades/fights/lanes/games and so many people screw up the timing of it. I use it mainly as a baiting tool in lane where the adc's are within 2-3 autos of dying and often tunnel vision hard on a kill without realizing their dps is basically nothing for 2-3 whole seconds. Thus the best case scenario for enemy adc is to flash away and get forced out of lane or just die. Generally bad use of exhaust is at the beginning for the slow alone (it can be good if jungler is incoming or the target is grossly out of position).
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On May 19 2015 04:01 SwizzY wrote:
If you are thresh and you miss the targon's proc more than 2/5 attempts and waste the cs gold, just go ahead and get an amulet coin until you can hit it on point. Likewise if you're adc and your thresh messes up the kill on the tank, just cs as if he's not even there. It's not worth losing ~150g in lane waiting for your thresh to learn how to last hit.
/endrant
Some common sense stuff: If you have a sustain support you should use AS quints to help with early trades/scale better, otherwise get lifesteal quints since this will help you stay in lane and not get bullied back to base.
Supports with cc (basically everyone nowadays) can easily land it or deny valuable tank/minion gold by just timing the enemy last hit with your own cc - this is especially easy if the adc is staying out of auto range for safety and is only coming up to last hit.
I personally think the support's use of exhaust single-handedly wins trades/fights/lanes/games and so many people screw up the timing of it. I use it mainly as a baiting tool in lane where the adc's are within 2-3 autos of dying and often tunnel vision hard on a kill without realizing their dps is basically nothing for 2-3 whole seconds. Thus the best case scenario for enemy adc is to flash away and get forced out of lane or just die. Generally bad use of exhaust is at the beginning for the slow alone (it can be good if jungler is incoming or the target is grossly out of position).
How is it even hard to last hit as Thresh? If you can't do it normally just use the massive damage flay passive.
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On May 19 2015 04:01 SwizzY wrote:
Supports with cc (basically everyone nowadays) can easily land it or deny valuable tank/minion gold by just timing the enemy last hit with your own cc - this is especially easy if the adc is staying out of auto range for safety and is only coming up to last hit.
Are ADC's back to running LS quints? I've still been using AS on everyone.
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On May 19 2015 04:15 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2015 04:01 SwizzY wrote:
If you are thresh and you miss the targon's proc more than 2/5 attempts and waste the cs gold, just go ahead and get an amulet coin until you can hit it on point. Likewise if you're adc and your thresh messes up the kill on the tank, just cs as if he's not even there. It's not worth losing ~150g in lane waiting for your thresh to learn how to last hit.
/endrant
Some common sense stuff: If you have a sustain support you should use AS quints to help with early trades/scale better, otherwise get lifesteal quints since this will help you stay in lane and not get bullied back to base.
Supports with cc (basically everyone nowadays) can easily land it or deny valuable tank/minion gold by just timing the enemy last hit with your own cc - this is especially easy if the adc is staying out of auto range for safety and is only coming up to last hit.
I personally think the support's use of exhaust single-handedly wins trades/fights/lanes/games and so many people screw up the timing of it. I use it mainly as a baiting tool in lane where the adc's are within 2-3 autos of dying and often tunnel vision hard on a kill without realizing their dps is basically nothing for 2-3 whole seconds. Thus the best case scenario for enemy adc is to flash away and get forced out of lane or just die. Generally bad use of exhaust is at the beginning for the slow alone (it can be good if jungler is incoming or the target is grossly out of position). How is it even hard to last hit as Thresh? If you can't do it normally just use the massive damage flay passive.
I have a feeling you'd have very fun times in plat
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On May 18 2015 15:12 obesechicken13 wrote:Should you see people start pushing the wave as soon as it gets past the enemy tower then? This way they pretty much guarantee hitting level 2 first though it forces the jungler to adapt by going to the place where top can leash.
Sure, you can do that. Keep in mind, if you push the first wave too quickly it can get stuck in an awkward spot closer to the enemy tower mitigating your level 2 aggression. Even so, I'd rather have level 2 first and lane dominance than play the lane on my back foot. A lot of times, in pro play, you won't see the jungler get a leash at all or it's just the support helping.
Also it depends on how much you like your jungler and how much you want him to like you.
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On May 19 2015 02:08 Uldridge wrote:
One thing I've noticed as an adc is how support should not only help you aa for lvl 2, but if the wave gets pushed under turret, he/she should also help you last hit. -I fucking hate supports that don't help you last hit or shove-
Before your first buy it's extremely difficult and frustrating to have a wave crashing at your turret, not being able to last hit. Good supports tend to do some damage to the minions (one aa on casters, n hits on melees depending on how high they are) so you can last hit effectively.
If you're a strong duo, you should always try to freeze right before their turret, so you can call for ganks or initiate if they make a mistake, because they must always overextend.
Last thing I'm going to say about wave dynamics is even though you can't always last hit perfectly under turret, you can see the dynamic of the wave moments in advance, so you can prep a bit before it crashes into turrets. Auto attack the minions appropriately beforehand so you can last hit in junction with the turret a little bit more easily.
I play to take care of myself, I've been playing ADC for a long time and these help situations don't occur as often as you'd think if you plan your hits accordingly. However, a support that can help with last hitting when you fuck up is useful.
Supports can develop this skill by playing a good amount of ADC... they'd understand how and when to help and it's the only really necessary help you need for farming under tower.
Support that "help" and ruin my flow (auto attacking minions I prepared for tower hits), I find that much more annoying than a support that doesn't help.
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As a support, always hit an ADC with an AA when they come into last hit and continue to do so as long as you can remain in your minion line or you would need to extend into a dangerous position. Your AA's don't do a lot of damage individually, but they're completely free and add up to significant damage. AA damage over a time in a passive lane can often be enough to give you the HP advantage and allow you to zone the enemy away from the creepwave, potentially giving you a huge advantage in the lane.
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Keeping wards in lane bushes during laning is good as a support so when I'm Top I can teleport and get free kills. The same goes for denying vision in the lane bushes. Just be mindful that some Top laners use TP for other things than just for getting back to farming.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I often find that when I shove for level 2 in bot lane, what ends up happening is that during the time when we're level 2 and they're level 1, they're just shoved under turret and as a Leona (for example) there's not much I can do. Then they hit level 2 while under turret and the whole level 2 advantage didn't amount to much. What am I doing wrong?
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On May 22 2015 23:29 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I often find that when I shove for level 2 in bot lane, what ends up happening is that during the time when we're level 2 and they're level 1, they're just shoved under turret and as a Leona (for example) there's not much I can do. Then they hit level 2 while under turret and the whole level 2 advantage didn't amount to much. What am I doing wrong?
I used to have this issue a lot, just don't hard shove the first wave too much, wait til the second wave is almost there to start hard shoving. The second wave is the important wave.
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Also, note that in some ranged vs melee support lanes, if you (as a ranged support) auto harass the enemy ADC when csing, but their (melee) support doesn't for fear of taking a lot more harass, the lane will start pushing in your favor as their minions aggro onto you. If you're also auto-ing minions, this can lead to the situation described above where you hit level 2 but are shoved so far into the lane that it's risky to all-in them.
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This thread is great
When you get one or two kills in botlane thanks to a jungler gank, please don't waste 10 seconds greeding over 5 CS and come help on Dragon right at the first jungler's ping, not the fifth
Conversely if the jungler is a shitlord, spam ping that drake so that he maybe realises it is free
That shit makes quite a difference over time
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On May 26 2015 00:24 The_Unseen wrote:
This thread is great
When you get one or two kills in botlane thanks to a jungler gank, please don't waste 10 seconds greeding over 5 CS and come help on Dragon right at the first jungler's ping, not the fifth
Conversely if the jungler is a shitlord, spam ping that drake so that he maybe realises it is free
That shit makes quite a difference over time
Don't agree at all.Drake is so overrated.You could easily actually lose the lane from going to drake instead of pushing the wave first.
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While I never doubt your botlane wisdom nafta (you're much better than me anyways), aren't you a bit strong with your choice of words here? Can you actually LOSE a lane (after a double kill mind you) just because you didn't stick around for a couple creeps? If it's the case, I would appreciate you developing your thought a bit
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On May 26 2015 00:52 The_Unseen wrote:
While I never doubt your botlane wisdom nafta (you're much better than me anyways), aren't you a bit strong with your choice of words here? Can you actually LOSE a lane (after a double kill mind you) just because you didn't stick around for a couple creeps? If it's the case, I would appreciate you developing your thought a bit
Well it doesn't really matter problem is that very often the wave will just slowly push towards tower so you could lose a wave and then if they can get a freeze going and you have to go back to lane to push it in you almost always get ganked.Obviously it depends on the creep situation but just pushing the wave as 3 really doesn't take that long.Sometimes if there are just 1/2 cs holding your wave you just ignore them obviously but depends gotta think about where wave will end up at.And almost always you won't have wards to drop after the gank.
Obviously a lot depends on what champs you playing/who got kills/how much gold you both bought with cuz for example if ad got kill+assist and backs with 1300 other guy backs with 950 the difference in items is basically nothing.
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On May 26 2015 01:01 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2015 00:52 The_Unseen wrote:
While I never doubt your botlane wisdom nafta (you're much better than me anyways), aren't you a bit strong with your choice of words here? Can you actually LOSE a lane (after a double kill mind you) just because you didn't stick around for a couple creeps? If it's the case, I would appreciate you developing your thought a bit Well it doesn't really matter problem is that very often the wave will just slowly push towards tower so you could lose a wave and then if they can get a freeze going and you have to go back to lane to push it in you almost always get ganked.Obviously it depends on the creep situation but just pushing the wave as 3 really doesn't take that long.Sometimes if there are just 1/2 cs holding your wave you just ignore them obviously but depends gotta think about where wave will end up at.And almost always you won't have wards to drop after the gank. Obviously a lot depends on what champs you playing/who got kills/how much gold you both bought with cuz for example if ad got kill+assist and backs with 1300 other guy backs with 950 the difference in items is basically nothing.
For that reason I actually consider longsword as an extra buy, bc it really does make a big difference. And pots too, having 3-4 pots when enemy has none or just one makes a big difference. Yes, it depends on the matchup, but it's usually worth it. And on champs like Cait or even Ashe, boots win lanes when you and opponent are even on damage.
Only thing that sucks about longsword is that it can be considered a setback if you fall behind regardless afterwards on certain champ, since most champions tend to buy IE first and then SS/PD, it can set you back. But sometimes while playing Lucian or Graves, it can snowball to a kill and the worst thing your opponent can face is an IE GB Lucian in the early mid game.
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EPT
