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We all know SoloQ can be a pain in the butt. One of the most frustrating situations I've run into is winning my lane, then trying to carry a bad ADC. Maybe the ADC fed in lane. Maybe the bruiser and support aren't peeling for him. For whatever reason, your ADC just isn't a factor in teamfights.
What is a strong strategy for carrying a heavy ADC? As a fed mid, I can usually instantly blow up one of their carries in a teamfight (I play Swain, Ryze, Lux, Orianna, or Khaz mid), but then eventually their bruisers become too much if my ADC isn't doing anything.
What's a decent strat for carrying a bad ADC? Splitpush with bruiser?
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Peel? acd's that I see on the ladder tend to be just able to auto attack in the best of times. if your a ryze just sit back with the adc and combo down bruisers and make them want to deal with you more then the adc.
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having a good support so he can win the lane/protect the ad carry in fights, most of the time people are able to autoattack just fail hard at positioning And as Ryze or something you can just kill the bruisers?
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If you're playing a bruiser, shoving survivability down their throats through Locket/Bulwark/Randuin's active tends to help.
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On February 14 2013 01:26 Crownlol wrote: We all know SoloQ can be a pain in the butt. One of the most frustrating situations I've run into is winning my lane, then trying to carry a bad ADC. Maybe the ADC fed in lane. Maybe the bruiser and support aren't peeling for him. For whatever reason, your ADC just isn't a factor in teamfights.
What is a strong strategy for carrying a heavy ADC? As a fed mid, I can usually instantly blow up one of their carries in a teamfight (I play Swain, Ryze, Lux, Orianna, or Khaz mid), but then eventually their bruisers become too much if my ADC isn't doing anything.
What's a decent strat for carrying a bad ADC? Splitpush with bruiser?
Start maining ad and wonder how to make your solos not lose so hard or how to kill a warmog/sunfire champion before 20 minutes :D.
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Usually if their ADC is more of a threat than your own it is better as a bruiser to dive and kill them rather than to peel for your own ADC. Trading ADCs should be in your favor but beware if they also focus on peeling you.
When you're useless as the ADC (0-9-4 or something very bad and assuming the rest of your team is good) just sit back behind the team where only an Ezreal Ult could touch you. Then just wait until all the bruisers chunk each other down to 2/3 HP before even starting to shoot. Very few bruisers are willing and able to just walk through your team at that point. I might even suggest a FM for your ADC at this point if he has no natural peel.
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I've been having quite the success playing Rumble mid. You start the fight whenever you want, and teams generally follow!
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On February 14 2013 06:46 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 04:37 Ghost-z wrote: Usually if their ADC is more of a threat than your own it is better as a bruiser to dive and kill them rather than to peel for your own ADC. Trading ADCs should be in your favor but beware if they also focus on peeling you.
When you're useless as the ADC (0-9-4 or something very bad and assuming the rest of your team is good) just sit back behind the team where only an Ezreal Ult could touch you. Then just wait until all the bruisers chunk each other down to 2/3 HP before even starting to shoot. Very few bruisers are willing and able to just walk through your team at that point. I might even suggest a FM for your ADC at this point if he has no natural peel. if you're that bad as an adc in the first place that thought won't even occur to you
But there's plenty of times as adc where you fall behind during laning and have to tread cautiously midgame. Sometimes you're outclassed, sometimes a successful gank gets them ahead, sometimes a misplay puts you behind and snowballs and sometimes there's just some plain early luck involved. Being behind doesn't mean you have to derp in teamfights.
The debate about the worth of ADC is going on everywhere atm. If you don't smash your lane you have very little impact on midgame teamfights. The question has to be asked whether it's worth protecting someone who's has the little relevance to the outcome of the fight at this point. Particularly as an AP your time is probably better spend blowing up the highest priority target you currently have available.
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i'm slumping pretty hard lately and my laning phase has gone from awful to god awful, but my mid-game/late-game has still been decent if i can get there.
when i'm ADC and i'm behind, which is almost always the case, i try to farm up as hard as possible. generally when bot lane tower falls, the enemy bot lane will start wandering to other lanes. ward up your side of the map and start farming. (if you have to buy your own wards, buy them.) tell your support to go help other lanes. don't freeze your lane, push it and then take jungle farm. even if you're behind, you need to play your best to not fall behind even farther.
for the rest of the team, what helps is that the entire team needs to play with the mentality that it will be 4v5 to get their ADC back online. warding is probably the most important aspect; you never want to engage in small skirmishes unless you are sure that no one will come to reinforce, and wards can also set up or prevent devastating ambushes, and all the other heroes except adc should be buying them. 1-for-1 trades are no longer worth it, so don't go for kills unless you can get 2 or you can reasonably expect to live after the fight.
sometimes you can't do anything, but at least try your best.
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If you are ever behind (as a team), you have to adjust your builds to the situation and make sure everyone is playing their role in team fights.
1. Items Say you're a bruiser/tank/etc, you want to be building pure defence here. Skip your damage items, get those giant's belts, warmogs, frozen hearts, randuins, thornmail, etc. Your mentality should be to buy time for your carries to farm and hopefully get you guys back in the game.
On the other hand if you are the adc or apc, just build pure offense. Skip that guardian angel, you need damage to stay relevant and you need to play like a boss. Get caught and it's gg, but that's how it is when you're behind. Needless to say, in the opposite scenario (when you're fed) you should be building defensive items. You already do sufficient damage, the only way you can lose is if you get caught / focused down in team fights.
Assume your team is stupid until they prove otherwise. If their build sucks, tell them what to build. If your adc is getting screwed by amumu, tell them to get a mercurial scimitar. If you need an oracles, tell your support (or whoever can get it) to buy one. If your apc keeps getting focused and your team comp can't peel for them, tell them to get a zhonyas. Just don't tell them their build sucks or they won't listen to you.
If your carries are that bad (like completely and utterly useless / feed train that doesn't stop / they're better off just going afk) then the game is pretty much over, and it's up to your opponents to throw.
2. Teamfights Make damn sure everyone knows what they're doing in teamfights. Assume your team is stupid and knows nothing about team fighting until they prove otherwise. TELL THEM WHAT TO DO.
If your carries are at all relevant, make sure someone peels for them. If you have good focused damage (irelia, diana, nocturne) then make sure you are diving the right targets.
Learn to give up objectives that are lost. If you can't stop them from doing baron, don't waste your time watching them do it. Go push a lane, take a tower, secure your jungle buffs, etc. You don't lose the game by giving up baron, you lose if you fight them near baron, get aced, then give them baron for free.
Ward, ward, ward. Unless you have full 6items, buy a god damn ward. Everyone can buy wards.
3. Champions Some champions are better than others in soloq. What a shocker. You can get to 2k elo playing any role (including defensive support), but if you can play the roles that have a larger impact on the game, you're more likely to move to a higher elo than you would playing a less impactful role.
I personally believe mid/jungle to be the best for this (highly dependent on champion selection). As a mid laner, you get your own lane for exp/gold, you can farm your own jungle, defend your buffs, challenge their buffs, roam and gank top/bot lanes, challenge for dragon, etc. The minute you have an advantage as a mid laner, you can translate it into anything. Compared that to say, if you played top lane. Say your bot lane starts off 0-5, the game is now out of your control. There is generally nothing you can do as a top laner to help them. You have to count on your jungle/mid to bail them out, and if they don't the game is over. And what happens if you get an advantage as a top laner? What does that translate to? Sure you're hella tanky in teamfights, but that means jack all when your team has no damage. You can counter jungle...? Not very impactful. You can gank mid and hope they don't know what a ward is? This is assuming your champion can even gank the champion at mid.
Champions that can translate an advantage into something else for the team are the best in soloq. Twisted fate and Evelynn are unique examples for their unrivaled roaming ability. For jungle, abuse the fact that you aren't playing at the pro level. People don't like to ward in soloq, abuse it. Pick champions who gank really well and stay relevant throughout the game. Champions like maokai or leesin are solid soloq picks.
tl;dr 1. Learn your items, share your knowledge with your team, don't rage at them. 2. Tell your team how to teamfight, and play your role. Don't rage at your team. 3. Some champions stomp soloq, while others are a situational choice. If you're after elo, you're better off learning a champion like Twisted Fate than you are grinding out 500 games, playing as Soraka support.
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Think people don't give credit to how hard being an ADC is at the moment. In the 'League of Warmogs' it becomes harder to kill people, not to mention the introduction of so many Champions that can now leap, stun, do huge burst damage, and all three in combination.
Honestly, sometimes there isn't anything you can do as an ADC when for example a Jax, Maokai, and Kat jump you. And in a large number of situations, it doesn't matter what your team do when something like that happens.
The obvious would be to ask them to change the items they build. Recently i've been getting a Giants Belt after building PD and BT, in order to actually last longer than two seconds.
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On February 15 2013 00:46 Rixxe wrote: Think people don't give credit to how hard being an ADC is at the moment. In the 'League of Warmogs' it becomes harder to kill people, not to mention the introduction of so many Champions that can now leap, stun, do huge burst damage, and all three in combination.
Honestly, sometimes there isn't anything you can do as an ADC when for example a Jax, Maokai, and Kat jump you. And in a large number of situations, it doesn't matter what your team do when something like that happens.
The obvious would be to ask them to change the items they build. Recently i've been getting a Giants Belt after building PD and BT, in order to actually last longer than two seconds.
It's definitely the hardest time ever for ADC's. One new meta we've been employing with great effectiveness is having our ADC play mid, with doubleAP bot. This was talked about in the "General" thread, but that thread gets crazy and I'm very thankful for the new subsections.
We thought it would be kind of trolly, but it ended up working great. Our mid had no problem against their AP mid, and was able to pressure the tower hard enough that the AP mid couldn't roam. Our doubleAP bot lane was very strong against the weak earlygame ADC, able to grab a kill or push enemy from lane any time a CC was landed (were playing Kennen/Ryze).
With the nice sololane farm, plus some of our own jungle, our ADC got just as fed as always (was playing MF). We were pressuring bot hard enough that their jungle was forced to try to camp bot, while our jungle just rotated between ganking mid and top.
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On February 14 2013 03:31 krndandaman wrote: how bad is bad? cause there are uncarryable adc's out there. I played with an ashe that went 0/10 in the first 8 minutes or so and ran from team fights (just fired his ult and ran). He finished the 30 minute game with just a BT, PD, boots2 and dorans (final score of 1/20 or something stupid). A level 30.
edit: also had less damage dealt to champions than our sona.
This is a massive problem with Ashe and Ezreal bads, especially. They ONLY use their abilities, then run away, landing no autoattacks at any point during a teamfight. Overall dps so low at that point.
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On February 15 2013 01:59 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 03:31 krndandaman wrote: how bad is bad? cause there are uncarryable adc's out there. I played with an ashe that went 0/10 in the first 8 minutes or so and ran from team fights (just fired his ult and ran). He finished the 30 minute game with just a BT, PD, boots2 and dorans (final score of 1/20 or something stupid). A level 30.
edit: also had less damage dealt to champions than our sona. This is a massive problem with Ashe and Ezreal bads, especially. They ONLY use their abilities, then run away, landing no autoattacks at any point during a teamfight. Overall dps so low at that point. idk what elo you are in but it either you're exaggerating a lot, or the players are so bad it doesn't matter if their ashe, ezreal, or playing adc at all. if you're consistently running into players that bad they're gonna screw you no matter what role.
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Is the question how to carry a bad adc or how to win when the enemy bruisers/assassins are better than yours? ADCs in season three are increasingly less impactful at all stages of the game except level1. This means that even if they get ahead they are not destroyers of worlds but it also means that them being behind is less important.
That being said. The answer to a failing lane has not changed. Win your lane harder, push down turrets, roam and snowball your non failing lanes. This is especially true in the league of warmogs with a failing adc since your ADCs are less impactful. Once you're winning overall the global gold advantage and reduced pressure will allow your adc to be farm up and be effective. Your fed bruisers/assassins will be able to remove the enemy adc from the fight while the weaker enemy bruisers will fall.
On a theoretical level it's clear that early tank scales harder than early damage since early damage has to compete with base ability damage while early tank does not. If you buy 1000 HP when you have 1000 HP you've doubled your tank. If you buy 70 damage when you have 70 damage you have increased the damage on your 280 base damage ability by 25%. So the best course of action if you're trying to maximize your teams effectiveness is to make sure your tanks are ahead in the early game.
Edit I should elaborate. If you increase your tanks early game effectiveness and reduce the enemy tanks effectiveness you will comparatively increase your ADCs damage more than if you help your adc by the same amount.
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On February 14 2013 10:43 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 07:38 Amarok wrote:On February 14 2013 06:46 krndandaman wrote:On February 14 2013 04:37 Ghost-z wrote: Usually if their ADC is more of a threat than your own it is better as a bruiser to dive and kill them rather than to peel for your own ADC. Trading ADCs should be in your favor but beware if they also focus on peeling you.
When you're useless as the ADC (0-9-4 or something very bad and assuming the rest of your team is good) just sit back behind the team where only an Ezreal Ult could touch you. Then just wait until all the bruisers chunk each other down to 2/3 HP before even starting to shoot. Very few bruisers are willing and able to just walk through your team at that point. I might even suggest a FM for your ADC at this point if he has no natural peel. if you're that bad as an adc in the first place that thought won't even occur to you But there's plenty of times as adc where you fall behind during laning and have to tread cautiously midgame. Sometimes you're outclassed, sometimes a successful gank gets them ahead, sometimes a misplay puts you behind and snowballs and sometimes there's just some plain early luck involved. Being behind doesn't mean you have to derp in teamfights. The debate about the worth of ADC is going on everywhere atm. If you don't smash your lane you have very little impact on midgame teamfights. The question has to be asked whether it's worth protecting someone who's has the little relevance to the outcome of the fight at this point. Particularly as an AP your time is probably better spend blowing up the highest priority target you currently have available. well yeah, that's if you're a little behind. he was talking about going 0-9-4 or something ridiculous. that's not being a 'little' behind lol. thats just being relatively bad (or just bad lol)
That's fucking awful. Like you can't carry an ADC who goes 0/9/4 in lane unless everyone else on your team won super hard. But the fact is an AD carry shouldn't be posting a score like that. Ever. People should also realize that there are simply some games that are unwinnable and it makes more sense to surrender and move on rather than rage or try to think about ways to carry someone who's awful.
On February 15 2013 00:46 Rixxe wrote: Think people don't give credit to how hard being an ADC is at the moment. In the 'League of Warmogs' it becomes harder to kill people, not to mention the introduction of so many Champions that can now leap, stun, do huge burst damage, and all three in combination.
Honestly, sometimes there isn't anything you can do as an ADC when for example a Jax, Maokai, and Kat jump you. And in a large number of situations, it doesn't matter what your team do when something like that happens.
The obvious would be to ask them to change the items they build. Recently i've been getting a Giants Belt after building PD and BT, in order to actually last longer than two seconds.
Being an ADC main sucks right now. I have to smash lane or else I have to play pussy until I get serious items. It's probably not a bad thing as ADC was potentially a bit too strong in S1 and S2. Also in S1 I felt like playing ADC was crazy easy compared to now but maybe just general player skill has improved while my skill has mostly stayed the same or something. Although no, I'm pretty certain ADC was easier and stronger in S1 considering you got to solo lane so you had level advantage and every bruiser/tank was relegated to duo lane bottom or jungle. It's like every season now ADC has gotten a bit weaker. Not necessarily a bad thing, just an observation.
As for the second part of your post, you can always position better. I feel like some people (not necessarily you) are polarizing ADCs in this thread as people who either constantly do DPS or never do DPS. The fact of the matter is if it's not safe for you to do DPS in a lot of situations it's much smarter to do little or no DPS and clean up the fight later (or try your best to defend your tower after your idiot team wipes in a bad fight). Can't tell you how many times I've seen the jungler or top laner initiate a bad team fight only to get pissed that I didn't suicide so that I could get off two extra autos on the enemy Malphite before being blown up. ADC has to do as much DPS in a fight as possible but that doesn't mean he has to constantly DPS.
Part of me hopes that they do something to make AD carry stronger as you were already weaker than top and mid during the midgame. But then again part of me thinks it's ok because you're still probably the strongest lategame role. ADCs might just have to get used to building a bit more tanky or else wait for Riot to nerf defensive items and/or buff offensive items.
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Going defensive items on ad isn't really worth it.Unless you are stomping you should never get more than a giant's belt or qss before you have ie(bt)/zeal/lw at least.Unless you are vayne or kog you will do 0 dmg.Better positioning is always the answer.Yes there are some champions which force you to get defensive items but with barrier you should be able to handle it.
The guys recommending going mallet are wrong.Never go mallet when you are BEHIND(or ever tbh).Like do you want to do less dmg than a supp?My biggest advice to anyone playing is just to cs well and position well.If you get defensive items you don't do dmg so you just have to compensate by being good.
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I think ADs could toy around with going Tabi or Mercs instead of Zerkers. Getting your BF item+Zeal and then a defensive item isn't going to put you that far behind the opposing ADC. People did BT->Zeal/PD into GA rushes all the time near the end of S2. If you don't have to be as afraid of dying you're going to be able to output more dps in a fight.
I'd agree that in a full six item build you probably don't want more than one pure defense item. But some of the defensive boot options could potentially be solid on certain ADs or against the right team comps and getting your tank item after two damage items isn't going to put you drastically behind your opponent.
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On February 14 2013 09:05 kainzero wrote: i'm slumping pretty hard lately and my laning phase has gone from awful to god awful, but my mid-game/late-game has still been decent if i can get there.
when i'm ADC and i'm behind, which is almost always the case, i try to farm up as hard as possible. generally when bot lane tower falls, the enemy bot lane will start wandering to other lanes. ward up your side of the map and start farming. (if you have to buy your own wards, buy them.) tell your support to go help other lanes. don't freeze your lane, push it and then take jungle farm. even if you're behind, you need to play your best to not fall behind even farther.
for the rest of the team, what helps is that the entire team needs to play with the mentality that it will be 4v5 to get their ADC back online. warding is probably the most important aspect; you never want to engage in small skirmishes unless you are sure that no one will come to reinforce, and wards can also set up or prevent devastating ambushes, and all the other heroes except adc should be buying them. 1-for-1 trades are no longer worth it, so don't go for kills unless you can get 2 or you can reasonably expect to live after the fight.
sometimes you can't do anything, but at least try your best.
I think I may have just broken a brutal slump last night, finally. The worst part is, I've been winning lanes pretty handily. One of the problems, I believe, is that I'm queuing with two friends, who are lower ELO than myself. Perhaps they're playing against better opponents, etc.
Here's how things have been happening for the last two weeks: I play ADC or mid, and handily win my lane (or sometimes at mid, its a passive tie). One of the lanes I'm not in loses, and the other one feeds badly... say 1/5/0 in the laning phase. Once we enter the lategame, the opposing team knows I'm the only source of significant damage, and tunnels me into the ground, cleaning up my team easily after I'm dead.
Reading this thread actually helped- even though I was way ahead of the opposing ADC in items, I had to REALLY stay out of teamfights in order to make a difference. As in, wait until the engage had already happened, Q+AA as graves or mf, then get out of LoS, then repeat. I was literally having to bush dance every single auto attack- however, I ended up cleaning up handily.
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On February 15 2013 01:59 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 03:31 krndandaman wrote: how bad is bad? cause there are uncarryable adc's out there. I played with an ashe that went 0/10 in the first 8 minutes or so and ran from team fights (just fired his ult and ran). He finished the 30 minute game with just a BT, PD, boots2 and dorans (final score of 1/20 or something stupid). A level 30.
edit: also had less damage dealt to champions than our sona. This is a massive problem with Ashe and Ezreal bads, especially. They ONLY use their abilities, then run away, landing no autoattacks at any point during a teamfight. Overall dps so low at that point.
I always associated this with Ezraels and Caitlyns (probably because caitlyn's Q takes so damn long). In general, ADCs that never auto attack are a pretty sad sight to see but it became extinct to my eyes >1300. I always guessed it was people who never peel for the adc on another role & rarely see peel for them. It can be a bit frustrating to step in and be the one to peel and blow all your cooldowns only to watch the adc keep on running and the enemy turn around and bite your face off :p
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On February 14 2013 10:43 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 07:38 Amarok wrote:On February 14 2013 06:46 krndandaman wrote:On February 14 2013 04:37 Ghost-z wrote: Usually if their ADC is more of a threat than your own it is better as a bruiser to dive and kill them rather than to peel for your own ADC. Trading ADCs should be in your favor but beware if they also focus on peeling you.
When you're useless as the ADC (0-9-4 or something very bad and assuming the rest of your team is good) just sit back behind the team where only an Ezreal Ult could touch you. Then just wait until all the bruisers chunk each other down to 2/3 HP before even starting to shoot. Very few bruisers are willing and able to just walk through your team at that point. I might even suggest a FM for your ADC at this point if he has no natural peel. if you're that bad as an adc in the first place that thought won't even occur to you But there's plenty of times as adc where you fall behind during laning and have to tread cautiously midgame. Sometimes you're outclassed, sometimes a successful gank gets them ahead, sometimes a misplay puts you behind and snowballs and sometimes there's just some plain early luck involved. Being behind doesn't mean you have to derp in teamfights. The debate about the worth of ADC is going on everywhere atm. If you don't smash your lane you have very little impact on midgame teamfights. The question has to be asked whether it's worth protecting someone who's has the little relevance to the outcome of the fight at this point. Particularly as an AP your time is probably better spend blowing up the highest priority target you currently have available. well yeah, that's if you're a little behind. he was talking about going 0-9-4 or something ridiculous. that's not being a 'little' behind lol. thats just being relatively bad (or just bad lol) I've gone from around 1-7-4 to 10-7-lots, more than once, and carried to victory. (Then again, I find that I position better in teamfights but I need to work on my laning)
My only point is, not every ADC with a severely negative KD ratio at the 15 minute mark is complete garbage.
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On February 15 2013 05:45 nafta wrote: Going defensive items on ad isn't really worth it.Unless you are stomping you should never get more than a giant's belt or qss before you have ie(bt)/zeal/lw at least.Unless you are vayne or kog you will do 0 dmg.Better positioning is always the answer.Yes there are some champions which force you to get defensive items but with barrier you should be able to handle it.
The guys recommending going mallet are wrong.Never go mallet when you are BEHIND(or ever tbh).Like do you want to do less dmg than a supp?My biggest advice to anyone playing is just to cs well and position well.If you get defensive items you don't do dmg so you just have to compensate by being good.
Mallet's a good item on ADC... AFTER your offensive core. It's an item to get when you're the THREAT, not when you're 1-7 with only a BT to your name.
Also, if someone can't stutterstep as ADC in the first place, mallet isn't going to do much. You have to be constantly moving to take advantage of it, but it's helped me go from "I do tons of damage but getting focused too hard and I can't kite all this" to "Now I carry this game"
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