EPT[TL R&D] T.R.O.L.L.S. - Page 35
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necrosed
Brazil885 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On February 19 2013 07:39 Seuss wrote: On a different subject, I've been thinking about Homeguard. I need to do some measurements regarding how much time it saves on a recall due to the movement speed, but they seem much more powerful in general than one might assume. The value of Homeguard is in arriving in lane/jungle or at objectives sooner. 15 seconds might not seem like a significant difference in returning speed, but that can equate to additional CS, farm, or salvaged objectives. Very, very often in games I see players recall at a slightly inopportune time, at which point the enemy jungler quickly moves to try and rush an objective. Fairly often this window is small enough that Homeguard boots could be the difference between giving up the objective and arriving in time. If your team all builds Homeguard, and your opponents do not, the power to fight, recall, and rush to another important location will be significantly superior. Situations like pushing a tower/inhibitor at the cost of Dragon/Baron may be averted. At the very least, a jungler with Homeguard would have an easier time rushing to a hotspot after a clear or gank. Part of what diminishes the apparent value of Homeguard is a common lack of pre-recall preparation, most players aren't prepared to shop before they arrive back in base. I'm often guilty of this myself, but the delay in returning to the lane can be very substantial. When it takes 5-8 seconds to heal fully it's not as big of a deal to stop and think, but with Homeguard you want to get moving instantly. In any case, I'm curious if all-Homeguard teams might be useful for more than trying to recover a losing game. I buy Homeguard boots really early in all my ranked games on every character now. My typical Lux midlane build is Chalice first, and then Fiendish Codex / Homeguard Sorcs in either order depending on the situation. Especially for mid lane I feel like Homeguard is such a gigantic difference just in your roaming potential. It saves you a ton of time walking to lane, and the earlier you get them the more time they save you over a long game. Plus if your team starts losing and you're defending inhibitors, you already have Homeguard. For top and bot lane I tend to get them a little later because in those lanes you tend to stay in lane for long periods of time and roam less, but I still get them. I never buy any other boot upgrade, I don't see how any of them are as good as Homeguard on anybody ever. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
AD Carries I like furor way too much to go for Homeguard. The kiting potential +12% MS on autoattack gives is just too good. I wouldn't even consider selling boots for Zephyr/PD no matter how much gold I had. Everything else... yeah, Homeguard. It's just too effective, and it's the cheapest option to boot. Whether you're splitpushing, losing, or winning but doing things like taking an inhibitor -> heal -> get to baron before they counter-desperation baron. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On February 19 2013 14:28 sylverfyre wrote: I really like distortion boots on Annie, and I could imagine them being amazing also on Galio and other power-initiators without great positioning skills to get that perfect initiate. ESPECIALLY if you're running TP+Flash. Then again, homeguard teleport is also pretty awesome. AD Carries I like furor way too much to go for Homeguard. The kiting potential +12% MS on autoattack gives is just too good. I wouldn't even consider selling boots for Zephyr/PD no matter how much gold I had. Everything else... yeah, Homeguard. It's just too effective, and it's the cheapest option to boot. Whether you're splitpushing, losing, or winning but doing things like taking an inhibitor -> heal -> get to baron before they counter-desperation baron. I could actually see Furor being amazing on a Thresh, Q and that auto poke giving you some sticking power would be awesome. | ||
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Sc2eleazar
United States70 Posts
(Bonus FYI: map out cost/regen of a blue-buffed champ with chalice+4 tears...potential regen/mana mid-game?) | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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necrosed
Brazil885 Posts
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LazyFailKid
Canada750 Posts
Don't have thresh but maybe his hook works off a distance traveled mechanic? Like its coded to pull a unit over whatever distance it calculates from the start of the pull, however what would happen if thresh Q'd then ran toward his target and stood on top of him and the chain couldn't pull anymore then quickly ran back before the 2nd pull began or something? | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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Sc2eleazar
United States70 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On February 20 2013 09:24 Sc2eleazar wrote: Quick excel math: Kog with unholy grail + seraph's + 4 archangel's staff + blue buff + max cdr soraka infuse = 25 living artillery over 31 seconds (6 seconds stopped for debuff to drop). After that 6 seconds off / 10 shots / 6 seconds off / etc. That requires charging FIVE tears. You're easily still charging tears 50 minutes into the game, at least you would be if you COULD charge five tears... the passives won't let you do it. At most you can get 3 tears worth in a Seraph, a Muramana, and then another tear. After that all you can build are Rods of Ages. No defense or boots whatsoever is also super unrealistic and since the Seraph/Muramana's AP/AD passives won't stack with AA/Manamune you're not going to do much damage since you no longer can get a million AP from AA stacking and Kog's ult has TERRIBLE ratios. Even with a few stacked AAs of old all anyone needed to do was build some HP and MR and you became irrelevant in S2. Moreover, in practice it's pretty much a given that Rylai's is a huge staple for AP Kog. Even Froggen bought Rylai's and he had amazing aim and tons of experience abusing AP Kog in his heyday. Making your ult slow simply increases your poke and team fight threat a ton as one hit immediately leads to more hits. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
And positioning, someone mentioned position like an AD carry.. no. You should be BEHIND your AD carry. And WTF 4 tears. No. Just no. It takes minimum 10 minutes for a tear to charge if you're doing nothing but sitting at fountain spamming low-cd abilities as fast as the tear cooldown allows. Kog's problem as an AP is mostly that he doesn't really get strong until at least level 11 and a Rylai's, you need the additional range and damage of your higher ulti levels before you're a serious threat. Also, his kit isn't particularly good at dealing with jumping bruisers or assassins, especially if they jump on your face - AP Nidalee - a similar power-poke - deals with this much better. and is strong much earlier. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
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Mondeezy
United States1938 Posts
Definitely works. I went 9/0/21 although I imagine 0/13/17 works well too for a tankier build. Rushed a chalice/philo, spam harass early with E-Q combo. Very easy to zone low range ads such as Vayne. Once you get 6 the fun starts. Have jungler run through lane brush, ult their ADC and watch them melt while you tank and spam slows to peel for your ad. It's even stronger in lategame teamfights, Shurel your team and flash-ult the ap or ad. If they focus you, your team cleans house. If they don't, spam slows on the opposing bruiser to keep him off your AD, using mikaels if necessary. Someone else try it as I may have just gotten lucky the few games I played with it. Siv and Soraka is by far the hardest lane I've had to play vs. | ||
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Sc2eleazar
United States70 Posts
Edit: 1) this was an exercise in how far a mechanic could be abused 2) 400ish damage artillery rounds firing with that much frequency is still a siege nightmare especially if the rest of kog's team is built around "you don't want to come out and fight us" 3) charging archangel's takes 6 minutes 15 seconds Ok I'll show the math: 750 mana 6 mana per spell is 125 spells. 3 seconds per spell is 375 seconds or 6 minutes 15 seconds Edit 2 : for quick kicks and giggles I plugged fully charged archangels into my spreadsheet: 29 shot opening salvo with ~12 shot follow-up salvos | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
It's fun to math out that sort of build, but it's not remotely practical. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On February 21 2013 06:30 Sc2eleazar wrote: Actually my math assumed only the seraph's was charged. The archangels were uncharged. With blue buff uncharged archangel roughly equals fully charged roa for mana regen RoA gives you 650 mana charged. An uncharged AA staff gives 250 mana and 10 mp5. Blue buff actually works in favor of RoA because RoA gives more max mana. Since blue gives 2.5% of your maximum mana in Mp5, AA will give you 2.5%*250 = 6.25 mp5 while RoA will give you 650*2.5% = 16.25 MP5. So if you total in AA's base mana regen it equals RoA's with blue. So all said and done RoA looks similar to extra AA staves, right? No. With RoA you have 400 extra mana at the end of the day since both regen rates are equal. This is aside from the fact that RoA gives you get 20 more AP and 650 more health. If you compare it instead to an uncharged RoA the AA staff will have 5 Mp5 up on the RoA which means RoA will be short 30 mana (60 if you pretend chalice is at maximum) in your 30 second spam cycle, but, again, RoA will still have 200 more mana to start with. Edit: 1) this was an exercise in how far a mechanic could be abused 2) 400ish damage artillery rounds firing with that much frequency is still a siege nightmare especially if the rest of kog's team is built around "you don't want to come out and fight us" I understand you wanted to look for a abuseable scenario but with 17k gold and no boots ANYTHING will look abuseable. When you theorycraft everything relies on how realistic your assumptions are for your results to be practical. Just plugging in 17k gold and level 18 into a Kog Maw without taking into account that maybe there are cheaper builds that do more damage per gold spent over the course of a siege, the effect MR has on your ability to siege, or the fact that walking around without boots is not an option whether or not you're playing the poke/siege game, all those things hurt the ability of your theorycraft to be useful. In fact vs strong pokers you WANT to go out and fight the poke team. Poke teams inherently have weaker team fights. Even if Kog Maw is the only poker on his team his team fight presence is super small compared to other APs especially in the midgame and pre-11. As a rule when I'm dealing with a fairly unknown variable in theorycraft I tend to make reasonably pessimistic assumptions. If the thing I'm examining looks OP even under those circumstances THEN you know it's OP. On February 21 2013 07:38 Seuss wrote: Charging Archangel's takes much longer than 6 minutes and 15 seconds. It's theoretically possible to charge a Tear in just 9 minutes and 22.5 seconds, but practically speaking even spammy champions like Ryze take at least 20 minutes. If you had infinite mana and an endless stream of targets hitting the theoretical maximum might be possible, but in reality it simply doesn't happen. It's fun to math out that sort of build, but it's not remotely practical. To be fair Ryze's kit is actually pretty horrible for charging tear since it requires targets and his spammyness is in a burst, not constant. Kog maw is a lot better off and with just blue buff can charge tear a whole lot better since he doesn't need a target and his ult is so cheap. Realistically though the only item he'll have charged with that build is Seraph since none of the AA's stack so it's completely moot. | ||
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Sc2eleazar
United States70 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Yes, there is a cheapest build, and I know what it is. | ||
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