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But you need to survive, that is also why you max Q first... want it or not you are melee and you need to get on people to ult them, what the hell does your W do when you're in there ?
The added Q burst allows you to get people closer to the low hp mark which procs your E and allows you to go in and out as you like and to heal more.
The only thing I could agree with is the fast tower pushing but how often does that happen in solo queue ? Yes people rotate slower but they also regroup slower to push down towers. Do you want to rely on your team to win games in solo queue ? Or maybe you were talking about a 5v5 strategy with your team ? Honestly if you're playing with a team you'd do them a favour by not playing warwick.
I have more than a hundred diamond games on jungle warwick this season, he's a fun champ and he can clearly carry hard but there is a reason he's never picked in competitive (yes I know that jin air game, spoiler alert they lost it pretty badly) he has no ganks before 6.
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My perception of how Warwick early game functions (and by early game, I mean once you hit 6) is "spreading the map" as much as possible. Ie, creating unfair skirmishes where it's 2v1, 3v2, or even 3v3 where someone gets exploded. You quickly eliminate your target, then secure objectives in the aftermath as much as possible. If it's a 3v2 situation, you wipe out one target, group up and push tower if the wave allows, and it drops like a fly if you have sufficient levels in w. It creates a lot pressure because if the waves are built up enough you can threaten the secondary tower off one good kill, which forces the other team to react and creates a different pressure point when they're trying to deal with you. \
Another example where w max helps is if they do 4 man ganks bot and take dragon. If you're mid with your AP and have a wave, you can plow to the secondary and sometimes outright kill it depending on how low the outer tower was. 4 man ganks generally take a ton of time when they're diving, so its not too unusual to have two waves to do this (which is a really long time when you have an attack speed buff that large). This opens up the map tremendously, and alleviates a lot of pressure.
Yes, it takes a lot of awareness to do this and it is predicated somewhat on your team. Maybe it would work better in a 5s situation (I kind of doubt it, because spreading the map against a coordinated team is way harder). I wouldn't say my team is carrying me. I've got ~20 games as Warwick in ranked at the plat level, and an 80% + winrate. Not quite your level of competition, but I'm not talking completely out of my ass on this. Most of these games were pre-feral flare too (and a decent wriggles items + feral flare probably made the general concept a lot stronger- haven't played much lately because drops hacks and connection issues that cropped up with patches pretty much killed my desire to play ranked for the time being).
Another thing is, you actually need mana for max q to be significantly better than w. Let's assume Warwick is level 9 with no mana items, no blue buff, and either max q or max w, one point in e, and the rest in the other skill you didn't max (so 5 levels in the primary skill, 2 in the secondary, 1 in your ult, 1 in your e). Warwick will have 460 mana. Let's assume you come to the fight with 400. Not crazy, that's less than one q of mana and somewhat realistic coming out of the jungle.
If you have max q: you ult and you're down to 300 mana. You use q once, you're down to 190 mana. But you have to use w at some point (or are likely to, at any rate). So now you're 155. So you can get one more off before you're constricted by mana regen, so you get 2 q's off (leaving 35 mana).
If you max w and have 2 points in q: you ult down to 300 mana, you q once you're now at 220. You w, you're at 185. Hm... you can get two more q's off after this, although the cooldown is a bit higher (9 seconds vs 6 seconds). You'll also probably have enough to w a second if the fight happens to last that long, given regen. I realize that these fights are generally time dependent, but it's difficult to account for that. If you don't die, let's call it a non-factor for the time being. So all this ends up with:
Damage from Q's:
Max Q (2 q's, 110 mana each): 550 flat, or 32% of targets max health (if the 16% exceeds 275 damage)
Max W, level 2 Q's (3 q's, 80 mana each): 375 flat, or 30% of targets max health (if the 10% exceeds 125 damage)
Wait... that's weird. The only difference is 175 flat damage (so 140 health regained from the flat part) or 2% max health damage. Is that really that much (I mean sometimes it is, but if you're not killing a target with it, it's probably not. Hard to predict at the very least)? Granted it's spread out over a fight more for the 3 Q's, but I'd argue that's a good thing (unless you need it to burst a target right this second)- depending on how a fight breaks out, the health regained can largely be wasted on your first q. Unless all of the enemy damage is being dumped upon you very quickly (but you're probably dead in that case anyways).
Take home message: your mana pool matters a lot. If you come into a fight with slightly less mana and max q, you're not really doing that much more. So you either need a fast mana crystal, or to hog blue buff like your life depends on it. Otherwise the damage difference is somewhat negligible over the course of a fight from Q's alone early on when your mana pool still sucks. So W should be winning by a lot unless you have a large mana pool or blue buff, given the amount of attack speed it is giving your entire team (wouldn't shock me if the W only hitting you offset it, and then any other team mate that gets your buff is juts gravy). Except in fringe cases where your lower burst means a dead target vs an alive one and the alive enemy contributes significantly to the fight as it continues.
The longer the fight goes on, I imagine the better max w gets. There's probably a threshold fight length that has to be met before it's better though.
I'm fairly sure I worked out the math on scratch paper before, looked at this and went "damn, given a realistic situation its really easy for max q to suck given clear speed differences..." That being said, I generally hog the crap out of blue buff regardless, so maybe I should max q.
Check my math, I'm prone to screwups.
Edit: Typos. Also, that was a giant wall of text. Might edit for further clarity down the road, because that is really stream of conscious as is. Fixed an error with q being flat or % max health.
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ACTIVE: Warwick swipes at a target enemy, dealing magic damage for the greater value between a flat minimum amount or a percentage of the target's maximum health, plus additional bonus damage based on his ability power.
FLAT MINIMUM DAMAGE: 75 / 125 / 175 / 225 / 275 (+ 100% AP)
MAX MAGIC DAMAGE TO CHAMPIONS: 8 / 10 / 12 / 14 / 16% of target's maximum health (+ 100% AP)
Assuming he has 0 AP, at level 1 he either deals 75 damage, or 8% max health damage. The break point is at ~940 health.
Flat % Breakpoint
75 0.08 937.5
125 0.1 1250
175 0.12 1458.333333
225 0.14 1607.142857
275 0.16 1718.75
If it does flat and additional max health damage I will max Q every single fucking time.
Also not sure why you think it'll be easier for you to Q 3 times with rank 2 Q. At rank 2 your Q has 8 seconds cooldown. At rank 5 it's 6 seconds.
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Also let's take a look at his "mana problem".
Say in a mid-game situation. You are level 11. Let's see what he can do with R > Q > E > W build and how much mana he needs.
First of all, at level 11, he has 190 + 30 * 11 = 520 mana.
Rank 5 Q: 110 mana, 6 seconds cooldown
W: flat 35 mana
R: 125 mana
You are not realistically going to poke people with your Q. Generally speaking when you start the fight you will be at full mana. With that mana pool, you can:
RW = 160 mana, you get 360 mana left.
That's enough for you to Q 3 times. That's plenty, because at 6 seconds cooldown and assuming 10% CDR (I am being generous), that's more than 10 seconds. By that time the teamfight is over.
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Thanks for pointing out the error about applying flat or % (I knew that, overlooked it in a long analysis).
I think you're very rarely going to start fights at full mana, unless you plan on clearing jungle camps very slowly or never q-ing people ahead of time. Realistically, that rarely happens. I don't think saying "you're probably going to enter a team fight at 85% mana" is stretching things. If anything, on average, it's probably a lot lower than that unless its a prepared fight (aka, dragon, baron).
Solo que fights that are small skirmishes go over 10 seconds fairly frequently, which is the point- if you're maxing q and trying to make the most use of it immediately, mana is likely to be a bigger limitation than time. At least that's my experience. 5v5s are a different story.
Let's assume mana is irrelevant and you're level 11 and get 3 Q's in...
Max Q's (3)- 825 damage, or 48% max health
Level 2 (3)- 375 damage, or 30% max health
Sure, that looks a lot worse. But if you start with max mana, that's a pretty large bias because it costs 110 mana per q, so tilting it favorably via levels and having full mana is going to shift things substantially. If anything, to me that suggests putting points in q and w more equally is probably the most optimum way of doing things if you want to balance clear speed, mana concerns, burst, and team fight survivability or you really need to invest in glacial shroud fairly early. Even if mana concerns are nonexistence, it's not like the attack speed isn't providing extra damage. 450 damage would require about 4 extra ADC autos? The buff lasts 10 seconds, so that's pretty much it right there, give or take. Less burst for potentially more sustained damage. Granted if you have blue buff this all goes to hell and Q compares more favorably.
At any rate, I'm not claiming max w is straight up better, mostly that its a lot more competitive than people realize depending on what exactly you value. And that mana constraints matter a whole hell of a lot, which I think people that play Warwick realize already, so this isn't exactly ground breaking stuff.
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Sufficiency, there's a very big thing you're not taking into account here..
WW is also my most played jungle champ, I also max w. The reason for this is because once you get 6 (you rush it obviously), your goal is, like zer0 said, to control the map, create unfair skirmishes, outmindgame their jungler, wards everywhere etc.
The big thing I max w is because it gives an extreme attack speed buff to your adc (and potentially other champs who needs aa). Thereby your baron/dragon/tower taking becomes extreme after you take someone down with your ult (or you know, you can just solo dragon at lvl 6+ when you got madreds/wriggles)
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On June 26 2014 10:41 Sufficiency wrote:
Also let's take a look at his "mana problem".
Say in a mid-game situation. You are level 11. Let's see what he can do with R > Q > E > W build and how much mana he needs.
First of all, at level 11, he has 190 + 30 * 11 = 520 mana.
Rank 5 Q: 110 mana, 6 seconds cooldown
W: flat 35 mana
R: 125 mana
You are not realistically going to poke people with your Q. Generally speaking when you start the fight you will be at full mana. With that mana pool, you can:
RW = 160 mana, you get 360 mana left.
That's enough for you to Q 3 times. That's plenty, because at 6 seconds cooldown and assuming 10% CDR (I am being generous), that's more than 10 seconds. By that time the teamfight is over.
I don't know how you call 3 Q's "plenty" on a champion that tends to have to chase after people for a long time to do respectable damage
the whole point of having so much healing and chasing ability is to clean up long fights
there are champions that can interrupt your R easily, so being leftwith just your W and autos and 3 q's seems horrendously weak
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On June 26 2014 13:16 zer0das wrote:
Thanks for pointing out the error about applying flat or % (I knew that, overlooked it in a long analysis).
I think you're very rarely going to start fights at full mana, unless you plan on clearing jungle camps very slowly or never q-ing people ahead of time. Realistically, that rarely happens. I don't think saying "you're probably going to enter a team fight at 85% mana" is stretching things. If anything, on average, it's probably a lot lower than that unless its a prepared fight (aka, dragon, baron).
Solo que fights that are small skirmishes go over 10 seconds fairly frequently, which is the point- if you're maxing q and trying to make the most use of it immediately, mana is likely to be a bigger limitation than time. At least that's my experience. 5v5s are a different story.
Let's assume mana is irrelevant and you're level 11 and get 3 Q's in...
Max Q's (3)- 825 damage, or 48% max health
Level 2 (3)- 375 damage, or 30% max health
Sure, that looks a lot worse. But if you start with max mana, that's a pretty large bias because it costs 110 mana per q, so tilting it favorably via levels and having full mana is going to shift things substantially. If anything, to me that suggests putting points in q and w more equally is probably the most optimum way of doing things if you want to balance clear speed, mana concerns, burst, and team fight survivability or you really need to invest in glacial shroud fairly early. Even if mana concerns are nonexistence, it's not like the attack speed isn't providing extra damage. 450 damage would require about 4 extra ADC autos? The buff lasts 10 seconds, so that's pretty much it right there, give or take. Less burst for potentially more sustained damage. Granted if you have blue buff this all goes to hell and Q compares more favorably.
At any rate, I'm not claiming max w is straight up better, mostly that its a lot more competitive than people realize depending on what exactly you value. And that mana constraints matter a whole hell of a lot, which I think people that play Warwick realize already, so this isn't exactly ground breaking stuff.
You are not going to Q any jungle camps unless you need sustain. His Q does pitiful single target damage anyway and there is no point to use it. Wriggle + attack speed marks + cycle W and Smite is enough.
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On June 26 2014 18:42 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2014 10:41 Sufficiency wrote:
Also let's take a look at his "mana problem".
Say in a mid-game situation. You are level 11. Let's see what he can do with R > Q > E > W build and how much mana he needs.
First of all, at level 11, he has 190 + 30 * 11 = 520 mana.
Rank 5 Q: 110 mana, 6 seconds cooldown
W: flat 35 mana
R: 125 mana
You are not realistically going to poke people with your Q. Generally speaking when you start the fight you will be at full mana. With that mana pool, you can:
RW = 160 mana, you get 360 mana left.
That's enough for you to Q 3 times. That's plenty, because at 6 seconds cooldown and assuming 10% CDR (I am being generous), that's more than 10 seconds. By that time the teamfight is over. I don't know how you call 3 Q's "plenty" on a champion that tends to have to chase after people for a long time to do respectable damage the whole point of having so much healing and chasing ability is to clean up long fights there are champions that can interrupt your R easily, so being leftwith just your W and autos and 3 q's seems horrendously weak
Well first of all, if you get interrupted you still gapclosed. In certain aspect it is mission accomplished. WW is no Kat, so even if he does he is still a huge threat.plus he is not squishy.
3 Qs is plenty because in most of the teamfights 10 seconds is enough to (almost) decide the outcome. Once it is almost decided, you can just as well clean up without Q or W... your natural attack speed may be enough to do the job.
Think about it this way. The first 10 seconds of the teamfight you are in far greater danger. So if you max Q first you maximize your initial power for a shorter timeframe, where as with W you strike for an even power curve but less initial damage/sustain. I will choose more initial power.
And don't let me get to the part about actually autoing people should you max W first. Q is actually a bit longer than an auto.
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yeah but if you care most about the first 10 seconds of a teamfight maybe you shouldn't be playing warwick
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Actually, after 10 seconds WW rules, with or without mana.
W max just makes his post 10sec strong at the cost pf his pre 10 seconds.
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On June 26 2014 09:52 zer0das wrote:
huge wall of text.
I run spirit stone so I'm always full mana when coming out of the jungle. Also I have a hack that gives me even more mana, it costs 35 gold :-).
edit : also I'm going to max W in all my next jungle ww games then come back and give feedback. Expect a lot of rage due to being killed in the jungle by fucking lee sin.
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Seriously I think mana potions are the most undervalued item in this whole game. It's ridiculous how strong they are.
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A mix of even levels Q/W worked pretty well upon trying it. I did notice mana running out faster, but it wasn't too awful.
If you never use Warwick's Q on jungle camps, and you have a single point in w your clear speed is going to be garbage all game long. I don't think that's the best approach if you plan to win.
I think Q max makes more sense with a spirit item, and is probably better in that case. Or with blue hogging, as previously mentioned. Warwick blows without mana, and if you believe otherwise, you need to play the champion more.
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Maxing Q then W or W then Q or a mix is definitely not the way to go. You need to rank up your E pretty quickly in order to be useful. If you think otherwise, you need to play the champion more.
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I never said completely neglect E. I said level Q/W evenly.
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From looking at multiple high elo guides and Probuilds.net, I couldn't find a single person who maxes W over Q. E actually seems like a fairly common 2nd max.
I made a custom game to test out Q max vs W max jungling speeds. Using attack speed marks/quints and 9/21, they were basically identical. I reached 52 CS at around the 9:00 mark on both.
Q seems to simply be better.
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It also depends on your comp, though. W is a team-wide aspd buff. For some comps that can be overwhelmingly better than a bit more survivability on the jungler, and it also helps take down objectives faster in groups.
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TL LoL, what is your ideal WW composition?
I dunno, I like playing the champion, but I think a Xin Zhao does everything WW does but better at this stage of the game, especially if the Xin manages to get a Feral Flare by the 20 minute mark.
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EPT
