EPTOn July 02 2012 16:50 iCanada wrote:Yeah, I've done it before too and it is really strong if the other team doesn't build MR. If you can get Sorc Shoes+haunting guise within 10-12 minutes it actually increases your damage like 20-30%. 40 magic pen OP because unlike armor pen magic pen reduces MR below zero.
Wut.[Champion] LeBlanc - Page 4
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
I crazy. o.o lol. But the rest of what I had to say pretty much stays the same. Its like getting a Bruta on a top laner, if they gonna come with a chain vest first back you might as well not even bother. With that being said, who doesn't build MR vs LeBlanc? | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
Build in question: Guise + Sorc shoes (200 HP, 20 MPen, 25 AP) Control: 3x Doran + Sorc shoes (240 HP, 12MP5, 45 AP) Lane Opponent runes- 30 MR base + Flat MR blues & quints (let's assume they picked a decent runepage and not some 0 mr garbage. If they did that you could do the day9 strategy of "just fucking kill them") 54 MR Your runes: MPen Reds - 8.55 MPen, flat MR blues, flat AP Quints (14.95 AP) Your masteries: 1 AP/level, 5% AP. No flat ap because flat AD is generally accepted as a better choice. No havoc / executioner because they affect both builds equally (well, technically executioner favors the higher damage build because you get them below 40% sooner.) 45.51 Modified MR (68.72% damage taken) after you get sorc shoes: 25.51 Modified MR (79.67% damage taken) after you get haunting guise: 5.51 Modified MR (94.78% damage taken) Q Total at 9 - 330+0.9AP R at 9: 363+0.99AP R at 11: 412+1.125AP E at level 1: 40+0.5 AP (potentially x2 if leash doesn't break) W at level 2 or 3 (2 at 9, 3 at 11) (85 | 125) + 0.6AP damage So we're going to look at the damage of a QR at level 9 (level 2 W or level 1 E to pop the second sigil for silence + extra damage) or RQ (again, w or e to pop) at level 9 (Is this a fair assessment of when you reach 2600 gold on a normal day?) Level 9 stats: Dorans : 9 + 45 + 2.7 AP = 56.7 AP Guise: 9 + 25 + 1.7 AP = 35.7 AP Level 9 Combo: QRE - .9+.99+.5 combo - 2.39 AP Ratio 3 Dorans + Sorc: 0.7967 (330+363 + 56.7*2.39) -> 0.7967*828.5 = 660 Damage Haunting Guise + Sorc: 0.9478 (330+363+35.7*2.39) -> 0.9478 * 778.3 = 737 Damage Wow, that's a pretty big difference. It's only going to get bigger as you add in AP items to both builds. But what happens when the enemy gets an early Negatron Cloak? This lowers the power of Magic Penetration, so is the guise still better? Dorans+sorc = 25.51 + 48 = 73.51 Modified MR = 57.64% Damage taken Guise+Sorc = 5.51 + 48 = 53.51 Modified MR = 65.14% Damage taken Again, at level 9: 3 Dorans + sorc vs negatron cloak: .5764 (330+363 + 56.7*2.39) = 478 Damage Guise + sorc vs negatron cloak: .6514 (330+363+35.7*2.39) = 507 Damage Less powerful, but still more damage. Again, as you add AP, the guise actually improves faster than just building AP items, because it increases your damage MULTIPLIER, which means each point of AP is worth proportionally more. There is a breaking point where the guise isn't worth it, but apparently it's beyond 100 MR. It also depends on your base damage vs your AP ratios, but Leblanc has pretty high ratios (especially on R) and the guise is still worth it. It can't be ignored that the Haunting Guise is pretty severely lacking in MP5, though - Leblanc's mana costs are significant. I realize I forgot to include 10% MPen. I don't wanna redo the math D: With the lead it has however, I think it can be agreed upon that guise is more damage until over 100 MR. | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
Summoners: Heal and Flash/CV/Exhaust/Ignite/Cleanse Masteries and Runes: Whatever you run on your other supports. Skills: EWQ, then max Q if you need to kill people and E if you need to peel for your carry super hard. Max W second in all cases. R/Q/W/E or R/E/W/Q Items: Philo -> Kage -> Guardian Angel -> Oracles whenever you have GA up -> Mejai's -> Morello's -> 5 wards at all times -> spam blue pots too now -> Banshee's -> Rylai / Deathcap / Void Staff Which boots? Ionian, Sorcs, Mercs, Tabi, and Mobility boots are your choices. I pretty much only get Mercs and Mobility. The drawback to Ionian is that you don't have the mana to keep up that level of ability usage. Sorcs is for people who want to do more damage, and you don't need more damage as badly as you need more survivability. Tabi is good for taking one or two more autos from a late game carry, but they're not enough of a difference to be worth giving up the slipperiness or the map control. Mobilities are the best for map control, and my choice most of the time. If you take cleanse, take mobis. Mercs are only better if the enemy team has lots of AoE disables (well, even just one makes Mercs worth considering). Your goal is to get Guardian Angel, an Oracle's, a Mejai's, and 40% CDR, in that order. Usually, this means Philo Kage then GA parts. Keep ward coverage up, but try to get your carry/jungle to pick up a few because GA stands for God Mode. Unless you're really fed, the most difficult part of the game is getting to GA. Once you have GA your playstyle totally changes and you can take many more risks. Before GA, you're a squishy mage with low burst but high mobility and lots of CC. If your lane partner has a disable, try to let them hit it first, then follow up with QWE. Otherwise poke with E, then follow up with QW. You're very good at escaping ganks, so try to save your lane partner by spamming Es at the jungler. After GA, you're basically invincible unless you play super brave. Use your oracles well - your team should have full map vision at all times, and the enemy team should have zero. You can w into a bush and poof back out before the enemy team has time to react, so bait like a champion. Remember, every disable you absorb is one not aimed at your carry! In teamfights, just keep whoever's diving your carry either silenced or snared. Save W for critical silence procs or escaping (or bravely fasecheking some brushes). If you have >10 mejai's stacks, you can try playing the assassin, but you're still unlikely to hit that critical 100->dead unless the enemy carry is scrubface. Remember that once you have Morello's 99% of games will end before even Banshee's, and those that don't, you usually want to leave your 6th slot open for a full stack of wards, but those are your best choices for item. If you don't like mejai's, those are your best replacements. Use your mobility to keep the map clear of enemy wards; steal a little farm here and there too. You can get places remarkably fast, especially with Mobi boots, so abuse that to get some $$brouzoufs$$. When does Labonk work? As a bot lane partner, Labonk wants someone who pokes well, like Ezreal or Varus, or someone who can take the damage well, like Graves. A strong ganky jungler is also a huge asset. Nautilus, Shyvana, Lee Sin and Amumu are all good teammates. Champions that love having map control love Labonk. Twitch and Evelynn are pushing the limits of teamfight-suckery, though. Fiddlesticks is one of the best partners for Labonk, and nicely shores up her teamfight weaknesses. Champions that can shield or heal Labonk greatly extend her annoying survivability. Try Morgana, Lee Sin, or Shen. When does Labonk NOT work? Don't pick Labonk into a high-AoE-damage team. Unlike assassin labonk, you don't care if they're all super tanky. You just don't want to accidentally die while they're targeting someone else. Don't pick Labonk into Graves, or a tanky support on the enemy team. You will cry. Try to avoid Karthus, as while you can ensure he dies in fights, he will ensure that you do too, and you don't want to lose that oracles. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
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Hyren
United States817 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On August 02 2012 03:55 Tooplark wrote: It's a 2 second snare. You can, with perfect timing, keep someone locked down for 14 full seconds. The only reasonable way to improve it would be to decrease the trigger time on the snare portion. The other thing that would be nice would be slightly tweaking her base numbers so she doesn't blow up automatically. I think LeBlanc should be allowed to cancel her E early to active the snare. In exchange, the second half of E's damage is dealt over time while her chain is up, so if she cacels her E early she loses some of the damage. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On August 02 2012 05:41 Sufficiency wrote: I think LeBlanc should be allowed to cancel her E early to active the snare. In exchange, the second half of E's damage is dealt over time while her chain is up, so if she cacels her E early she loses some of the damage. Eh... she probably already has them silenced anyway when her E is ticking on someone (since landing E triggers silence) so they can't flash away, can't use any dash move... if you can't walk with a slowed target to maintain the leash, i think you shouldn't really be benefitting from it. | ||
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Lmui
Canada6213 Posts
On August 02 2012 05:14 Hyren wrote: So I hear people talk about building MR when laning against Leblanc, but how (and when) are you supposed to itemize it? Straight up buy a Negatron after a couple Doran's? Use Viktor as an example if the question is too broad. I personally like to go a single dorans -> negatron -> abyssal. If you're running MR runes, building health might be more useful than MR. Haunting guise, catalyst -> RoA, and other build paths are also good. | ||
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Lightswarm
Canada966 Posts
On August 02 2012 06:43 Lmui wrote: I personally like to go a single dorans -> negatron -> abyssal. If you're running MR runes, building health might be more useful than MR. Haunting guise, catalyst -> RoA, and other build paths are also good. The thing with leblanc is that she has essentially one job in teamfights: taking out the ad carry. Even if you buy a negatron, it will still be hard to prevent leblanc from pushing the lane and roaming around ganking. I actually played quite a few games against galio where i simply ignored him completely | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On August 02 2012 07:08 Lightswarm wrote: The thing with leblanc is that she has essentially one job in teamfights: taking out the ad carry. Even if you buy a negatron, it will still be hard to prevent leblanc from pushing the lane and roaming around ganking. I actually played quite a few games against galio where i simply ignored him completely Going RoA is definitely in the WRONG direction. Haunting Guise is OK, but due to LeBlanc's power curve, is not the most well-rounded option (HG favours early game, LB's early game is strong enough as it is). | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On August 02 2012 07:33 sob3k wrote: LB doesn't need anything to be more playable, she is a very specific champion niche and is fucking great at it with a really large skillcap. She is strong. I think her skillcap is pretty low. Her main damage tool is point-and-click, her W is short-ranged AOE with large radius and short travel time (i.e. never misses); the only thing "hard" about LeBlanc in terms of her kit is her E. Beside that, you just need to know how much damage you can do. Her WQRE combo is very safe to execute because of W's return. You also need to know how to last hit, of course. But last hitting with LeBlanc is really, really easy because of her missile speed. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On August 02 2012 07:37 Sufficiency wrote: I think her skillcap is pretty low. Her main damage tool is point-and-click, her W is short-ranged AOE with large radius and short travel time (i.e. never misses); the only thing "hard" about LeBlanc in terms of her kit is her E. Beside that, you just need to know how much damage you can do. Her WQRE combo is very safe to execute because of W's return. You also need to know how to last hit, of course. But last hitting with LeBlanc is really, really easy because of her missile speed. No way, especially lategame she has huge options in combo order and targeting, and huge options in juking and positioning with the changes to her dash/revert while targeting her snares and staying in range to proc them and the sigils in team fights. Just because nobody bothers to get really really good with her doesn't mean it isn't there. Thats like saying lee sin is just a safe QQEEWW. WQRE or QRWE isn't even her max damage combo later. | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
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Lightswarm
Canada966 Posts
On August 02 2012 08:32 Tooplark wrote: Labonk has a huge skillcap. You really do have to think about what order you use everything in, while keeping track of your blinks, positioning close enough to hit with E but far enough to be safe, and so on. Midgame, it's most efficient to (Q) RQWE or whatever, but late game, especially once you start getting cdr, you can do things like QE, QW, E RQ for maximum silence/root duration. Also, E has a higher AP ratio than Q. theres rly only 1 reliable combo for lb: dfg/w to get in range/q/r. for e to do more damage than q, you need like over 500 ap. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On August 02 2012 08:32 Tooplark wrote: Labonk has a huge skillcap. You really do have to think about what order you use everything in, while keeping track of your blinks, positioning close enough to hit with E but far enough to be safe, and so on. Midgame, it's most efficient to (Q) RQWE or whatever, but late game, especially once you start getting cdr, you can do things like QE, QW, E RQ for maximum silence/root duration. Also, E has a higher AP ratio than Q. The problem with those is that rarely you get the opportunity to survive that long to finish the combo. This is also the problem with her E - it does have higher ratio, but the fact that half of the damage is delayed makes it impossible to use in a teamfight/larger skirmishes - as soon as you appear you WILL be focused and utterly destroyed - it doesn't help even the slightest that LeBlanc has one of the lowest HP/HP growth out of all conventional mid laners. Furthermore, her range is really poor beside her W. To demand a LeBlanc to use QRQWE or QEQWERQ is simply unrealistic for LeBlanc. No, LeBlanc does not have a huge skillcap, because the majority of her damage source comes from her Q, which is point-and-click. Yes, I do play her frequently and I used to consider her as one of my "mains" before I got much better at the game. And no, CDR is not useful on LeBlanc. On August 02 2012 09:27 Lightswarm wrote: theres rly only 1 reliable combo for lb: dfg/w to get in range/q/r. for e to do more damage than q, you need like over 500 ap. It doesn't matter. Even if E does more damage than Q at 100 AP it's still the last skill to max.... because half of the damage is delayed. | ||
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Lightswarm
Canada966 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On August 02 2012 10:06 Lightswarm wrote: I dont think we are disagreeing with the ap needed for e; even if you have that many items, its still unreliable to even hit. the thing that makes lb really scary is that she requires only to be alive to do the damage necessary. even if you are at super low life, ur combo takes at most 1 second to pull off. it is all down to you sneaking around to snipe the ad carry for the team That's the main problem (imo) with LeBlanc and her teamfight. Her E is collision based. It's not possible to proc her E against a half-competent support because the support will always be in front of the AD carry.... unless the AD carry grossly misplays and facechecks the brushes you are in or something. | ||
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