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Shen
Wow i wrote a lot more than I was intending. Yay for breaks between class
Shen is the best tank in League of Legends (which is funny because he's more of a support hero than anything O_o). BUT WHAT ABOUT RAMMUS, you say, smugly. Rammus is literally banned in 100% of games and therefore he is not an actual champ in League of Legends. No other tank can bring to the table what shen does, so you'll see him banned a lot too. But when he's not...
Shen isn't particularly fun or exciting to play. If you've never played him, he plays like a slightly beefier Xin Zhao. If you've never played Xin Zhao, he plays like reading a book - boring and methodical but important (to the team).
Please only use this guide if you're using the Surgeon Shen skin. Surgeon Shen is the best skin in the game hands down (okay nurse akali is p great too) and I don't want to share my wealth of shen knowledge with you if you're going to be using shit like yellow jacket shen. weak.
Summoner Spells: Due to his extreme mobility, shen has a few options for summoner spells. Ghost, Flash, Teleport, Clairvoyance, Ignite, Cleanse, and Exhaust are all viable options on him. I prefer Ghost/Teleport to further exaggerate his ability to get around the map, but any combination of the above spells is great.
Masteries: I've set up shen with several different mastery sets as well.
Your basic setup is going to be x/21/x, with 2 points in dodge instead of 3 in strength of spirit, and an extra point in harden skin. If you choose 9/21/0, grab 3 crit strikes and one AP, 4 cooldown, and then either ignite mastery/15% spell pen. If you choose 0/21/9, ghost mastery, good hands, exp bonus, greed.
An alternate setup is 0/9/21 (or 3/6/21). Use this if you've got a true tank in your comp and you need your summoner spells (teleport especially) to always be available. Unfortunately the utility tree is a cruel mistress to ninjas, so you're going to have to invest in a lot of things you absolutely don't need to get up to 15% CDR on summoners 
In the jungle and in some cases in lane, you can also run 0/15/15 or 0/14/16. That's going to give you movespeed but hurt you defensively AND not give you the summoners cooldown. You're a brave, cocky soul if you take this route.
Runes: Movespeed/HP quints are a tossup. HP quints with defensive mastery and doran's shield will put you in lane at level 1 with 790 HP which is absolutely nothing to scoff at and can win you lanes early. *edit: HP runes and vet scars masteries are being nerfed this patch, these numbers will change* Movespeed quints are fking awesome tho, so don't discount those.
Flat magic pen reds
Armor/Level Yellows
Mres/Level Blues
(again, alternately you can opt for flat yellows and blues for an even stronger earlygame, but you're gimping yourself late if you do this)
Skill Order: Q first is 99% of the time. If you open with taunt, you're going to get bullied in lane, but if you think it will get you or your carry first blood in a teamfight, be my guest. Getting W before level 10 isn't really necessary UNLESS you know you'll be laning against someone with a slow projectile, a D-O-T, or Ignite. If so, grab one level of W at level 2 and then ignore it until later.
Your primary skill order is going to be:
QEQEQRQEQ-> R>E>W unless you have a specific need for W.
Item Build: Your core build is mercs and a single sunfire cape. How you get there is up to you, and being able to read how your game is going. A general guideline is
Doran's Shield -> 1-2 Hearts of Gold OR Aegis -> Merc Treads -> Giant's Belt -> Sunfire -> ->Randuins -> Magic Resist as necessary.
Doran's Shield + health pot is non-negotiable. It's hands down the best item shen can open with.
Health Pendant will get you bullied in lane by ranged champs and you don't need to rush Force of Nature.
Cloth armor + 5pots works in the jungle but don't bring that weak sauce to lane. For a tank, Shen has hp problems and you don't want to highlight that.
Okay so he has hp problems, open Health Gem right? Wrong. Never open health gem, are you crazy? Do you think vorpal blades give you enough regen that you don't need any passive regen? You realize you can't use strength of spirit so you're gimped in that regard right? Gosh you're dumb.
LONG SWORD? FOR WHAT? JUST NO.
Okay so you grabbed doran's shield. Good job. How is your farm doing?
Did you get first blood? Port home and grab boots and another health pot.
Did you give first blood? Wow you suck, grab some more health pots and enjoy the tongue lashing from your teammates.
Are you being zoned? Investing in boots first might not be a great idea. If zoned by a magic champ, grab null mantle. If zoned by some ranged carries, consider cloth armor or health gem.
Are you zoning someone and deferring farm to your lane partner? Don't port back, keep zoning.
Are you being a dick and taking all the farm? First trip back gets you boots and a heart of gold, and a ward for your lane.
Are you taking ALL the farm?? First trip back gets you giant's belt and mercs and a ward.
Did you get first blood, take ALL the farm, AND zone your opponent in a 1v1 top lane? Wow you probably don't need this guide because you just got an 11 minute sunfire (not at all unreasonable, I've gotten it at 9 minutes before).
Basically what I'm getting at here is that in an average game, you'll be shooting for 1-2 hearts of gold as soon as you can. This might be a port-home at 10 minutes to buy one HoG and another cloth armor, and then finishing your second one and grabbing boots at 13 minutes. In a game that's going REALLY well, skip the hearts of gold and straight rush Sunfire cape. If you can get sunfire cape before any towers are down, you're in GREAT shape. You'll want to grab the giant's belt first no matter what though. If you're sitting at 1000 gold and considering the chainmail, the answer is no. Get the HoG first instead and get your funfire later.
When to finish your mercs (also a non-negotiable item) is also a variable. If your opponents are magic heavy but not stun-heavy, consider just the null mantle and finish the boots later. If they're stun heavy, finish mercs after first HoG. If they have a lot of dps champs, you can finish your mercs after your sunfire.
What about Leviathan? Well honestly that's up to you. If you're in that weird place where you're dominating the other team but not getting a lot of farm, you can consider it. But leviathan is a weird stack item because you generally get it on tanks... and tanks are supposed to die for their teammates... and shen's not even a great tank so you'll be eating the bullet a lot more often than Rammus/Amumu would. On the other hand, a decent shen can rack up assists like it's his job (it is). I personally would put that 1200-something gold towards a giant's belt in all cases instead.
When it comes to the magic defense, things get tricky with shen. He has no mana so you're wasting a large chunk of money on the mana crystal and catalyst, BUT the spell shield is so amazingly good it might be worth it. Force of nature is a no-brainer late-game if you can afford it. Negatron first, kids. Quicksilver is fine if you're cheap and they've got stuns. Spirit Visage is an emergency item if you're behind and need a stat boost immediately and you can't invest in a *true* defensive item; also consider it if you've got healer(s).
Why not frozen mallet? Every other guide says get frozen mallet. Because Frozen Mallet is insanely expensive for giving you pure HP and a shitty passive. Why not atmas? Because you're getting your armor from real defensive items, you have no use for crit, and upping your AD by 30-40 isn't really going to make a difference on shen. Why not warmogs? Actually, warmogs might be decent on him now that it's changed. The only problem is it *must* come after your sunfire and so you might be getting it late. Getting it late makes it hard to charge, which makes it inefficient.
Playstyle:
early game
Shen's a BEAST in lane (with doran's shield), and also a potential jungler. I don't recommend putting him in the jungle because he's not very fast, he doesn't have a *terribly* good level 4 gank, and he's a BEAST in lane. One thing to note is that even though Shen jungle is slow, it's also very safe. You'll stay at high HP due to vorpal and escaping ganks is easy with taunt. So if jungling is what you want to do, get cloth + 5 pots, start blue, spam vorpal and don't waste your ki strikes on enemies that a normal hit would kill. QWQEQR, you don't need madreds so you're starting HoG into boots into HoG stack. I think the earliest shen can get dragon is level 5 but it's sooooo slow it's not even worth trying and you have to itemize for it and shit so fuck that. You can dash into the pit and smite steal it if you're a boss though.
Lane shen has several options:
(1) Solo top. Shen's a fine solo because of his hardiness with Doran's shield and his burst from Ki Strike combined with his vorpal harass. In a 1v2 situation, use vorpal to grab last hits safely, tower hug and try to taunt your opponents into the tower to take hits. In a 1v1 situation, abuse vorpal's insanely low CD to harass the enemy champ out of lane. Use Ki strike only on the enemy champ and last hit normally with auto attacks. You'll lose to Nidalee and Kennen, you'll beat vladimir pretty hard, you can beat mordekaiser by being extremely aggressive early and using vorpal/ki strike before he even reaches creeps at level 1 to zone him. Level 5 is when vorpal really starts to shine, so up your aggressiveness at that level. When you need health, burn your Ki strike, vorpal a high hp creep (siege creep mb?) and auto attack it once. Auto attacking twice doesn't give you double heal, it resets your first heal. With proper timing you can get two heals in from one vorpal, but don't start the second attack until your first one has healed (there's a buff indicator above your skills for it). Don't Vorpal and then Ki strike if you need to heal, as a ki strike that kills the enemy won't proc the heal, and if you have a heal started and then ki strike a vorpal'd enemy, you'll actually cancel your heal which is BULLSHIT. The downside of solo shen is that even though you'll hit level 6 early which is GOOD, you can't *use* your ult unless the jungler covers for you because you'll lose your tower if you do that. In this scenario it's entirely possible that you'll get a < 13 minute sunfire depending on if it was a harass-fest or mutual farming.
(2) Babysitter bottom. If you're laning with tristana or tryndamere, or any champ that needs farm more direly than you do, you must defer creep kills to them. Shen's got enough burst with vorpal and Ki to steal every last hit, but your lanemate will hate you if you do that and they need the items more than you do. Instead, abuse bushes and vorpal to harass the squishier opponent and keep them from farming. It's acceptable to use vorpal to snag a creep every now and then if you know your partner can't reach it, and yes do use your auto attack to last hit when given the opportunity but just don't be that asshole that gimps their own ashe by taking every last hit. You'll be buying the wards in this lane. When you hit 6 it's acceptable to ult to save someone because your lane partner can cover the lane. In this scenario you won't have enough farm for early sunfire, so you'll be grabbing HoG's instead.
(3) Babysittee bottom. If you're with a champ that needs farm even less than you do (janna, sona, taric, mundo, cho'gath, gragas, etc) then you DO get to be the dick that grabs *every* last hit with vorpal and ki strike. Make sure your partner knows this, though. Don't slack on harassing, Shen's burst combined with another stun can net you several kills in lane against a lot of champs. Swain, cho, taric, sion, leblanc are all gonna set you up nicely for kills. Tower diving is totally fine if you've got your summoners up, you're hardy enough to take a few hits to get a kill. Tower diving to your death, in order to secure first blood, is encouraged. The gold differential is more than worth the exp you'll lose while dead.
Mid game
You've got your mercs and two HoG's or a sunfire and maybe a negatron, you've demolished your lane, and there are a couple towers down around the map. People are starting to group up to grab team objectives like dragon, buffs, and mini-pushes. This is your time to shine.
(1) You've got your sunfire and you were smart enough to take ghost/teleport. You have absolute map dominance right now. Run to an open lane and get EVERY creep and push the tower. If they send 2 people to stop you and there's another open lane, teleport there and farm that instead. If they send one person to stop you, KILL THEM. Shen's at his strongest right now. If they overcommit you can chase them down with taunt and ghost. Is your team pushing bot with 4 people? Great, push top with your sunfire, and force the other team to send someone to stop you. Once they do that, use your ult to shield your carry in the teamfight that's now breaking out bottom and suddenly it's a 5v4.
(2) You don't have your sunfire yet. Roam with with someone else looking for loners to gank. Check their jungle, ward their buffs, use your mobility to get great positioning on them. If you see your carry farming a lane and he's too dumb to notice that 3 people are MIA, get ready to shield him for the inevitable gank. You're in support mode, and you're going to get 15 assists in the next 15 minutes. In a teamfight, you want to make a beeline for their carry and try to chase them off, but also keep an eye on your carry. If that means coming back and taunting people to get them off your tristana, do that. If it means keeping their twitch busy and focused on you and then ulting to your carry, do that. You can chase really well, but don't waste time chasing nidalee, leblanc, galio, etc. Once those guys are out of your reach they're going to stay out of your reach so don't bother. If you've got an aegis, you're providing huge stats to your team for free, make sure they take advantage of that
(3) You're REALLY dominating. Good! You need to end the game quickly and use your advantage to get baron/dragon/towers/buffs/win teamfights as soon as possible. This is because shen really hates the...
Late game
Ewww, the game dragged out and now you have to deal with the heavy hitters that finally have their good items. Suddenly your ult, which seemed imba 6 levels ago, isn't doing jack shit, because 700 damage absorption is next to nothing when your carry is being focused by 5 people. And what's worse, shen himself has poor stat growth, so your early game hardiness doesn't translate well. If YOU get focused, unless you're insanely farmed, you're gonna drop like a fly. You don't have the damage mitigation of galio and rammus and mordekaiser (your shield is okay and does scale with armor/mres its just not spammable enough) or the regen of mundo or the ability to bum rush a carry like olaf. If your team doesn't have a true hard tank, you better pray for the other team to make a mistake, cause you just can't compete with garen and galio and cho'gath at this stage of the game.
Consider rounding off your item build with thornmail, randuins, Abyssal scepter, guardian angel (meh), starks, or whatever your team needs. You're a support hero now.
Always let the carry get the last hit for a kill if you can. You want to end 1-5-25 if at all possible, not 10-5-10.
Good luck.
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Energy regen/level seals look pretty good for Shen on paper; at 5 energy regen every half second, Shen normally regenerates 50 energy every 5 seconds, at level 18 with 9 of those seals you bring that up to roughly 60 energy every 5 seconds, so that's 20% more energy generation.
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I've never tried energy runes on shen because I've literally never had an energy problem with him. Vorpal uses just enough energy that it will be completely recharged by the time vorpal is ready again, taunt refunds energy if you hit someone with it, and i rarely use shield so \o/
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How does SoS works on non mana champs?
(3) Babysittee - did you mean BabysitteD?
Great guide overall, I wanted to play shen last days.
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United States37500 Posts
Yellow Energy regen is primarily for Kennen and Akali to a degree. Like guitar said, there's almost never an Energy deficiency with Shen. Not enough to take Yellow Energy runes over Armor or HP.
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On November 09 2010 02:48 Lunek wrote:
How does SoS works on non mana champs?
(3) Babysittee - did you mean BabysitteD?
Great guide overall, I wanted to play shen last days.
iirc, SoS doesn't work at all on non-mana champs, as they have no mana. Nor does expanded mind, in case you were wondering.
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"(again, alternately you can opt for flat yellows and blues for an even stronger lategame, but you're *really* gimping yourself late if you do this)"
even stronger lategame -> even stronger earlygame
Good guide=D
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Real pros run 9/0/21 for the 15% spell pen, 9% CDR, movespeed and summoner spell bonuses.
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United States37500 Posts
Laoching runs 9 0 21 with MS Quints. He will cut anyone who gets in his way.
numba wan Shen imo.
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I run HP/level yellows because that's why Laoching used to do.
also, jungle shen's early gank (he can gank earlier than level 4, you can set up a level 2 or level 3 gank with the right setup) is extremely strong. of course it's not rammus or Pantheon level, but I think it's stronger than Amumu's because of how damn hard Ki Strike hits and the fact that he's considerably higher HP when he gets red than Amumu is. Taunt -> red buff ki strike -> vorpal is really nice in terms of burst and shadow dash is hard to escape from. Also, from what I've seen, the best Shens rush Randuin's rather than going for a sunfire (something like Hog -> Aegis -> Randuins). Though I personally get a sunfire too, I think it's worth noting that you never see Laoching with a sunfire and thus if you're playing shen seriously, you probably want to experiment with playing without a sunfire.
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I think it's worth noting that you never see Laoching with a sunfire
whaaaaaaaa?
see this is why Neo needs to get all of his secrets for us, how am I supposed to know these things
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On November 09 2010 03:02 Mogwai wrote:
I run HP/level yellows because that's why Laoching used to do.
also, jungle shen's early gank (he can gank earlier than level 4, you can set up a level 2 or level 3 gank with the right setup) is extremely strong. of course it's not rammus or Pantheon level, but I think it's stronger than Amumu's because of how damn hard Ki Strike hits and the fact that he's considerably higher HP when he gets red than Amumu is. Taunt -> red buff ki strike -> vorpal is really nice in terms of burst and shadow dash is hard to escape from. Also, from what I've seen, the best Shens rush Randuin's rather than going for a sunfire (something like Hog -> Aegis -> Randuins). Though I personally get a sunfire too, I think it's worth noting that you never see Laoching with a sunfire and thus if you're playing shen seriously, you probably want to experiment with playing without a sunfire.
maybe i just suck at ganking \o/
also i've never understood randuin rush. the passive isn't *that* great, the active is really good but much better lategame when you've got more MR/armor, and the gold income from HoG is crucial if you're not farming. sunfire is just so crucial to his farming ability i can't see playing without it. i mean i have; in those games i just shadow the carry and gank a lot, but you never get good items without those mid-game creep kills and you're never a tower-push threat imo
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Laoching rushes Omen because he knows CDR is the best stat in the game imoimoimo
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United States37500 Posts
All good junglers (ballz and his TW/Kor breathren) all go Omen's first as their item. Omen is just too fucking good. CDR (sup faster Taunt), HP Regen (something Sunfire doesn't provide) and an ungodly active for ganking.
Sunfire on Shen is a luxury tbh. It helps more with solving Shen's incredibly shitting farming than anything else. Omen >>> Sunfire.
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right, and I agree with you and it's why I also build a sunfire. I play shen as a solo pusher -> ult into teamfights usually and without a sunfire, you are just sooooooo slow at pushing, but I think the reason why Laoching does it is that having Shen go off and get all that solo farm ultimately doesn't end up being THAT useful in a really high level game + it sometimes forces you to use your ult at a less than opportune moment just to get to the teamfight. *shrugs* I can mostly just speculate since I haven't actually played with Laoching very much, but that's why I think he shuns a sunfire build and opts for optimal babysitting items ASAP (Randuin's is a great babysit-the-carry item).
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On November 09 2010 03:14 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 03:02 Mogwai wrote:
I run HP/level yellows because that's why Laoching used to do.
also, jungle shen's early gank (he can gank earlier than level 4, you can set up a level 2 or level 3 gank with the right setup) is extremely strong. of course it's not rammus or Pantheon level, but I think it's stronger than Amumu's because of how damn hard Ki Strike hits and the fact that he's considerably higher HP when he gets red than Amumu is. Taunt -> red buff ki strike -> vorpal is really nice in terms of burst and shadow dash is hard to escape from. Also, from what I've seen, the best Shens rush Randuin's rather than going for a sunfire (something like Hog -> Aegis -> Randuins). Though I personally get a sunfire too, I think it's worth noting that you never see Laoching with a sunfire and thus if you're playing shen seriously, you probably want to experiment with playing without a sunfire. maybe i just suck at ganking \o/ also i've never understood randuin rush. the passive isn't *that* great, the active is really good but much better lategame when you've got more MR/armor, and the gold income from HoG is crucial if you're not farming. sunfire is just so crucial to his farming ability i can't see playing without it. i mean i have; in those games i just shadow the carry and gank a lot, but you never get good items without those mid-game creep kills and you're never a tower-push threat imo
If you have high APM and can mostly just stare at the minimap, you can farm very quickly just using Vorpal/Autoattack/Ki Strike on the right creeps, probably significantly faster than Sunfire when just AFK farming.
Sunfire really does end up feeling like a luxury item when you start building Randuin's first. It gives you so much shit whereas Sunfire only gives armor, health, and AFK farming potential. The other nice thing is you can build Randuin's piece by piece whereas sometimes you end up having to b after a gank with 950-1000 gold and still can't get Giant's Belt. Huge annoyance.
The other thing about Randuin's is that it capitalizes on your early game shenanigans. Sunfire can help you propel yourself to a lategame where you are potentially the most farmed champ (and can stay ahead of the damage curve with more resistances and health), but Randuin's will solidly give you and your carry kills early on.
For teamfights, it's often good to overextend, have them initiate you (blowing one of their important CC's), popping Randuin's and dashing out. This causes usually at least one person on their team to overextend, causes them to initiate a bad target (a target who isn't a huge threat), and allows you to possibly ult someone after you escape for even more turnaround. Sunfire just does some AoE damage (and pretty pitiful damage).
Not saying Sunfire is bad (it fucking rocks when you get it), but I can see the justification for taking Randuin's first.
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United States37500 Posts
This is probably one of the most constructive Champion discussion threads so far. Nice job guitar. More of this, less bravery memes.
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About the guide itself: I agree with a lot of the points raised but it´s absolutely awful for people that go "oh Shen let´s see what he is about" There isn´t even a link to the official page.
Regarding a few points: Itemisation is literally Dorans, appropriate boots -> defenses according to the enemy Team.
And while Sunfires aren´t exaclty BAD Shen favours Randuins since the active allows him to control the fight better and his taunt has great synergy with the passive.
Jungling can be sped up if you kill the red wolf before the golem spawns. Basically never have 200 energy. And yeah, don´t waste Ki-strikes.
While the ult later on fails as Gank- and even Damageprevention it IS a global Teleport. Feel free to "waste" it to go from point A to point B lategame even if no one is hitting your target.
In terms of ganking: Only use dash when they run away. It´s tempting to use it right away but if you catch them from behind they will have to walk past you twice that way.
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United States37500 Posts
Granted guitar could elaborate a bit more on the Skills since Shen's Playstyle section is rather mundane, it isn't a bad guide. None of my guides have links to the official page either because it's reasonable to assume that players reading these guides have an understanding of what the skills are and what they do. Just not how to use them most effectively.
guitar: elaborate on Skills a bit more, primarily Vorpal/Ki Strike on farming and lane harassing (also dependent on your lane partner) but like Unentschieden said, you really need to elaborate more on the ulti. It's global and the #1 reason why Shen can turn a fight.
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Well Vorpal and Ki-strike while laning is mostly based on the question: can I trade hits/wear them down? The energy system and the heal over time on Vorpal Blade means that Shen "wins" most hittrades. There are certainly stronger laners however in which case you are better off going for distance and lasthitting with VB. They can´t towerdive you anway (Taunt!) so just hang back.
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Sorry if this turns out to be a noob question.
But usually in every game with Shen I open with just Ruby Crystal since I feel Doran's Shield does not do much after early game, and I can be one step closer to either HoG or Aegis which seem efficient to me. And I play rather a defensive style with Shen but I still annoy the hell of the enemy champs when I see the opportunity.
I understand that buying Ruby Crystal as an opening item can really gimp on Shen if I want to be aggressive, but is Doran's Shield that much better than Ruby Crystal for early game?
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United States47024 Posts
On November 09 2010 08:27 DragonSharp wrote:
Sorry if this turns out to be a noob question.
But usually in every game with Shen I open with just ruby crystal since I feel doran's shield does not do much after early game, and I can be one step closer to either HoG or Aegis which seem efficient to me. And I play rather a defensive style with Shen but I still annoy the hell of the enemy champs when I see the opportunity.
I understand that buying ruby crystal as an opening item can really gimp on Shen if I want to be aggressive, but is doran's shield that much better than ruby crystal for early game?
The problem with Ruby Crystal is that while it starts you off with more HP, you don't have enough to start with a potion, and you don't get Doran's Shield's HP regeneration, so if you get in a bad scuffle at low levels and get to low HP, its harder to stay in lane and regenerate it, particularly since you don't have the luxury of Strength of Spirit like mana users do.
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On November 09 2010 08:35 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 08:27 DragonSharp wrote:
Sorry if this turns out to be a noob question.
But usually in every game with Shen I open with just ruby crystal since I feel doran's shield does not do much after early game, and I can be one step closer to either HoG or Aegis which seem efficient to me. And I play rather a defensive style with Shen but I still annoy the hell of the enemy champs when I see the opportunity.
I understand that buying ruby crystal as an opening item can really gimp on Shen if I want to be aggressive, but is doran's shield that much better than ruby crystal for early game? The problem with Ruby Crystal is that while it starts you off with more HP, you don't have enough to start with a potion, and you don't get Doran's Shield's HP regeneration, so if you get in a bad scuffle at low levels and get to low HP, its harder to stay in lane and regenerate it, particularly since you don't have the luxury of Strength of Spirit like mana users do.
I pretty much agree with those several issues with Ruby Crystal. But unless what if you were doing well or decent enough in lane with it? I think it would be better for getting the next item fast, but I would be wrong if I'm facing someone like Morde or Vlad. Then I would consider buying doran's shield.
So basically what I'm seeing right now it is better off to be safe in lane with doran's shield, right?
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United States37500 Posts
It's not better safe with Doran's Shield. It's Ruby Crystal is so bad at laning. You have zero form of HP regen. If you even attempt to last hit, you will take some sort of harassment hits or pokes since you are melee. Considering Shen almost always lanes bottom, the chances of you facing an enemy champion with some kind of poke spell is very high. You're not going to be able to farm at all.
Doran's shield provides you with HP, armor and HP regen. Not to mention you can get a hp pot out of it too.
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Out of curiosity, how is opening Regrowth?
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On November 09 2010 09:06 Southlight wrote:
Out of curiosity, how is opening Regrowth?
The problem with opening Regrowth, IMO, is that if you go 9/0/21 (no Veteran's Scars), take movement quints (no HP quints) and also take an initial item with no HP on it, you're going to show up on your lane with like 440 HP, which is the base health of the champion plus 9 HP from HP/level seals... that's starting to feel a little too squishy ^^;
Doran's Shield is a good enough item you'll probably want to keep it for most of the game, anyway- especially considering its shitty resale value (50% compared to 70% for non-Doran's items).
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United States37500 Posts
Uh, opposite spectrum of taking Ruby Crystal? Instead of HP and no HP Regen, now you have HP Regen but no HP, huk.
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I dunno, when an Ashe showed up 1v1 against me on Kassadin with Regrowth I first laughed, then turned to dismay as he completely shrugged off all of my harass. I guess the dynamics are different in a 2v2 lane because of the heightened burst, but...
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On November 09 2010 09:30 Southlight wrote:
I dunno, when an Ashe showed up 1v1 against me on Kassadin with Regrowth I first laughed, then turned to dismay as he completely shrugged off all of my harass. I guess the dynamics are different in a 2v2 lane because of the heightened burst, but...
I really like Regrowth first on some champions, Ashe among them. It's just, I feel a little safer vs. burst when I at least have some HP quints to fall back on... :p
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On November 09 2010 08:27 DragonSharp wrote:
Sorry if this turns out to be a noob question.
But usually in every game with Shen I open with just Ruby Crystal since I feel Doran's Shield does not do much after early game, and I can be one step closer to either HoG or Aegis which seem efficient to me. And I play rather a defensive style with Shen but I still annoy the hell of the enemy champs when I see the opportunity.
I understand that buying Ruby Crystal as an opening item can really gimp on Shen if I want to be aggressive, but is Doran's Shield that much better than Ruby Crystal for early game?
Doran's Shield + health pot is non-negotiable. It's hands down the best item shen can open with.
Okay so he has hp problems, open Health Gem right? Wrong. Never open health gem, are you crazy? Do you think vorpal blades give you enough regen that you don't need any passive regen? You realize you can't use strength of spirit so you're gimped in that regard right? Gosh you're dumb.
Can you get away with it? Yes, against terrible lanes that can't harass or burst... like soraka rammus lane. Yes, if you're leagues ahead of your opponents (which is impossible to guess, when you buy the items). Yes, if you don't plan on getting last hits at all.
Is it worth it? Even in the situations where you won't DIE because of ruby gem, doran's shield will let you threaten the opponents instead of playing passively. Is saving 300 gold really worth it? No.
On November 09 2010 09:06 Southlight wrote:
Out of curiosity, how is opening Regrowth?
Unless you have a REALLY specific reason to do so (some sort of MS hungry anti-mage build or a superfast warmog... both of which sound like terrible ideas), you will direly miss the 120 hp and 8 armor that doran's gives you. Shen's got decent regen from vorpal, combined with decent regen from doran's and he's set on regen. Better to have that buffer 120 HP than always be at full health but unable to engage because burst destroys you. Especially considering how much armor pen ranged champs run, the 8 from Doran's is amazing at level 1.
also i'll pretty up the guide and add pics and skills and shit tomorrow or something, ty for feedback and approval errybawdy
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I'm pretty much got the message after neo nail it down, so no need to piggyback it.  I was just confused why Ruby Crystal wasn't optional as an opening item since I have been doing it for the past few months.
Aside from that, your guide is pretty helpful, so keep up the good work. 
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I think this idea of starting off ruby crystal was made when shen was relased. It was a time, when leviatan used to give 2 stacks for assists.
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Thanks a bunch for this guide... decided to try out Shen and managed to win a 4v5 first game.
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Dorans items are about 2/3rd more Gold efficient per stat than about anything else. If you had unlimited inventory space no one would buy anything else.
Being "behind" for the next big item isn´t a real issue since Dorans help you land SO much better.
Also there are no key items on Shen that he NEEDS and that improve his performance significantly (like Banshees on Nunu or Rod of Ages on Singed).
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I just tried the sunfireless approach in an IH and it made a big difference I think. The much faster Aegis and Randuins were there to turn the tide in several teamfights. I ended up getting a few funfires as 5th/6th items because I couldn't think of anything else to buy.
Right now I'm running 9/0/21, tele/ghost, mpen/mresplvl/mresplvl/ms (I don't have hp yellows).
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I understand the reasons for opening with D-shield, but I just never felt the need for it. True I'm not a high level player and maybe I will change my mind in the future, but at least for now I prefer a ruby. I'll get a shield if I'm gonna 1v2. It's not hard to last hit with vorpal, ki strike close minions and you do have a shield (which I get an early point on and a second time at lvl 8). You have 850 hp so you can still be aggressive, skill shots can be dodged and most non skill shot pokes I can think of are relatively close range, so you can taunt and with the help of your lane mate come out ahead (maybe even kill them), shen is just that strong early game. And as bad of a heal as vorpal blade is it's still a heal + if you have teleport which I do I just see no reason for D-shield.
Idk. I am trying to think of a lane that would have that much of scary poke power and not be super squishy, so they don't get completely zoned out.
Anyway like I said I'm not high level, hope you don't mind my 2 cents. :D
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On November 13 2010 21:21 sashkata wrote:
I understand the reasons for opening with D-shield, but I just never felt the need for it. True I'm not a high level player and maybe I will change my mind in the future, but at least for now I prefer a ruby. I'll get a shield if I'm gonna 1v2. It's not hard to last hit with vorpal, ki strike close minions and you do have a shield (which I get an early point on and a second time at lvl 8). You have 850 hp so you can still be aggressive, skill shots can be dodged and most non skill shot pokes I can think of are relatively close range, so you can taunt and with the help of your lane mate come out ahead (maybe even kill them), shen is just that strong early game. And as bad of a heal as vorpal blade is it's still a heal + if you have teleport which I do I just see no reason for D-shield.
Idk. I am trying to think of a lane that would have that much of scary poke power and not be super squishy, so they don't get completely zoned out.
Anyway like I said I'm not high level, hope you don't mind my 2 cents. :D
Close range pokes are quite a problem. Most of them have greater range than vorpal, and they certainly have greater range than Shen's attack. Certainly, you can run up, vorpal, shield, whack a creep, but in all probability you'll take more than the 40/80 you recover. Ranged heroes can just autoattack that away, heroes with stuns are even worse, and heroes with nukes will shove you out as well. Furthermore, if you're playing against people who you CAN boss around in lane with Ruby, if you take Doran's Shield you will boss them around SO MUCH HARDER. When Shen does his dash-vorpal-kistrike combo he IS going to take damage, and if you get early points in shield he's not going to do as much damage/won't taunt as long. Furthermore, the energy system setup makes taking multiple skills much less useful. The standard D-shield max-taunt-and-vorpal is standard because it's better against tough lanes AND easy ones.
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Without dshield, shen is going to get his butt raped in a 2v2 lane. Going ruby crystal means that your opponent can trade hits with you and win the war of attrition, because they have a pot to fall back on while you have nothing. If you decide not to fight back, then you just got zoned.
My shen item build: Boots, heart of gold, boots 2, then banshees if they're magic heavy, randuins otherwise. After that, Warmogs, and then Atmas.
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Can I get some info on Jungle Shen? I know it's not ideal... but more often than not i find that my team has no jungler, so I figure it would be a useful thing to learn.
Looking for:
-Runes
-Masteries
-Starting item, and subsequent items after B
-Jungling route
Thanks.
Edit: got info from chat (thanks guys).
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Shen has like 600 base HP.... regrowth is fine.
I usually start with cloth, health pots, and ward now
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After i bit of thinking... i've come up with a refined build...
![[image loading]](http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/9803/sunfire.jpg)
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On November 18 2010 21:42 Dgiese wrote:After i bit of thinking... i've come up with a refined build...
Best build on any champ imho, lol
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against a team with 4 squishies, HOW THE FUCK DOES A TRYND WITH THOSE ITEMS GET ONLY 9 KILLS?
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United States37500 Posts
Probably getting the fuck owned out of him by blind, two stuns and a taunt?
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I was also exhausting him each fight... but yeah, they were pretty bad. It was a troll game though, so w/e. It was him and Sona vs Eve and I bottom lane... and they were bad... like really bad.
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Elementz Shen spec from the TL/CLG Newegg game:
as/ep5plvl/flat mres/ flat hp
1/21/8
exhaust/ghost
as opposed to my usual mostly-lifted-from-laoching spec:
mpen/mresplvl/mresplvl/ms
9/0/21
tele/ghost
I like the use of as marks. Thinking about it, they'll really help my tele-turret sniping, so I'm going to swap them in. 8.5 mpen doesn't do a whole lot anyways.
The energy yellows, I think are a good idea too. I'm going to try using them again. Shen's most important job is to taunt. If you don't have the energy for it, you're useless. If you miss a taunt (it's my internet's fault I swear :[ ), you're tapped for the next 5-10 seconds. Energy runes give some breathing room.
The rest of his spec will make him significantly tankier than me in the early game (and it really worked when DD disconnected and Shen had to 1v2 for a while) but I just don't like it. I'm addicted to movespeed and 21 utility. Obv Elementz is a better player than me, but I'm sticking to copying Laoching.
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On November 17 2010 22:58 Juicyfruit wrote:
Shen has like 600 base HP.... regrowth is fine.
I usually start with cloth, health pots, and ward now
Shen's base HP is really weak if you go for a lot of movespeed (9/0/21 means no Veteran's Scars, movement quints means no flat HP quints) and in that case you should definitely start with Doran's Shield.
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Protip: If your dash hits an enemy ward, you'll get the taunt sound. I honestly didn't know this until last game.
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On November 25 2010 09:00 myopia wrote:
Protip: If your dash hits an enemy ward, you'll get the taunt sound. I honestly didn't know this until last game.
Same for Gragas body slam.
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Posting this here due to feedback:
Hi guys,
Completely new to the LoL subforum, I did play SC2 for a long time as pretty reasonably active on the forums. Anyways, I started playing LoL (yay) and I picked Shen (tank) in the team of our friends. We aren't too good, but I'm always looking to carry them even harder.
I start off with Doran's shield + health pot (following the Shen guide on the subforum). Afterwards, it tells me to rush for Heart of Gold, then another Heart of Gold, and then mercury's threads.
Some questions:
- Why Heart of Gold? The gold/regen is pretty weak, and the item itself isn't spectacular, right? Why not go for Phage instead?
- If HoG is a viable choice, should I get 1 or 2 before boots? On what factors does this depend on?
- When should I sell my Doran's shield? And when should I sell my HoG?
- After the patch, when Doran's + health pot won't be possible due to price increase, will Doran's shield still be the best?
- Why would I go for Merc Threads, instead of Ninja Tabi? Isn't the 12% Dodge with the dodge talent really, really good?
(- How does the Dodge mechanic work?)
Late should should be merc threads/Sunfire Cape/Aegis/x/x/x? What's the dream goal, and what is a reasonable goal? (Like 12K gold in total, what'd you get?)
Also, I am a bit confused about the taunt ability; there was something about wards and Shadow Dash, but I wasn't able to follow the discussion.
I did not see any threads like this, I did read the instruction post (with a full page of trolling on the first page). If this is inappropiate, sorry in advance. Otherwise, thanks for helping out, TeamLiquid rocks (:
My ID: Plain Skill, on the European server. I have Skype if anybody wants to watch me play or whatever.
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i've mained shen for like 3 weeks, so obviously i'm your go-to guy.
HoG is boss, it gives you most of what you need in lane and the gold/5 helps f you're babysitting someone and don't really want to lasthit. Phage is bad.
Sell your doran's when you don't have room for your next item, or if you really need some wards.
Shen should be fine with doran's still, his vorpal should give him enough regen.
Merc treads are the best boots in game, you might want tabi when you're up against 4-5 physicals with just one or two stuns, but that won't really ever happen.
I usually skipped sunfire in favour of a fast randuins. my endgame build would look somewhat like this: Merc, Randuins, Banshees and/or Sash, and some more tanky items tepending on their team comp (Frozen heart, that regen mr item, thornmail, etc.)
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boubou literally all your questions are answered in the OP
except the question about the change in doran's shield price meaning no HP pot. the answer is doran's shield is still *the* item to open with, and no one else is going to have the pots either so even though you're gimped, everyone else is too.
the rule for HoG's according to Utahime, one of the better players that (used to) play here, is stack them on a champ that (1)won't be farming a lot [like shen as a babysitter] or (2)on a champ that roams a lot. you get as many as you can by 13 minutes into the game. it has something to do with how long it takes for the HoG to "pay for itself." the way i play shen allows for farming so i won't get more than 1 ever, and i usually don't get it til after my sunfire and aegis. aegis too good for early game fights.
mercs are auto-buy in 95% of games. you need to be able to get through the slows and CC thrown at you to get to the enemy carry, dodge is a bad stat because it's unreliable and nimbleness is really not that big of a deal
iirc the way dodge works is whatever %dodge you see, that's how frequently you'll dodge attacks.
in a balanced comp, endgame items will look like
Randuins/Mercs/Sunfire/Aegis/FoN
also, strange no one caught this (i'm fixing it now) but in the masteries section i said take Strength of Spirit. what was i thinking -_-
edit: derp, no i didn't. wow am i tired.
also fixing minor grammatical errors and adding a pic now and updating a few things due to slight changes in ze meta game
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Thanks a bunch guys, I went 8/1/25 last game  Doran's shield + health pot really, really owns Ruby Chrystal, Merc>Ninja Tabi and Phage is pretty meh indeed.
Thanks for all the feedback. Also, gtrs, sorry for asking what had been 'answered' but seeing as how a patch flies out every two weeks, in two months everything could've been quite different.
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shen is already so watered down compared to when he was released and compared to his old ult and vorpal and stuff i highly doubt they will nerf shen for a while
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#1 shen build is still
wriggles -> zerker greaves -> GRB -> Triforce -> BC -> Ghostblade/IE/Defensive Item(if you're a big pussy)
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Loci's spellvamp shen still #1, sorry smash.
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Laopro(Laoching) Shen
9/0/21
dont fucking "what?" me,its what laoching ran
ms quints
magic pen reds
health/lvl yellows
mr/lvl blues
doran shield->boot->hog
doesnt fucking matter if the other team has 5 ap champs this is ur core never fucking waiver from it
after this u can consider
Aegies: most common follow up,makes sense too,best item in game and u port to people so yea make this unless ur janna or taric is making it,if u have janna or taric ask them to make it though
Sunfire: real fucking good item on shen,makes u a real fucking threat in teamfights,shen w/o sunfire and shen with sunfire is worlds apart,get this if there isn't HEAVY amounts of magic dmg being done
FoN: also real good item,the ms+ is so fucking sweet,and the mr is really good too
Randuin: decent item but fucking sunfire so much better,get this after sunfire if their carry super farmed and can deeps u down
*upgrading ur boot to mercs:get it before u start any of the big items,but u should be aiming to get hog first though
*the health belt,even when ur building randuin or aegies first,get this cuz it's just an amazingly good item on shen
R>Q>E>W
exhaust/ghost
Teachings of Laopro
1.ssibal noob get all the cs at botlane,shen needs farm than pretty much any bot laner
2.have 6 eyes(look at mini map u noob),always shift ur screen when u see 2 dots clashing,its really important to ult early as shen
3.ur taunt range is fucking imba,a good shen knows the maximum distance of his taunt,experiment and try to go for taunts that are just out of range,THEY'RE FUCKING NOT OUT OF RANGE U JUST DONT KNOW THE RANGE OF THE TAUNTS
4. 4:1 split push is a shen's bread and butter mid game strat,always push a sidelane when u can,it pressures the lane and forces the other team to come for u and ur team can force teamfight mid 4 v 5 or something,real fuck pro shen move.if done right its uncounterable
5. exhaust enemy carry,ult to ur carry,taunt people,vopal noobs,this is ur cookie cutter be at 4 places at once shen teamfight move
laopro had 6 eyes and was the best shen ever here's how he played him,quit ur job and dedicate ur life to playing shen and u might oneday become #2
good mapawareness and quick ult is 80% of playing a good shen
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Loco, why wouldn't I go Flash/Exhaust instead of Ghost/Exhaust?
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Ghost/Exhaust allows you to do numerous things that you can't do with Flash like saving your ally with E, chasing an enemy, etc., etc. etc. Flash has such a long cooldown that is often better to take Ghost instead.
Plus, your E is basically like Flash, so no need to take it.
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Ghost is better in teamfights because it let's Shen switch faster between attack and defense. You can just dash into their carry and then ghost and chase him around with autoattacks and vorpals, which draws attention back to you, and also have the ability to return to defending your own teammates when the situation changes. Ghost lasts imba long time.
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I've been maining Shen recently (gonna have to change that once i hit ranked, Shen is banned a lot.), and playing a lot of 3v3s.
Note: Before you read on, I am only level 12, and have no qualifications for saying my build is the greatest, but so far it works for me.
I normally go Flash/Ingite when playing Shen, its especially useful for chasing down people running at low health, but it can also be used to escape. I have 1/11/0 masteries, taking 1 in crit strike, 3 each in resistance and hardiness, 4 in evasion and 1 in nimbleness.
What I have been doing is at the start buying D shield, getting vorpal and 3man ganking the bottom bush. If I can get good vorpals off, my team can usually pick up FB/2 kills, and then I move to solo top. I harrass with vorpal against anyone laning against me (if it is someting Shen fails against like Kennen, I will switch to bot lane and have a partner take top). If they push to my tower, i shadow dash+ignite+vorpal, and if they are low health i flash over and finish them off.
If my partners don't want it/don't go for it, I will get red buff at level 7 and try to take down the bot lane opponent tower.
This is where things get really wierd sounding, but like I said it works for me.
When i return to base to heal/buy, I get a sunfire cape ASAP, followed by boots of swiftness and then omen/warmogs depending on the opponent comp.
Mid/late game I basically protect my teammates and assist them with dragon/whatever with vorpal and dancing around the entrances to the jungle.
I have about 2.5 wins for every loss i've used this build, but that can usually be blamed on an extremely newbish teammate (going 0-9-0) or extreme lag on my part.
*prepares for incoming heavy critisim*
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Why not level Taunt if you're going to lvl 1 fight at that brush? Just wait before leveling your skill. If they come, get E, if they don't come, get Q.
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On April 19 2011 06:54 HazMat wrote:
Why not level Taunt if you're going to lvl 1 fight at that brush? Just wait before leveling your skill. If they come, get E, if they don't come, get Q.
I have actually considered taunt first, but the problem is A. If i get there and they are already there (and my teammates are slow/somewhere else), i probably will be in too much of a panic to be able to click on the little learn skill boxes, and if I don't level up to 2 by the time i get to top lane, i won't have vorpal for last hitting until i level up. Sometimes I need that right away if there is another melee champ (eg Alistar) in my lane and I can't get near the creeps without getting hit by them.
Edit: Is the range of shadow dash longer than the range of vorpal?
I will eventually try that though, probably when I get lagless play available (thursday morning, friday-monday)
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You can lvl clicking ctrl + e
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Protip: use control+[letter] to quickly assign skill points
Either way you should be opening e, shen will always make it to two in lanes. (you should be maxing e first, too)
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On April 19 2011 07:07 TL Blazeraid wrote:
Protip: use control+[letter] to quickly assign skill points
Either way you should be opening e, shen will always make it to two in lanes. (you should be maxing e first, too)
What? Maxing E first? ...
I've read in multiple guides (not only here, but on the LoL forums too) where it says the skill priority is R>Q>W=E. What is so good about E other than the taunt? I can understand it being good in luring into the turret/ganking, but still...
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Q>E. Don't lvl W until you have to.
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Leveling E increases taunt time, and w is pretty lackluster.
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W isn't that bad
leveling E gives you so little per level
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W sucks. 50 damage shield for 45 energy at level 1? Worthless.
You should max Q depending on how long laning goes. The extra damage on vorpal is really godlike.
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W is terrible. don't get it unless you're against a slow lock-on projectile in lane like kassadin's Q etc.
E only adds like 0.2-0.3 per level but remember that's multiplied per target hit, so you're essentially adding a whole second+ per level of "taunt time." i think energy usage goes down per level as well, which is really important in fights.
i never take E at level 1 even in the event of a gank. Q has high damage and low cooldown and shen is fast. you'll do more damage by getting Q and getting in multiple vorpals than you will by getting a 0.8s taunt. you don't want to taunt into their whole team either cause it's not like you're tanked out at level 1. you shouldn't even be attempting a level 1 fight if shen is your only form of cc.
boots of swiftness is a joke on shen, why would you ever not take mercs? don't do something for no reason. it might be working for you now but mercs will work even better, trust me.
flash is a joke on shen, especially considering taunt's extremely low cooldown. ignite is an option but you'd be much better off taking ghost/exhaust/teleport/clairvoyance
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i guess i should update this now that doran's costs more and singed is the #1 tank again. kinda no need though, as i haven't seen shen NOT banned in like 50 straight games imo
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On April 19 2011 07:33 gtrsrs wrote:
flash is a joke on shen, especially considering taunt's extremely low cooldown. ignite is an option but you'd be much better off taking ghost/exhaust/teleport/clairvoyance
Well, on TT which i play mainly (if i play 5v5, then thats completely different), teleport is not as effective considering how close everything is. You can nearly walk to your farthest turret bottom lane in the amount of time teleport takes. Yeah it may be useful once or twice, but meh. I have considered exaust, along with the mastery helping it, clairvoyance can save me against a bush gank pretty easily, and ghost could work i guess as well.
I guess I will experiment with each of these and see which suits my playstyle the best (and my playstyle on galio, but thats another story alltogether.)
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oh my guide isn't for twisted treeline. shen plays differently there (as do all champs). don't use this for TT, my bad. i would definitely take ghost 100% of the time on TT though.
also i have a galio guide on TL that's pretty straightforward. also not for TT.
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On April 19 2011 07:53 gtrsrs wrote:
oh my guide isn't for twisted treeline. shen plays differently there (as do all champs). don't use this for TT, my bad. i would definitely take ghost 100% of the time on TT though.
also i have a galio guide on TL that's pretty straightforward. also not for TT.
Heh, yeah. Once i get really good at the game, maybe then I can start writing guides for TT for each char and adding them on to the already awesome guides here on TL.
I really like TT though, much faster pace, much easier to gank/be ganked, and not too many champs you need to keep track of.
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New shen build:
Doran shield
Spirit Visage
Merc treads
Giants belt
Now you can: Finish sunfire cape or get your Wit's End
Atma's
You can throw Aegis in there if no one else on your team can get it. Abyssal also a great choice vs casters and helps out your team's casters.
9/0/21
Magic pen reds
HP/lvl yellows
Magic resist blues
Movespeed quints
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ran it past guitar, he says he loves my new build.
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i said no such thing
that is the worst possible build i could ever imagine in my head
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I was actually in vent when this exchange between Ruken and gtrsrs occurred, and I can say with the credibility of Barack Obama that Ruken is telling the truth and gtrsrs is lying.
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On April 19 2011 07:55 57 Corvette wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 07:53 gtrsrs wrote:
oh my guide isn't for twisted treeline. shen plays differently there (as do all champs). don't use this for TT, my bad. i would definitely take ghost 100% of the time on TT though.
also i have a galio guide on TL that's pretty straightforward. also not for TT. Heh, yeah. Once i get really good at the game, maybe then I can start writing guides for TT for each char and adding them on to the already awesome guides here on TL. I really like TT though, much faster pace, much easier to gank/be ganked, and not too many champs you need to keep track of.
You don't need to be good to write a guide for a character. You just have to be open to ideas. 75% of the value in writing a guide is getting everybody else's opinion out there. Just find the appropriate champion thread and start writin'!
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On April 20 2011 10:33 Tooplark wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 07:55 57 Corvette wrote:On April 19 2011 07:53 gtrsrs wrote:
oh my guide isn't for twisted treeline. shen plays differently there (as do all champs). don't use this for TT, my bad. i would definitely take ghost 100% of the time on TT though.
also i have a galio guide on TL that's pretty straightforward. also not for TT. Heh, yeah. Once i get really good at the game, maybe then I can start writing guides for TT for each char and adding them on to the already awesome guides here on TL. I really like TT though, much faster pace, much easier to gank/be ganked, and not too many champs you need to keep track of. You don't need to be good to write a guide for a character. You just have to be open to ideas. 75% of the value in writing a guide is getting everybody else's opinion out there. Just find the appropriate champion thread and start writin'!
Oh, Well in that case I will need to do some observations friday/weekend so I can write full up on monday. Ofc I won't have things like full masteries and rune pages for sure, but I can probably write strategy.
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On April 20 2011 08:52 Ruken wrote:
New shen build:
Doran shield
Spirit Visage
Merc treads
Giants belt
Now you can: Finish sunfire cape or get your Wit's End
Atma's
You can throw Aegis in there if no one else on your team can get it. Abyssal also a great choice vs casters and helps out your team's casters.
9/0/21
Magic pen reds
HP/lvl yellows
Magic resist blues
Movespeed quints
saw this on hsgg stream lol
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I haven't run 9/0/21 on Shen since the dshield nerfs, now with HoG out it's suicide imo. If you want to rule your lane you need 21 defensive. Not that I don't wish I could get away with utility, you just can't these days. Can't believe how awesome most items in this game used to be.
I've been meaning to try bloodrazor though haha
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Shen ult so useless for shielding dmg... Just gud now for tping to make fights in your favor in terms of people
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United States37500 Posts
On May 01 2011 10:55 0123456789 wrote:
Shen ult so useless for shielding dmg... Just gud now for tping to make fights in your favor in terms of people
That's how it should be...
Taunt should be enough to save your ally. HP Shield + Taunt has always been imba.
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Is the item build up to date?
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On June 08 2011 11:14 R04R wrote:
Is the item build up to date?
Item build is not up to date. The nerf hit him fairly hard, and recently teams have been picking tanky dps champs in place of straight up tanks. I haven't seen a Shen around in a long time.
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i build literally the exact same items on shen. he's just not very good since the nerf. but i wouldn't change the build
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Yeah I still go Rylai, Abyssal too
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i dunno about rylais, but i agree that abyssal is only one of the most awesome items you could possibly get on shen. ever.
edit: gunblade is pretty neato too
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What's the consensus on Atmogs Shen since the nerf?
I'm sure it's not an original idea, but I've been testing this:
Ghost/Teleport
9/21/0
Red -Armor Pen
Blue -MR/lvl
Yellow -HP/lvl
Quint -HP/lvl
R > Q > E > W
Start: Regrowth Pendant + Pot
Core: MercTreads, Sunfire, Warmog's, Atma's. Get Atma's last, for the rest mix and match components as situation demands.
Lategame Options: Stark's Fervor, Thornmail, Abyssal Scepter, Frozen Mallet.
Noticably missing: Randuin's Omen, Significant MR, Gold/10 items.
The basic idea is making Ki Strike a frightening passive again. Since you're getting so much bonus health, Atma's seems in order.
I've been feeling really cruddy lategame with Shen's old build (besides taunt I felt useless in teamfights), and this seems to fix that for me. The lack of significant MR and build-up items (hog, warden's) is a bit of a concern, tho. And I miss Randuin's active. :/
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they do count as bonus health. get a HoG ASAP. get Force of Nature when you need MR. you probably don't need sunfire if you're going atmog's anyway. just go HoG -> Mog's -> Atma's + FoN as necessary, picking up lategame stuff like Frozen Mallet, Triforce, Omen as necessary. this build can be alright and turns him into a reasonably effective tanky DPS, but it can't realistically be farmed up by Shen in a typical game.
you also failed to mention the most noticeably missing item, which is Aegis.
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Since the nerfs, it is damn near impossible to jungle shen unless you recall after every camp -.-
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jungle shen has always been a subpar option
shen (used to be) an in-your-face tank. he would taunt your whole team and for 2 seconds absorb all their shots, then chase down the carry and stick to her like butter on a hot bun. to do this effectively, you needed to be equally as farmed as the enemy carry or very close, otherwise you just get melted. in my guide i point out that late-game you're getting melted no matter what.
in order to acquire this level of farm, you need a solo lane or you need to be hogging the bot lane farm. the jungle simply will never let you get this level of farm. additionally, now that you can't stack HoG's, and kage's pick and avarice blade are awful on shen, coupled with shen only benefitting from half of a philo stone, i highly recommend not jungling with him
although, to be fair, he might be a decent jungler in arranged 5s since tanks are kind of seeing their way out, and he's got a great CC. you wouldn't expect him to really *tank* anything but his effective 10 seconds of CC might be of use before he melts. he'd be similar to nunu in that he's more of a utility tank than a true tank, and doesn't get as much farm to do his job. he's a very effective warder/counterwarder thanks to taunt's ability to jump walls, so in arranged 5s he might not be your WORST option, but he's clearly not your best for a jungler
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United States37500 Posts
Only viable way I see Shen being played now is if he's with Alistar or Blitz and they just roll over bottom lane. Shen doesn't deserve to be babysat bot, he isn't going to scale well with gold anyways. It's better if he shares with another tanky dps and just net kills and zones enemy bottom.
And never jungle with Shen. I already think jungle Xin is subpar. Shen's worse than Xin. zz
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Been playing Shen since he's free this week.. talk about unappreciated. Everyone blames you for their crappy positioning and engaging when they shouldn't be (1v4? no problem, Shen will save me!) because you have a taunt that can hit multiple people so "SHEN WHY WEREN'T YOU THERE!?! YOU SUCK SHEN" is all you get., even when you have the highest kill/assists tally, it is clearly your fault. Then they make stupid comments like "he doesn't even have any tank items" when I have Merc Treads, Aegis, Heart of Gold, and am working on Sunfire, and claim they play ranked Shen.
Good grief. I enjoy playing him even if he's weak, but the garbage I get while doing so is unbelievable.
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On August 29 2011 03:06 zer0das wrote:
Been playing Shen since he's free this week.. talk about unappreciated. Everyone blames you for their crappy positioning and engaging when they shouldn't be (1v4? no problem, Shen will save me!) because you have a taunt that can hit multiple people so "SHEN WHY WEREN'T YOU THERE!?! YOU SUCK SHEN" is all you get., even when you have the highest kill/assists tally, it is clearly your fault. Then they make stupid comments like "he doesn't even have any tank items" when I have Merc Treads, Aegis, Heart of Gold, and am working on Sunfire, and claim they play ranked Shen.
Good grief. I enjoy playing him even if he's weak, but the garbage I get while doing so is unbelievable.
Shen is extreeeeemely reliant on playing with at least one friend. Because he's guaranteed to be eating tons of damage with his taunt (if you hit of course) you really need to coordination that playing with friends provides to take advantage of it.
I haven't played Shen since a couple of normals to see how he was after so many levels. Hated it. Compared to other tanks, he had almost no damage output, his heal on his Q was barely noticeable, and his taunt was really only good as an escape mechanism in lane. Thankfully, he's being looked at by RIOT for minor buffs/tweaks.
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Lol people have always gotten shit for playing Shen. Just grief them if you get annoyed and never save them.
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Im an old time shen main who just came back to the game a couple weeks ago... ive played him once since then and was very disappointed
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Buffs to Shen sept 15th '11:
Shen
General: Base damage increased to 57.875 from 56.875
General: Damage per level increased to 3.375 from 3.075
General: Base armor increased to 23 from 22
Vorpal Blade: Base damage increased to 70/115/140/175/210 from 50/90/130/170/210
Vorpal Blade: Heal increased to 18/26/34/42/50 from 10/20/30/40/50 (over 3 seconds)
Vorpal Blade: Damage ability power ratio increased to 0.75 from 0.65
Vorpal Blade: Heal amount no longer increases with ability power
Feint ability power ratio increased to 0.75 from 0.6
Shadow Dash taunt duration increased to 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 seconds from 0.8/1.1/1.4/1.7/2 seconds
Stand United: Ability power ratio increased to 1.5 from 1.0
Stand United: Energy cost reduced to 0 from 50
Anyone got any thoughts on this? Seems like is early game is a bit stronger... but i dunno if it's enough for him to be able to hang with the big boys of top lane.
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they stated they wanted him to be a jungler. I think he'll be a good jungler with these changes.
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yeah he's definitely not going to have his laning power of old, but he will be better in lane. i'm gonna focus on some jungle routes today and see what i can come up with :D
also, if his gameplay has changed noticeably, i will be creating a new shen thread and requesting this one closed :3 so any last comments you have comment away!
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How does heart of gold + WotA sound as a standard build for the new Shen?
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it makes me want to shoot myself in the face. don't build AP on shen, it's still bad for the same reasons.
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BUT SMASH, IF I GET 1000000000000 AP I CAN Q SOME1 FOR HALF THEIR HP IF THEY GOTS NOT MRES!!!!
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I think he played one game and went 3-5 vs. HSGG's 15-0 Cho.
Shen's probably pretty good right now, but I just don't see why you would ever build AP on him when you can just buy tank/tanky deeps items on him.
EDIT: I love Loci and he's a fantastic player, but it's delusional to think that you should be building AP on Shen.
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But WotA is an imba item
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Only DPS shen I have had sucess with is trinity force shen, or trinity/rylais if you are super fed. Tanky DPS with trinity-->tank works if you abuse his ultimate well to make it worth him being a shitty champ.
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Trinity Shen is legitimately strong IMO. I mean, it's a, when-super-fed or lategame item on him, but it's very effective at making his damage output considerably better. I could also see Force of Atmog's working on him because of his Passive.
I mean, honestly, as a long time Hybrid DPS Shen troller, they nerfed his AP's sustained effectiveness by removing the ratio on the heal from vorpal. And he's not a burster, so who cares that his burst shielding/damaging is slightly increased?
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I dunno everyone got a hard on for gunblade when trinity force is everything a melee needs to do damage especially with something as spammable as shen q.
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Not Gunblade, WotA!
I mean, if you are getting solo-farm from the start then you should just get a fast sunfire to abuse that amazing DPS for early game, or fast warmogs.
I guess I'd rather play Shen more as a support hero so that he can 100% concentrate on harassing the enemy team with his vorpal shit. WotA just happens to have the best aura at the moment in my opinion because there's maybe like TWO champions that wouldn't benefit heavily from 25% spell vamp.
You won't able to dive balls deep into the enemy team for their squishies though, but I imagine you'd be a very versatile babysitter in teamfights.
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how do you harass with a near-melee range spell (speaking post-lane phase ofc, you're not going to have a wota on Shen and still be laning)
actually I'll cross post my thoughts from yesterday
On September 14 2011 12:33 myopia wrote:
Shen buffs are a joke IMO, he's still completely ignorable late game. Riot changing his AP ratios is farcical - where are all these AP items Shen is supposed to be buying, while still maintaining his energy based tank role? Rylais, Abyssal... that's it? (Don't forget Q is his only method of proccing Rylai's) oh man they actually REMOVED his heal AP ratio? seriously, Riot?
Shen's kit has been problematic since they so thoroughly nerfed randuin's and sunfire. He doesn't have any items to call his own.
his skills are still too watered down (or totally useless in W's case), and he doesn't scale well. Tanks like Amumu/Cow/Cho still make Shen look bad. Really bad.
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On September 15 2011 04:56 Mogwai wrote:
I think he played one game and went 3-5 vs. HSGG's 15-0 Cho.
Shen's probably pretty good right now, but I just don't see why you would ever build AP on him when you can just buy tank/tanky deeps items on him.
EDIT: I love Loci and he's a fantastic player, but it's delusional to think that you should be building AP on Shen.
rylais seems so legit on paper though
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rylais means shen can slow 1 person for 1.5 seconds, every 3 seconds. compare that to any number of AP champs who can proc it with all 4 (5 with brand's passive I think?) of their skills.
frozen mallet is a better choice for shen, ap ratios or not
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imo with the buffs last patch there is no reason to not play him as a top lane bruiser ->late game tank. I mean he has good sustain from his Q+energy system he has a shield and easy to last hit+ ganking top lane when there is a taunt which can both be used in allied ganks and to escape enemy ganks is just like a free flash basically.
I suggest to thee the following build:
Boots or Shield opening
HoG
Revolver for more sustain
giants belt (to increase dat passive early on)
finish Bunglade
build Sunfire or Warmogs depening on how well you farm (preferably warmogs)
Force of Nature just because your shen and HP is all you need (and bunglades)
another Gunblade for that even better shield, ult and heal from Q allowing you to in theory stay in battle longer (imagne that shen's Q is like Vlad's and the longer you stay in a fight and lock on to a target the longer you live and become a machine gun)
Finish Randuin's at some point
and ofc finish Merc treads aswell (unless you wanne do the super AP build and get Moonflair, and can get tabi or cdr boots)
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I like getting WotA so that you can use your q to last hit as well as get life back
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I just picked him up again to see how his buffs play out. Played him top against udyr and some other opponents I dont remember. Didn't have any formidable opponents so far though. His early game strength feels alot better again. In the couple games I played him I had no trouble zoneing others out of the lane. The additional damage and sustain on Q is quite alot considering I could straight up bully, outsustain an udyr (he didnt play well though so iam not sure what it is worth but it just felt strong.)
I even built stuff that is not recommended here. Got rilays and sunfire cape. I actually think both items are decent but I'am very uncertain of how to build him yet.
The major downside on shen for me is his very slow farm and pushing speed and the general lack of AoE damage, so paying that additional 800 gold felt right. AP items like rilays are at least not bad considering his low cooldowns and ratios. He certainly does'nt permaslow but the lack of spammable CC can be solved by it.
What I have thought the most about is what to build as MR. Since shen naturally autoattacks alot I think wit's end might be quite strong. With vorpal blade he heals for about the same amount as warwick does on higher levels and during the early game it is even more if you level it fast. So for the same reasoning as warwick gets wit's end as his core MR item I would think that it also works on shen.
As for wota/gunblade: I'am not a huge fan of the idea but never tried it. I didnt have much problem with sustain early on. Mb it can work as a occasional sixth or fifth item? Just not a fan of (almost) purely offensive items on bruisers, especially if they dont have any kind of burst.
The Idea I like the most I read in the past few (after buff) posts here is trinity force, since he now has an insanely high base damage and damage/lvl gain. So building around trinity could make alot of sense. But then the main question I have is: Would you then still run magpen marks? I guess not?
force of atmogs sounds kinda meh on him, since he has no AD scalings and the champions that love to build it are mainly ones with at least decent AD ratios and/or steroids. If anything then mb atmogs+wits end to make use of the additional AD you get from atmas.
Just wanted to mention that shen feels much stronger now and I highly recommend trying him out if you like him.
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i kinda like revolver for laning, but i would not build more ap than that 1 item.
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On September 19 2011 09:26 LaNague wrote:
i kinda like revolver for laning, but i would not build more ap than that 1 item.
I cannot say that it is bad or anything because i refuse to try it. But my thoughts are: His sustain is insanely buffed now so I allways have enough with just dorans shield. He also requires to get really close and personal, so I rather buy a belt instead of revolver.
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I've been messing around with Jungle Shen a bit, clears really safely, almost always at full hp.
Mpen red, armour yellows, scaling mr blues, armour or hp quints.
QWQE
Wraiths Wolves Blue Golems Red Gank.
His ganks aren't very good, but if you can get your taunt off it gives your lane partner plenty of time to murder them.
Cloth+5pots > Mercs or Tabi > Aegis > Sunfire > Splitpush and situational defensive items.
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On September 19 2011 22:28 57 Corvette wrote:
I've been messing around with Jungle Shen a bit, clears really safely, almost always at full hp.
Mpen red, armour yellows, scaling mr blues, armour or hp quints.
QWQE
Wraiths Wolves Blue Golems Red Gank.
His ganks aren't very good, but if you can get your taunt off it gives your lane partner plenty of time to murder them.
Cloth+5pots > Mercs or Tabi > Aegis > Sunfire > Splitpush and situational defensive items.
O_o
his ganks are extremely strong
vorpal + ki strike is high burst, taunt is long duration stun that garen-tees that you'll apply red
only problem is that he's so slow that you don't have the level advantage when ganking. and without attack speed runes there's no way you're clearing the jungle in any reasonable time
i'm still working on jungle shen but now my feelings are he's best in bot lane
i'm thinking shen + talon tbh
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jungle shen doesnt need W just go R>Q>E>W. his sustain is enough now. I never tried starting blue so far but iam pretty sure you can start there with long sword+pot. he is similar to warwick in the jungle, just that you have better early gank potential and a bit less sustain.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Shen's just too weak still.
When you're up against Yorick, Udyr, Irelia, Lee Sin, hell even Renekton WW GP whatever, by level 6 you are not the scary force in lane. Q damage is still too low. Having a spammable 70-100 damage at lvl 1 is pretty nice, but any of those champs, particularily the first four, can simply wait a couple levels before trading damage with you and either a) stay out of short Q range, since you can't force them out of xp range with it, or b) eat Qs and not give a fuck because while they cant trade damage with you they can out-sustain your "burst" unless you do nothing but chuck Q every cooldown and never cs. I really don't think Shen should be considered in the top lane bruiser role. Whoever said they bullied Udyr out of lane, I'd like to know just what kind of retard was commanding Udyr that game haha
Bot lane situation is a little better. His slight increase in burst is nice, but not enough to put him back to the level of nightmare harass & burst and free farm for his carry like days of yore. Shen bot lane is powerful, but then....
lategame comes and you're a 1.5s taunt bot. peel one or two guys off your carry and hope to god your team wins the fight for you, cuz your 250 damage Q ain't gonna do shit, and nobody's getting any significant heal from its proc.
I played a few games running both, in top lane i tried standard tank builds as well as a silly rylai > abyssal > deathcap > GA build (rofl), and he is outclassed by basically everyone. In bot lane he is still very strong, but if your carry cant win the game by himself based on your babysitting performance, you are going to find yourself pretty worthless lategame. Still.
The problem with Shen is simply that everyone who has a comparable role does it much better. From true hp/damage soak tanks like Rammus, who has a better taunt, better positioning abilities, and is beefier, to tanky guys like Lee Sin, Udyr, Gragas etc, who in comparison with Shen all do oodles of damage lategame in conjunction with their hardiness and control kits. Shen is neither the beefiest, nor the scariest, nor the most useful. Just kinda garbage tier.
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is it stupid to buy at least razor on jungle shen? hes so slow without it.
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"waiting out levels" means getting zoned which allways got me enough to compensate for his supportish ult. Never lost a lane top so far with him but still wating for a decent opponent.
jungle shen lost me a couple games (most of them) cuz shen needs crazy farm which he can only get top.
Also i highly doubt ire can trade with shen. basicly its the same deal with akali vs ire: you just zone her out of lane with Q harass. Dont forget he gets more sustain from Q than WW gets from his passive (on early levels).
edit: yes you need razors. upgrade to wriggles if you plan on warding.
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Is there any legitimacy to AP shen?
Something like Deathcap -> Abyssal/Zhonya's?
Or Rylai's instead of deathcap.
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AP shen runs out of energy to taunt after first one because you'll need to use q to damage and w to live. But that ult shield D:
Tank shen doesn't do anything except taunt (excellent skill) and free tp.
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I'd skip Rylai's and go straight into Abyssal and Zhonya's. AP Shen is there to Shadow Dash and make opponents rage because Feint saves you from everything (even at rank 1). Rylai's wouldn't be a bad option later, you just don't get much out of the slow.
I don't really know how legit it is, but it would work a lot better if Shen's Energy costs weren't so crazy.
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Shen's best non-ult ability is Shadow Dash. Shadow Dash has no AP Ratio. When using Shadow Dash, Shen only really has the ability to use one of his other 2 abilities.
Conclusion: AP Shen is garbage, build real items on him.
If you're jungling, get wriggles unless you can get a stupid fast sunfire cape. Without wriggle's, you just have no dragon presence and you jungle sooooo slowly after a couple passes.
I personally like HoG + Warmog's -> Atma's with like, Mallet/Aegis/Sunfire/Trinity Force as options with FoN whenever you need a huge chunk of MRes. Shen's a pretty meh character, but he can split push like a boss and is decent at low levels, so I just try to get an item advantage and then get to the point where I can 1v1 people due to my item advantage and then just split push all game.
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I like to jungle Shen when mid and bot are good DPSers against dragon (cass and kogmaw or someone who opens wriggles). Wriggle is always tempting when I jungle shen but I really really want to ditch wriggles for a fast phage (for trinity) because it makes his ganks and counterganks so retardedly strong. For jungling I just do a fast HoG and then whatever.
He's very slow at clearing the jungle (relative to other common junglers; techncially speed is decent enough not to be a troll jungler) but at least he's almost always full HP and after level 6 is always 'around' so he can afford to be a little slow.
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On October 06 2011 00:59 Mogwai wrote:
Shen's best non-ult ability is Shadow Dash. Shadow Dash has no AP Ratio. When using Shadow Dash, Shen only really has the ability to use one of his other 2 abilities.
Conclusion: AP Shen is garbage, build real items on him.
If you're jungling, get wriggles unless you can get a stupid fast sunfire cape. Without wriggle's, you just have no dragon presence and you jungle sooooo slowly after a couple passes.
I personally like HoG + Warmog's -> Atma's with like, Mallet/Aegis/Sunfire/Trinity Force as options with FoN whenever you need a huge chunk of MRes. Shen's a pretty meh character, but he can split push like a boss and is decent at low levels, so I just try to get an item advantage and then get to the point where I can 1v1 people due to my item advantage and then just split push all game.
Takes soooo much farm. Took me forever to farm just Warmog's and Atmas even though I was soloing top and consistently taking cs. Ult should provide some gold but no kill/assists came out of it other than the first time.
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Well, the plus side of it on shen is that even with just warmog's you're quite capable of trucking people because of how it works out with your passive. So it's not like on most characters where you get warmog's and have this giant lapse in your offensive power while you build an atma's. I dunno, you don't really need to do anything in a specific order on shen, best to like, just go HoG and then play it by ear I guess. Warmog's if you can farm it up fast enough, otherwise phage/aegis/sunfire to give you immediate power and then later transition to the mog's or even just say fuck that and get mallet instead.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
zero reason to jungle shen right now when rammus exists, dudes a monster. He basically has a global presence with Q l0l
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dude, rammus is so underrated, I don't get why people don't just jammus and cash in on free wins.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
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you have to see his ganks from so far away to be able to escape without a summoner, uhg, so gay.
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United States37500 Posts
On October 06 2011 02:30 Mogwai wrote:
dude, rammus is so underrated, I don't get why people don't just jammus and cash in on free wins.
Honver says sup. He knows what's real.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On October 06 2011 02:04 Mogwai wrote:
Well, the plus side of it on shen is that even with just warmog's you're quite capable of trucking people because of how it works out with your passive. So it's not like on most characters where you get warmog's and have this giant lapse in your offensive power while you build an atma's. I dunno, you don't really need to do anything in a specific order on shen, best to like, just go HoG and then play it by ear I guess. Warmog's if you can farm it up fast enough, otherwise phage/aegis/sunfire to give you immediate power and then later transition to the mog's or even just say fuck that and get mallet instead.
you end up not capable of trucking people at all, actually. with a fully charged warmog you're looking at like an extra what, 110 damage on ki strike? lame. shen's burst with no AP in lategame is around 400 damage. that's just dreadful.
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and with like 700 AP, it's around 800-900, whoop de fucking do, still useless. atmog's lets you do consistent damage and use your shadow dash on every CD.
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Expected buffs in Viktor patch:
Vorpal Blade
Energy cost changed to 60 from 70/65/60/55/50
Healing effect reduced to 10/16/22/28/34 from 18/26/34/42/50
Healing effect now also heals for 2% of attacker's maximum health per hit
Shen gets the heal if he last hits with Vorpal Blade
Single target damaging spells can now also trigger Vorpal Blade instead of just attacks
Feint
Feint now grants 20/25/30/35/40 Armor while it's active
Feint duration increased to 3 from 2.5
Cost increased to 50 from 45
Shadow Dash
Cooldown changed to 11-9 from 10
Energy cost reduced to 100 from 120-100
Taunt Duration increased to 1/1.3/1.6/1.9/2.2 from 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2
Restores 40 Energy per champion affected, from 50 Energy if you affect one
Ki Strike
Bonus Damage from Health increased to 12% from 8%
Cooldown is now reduced by 0.5 seconds for minion hits in addition to 2 seconds for champion hits
Is no one else really excited about these buffs? Nowadays I'm able to get 1 or 2 kills top but fall off really hard. Going tanky makes u pretty ignorable and building damage makes you rally squishy. But with these buffs I can see a new Shen-era.
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Expected buffs? Where'd you get this?
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Sounds like it'd still be hard to get kills, doesn't it? I mean doesn't Shen lack cc and chasing power to finish off someone? I can see you harassing the enemy with vorpal blade, but the cd on shadow dash is such that I don't see you kill somebody except if they were overly careless in how low they let you get them.
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On December 26 2011 23:00 Alaric wrote:
Sounds like it'd still be hard to get kills, doesn't it? I mean doesn't Shen lack cc and chasing power to finish off someone? I can see you harassing the enemy with vorpal blade, but the cd on shadow dash is such that I don't see you kill somebody except if they were overly careless in how low they let you get them.
But with such potentially strong range harass and sustain, even if you don't kill your opponent you should definitely out-sustain quite a few top laners. That you get heal from lasthitting is quite a big thing...
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I doubt all those buffs will go through. If they all go through it'll be an overbuff imo. Shen's kinda weak atm, but he's definitely not bad. Riot needs to be careful about buffing him or he'll go over the top.
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How was Shen post nerf actually? Your opinions and stats please
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Shen is like, terrible atm, I don't know how you can say otherwise...
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Iunno I personally don't think he's very good right now but some people have said he does okay in a few top lane matchups cause q harass is strong. Other than that he's got nothing going for him really.
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Omg really? They are going to overbuff shen -_- and for those who say he doesn't have any reliable cc your just wrong, I played shen not even a few months and I mastered him, almost every game I would get kills early to mid game then round out to assists late game, rarely going over 5 deaths. The key to shen was getting frozen mallet for the best cc in the game and landing your taunt which was super easy if you got boots of swiftness and grabbed cloak and dagger to ease your farming problems and so you can ignore most cc effects on yourself.
Now it looks like I'll be getting more kills then normal due to his passive being greatly increased, taunt being super strong and feint being godly...
P.S. anyone who would like for me to explain piece by piece how to master shen, I'd be glad to explain it.
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swifties and cloak and dagger omg why didnt i think of that
is phantom dancer the last item to round out your build
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On December 28 2011 02:49 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
is phantom dancer the last item to round out your build
obv shen needs to be the fastest player on the team so he can KILL KILL KILL KILL
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On December 28 2011 02:57 GARO wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 02:49 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
is phantom dancer the last item to round out your build obv shen needs to be the fastest player on the team so he can KILL KILL KILL KILL
No, obviously you haven't played shen with cloak and dagger before, he doesn't need to attack faster then that, well I guess I saw this coming seeing as majority of shen players just demand buffs and ignore anyone who has a solution that works, even if it's super specific. And shen doesn't kill with attack speed, he kills with his Ki strike, but then again I don't expect you to have played him more then 5 times, so I'm wasting my time with you.
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On December 28 2011 06:34 Psycho{Szerano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 02:57 GARO wrote:On December 28 2011 02:49 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
is phantom dancer the last item to round out your build obv shen needs to be the fastest player on the team so he can KILL KILL KILL KILL No, obviously you haven't played shen with cloak and dagger before, he doesn't need to attack faster then that, well I guess I saw this coming seeing as majority of shen players just demand buffs and ignore anyone who has a solution that works, even if it's super specific. And shen doesn't kill with attack speed, he kills with his Ki strike, but then again I don't expect you to have played him more then 5 times, so I'm wasting my time with you.
Before you act all high and mighty do you mind tellig us ur ign, server, and elo? I don't think I've ever seen you on these boards before...
Your build seems suboptimal. Frozen mallet is good, I see no problem with that. But c&d is pretty bad seeing how you don't need aspd or crit to do dmg with Shen. You said ur self Shen does dps through ki strike, which does not scale with ur aspd at all.
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On December 28 2011 08:19 Aukai wrote:
It's...
A...
Troll.
Probably but I'll give him a chance first. I checked his posting history and as of April 2011 he was only summoner lvl 13. So he's prolly an over zealous nub but I'm more than willing to see what he has to say.
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On December 28 2011 08:19 Aukai wrote:
It's...
A...
Troll.
Check his absolutely friendly and legit post history that does not harbor any sort of "trolling." (not even being sarcastic).
Honestly people use that word too much to make conflicts on their side seem calm and collected.
Just because someone has an idea that's out of touch with the main deal doesn't mean he's out to piss you all off. So pleeease just take a second to consider his ideas.
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I'm so exited about these buffs, I love Shen and have pretty solid success playing him with 1500-1800 elo players, these buffs will mostly be buffs to his laning though, which doesn't really solve the problem of him being ignored later.
Dagger buff: huge sustain buff, not gonna do much in fights
Shield buff: help a ton in 1v1 but never had a problem taking damage in teamfights anyway so it's not too much help
Dash buff: this one is very nice for teamfighting, duration is great and more energy
Passive buff: the percent is nice but not huge, the minion activation is huge, but only for lanIng when you are gonna be engaging in the middle of the wave.
We will see how this works out. He will definitely become a laning beast, he already is a very strong top...but not sure if this will help his teamfighting too much. Still gonna play him a ton. He's the only tank who can literally peel an entire team off of your squishies. And people forget how absolutely bananas his ult is and only try to use it at the very last second to save people...
Plus that passive buff is gonna make me feel so much better building him 5mogs atmas
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On December 28 2011 08:25 Ryuu314 wrote:Probably but I'll give him a chance first. I checked his posting history and as of April 2011 he was only summoner lvl 13. So he's prolly an over zealous nub but I'm more than willing to see what he has to say.
Ofc posting history in TL is SUCH an importance, the more posts you have the brighter you are right? Plus I've been lvl 30 for about 8-9 months now. The next thing I love how you pointed out that you wanted my elo, stats and everything else, as if elo makes the person. Lastly you've never even tried playing shen with c&d before, because for 1: it's better then farming with sunfire, the attack speed it provides means more frozen mallet procs and the crit from c&d acts like Ki strike with it's sub par damage (around 176 or so). Lastly because CC reduction is taken care of, you can get swiftness boots which means better chasing, better escaping AND with phase/ frozen mallet no escape.
As for this high horse crap, I'm not that type of guy. I can tell you now there are ALOT of champions I have no idea how to play however when I tell people about stuff I DO know about, they all of a sudden think of me as this little prick. Before you quote me again on ANYTHING I employ you to just TRY the build once. I'll sum it up here for you.
Start:
Boots x3 pot
grab phase/vamp secpter/c&d
grab swiftness boots to complete your core
grab chainvest and neg cloak since it's mid game, try to play safe until you have these.
finish frozen mallet
at some point feel free to convert your vamp into valor or even bildewater if you feel lulz.
chain vest into randuins/thorn
neg into force of nature always imo
This is build is completely situational, sometimes you will need phase early, sometimes you will need vamp early and sometimes you can get away with getting c&d for the easy farming early. It's all analytical and you must think carefully before buying.
But yes once you have tried my basic build I ask you come back and then trash it into the ground.
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On December 28 2011 08:40 PhuxPro wrote:Check his absolutely friendly and legit post history that does not harbor any sort of "trolling." (not even being sarcastic). Honestly people use that word too much to make conflicts on their side seem calm and collected. Just because someone has an idea that's out of touch with the main deal doesn't mean he's out to piss you all off. So pleeease just take a second to consider his ideas.
thanks for havin my back Phux
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On December 28 2011 09:27 Psycho{Szerano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 08:25 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 28 2011 08:19 Aukai wrote:
It's...
A...
Troll. Probably but I'll give him a chance first. I checked his posting history and as of April 2011 he was only summoner lvl 13. So he's prolly an over zealous nub but I'm more than willing to see what he has to say. Ofc posting history in TL is SUCH an importance, the more posts you have the brighter you are right? Plus I've been lvl 30 for about 8-9 months now. The next thing I love how you pointed out that you wanted my elo, stats and everything else, as if elo makes the person. Lastly you've never even tried playing shen with c&d before, because for 1: it's better then farming with sunfire, the attack speed it provides means more frozen mallet procs and the crit from c&d acts like Ki strike with it's sub par damage (around 176 or so). Lastly because CC reduction is taken care of, you can get swiftness boots which means better chasing, better escaping AND with phase/ frozen mallet no escape. As for this high horse crap, I'm not that type of guy. I can tell you now there are ALOT of champions I have no idea how to play however when I tell people about stuff I DO know about, they all of a sudden think of me as this little prick. Before you quote me again on ANYTHING I employ you to just TRY the build once. I'll sum it up here for you. Start: Boots x3 pot grab phase/vamp secpter/c&d grab swiftness boots to complete your core grab chainvest and neg cloak since it's mid game, try to play safe until you have these. finish frozen mallet at some point feel free to convert your vamp into valor or even bildewater if you feel lulz. chain vest into randuins/thorn neg into force of nature always imo This is build is completely situational, sometimes you will need phase early, sometimes you will need vamp early and sometimes you can get away with getting c&d for the easy farming early. It's all analytical and you must think carefully before buying. But yes once you have tried my basic build I ask you come back and then trash it into the ground.
This is a kind of a standard build besides your shitty boots of swiftness. I don't understand building the vamp specter that builds into nothingness.
The most optimal build is rushing HoG->Atmas->Building accordingly to team comp
You should almost never be rushing thornmail, practically a useless item. must work for sub 1k elo
p.s. it's phage not phase
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Swift boots make no sense at all on Shen...when are you ever having problems chasing? You have a dash taunt...Chen isn't bursty at all so the extra 2 autos you get in with swifts aren't going to do anything. Escaping is also super easy...you should like never be in bad situations alone as Shen and you can just dash through walls, be tanky and even port out if it gets really bad. Of all the heroes I am tempted to go swifts on...I have never ever even remotely felt like I wanted them on Shen.
Can you describe a situation why you would build swiftboots?
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On December 28 2011 09:37 asianskill wrote:
This is a kind of a standard build besides your shitty boots of swiftness. I don't understand building the vamp specter that builds into nothingness.
The most optimal build is rushing HoG->Atmas->Building accordingly to team comp
You should almost never be rushing thornmail, practically a useless item. must work for sub 1k elo
p.s. it's phage not phase
Hmm that's strange considering Hog is a part of randiness, an option I gave for the chain vest, second, I never said rush thornmail PERIOD, I said rush frozen mallet. Lastly atmas? Umm extra damage based on your hp plus crit? Sounds like an improved crit from my c&d. Also forgot your comment on vamp, well it cam be made into starks (helps AD carry)OR a 300 damage nuke called gunblade....honestly you brought nothing to this conversation at all, my build is near identical to yours, but with better farming. For example, HOG vs phage? both give hp however your gives gold per 5. c&d vs atmas? yours gives more damage, and armour making you weak to mages, mines gives me the option to farm large creep waves and escape most ganks. I'm assuming you use CC boots which in comparison to my swift boots, I move faster, can chase single targets and slow them(phage/mallet) to allow my team to catch up and finish them. Honestly you didn't think your post out at all and quite frankly I'm offended you even critiqued my build with the near EXACT build but called mines obsolete because what? mines gives more support to my team? mines allows me to survive most situations normal shen builds won't? please come back with something a little bit more constructive.
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On December 28 2011 09:54 sob3k wrote:
Swift boots make no sense at all on Shen...when are you ever having problems chasing? You have a dash taunt...Chen isn't bursty at all so the extra 2 autos you get in with swifts aren't going to do anything. Escaping is also super easy...you should like never be in bad situations alone as Shen and you can just dash through walls, be tanky and even port out if it gets really bad. Of all the heroes I am tempted to go swifts on...I have never ever even remotely felt like I wanted them on Shen.
Can you describe a situation why you would build swiftboots?
Firstly you build them all the time, you have to think about the entire build before you try and rip it apart, it's like a fine wire mesh. For example, those two auto's you get from swift boots gives you more chases to proc phage/mallet, and problems chasing? Have you even had that one bad player who just missed everything? your taunt could possibly miss or even wiff just slightly not triggering the taunt, I've had that many times without swift boots but with them taunt is easier to land, just natural I guess. as for the burst problem, the crit from c&d acts like a ki strike so even on top of the phage procs you can still do some extra damage. This is what has worked for me for a long time with shen this build is so good I actually consider shen as op. Now keep in mind I'm expecting everyone in ehre to know about how to deal with shen's energy problems so I'm assuming your all good shen players, just try the build out, it WORKS, you just gotta use it right, also a key note I always have in the back of my mind as a shen player is to never initiate a fight if you will be outnumbered at the start, this is mainly because shen isn't ULTRA tanky with this build HOWEVER it gives him enough tank to survive 2 people or so and live pretty easy. Plus his clean up is FANTASTIC due to phage and his swift boots...just...just try it, I ask you sir.
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I'm sure your build "works", I've won many games with Shen stacking warmogs, but that doesn't mean that's a good or optimal build. Nobody here is going to believe your build is good unless you show us high level games where it works as you claim or if you show us that you are 2200elo.
On a side note
DuUDE, I'm totally gonna build gunblade on Shen! That's an awesome idea! The AP is cool for Q and ult (.75 ratio on Q, that's good), Shen always needs more AD, and the Active would be pretty sick and help him be more of a threat plus helping slow people and keep them away from da AD.
It's totally viable! HOG straigt into gunblade top Shen new flavor of the week you heard it here first!
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On December 28 2011 10:17 sob3k wrote:
DUDE, I'm totally gonna build gunblade on Shen! That's an awesome idea! The AP is cool for Q and ult (.75 ratio on Q, that's good), Shen always needs more AD, and the Active would be pretty sick and help him be more of a threat plus helping slow people and keep them away from da AD.
It's totally viable!
Well whenever we have the upper hand my friend always builds rylai on shen... Health + AP (AP ON SHEN IS STRONK) + basically no one ever gets away between your Q and your dash
It's totally viable!
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On December 28 2011 09:27 Psycho{Szerano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 08:25 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 28 2011 08:19 Aukai wrote:
It's...
A...
Troll. Probably but I'll give him a chance first. I checked his posting history and as of April 2011 he was only summoner lvl 13. So he's prolly an over zealous nub but I'm more than willing to see what he has to say. Ofc posting history in TL is SUCH an importance, the more posts you have the brighter you are right? Plus I've been lvl 30 for about 8-9 months now. The next thing I love how you pointed out that you wanted my elo, stats and everything else, as if elo makes the person.
Posting history isn't everything but it does show a good amount of background. The post in question that I'm refering to.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169180¤tpage=3#59
You said you were lvl 13 in April this year. It reinforces what you say about bein lvl 30 for 8 months. Not sure why you're picking on that. Furthermore, as much as people like to complain about elo hell and all that shit, your elo, with a generous ~100 point variance, is generally a very very good indicator of your skill level and understanding of the game. That's why people like Smash and Loci's opinions are generally more highly valued than other posters who's elo is low/middle range.
Now to actually critique your build:
Phage into Frozen Mallet is a good idea and it's solid. Powers your passive and gives you more cc.
Vamp scepter can be okay for sustain and I personally have been toying with the idea of rushing/grabbing Starks on most top laners so no problem with that.
The other tank options are quite standard and are pretty good as well.
The biggest issue I, and most other critics, have with your build is the Boots of Swiftness and C&D. As Shen, especially with Frozen Mallet, you have absolutely no problem sticking to your target. Swifties are thus useless; especially when your build builds Shen as a support/tank. Merc treads or tabis provide much more survivability than swifties and are more useful for a tanky champ. You also say that swifties make it so you can chase shit down easier so missing taunt is more forgivable. Well here's the thing, you shouldn't be missing taunt in the first place. If you're missin taunts you just need to play better. Getting suboptimal items won't help you. That's kinda why Manamune went out of favor on the vast majority of champs that used to use it. Misplaying your champ isn't an excuse to get suboptimal item builds.
Your reasons for buildin C&D are cc reduction, more attack speed which means more farming and more Frozen Mallet procs, and the crit for a damage boost. Now, you should be building merc treads for your cc reduction first of all. The power of merc treads is just too good to pass up; that magic resist is too valuable for a tanky champ like Shen. Secondly, your reasoning of more aspd = more farming and more Frozen Mallet procs is flawed logic. No one builds Sunfire on Shen anymore; Sunfire is a bad item in general after all the nerfs, espeically compared to other items out there. More attack speed =/= better farming; sure you attack creeps faster, but the gain from that is neglible. You're still going to have issues with farming as Shen due to lack of creep clearing abilities regardless of how much aspd you have. Additionally, Frozen Mallet procs lasts for 2.5 seconds. If you can't hit a target that's being slowed by 40% every 2.5 seconds you're doing it wrong. If you want more damage, instead of investing ~1.5k into c&d, you're better off building an Atma's which gives you more tank, more damage, and comparable amounts of crit.
Heck, if you really really want mvspd and aspd and crit chance get Zeal, which is much cheaper than swifties+c&d, more cost effective, and can build into Triforce, which isn't half bad on Shen.
Just because a build works for you doesn't mean it's optimal. At suboptimal levels of play you can get away with suboptimal builds. I've gone pure AP shen and had some success with that; doesn't mean AP shen is #1 shen build (altho Rylais should be core on Shen imoimo). I try out your swifties+c&d build, but I don't expect much from it tbh.
EDIT: Look, we're not trying to discourage you. Low elo players can and have had some pretty neat ideas from time to time. That's kinda how Mordekaiser became near perma-ban status at high elo before his nerfs. It was a trickle-up effect of sorts. The issue is when you post a build that has glaring flaws, we're going to point them out. Unless you can offer good, solid, undebatable evidence/proof that your build is #1, we're going to be critical.
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On December 28 2011 10:17 sob3k wrote:
I'm sure your build "works", I've won many games with Shen stacking warmogs, but that doesn't mean that's a good or optimal build. Nobody here is going to believe your build is good unless you show us high level games where it works as you claim or if you show us that you are 2200elo.
On a side note
DUDE, I'm totally gonna build gunblade on Shen! That's an awesome idea! The AP is cool for Q and ult (.75 ratio on Q, that's good), Shen always needs more AD, and the Active would be pretty sick and help him be more of a threat plus helping slow people and keep them away from da AD.
It's totally viable!
Ok don't use my build whatever, I can't believe this community is so bad it won't even bother trying out a build before critiquing it. It's sad but it's the world we live in I guess, also the gun blade part is like the very LAST item on your shopping list so you'll almsot never get it but it does help more then you think.
I'll be honest here, I'm not a top elo player, I don't have 5k wins and over 2k elo purely with shen. I'm just a meager little 900 elo kid with no dreams and 427 normal wins. I have no idea what shen is capable of nor do I know what is optimal because everyone knows if the math works, then the build works, if the math don't work then the build don't work. let's ignore the fact this build has near 100% synergy and the only thing you'd lose out in trying the build is time but alas time is much too important for these 5k + elo players. Thanks for pubstomping a no body, I'm sure you have better things to do.
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On December 28 2011 08:48 sob3k wrote:
I'm so exited about these buffs, I love Shen and have pretty solid success playing him with 1500-1800 elo players, these buffs will mostly be buffs to his laning though, which doesn't really solve the problem of him being ignored later.
Dagger buff: huge sustain buff, not gonna do much in fights
Shield buff: help a ton in 1v1 but never had a problem taking damage in teamfights anyway so it's not too much help
Dash buff: this one is very nice for teamfighting, duration is great and more energy
Passive buff: the percent is nice but not huge, the minion activation is huge, but only for lanIng when you are gonna be engaging in the middle of the wave.
We will see how this works out. He will definitely become a laning beast, he already is a very strong top...but not sure if this will help his teamfighting too much. Still gonna play him a ton. He's the only tank who can literally peel an entire team off of your squishies. And people forget how absolutely bananas his ult is and only try to use it at the very last second to save people...
Plus that passive buff is gonna make me feel so much better building him 5mogs atmas
Iunno if all those buffs are as neglible as you make 'em seem.
Q buff is 2% of maximum hp per hit. That's a lot dude...especially since it triggers on spells, not just autos. Which means you tag a target with your vorpal blade and everyone attacking it regens ~1-2% of their hp per second as they focus that target -.-;
Shield buff is kinda meh imo
Taunt buff is pretty big like you said
Passive buff is a 50% damage increase before factoring in the reduction in cooldown from minions...how is that not huge...>.>
EDIT: @ Psycho{Szerano: I don't think sob3k was bein sarcastic about gunblade. It's actually a neat idea considering how well Shen scales with AP and the active is good on anybody.
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On December 28 2011 10:24 Psycho{Szerano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 10:17 sob3k wrote:
I'm sure your build "works", I've won many games with Shen stacking warmogs, but that doesn't mean that's a good or optimal build. Nobody here is going to believe your build is good unless you show us high level games where it works as you claim or if you show us that you are 2200elo.
On a side note
DUDE, I'm totally gonna build gunblade on Shen! That's an awesome idea! The AP is cool for Q and ult (.75 ratio on Q, that's good), Shen always needs more AD, and the Active would be pretty sick and help him be more of a threat plus helping slow people and keep them away from da AD.
It's totally viable! Ok don't use my build whatever, I can't believe this community is so bad it won't even bother trying out a build before critiquing it. It's sad but it's the world we live in I guess, also the gun blade part is like the very LAST item on your shopping list so you'll almsot never get it but it does help more then you think. I'll be honest here, I'm not a top elo player, I don't have 5k wins and over 2k elo purely with shen. I'm just a meager little 900 elo kid with no dreams and 427 normal wins. I have no idea what shen is capable of nor do I know what is optimal because everyone knows if the math works, then the build works, if the math don't work then the build don't work. let's ignore the fact this build has near 100% synergy and the only thing you'd lose out in trying the build is time but alas time is much too important for these 5k + elo players. Thanks for pubstomping a no body, I'm sure you have better things to do.
TL is gonna be rough for you bro
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On December 28 2011 10:24 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 09:27 Psycho{Szerano wrote:On December 28 2011 08:25 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 28 2011 08:19 Aukai wrote:
It's...
A...
Troll. Probably but I'll give him a chance first. I checked his posting history and as of April 2011 he was only summoner lvl 13. So he's prolly an over zealous nub but I'm more than willing to see what he has to say. Ofc posting history in TL is SUCH an importance, the more posts you have the brighter you are right? Plus I've been lvl 30 for about 8-9 months now. The next thing I love how you pointed out that you wanted my elo, stats and everything else, as if elo makes the person. Posting history isn't everything but it does show a good amount of background. The post in question that I'm refering to. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169180¤tpage=3#59You said you were lvl 13 in April this year. It reinforces what you say about bein lvl 30 for 8 months. Not sure why you're picking on that. Furthermore, as much as people like to complain about elo hell and all that shit, your elo, with a generous ~100 point variance, is generally a very very good indicator of your skill level and understanding of the game. That's why people like Smash and Loci's opinions are generally more highly valued than other posters who's elo is low/middle range. Now to actually critique your build: Phage into Frozen Mallet is a good idea and it's solid. Powers your passive and gives you more cc. Vamp scepter can be okay for sustain and I personally have been toying with the idea of rushing/grabbing Starks on most top laners so no problem with that. The other tank options are quite standard and are pretty good as well. The biggest issue I, and most other critics, have with your build is the Boots of Swiftness and C&D. As Shen, especially with Frozen Mallet, you have absolutely no problem sticking to your target. Swifties are thus useless; especially when your build builds Shen as a support/tank. Merc treads or tabis provide much more survivability than swifties and are more useful for a tanky champ. You also say that swifties make it so you can chase shit down easier so missing taunt is more forgivable. Well here's the thing, you shouldn't be missing taunt in the first place. If you're missin taunts you just need to play better. Getting suboptimal items won't help you. That's kinda why Manamune went out of favor on the vast majority of champs that used to use it. Misplaying your champ isn't an excuse to get suboptimal item builds. Your reasons for buildin C&D are cc reduction, more attack speed which means more farming and more Frozen Mallet procs, and the crit for a damage boost. Now, you should be building merc treads for your cc reduction first of all. The power of merc treads is just too good to pass up; that magic resist is too valuable for a tanky champ like Shen. Secondly, your reasoning of more aspd = more farming and more Frozen Mallet procs is flawed logic. No one builds Sunfire on Shen anymore; Sunfire is a bad item in general after all the nerfs, espeically compared to other items out there. More attack speed =/= better farming; sure you attack creeps faster, but the gain from that is neglible. You're still going to have issues with farming as Shen due to lack of creep clearing abilities regardless of how much aspd you have. Additionally, Frozen Mallet procs lasts for 2.5 seconds. If you can't hit a target that's being slowed by 40% every 2.5 seconds you're doing it wrong. If you want more damage, instead of investing ~1.5k into c&d, you're better off building an Atma's which gives you more tank, more damage, and comparable amounts of crit. Heck, if you really really want mvspd and aspd and crit chance get Zeal, which is much cheaper than swifties+c&d, more cost effective, and can build into Triforce, which isn't half bad on Shen. Just because a build works for you doesn't mean it's optimal. At suboptimal levels of play you can get away with suboptimal builds. I've gone pure AP shen and had some success with that; doesn't mean AP shen is #1 shen build (altho Rylais should be core on Shen imoimo). I try out your swifties+c&d build, but I don't expect much from it tbh. EDIT: Look, we're not trying to discourage you. Low elo players can and have had some pretty neat ideas from time to time. That's kinda how Mordekaiser became near perma-ban status at high elo before his nerfs. It was a trickle-up effect of sorts. The issue is when you post a build that has glaring flaws, we're going to point them out. Unless you can offer good, solid, undebatable evidence/proof that your build is #1, we're going to be critical.
Ok finally a REAL critic *cracks knuckles*
Firstly I ONLY have mordekaiser on my EU account hence that post saying I was lvl 13. I left EU wehn I was lvl 8 to try out US servers and I stayed there until lvl 30 in which case I switched back to EU. If you want to believe it or not thats totally up to you I understand if you think that's a joke. Now moving on,
First of all is the boots, yes yes I know there can be better options other there especially tabis but there is a reason I grab swiftness boots, it's because I usually don't have frozen mallet when picking boots, usually it's mid game and I have lvl 1 boots, phage, vamp and c&d so I have to get my next teir of boots otherwise I'd be too slow. Thus the swiftness boots which with phage works really well. As for missing taunt I only miss maybe one taunt in an entire game? HOwever most of the time because I'm such a low elo player(aka NOOB) my teammates are....blind when it comes to landing stuns to most times they get away (in normal games too) even with phage they end up being able to run away before we eventually kill them.
As for the optimal part, I never said ANYTHING about being optimal, I did say I mastered shen but meh I admit that was a step to far, however I am good with shen, the main driving point is that this build has alot of synergy but in no way do I consider it fully optimal. As for the farming part, I've been seeing alot of shens get sunfires so yeah that's why I brought that up. For the zeal and trinity, yeah I thought about it a lot of times and I really liked the damage but I noticed that getting it is a hassle, I don't know maybe it's just me? Farm comes by hard for shen so I looked at which items would be within the 1k per item and 2.5kish range to complete and this is what I discovered, yes you can get trinity to replace the c&d and yes you can get cc boots but I find the extra mobility to die for when it comes to shen. And I'm glad your going to try it out, if you come back and say it's still bad I'd gladly step away from this argument.
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On December 28 2011 10:36 sob3k wrote:
TL is gonna be rough for you bro
Honestly I couldn't tell if he was serious or not so my bad. Also I remember TL was a lot friendlier last time I posted, things seem to change fast I guess..
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On December 28 2011 10:31 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 08:48 sob3k wrote:
I'm so exited about these buffs, I love Shen and have pretty solid success playing him with 1500-1800 elo players, these buffs will mostly be buffs to his laning though, which doesn't really solve the problem of him being ignored later.
Dagger buff: huge sustain buff, not gonna do much in fights
Shield buff: help a ton in 1v1 but never had a problem taking damage in teamfights anyway so it's not too much help
Dash buff: this one is very nice for teamfighting, duration is great and more energy
Passive buff: the percent is nice but not huge, the minion activation is huge, but only for lanIng when you are gonna be engaging in the middle of the wave.
We will see how this works out. He will definitely become a laning beast, he already is a very strong top...but not sure if this will help his teamfighting too much. Still gonna play him a ton. He's the only tank who can literally peel an entire team off of your squishies. And people forget how absolutely bananas his ult is and only try to use it at the very last second to save people...
Plus that passive buff is gonna make me feel so much better building him 5mogs atmas Iunno if all those buffs are as neglible as you make 'em seem. Q buff is 2% of maximum hp per hit. That's a lot dude...especially since it triggers on spells, not just autos. Which means you tag a target with your vorpal blade and everyone attacking it regens ~1-2% of their hp per second as they focus that target -.-; Shield buff is kinda meh imo Taunt buff is pretty big like you said Passive buff is a 50% damage increase before factoring in the reduction in cooldown from minions...how is that not huge...>.> EDIT: @ Psycho{Szerano: I don't think sob3k was bein sarcastic about gunblade. It's actually a neat idea considering how well Shen scales with AP and the active is good on anybody.
Wow, I didn't notice that the 2% was per hit.... That's actually completely ridiculous, gragas's passive is 2% over 4 seconds... I cannot believe they are going to put that in, the amount of heal coming off of a focused target in a teamfight is going to be preposterous. That's like nuts
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On December 28 2011 10:42 Psycho{Szerano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 10:24 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 28 2011 09:27 Psycho{Szerano wrote:On December 28 2011 08:25 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 28 2011 08:19 Aukai wrote:
It's...
A...
Troll. Probably but I'll give him a chance first. I checked his posting history and as of April 2011 he was only summoner lvl 13. So he's prolly an over zealous nub but I'm more than willing to see what he has to say. Ofc posting history in TL is SUCH an importance, the more posts you have the brighter you are right? Plus I've been lvl 30 for about 8-9 months now. The next thing I love how you pointed out that you wanted my elo, stats and everything else, as if elo makes the person. Posting history isn't everything but it does show a good amount of background. The post in question that I'm refering to. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169180¤tpage=3#59You said you were lvl 13 in April this year. It reinforces what you say about bein lvl 30 for 8 months. Not sure why you're picking on that. Furthermore, as much as people like to complain about elo hell and all that shit, your elo, with a generous ~100 point variance, is generally a very very good indicator of your skill level and understanding of the game. That's why people like Smash and Loci's opinions are generally more highly valued than other posters who's elo is low/middle range. Now to actually critique your build: Phage into Frozen Mallet is a good idea and it's solid. Powers your passive and gives you more cc. Vamp scepter can be okay for sustain and I personally have been toying with the idea of rushing/grabbing Starks on most top laners so no problem with that. The other tank options are quite standard and are pretty good as well. The biggest issue I, and most other critics, have with your build is the Boots of Swiftness and C&D. As Shen, especially with Frozen Mallet, you have absolutely no problem sticking to your target. Swifties are thus useless; especially when your build builds Shen as a support/tank. Merc treads or tabis provide much more survivability than swifties and are more useful for a tanky champ. You also say that swifties make it so you can chase shit down easier so missing taunt is more forgivable. Well here's the thing, you shouldn't be missing taunt in the first place. If you're missin taunts you just need to play better. Getting suboptimal items won't help you. That's kinda why Manamune went out of favor on the vast majority of champs that used to use it. Misplaying your champ isn't an excuse to get suboptimal item builds. Your reasons for buildin C&D are cc reduction, more attack speed which means more farming and more Frozen Mallet procs, and the crit for a damage boost. Now, you should be building merc treads for your cc reduction first of all. The power of merc treads is just too good to pass up; that magic resist is too valuable for a tanky champ like Shen. Secondly, your reasoning of more aspd = more farming and more Frozen Mallet procs is flawed logic. No one builds Sunfire on Shen anymore; Sunfire is a bad item in general after all the nerfs, espeically compared to other items out there. More attack speed =/= better farming; sure you attack creeps faster, but the gain from that is neglible. You're still going to have issues with farming as Shen due to lack of creep clearing abilities regardless of how much aspd you have. Additionally, Frozen Mallet procs lasts for 2.5 seconds. If you can't hit a target that's being slowed by 40% every 2.5 seconds you're doing it wrong. If you want more damage, instead of investing ~1.5k into c&d, you're better off building an Atma's which gives you more tank, more damage, and comparable amounts of crit. Heck, if you really really want mvspd and aspd and crit chance get Zeal, which is much cheaper than swifties+c&d, more cost effective, and can build into Triforce, which isn't half bad on Shen. Just because a build works for you doesn't mean it's optimal. At suboptimal levels of play you can get away with suboptimal builds. I've gone pure AP shen and had some success with that; doesn't mean AP shen is #1 shen build (altho Rylais should be core on Shen imoimo). I try out your swifties+c&d build, but I don't expect much from it tbh. EDIT: Look, we're not trying to discourage you. Low elo players can and have had some pretty neat ideas from time to time. That's kinda how Mordekaiser became near perma-ban status at high elo before his nerfs. It was a trickle-up effect of sorts. The issue is when you post a build that has glaring flaws, we're going to point them out. Unless you can offer good, solid, undebatable evidence/proof that your build is #1, we're going to be critical. Ok finally a REAL critic *cracks knuckles* Firstly I ONLY have mordekaiser on my EU account hence that post saying I was lvl 13. I left EU wehn I was lvl 8 to try out US servers and I stayed there until lvl 30 in which case I switched back to EU. If you want to believe it or not thats totally up to you I understand if you think that's a joke. Now moving on, First of all is the boots, yes yes I know there can be better options other there especially tabis but there is a reason I grab swiftness boots, it's because I usually don't have frozen mallet when picking boots, usually it's mid game and I have lvl 1 boots, phage, vamp and c&d so I have to get my next teir of boots otherwise I'd be too slow. Thus the swiftness boots which with phage works really well. As for missing taunt I only miss maybe one taunt in an entire game? HOwever most of the time because I'm such a low elo player(aka NOOB) my teammates are....blind when it comes to landing stuns to most times they get away (in normal games too) even with phage they end up being able to run away before we eventually kill them. As for the optimal part, I never said ANYTHING about being optimal, I did say I mastered shen but meh I admit that was a step to far, however I am good with shen, the main driving point is that this build has alot of synergy but in no way do I consider it fully optimal. As for the farming part, I've been seeing alot of shens get sunfires so yeah that's why I brought that up. For the zeal and trinity, yeah I thought about it a lot of times and I really liked the damage but I noticed that getting it is a hassle, I don't know maybe it's just me? Farm comes by hard for shen so I looked at which items would be within the 1k per item and 2.5kish range to complete and this is what I discovered, yes you can get trinity to replace the c&d and yes you can get cc boots but I find the extra mobility to die for when it comes to shen. And I'm glad your going to try it out, if you come back and say it's still bad I'd gladly step away from this argument.
Instead of getting C&D, you can grab a zeal, which leaves you with ~400 gold left over to build towards tier 2 boots OR you can use that ~1.5k to build towards frozen mallet. Honestly, c&d and swifities are just really bad items in general x]. Those slots and gold is just much better being spent elsewhere. Phage also procs the slow a decent amount so keeping up with enemies shouldn't be too hard. I'd invest in movespeed quints if the lack of mspd is really noticeable for you. Mvspd quints are good on everybody anyways lol. Triforce is a very hard item to get, especially on Shen who has shitty farming capabilities. But again, if mvspd, aspd, and crit % is really that important to you, you're much much better off getting a zeal and leaving it while you complete other items than shelling out ~2k+ for swifites+c&d. Especially since swifties+c&d are dead end items, whereas zeal has late game options.
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On December 28 2011 10:49 Ryuu314 wrote:
Instead of getting C&D, you can grab a zeal, which leaves you with ~400 gold left over to build towards tier 2 boots OR you can use that ~1.5k to build towards frozen mallet. Honestly, c&d and swifities are just really bad items in general x]. Those slots and gold is just much better being spent elsewhere. Phage also procs the slow a decent amount so keeping up with enemies shouldn't be too hard. I'd invest in movespeed quints if the lack of mspd is really noticeable for you. Mvspd quints are good on everybody anyways lol. Triforce is a very hard item to get, especially on Shen who has shitty farming capabilities. But again, if mvspd, aspd, and crit % is really that important to you, you're much much better off getting a zeal and leaving it while you complete other items than shelling out ~2k+ for swifites+c&d. Especially since swifties+c&d are dead end items, whereas zeal has late game options.
Oh funny thing, I don't have JACK when it comes to runes, I like have all teir 1 and I use this build and still win with a impressive k/d/a so maybe because you have those mvspd quints it feels better with cc boots. As for me I'm basically playing shen without runes. I can put my ign here if you want to see for youself but I'm speaking honestly here. I have only 2 teir 3 runes lol. But umm as for dead end items yeah they are however I find it wierd that despite them being dead end items I can't get enough farm to actually have access gold, most games I hardly have the build completed and I'm 2/4/19 with the enemy nexus destoryed. Oh well all I can say is try it yourself becuase it works for me! almost every person I have beaten had full teir 3 runes so it goes to show it's got some merit...if you don't think so if you need me to prove anything at all I wouldn't mind playing a game or two with you to prove it...
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On December 28 2011 10:57 Psycho{Szerano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 10:49 Ryuu314 wrote:
Instead of getting C&D, you can grab a zeal, which leaves you with ~400 gold left over to build towards tier 2 boots OR you can use that ~1.5k to build towards frozen mallet. Honestly, c&d and swifities are just really bad items in general x]. Those slots and gold is just much better being spent elsewhere. Phage also procs the slow a decent amount so keeping up with enemies shouldn't be too hard. I'd invest in movespeed quints if the lack of mspd is really noticeable for you. Mvspd quints are good on everybody anyways lol. Triforce is a very hard item to get, especially on Shen who has shitty farming capabilities. But again, if mvspd, aspd, and crit % is really that important to you, you're much much better off getting a zeal and leaving it while you complete other items than shelling out ~2k+ for swifites+c&d. Especially since swifties+c&d are dead end items, whereas zeal has late game options. Oh funny thing, I don't have JACK when it comes to runes, I like have all teir 1 and I use this build and still win with a impressive k/d/a so maybe because you have those mvspd quints it feels better with cc boots. As for me I'm basically playing shen without runes. I can put my ign here if you want to see for youself but I'm speaking honestly here. I have only 2 teir 3 runes lol. But umm as for dead end items yeah they are however I find it wierd that despite them being dead end items I can't get enough farm to actually have access gold, most games I hardly have the build completed and I'm 2/4/19 with the enemy nexus destoryed. Oh well all I can say is try it yourself becuase it works for me! almost every person I have beaten had full teir 3 runes so it goes to show it's got some merit...if you don't think so if you need me to prove anything at all I wouldn't mind playing a game or two with you to prove it...
You have tier 1 runes and are 900 elo. We're only critiquing you so harshly because we don't need new players getting bad advice. If your Shen is so roflstomp, please upload some replays and get yourself out of elo hell. Otherwise, no one is going to trust your advice
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United States37500 Posts
@Psycho{Szerano:
Server, Ingame Name, and elo please.
The advice you're suggesting (Boots of Swiftness, rushing Mallet, etc) are all terrible item choices.
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On December 28 2011 10:57 Psycho{Szerano wrote:
Oh funny thing, I don't have JACK when it comes to runes, I like have all teir 1 and I use this build and still win with a impressive k/d/a so maybe because you have those mvspd quints it feels better with cc boots. As for me I'm basically playing shen without runes. I can put my ign here if you want to see for youself but I'm speaking honestly here. I have only 2 teir 3 runes lol. But umm as for dead end items yeah they are however I find it wierd that despite them being dead end items I can't get enough farm to actually have access gold, most games I hardly have the build completed and I'm 2/4/19 with the enemy nexus destoryed. Oh well all I can say is try it yourself becuase it works for me! almost every person I have beaten had full teir 3 runes so it goes to show it's got some merit...if you don't think so if you need me to prove anything at all I wouldn't mind playing a game or two with you to prove it...
Hi I'm 5HITCOMBO and I was platinum S1.
A) You're in 900 Elo ranked. Everyone in every single one of your games is worse than any player I have ever played with. If your K/D/A isn't high you're incredibly stupid because people at this Elo couldn't beat me 1v5.
B) Builds don't have to be good or make sense at your level because your normal Elo and ranked Elo are both incredibly low. I could build crit chance rammus and I'd still basically never die. 900 Elo is people who have a mildly hard time against bots.
C) Holy shit the build we're talking about is bad.
D) We're not judging you as a person. We're trying to keep our forum clean. We don't want advice from 900 Elo players on how to play like a 900 Elo in a forum that has discussions between players who have been #1 on the ladder and play in high-profile cash prize events. This is a competitive forum. We are not insulting you when we say you really need to improve your thought process, we're being real. You're not on the level where you should be telling people what to build on any champ. You can change that, sure, but prove it to us first.
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Ryuu actually gave you some really in-depth knowledge and advice, it's better to have a little humility and accept it than it is to treat it like a debate you have to win.
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On December 28 2011 14:59 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 10:57 Psycho{Szerano wrote:
Oh funny thing, I don't have JACK when it comes to runes, I like have all teir 1 and I use this build and still win with a impressive k/d/a so maybe because you have those mvspd quints it feels better with cc boots. As for me I'm basically playing shen without runes. I can put my ign here if you want to see for youself but I'm speaking honestly here. I have only 2 teir 3 runes lol. But umm as for dead end items yeah they are however I find it wierd that despite them being dead end items I can't get enough farm to actually have access gold, most games I hardly have the build completed and I'm 2/4/19 with the enemy nexus destoryed. Oh well all I can say is try it yourself becuase it works for me! almost every person I have beaten had full teir 3 runes so it goes to show it's got some merit...if you don't think so if you need me to prove anything at all I wouldn't mind playing a game or two with you to prove it... Hi I'm 5HITCOMBO and I was platinum S1. A) You're in 900 Elo ranked. Everyone in every single one of your games is worse than any player I have ever played with. If your K/D/A isn't high you're incredibly stupid because people at this Elo couldn't beat me 1v5. B) Builds don't have to be good or make sense at your level because your normal Elo and ranked Elo are both incredibly low. I could build crit chance rammus and I'd still basically never die. 900 Elo is people who have a mildly hard time against bots. C) Holy shit the build we're talking about is bad. D) We're not judging you as a person. We're trying to keep our forum clean. We don't want advice from 900 Elo players on how to play like a 900 Elo in a forum that has discussions between players who have been #1 on the ladder and play in high-profile cash prize events. This is a competitive forum. We are not insulting you when we say you really need to improve your thought process, we're being real. You're not on the level where you should be telling people what to build on any champ. You can change that, sure, but prove it to us first.
Idk, I'd like to see you 1v5 900 ELO ranked. If you can't win 100% of the time, I'd say everything else in your post is also invalid.
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On December 28 2011 16:39 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 14:59 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On December 28 2011 10:57 Psycho{Szerano wrote:
Oh funny thing, I don't have JACK when it comes to runes, I like have all teir 1 and I use this build and still win with a impressive k/d/a so maybe because you have those mvspd quints it feels better with cc boots. As for me I'm basically playing shen without runes. I can put my ign here if you want to see for youself but I'm speaking honestly here. I have only 2 teir 3 runes lol. But umm as for dead end items yeah they are however I find it wierd that despite them being dead end items I can't get enough farm to actually have access gold, most games I hardly have the build completed and I'm 2/4/19 with the enemy nexus destoryed. Oh well all I can say is try it yourself becuase it works for me! almost every person I have beaten had full teir 3 runes so it goes to show it's got some merit...if you don't think so if you need me to prove anything at all I wouldn't mind playing a game or two with you to prove it... Hi I'm 5HITCOMBO and I was platinum S1. A) You're in 900 Elo ranked. Everyone in every single one of your games is worse than any player I have ever played with. If your K/D/A isn't high you're incredibly stupid because people at this Elo couldn't beat me 1v5. B) Builds don't have to be good or make sense at your level because your normal Elo and ranked Elo are both incredibly low. I could build crit chance rammus and I'd still basically never die. 900 Elo is people who have a mildly hard time against bots. C) Holy shit the build we're talking about is bad. D) We're not judging you as a person. We're trying to keep our forum clean. We don't want advice from 900 Elo players on how to play like a 900 Elo in a forum that has discussions between players who have been #1 on the ladder and play in high-profile cash prize events. This is a competitive forum. We are not insulting you when we say you really need to improve your thought process, we're being real. You're not on the level where you should be telling people what to build on any champ. You can change that, sure, but prove it to us first. Idk, I'd like to see you 1v5 900 ELO ranked. If you can't win 100% of the time, I'd say everything else in your post is also invalid.
it's a bit on the arrogant side, but I and i'm sure several other ppl on this board can vouch for the fact that 5hit is a good player and generally knows what he's talking about. This other guy that he's talking about is, on the other hand, making even greater claims ('master' of shen, lol) and doesn't even budge from his opinion when his build is largely formulated from play at a sub-par level. It doesn't help that he's a self-proclaimed 900 player, and while that doesn't necessarily invalidate his opinion, it certainly makes a lot of ppl here raise eyebrows, and for good reason. We've had issues with this sort of thing before (see 1st kassadin thread) and 9 times out of 10 it's better to nip these things in the bud
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On December 28 2011 16:39 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 14:59 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On December 28 2011 10:57 Psycho{Szerano wrote:
Oh funny thing, I don't have JACK when it comes to runes, I like have all teir 1 and I use this build and still win with a impressive k/d/a so maybe because you have those mvspd quints it feels better with cc boots. As for me I'm basically playing shen without runes. I can put my ign here if you want to see for youself but I'm speaking honestly here. I have only 2 teir 3 runes lol. But umm as for dead end items yeah they are however I find it wierd that despite them being dead end items I can't get enough farm to actually have access gold, most games I hardly have the build completed and I'm 2/4/19 with the enemy nexus destoryed. Oh well all I can say is try it yourself becuase it works for me! almost every person I have beaten had full teir 3 runes so it goes to show it's got some merit...if you don't think so if you need me to prove anything at all I wouldn't mind playing a game or two with you to prove it... Hi I'm 5HITCOMBO and I was platinum S1. A) You're in 900 Elo ranked. Everyone in every single one of your games is worse than any player I have ever played with. If your K/D/A isn't high you're incredibly stupid because people at this Elo couldn't beat me 1v5. B) Builds don't have to be good or make sense at your level because your normal Elo and ranked Elo are both incredibly low. I could build crit chance rammus and I'd still basically never die. 900 Elo is people who have a mildly hard time against bots. C) Holy shit the build we're talking about is bad. D) We're not judging you as a person. We're trying to keep our forum clean. We don't want advice from 900 Elo players on how to play like a 900 Elo in a forum that has discussions between players who have been #1 on the ladder and play in high-profile cash prize events. This is a competitive forum. We are not insulting you when we say you really need to improve your thought process, we're being real. You're not on the level where you should be telling people what to build on any champ. You can change that, sure, but prove it to us first. Idk, I'd like to see you 1v5 900 ELO ranked. If you can't win 100% of the time, I'd say everything else in your post is also invalid.
i don't see how that invalidates anything else he said...
but it wouldn't matter. i've seen 5hit's cho 1v5 at plat level. i've seen high elo player smurfs 1v5 with AD annie at 900 elo. but that's totally not on topic of the thread or even the discussion
the point 5hit and others are trying to make here is this: if you're giving advice, it's because you want someone *worse* than you to be able to get better. you're not trying to get high elo players to use your build (unless you're high elo yourself, like navi/smash's guides!), because if high elo players could win with your build, you would be a high elo player. you need to look at your own skill level before giving said advice, because if you are 900 elo, who are you really helping with that advice? a small fraction of players. notice how none of the posts in this topic are highlighted with big yellow text that says "2100 elo player" anywhere? so if you post advice from the perspective of a low-leveled player, it's not differentiated from the advice of a high-leveled player. so someone who might be a mid-level player might see both your post and another post and think they are equally valid - when we've already established that any build you post is going to be viable at your level and under. so they will be lowering their own level of play by following your build, which defeats the purpose of such threads
likewise, you should be aware that if your build is really that effective, you will see your elo rise when you play that champ and use that build. granted, people do have bad luck but even if we fudge your luck to say you've lost 300 elo due to bad teammates/leavers/ragers/trolls, that still only puts you at 1200 elo. can you see yourself playing nothing but C+D and swifties shen, and getting to 2200 elo? 1900? 1700? even 1400? if not, it's better to just listen to what the more experienced and more highly rated players have to say, use their builds and adapt them to what suits your playstyle best (i.e. maybe swifties DO just work for how you play, and that's fine, but it's definitely not optimal and definitely not popular), and ask them questions, rather than posting your own build and arguing over it, shitting up the thread
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If you switch Swifties for Mercs your build will improve. Also, it's not your job to chase, if you chase you are not protecting your carries. With Shen you should be taunting the guys trying to kill your carries and support dpsing them. If you are able to taunt their carries by all means do it but don't chase them around the map after that, protect your team.
You buy C&D for better farming, that doesn't help. Try Wriggles, you get farm capacity and the lifesteal you like to get all in one. Plus armor and AD.
You are asking people here to try your build, you should lead by example and try the things people are suggesting here, I guarantee you will see an improvement in your Shen.
What is your summoner name?
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On December 28 2011 16:39 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 14:59 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On December 28 2011 10:57 Psycho{Szerano wrote:
Oh funny thing, I don't have JACK when it comes to runes, I like have all teir 1 and I use this build and still win with a impressive k/d/a so maybe because you have those mvspd quints it feels better with cc boots. As for me I'm basically playing shen without runes. I can put my ign here if you want to see for youself but I'm speaking honestly here. I have only 2 teir 3 runes lol. But umm as for dead end items yeah they are however I find it wierd that despite them being dead end items I can't get enough farm to actually have access gold, most games I hardly have the build completed and I'm 2/4/19 with the enemy nexus destoryed. Oh well all I can say is try it yourself becuase it works for me! almost every person I have beaten had full teir 3 runes so it goes to show it's got some merit...if you don't think so if you need me to prove anything at all I wouldn't mind playing a game or two with you to prove it... Hi I'm 5HITCOMBO and I was platinum S1. A) You're in 900 Elo ranked. Everyone in every single one of your games is worse than any player I have ever played with. If your K/D/A isn't high you're incredibly stupid because people at this Elo couldn't beat me 1v5. B) Builds don't have to be good or make sense at your level because your normal Elo and ranked Elo are both incredibly low. I could build crit chance rammus and I'd still basically never die. 900 Elo is people who have a mildly hard time against bots. C) Holy shit the build we're talking about is bad. D) We're not judging you as a person. We're trying to keep our forum clean. We don't want advice from 900 Elo players on how to play like a 900 Elo in a forum that has discussions between players who have been #1 on the ladder and play in high-profile cash prize events. This is a competitive forum. We are not insulting you when we say you really need to improve your thought process, we're being real. You're not on the level where you should be telling people what to build on any champ. You can change that, sure, but prove it to us first. Idk, I'd like to see you 1v5 900 ELO ranked. If you can't win 100% of the time, I'd say everything else in your post is also invalid.
Find me a team of 900s and I'm up for the challenge, no joke.
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On December 28 2011 18:35 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 16:39 Zdrastochye wrote:On December 28 2011 14:59 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On December 28 2011 10:57 Psycho{Szerano wrote:
Oh funny thing, I don't have JACK when it comes to runes, I like have all teir 1 and I use this build and still win with a impressive k/d/a so maybe because you have those mvspd quints it feels better with cc boots. As for me I'm basically playing shen without runes. I can put my ign here if you want to see for youself but I'm speaking honestly here. I have only 2 teir 3 runes lol. But umm as for dead end items yeah they are however I find it wierd that despite them being dead end items I can't get enough farm to actually have access gold, most games I hardly have the build completed and I'm 2/4/19 with the enemy nexus destoryed. Oh well all I can say is try it yourself becuase it works for me! almost every person I have beaten had full teir 3 runes so it goes to show it's got some merit...if you don't think so if you need me to prove anything at all I wouldn't mind playing a game or two with you to prove it... Hi I'm 5HITCOMBO and I was platinum S1. A) You're in 900 Elo ranked. Everyone in every single one of your games is worse than any player I have ever played with. If your K/D/A isn't high you're incredibly stupid because people at this Elo couldn't beat me 1v5. B) Builds don't have to be good or make sense at your level because your normal Elo and ranked Elo are both incredibly low. I could build crit chance rammus and I'd still basically never die. 900 Elo is people who have a mildly hard time against bots. C) Holy shit the build we're talking about is bad. D) We're not judging you as a person. We're trying to keep our forum clean. We don't want advice from 900 Elo players on how to play like a 900 Elo in a forum that has discussions between players who have been #1 on the ladder and play in high-profile cash prize events. This is a competitive forum. We are not insulting you when we say you really need to improve your thought process, we're being real. You're not on the level where you should be telling people what to build on any champ. You can change that, sure, but prove it to us first. Idk, I'd like to see you 1v5 900 ELO ranked. If you can't win 100% of the time, I'd say everything else in your post is also invalid. Find me a team of 900s and I'm up for the challenge, no joke.
Can they be silvers like me? :D
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On December 28 2011 16:39 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 14:59 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On December 28 2011 10:57 Psycho{Szerano wrote:
Oh funny thing, I don't have JACK when it comes to runes, I like have all teir 1 and I use this build and still win with a impressive k/d/a so maybe because you have those mvspd quints it feels better with cc boots. As for me I'm basically playing shen without runes. I can put my ign here if you want to see for youself but I'm speaking honestly here. I have only 2 teir 3 runes lol. But umm as for dead end items yeah they are however I find it wierd that despite them being dead end items I can't get enough farm to actually have access gold, most games I hardly have the build completed and I'm 2/4/19 with the enemy nexus destoryed. Oh well all I can say is try it yourself becuase it works for me! almost every person I have beaten had full teir 3 runes so it goes to show it's got some merit...if you don't think so if you need me to prove anything at all I wouldn't mind playing a game or two with you to prove it... Hi I'm 5HITCOMBO and I was platinum S1. A) You're in 900 Elo ranked. Everyone in every single one of your games is worse than any player I have ever played with. If your K/D/A isn't high you're incredibly stupid because people at this Elo couldn't beat me 1v5. B) Builds don't have to be good or make sense at your level because your normal Elo and ranked Elo are both incredibly low. I could build crit chance rammus and I'd still basically never die. 900 Elo is people who have a mildly hard time against bots. C) Holy shit the build we're talking about is bad. D) We're not judging you as a person. We're trying to keep our forum clean. We don't want advice from 900 Elo players on how to play like a 900 Elo in a forum that has discussions between players who have been #1 on the ladder and play in high-profile cash prize events. This is a competitive forum. We are not insulting you when we say you really need to improve your thought process, we're being real. You're not on the level where you should be telling people what to build on any champ. You can change that, sure, but prove it to us first. Idk, I'd like to see you 1v5 900 ELO ranked. If you can't win 100% of the time, I'd say everything else in your post is also invalid.
And this is why Logic 101 should be a mandatory class in college
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On December 28 2011 18:35 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 16:39 Zdrastochye wrote:On December 28 2011 14:59 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On December 28 2011 10:57 Psycho{Szerano wrote:
Oh funny thing, I don't have JACK when it comes to runes, I like have all teir 1 and I use this build and still win with a impressive k/d/a so maybe because you have those mvspd quints it feels better with cc boots. As for me I'm basically playing shen without runes. I can put my ign here if you want to see for youself but I'm speaking honestly here. I have only 2 teir 3 runes lol. But umm as for dead end items yeah they are however I find it wierd that despite them being dead end items I can't get enough farm to actually have access gold, most games I hardly have the build completed and I'm 2/4/19 with the enemy nexus destoryed. Oh well all I can say is try it yourself becuase it works for me! almost every person I have beaten had full teir 3 runes so it goes to show it's got some merit...if you don't think so if you need me to prove anything at all I wouldn't mind playing a game or two with you to prove it... Hi I'm 5HITCOMBO and I was platinum S1. A) You're in 900 Elo ranked. Everyone in every single one of your games is worse than any player I have ever played with. If your K/D/A isn't high you're incredibly stupid because people at this Elo couldn't beat me 1v5. B) Builds don't have to be good or make sense at your level because your normal Elo and ranked Elo are both incredibly low. I could build crit chance rammus and I'd still basically never die. 900 Elo is people who have a mildly hard time against bots. C) Holy shit the build we're talking about is bad. D) We're not judging you as a person. We're trying to keep our forum clean. We don't want advice from 900 Elo players on how to play like a 900 Elo in a forum that has discussions between players who have been #1 on the ladder and play in high-profile cash prize events. This is a competitive forum. We are not insulting you when we say you really need to improve your thought process, we're being real. You're not on the level where you should be telling people what to build on any champ. You can change that, sure, but prove it to us first. Idk, I'd like to see you 1v5 900 ELO ranked. If you can't win 100% of the time, I'd say everything else in your post is also invalid. Find me a team of 900s and I'm up for the challenge, no joke.
LoL I wanna see this - please make this happen!
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On December 28 2011 19:11 FieryBalrog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 16:39 Zdrastochye wrote:On December 28 2011 14:59 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On December 28 2011 10:57 Psycho{Szerano wrote:
Oh funny thing, I don't have JACK when it comes to runes, I like have all teir 1 and I use this build and still win with a impressive k/d/a so maybe because you have those mvspd quints it feels better with cc boots. As for me I'm basically playing shen without runes. I can put my ign here if you want to see for youself but I'm speaking honestly here. I have only 2 teir 3 runes lol. But umm as for dead end items yeah they are however I find it wierd that despite them being dead end items I can't get enough farm to actually have access gold, most games I hardly have the build completed and I'm 2/4/19 with the enemy nexus destoryed. Oh well all I can say is try it yourself becuase it works for me! almost every person I have beaten had full teir 3 runes so it goes to show it's got some merit...if you don't think so if you need me to prove anything at all I wouldn't mind playing a game or two with you to prove it... Hi I'm 5HITCOMBO and I was platinum S1. A) You're in 900 Elo ranked. Everyone in every single one of your games is worse than any player I have ever played with. If your K/D/A isn't high you're incredibly stupid because people at this Elo couldn't beat me 1v5. B) Builds don't have to be good or make sense at your level because your normal Elo and ranked Elo are both incredibly low. I could build crit chance rammus and I'd still basically never die. 900 Elo is people who have a mildly hard time against bots. C) Holy shit the build we're talking about is bad. D) We're not judging you as a person. We're trying to keep our forum clean. We don't want advice from 900 Elo players on how to play like a 900 Elo in a forum that has discussions between players who have been #1 on the ladder and play in high-profile cash prize events. This is a competitive forum. We are not insulting you when we say you really need to improve your thought process, we're being real. You're not on the level where you should be telling people what to build on any champ. You can change that, sure, but prove it to us first. Idk, I'd like to see you 1v5 900 ELO ranked. If you can't win 100% of the time, I'd say everything else in your post is also invalid. And this is why Logic 101 should be a mandatory class in college
I was actually joking, calm down.
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brb force dropping my elo down to 900 to play 5hit.
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Bit late to the party here but the PBE Shen buffs look insane.
2% max hp per hit on Q is basically Gargas passive
W is meh although when you taunt armor helps a bit.
E is needed
Passive is straight up 50% damage buff and minion reduction -> even stronger top when Shen is already not bad top and perhaps okish jungle?
I guess Q hp regen will be cut a bit to maybe 1~1.5%? and passive to maybe 10%? Havn't been to PBE to test it out, too lazy to download the client. Has anybody here tried PBE Shen? How is he in jungle/top?
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Its 2% max HP of the target, so it isnt as good on minions
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shen still won't be able to jungle because health in the jungle was never his problem. it was the fact that his first clear takes 9 minutes, he has no aoe and no damage...
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On December 29 2011 04:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Its 2% max HP of the target, so it isnt as good on minions
The patch notes say 2% of attackers max health.
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I tried shen in new jungle. OMG he's horrendously bad in it >.> What was I thinking???
His lane isn't that great either. I did okay solo top with him, but overall lost my lane (less cs than the other dude, but was able to go 0/0 with him). I could see shen being a more viable bot support, but even then I rather have a full on support like sona/janna/soraka with ad carry, than I would with shen.
Just played for free week, not a shen expert or anything. Just my 2 cents.
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He's not that bad, you were probably just playing bad. Dan dinh plays him jungle every so often and it's not that terrible. I have solid results with it too. His gank is ferocious and unwardable. You tell one of the lanes to go way far forward and cut off the enemy and then port in behind them for easy taunt.
He can't be played support at all, he needs items for durability. Taunt not so good when they kill you first anyway in 2 seconds. Plus it's a bad use of his ult, can't just leave the ad 2v1, and if you use it on the ad you are wasting the tele.
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On December 29 2011 07:07 wei2coolman wrote:
I tried shen in new jungle. OMG he's horrendously bad in it >.> What was I thinking???
His lane isn't that great either. I did okay solo top with him, but overall lost my lane (less cs than the other dude, but was able to go 0/0 with him). I could see shen being a more viable bot support, but even then I rather have a full on support like sona/janna/soraka with ad carry, than I would with shen.
Just played for free week, not a shen expert or anything. Just my 2 cents.
He needs to much farm to be played as support. His jungle is pretty darn slow so he's not great in jungle either, but his ganks are quite good. Solo top Shen does pretty well cause q harass is basically free and q+ki strike is good burst and his q sustain isn't terrible. His biggest problem ATM is dropping off and becoming an ult/taunt bot cause his damage is pretty crappy and his taunt is so expensive u basically can only use it once in fights and maybe a second time to run or clean up
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So one of shen's flaws is the fact that he has difficulty shoving a lane on-demand - so, with that in mind how does Ionic Spark sound on him? (when it is added to SR) The HP helps his passive and new vorpal healing.
Other than that, it basically functions like a Wits End with a different defensive stat and different damage mechanic. Thoughts?
Edit: took out an incorrect thing I said about his buffs.
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On December 31 2011 08:37 sylverfyre wrote:
So one of shen's flaws is the fact that he has difficulty shoving a lane on-demand - so, with that in mind how does Ionic Spark sound on him? (when it is added to SR) The HP helps his passive, and if they buff his passive the way they claim they will (autoattacks lower the time til next passive proc) then the +AS will be a reasonable stat on him too. Other than that, it basically functions like a Wits End with a different defensive stat and different damage mechanic. Thoughts?
Where does it say autoattacks will lower passive cd? All I've seen on PBE/forum notes was that minion attacks will also reduce cd by 0.5 sec per hit, not just champ attacks.
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On December 31 2011 08:41 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2011 08:37 sylverfyre wrote:
So one of shen's flaws is the fact that he has difficulty shoving a lane on-demand - so, with that in mind how does Ionic Spark sound on him? (when it is added to SR) The HP helps his passive, and if they buff his passive the way they claim they will (autoattacks lower the time til next passive proc) then the +AS will be a reasonable stat on him too. Other than that, it basically functions like a Wits End with a different defensive stat and different damage mechanic. Thoughts? Where does it say autoattacks will lower passive cd? All I've seen on PBE/forum notes was that minion attacks will also reduce cd by 0.5 sec per hit, not just champ attacks.
yeah AA doesn't reduce cd in the patch notes, but AS will still be a good stat on shen because of the 2% health per hit from his buffed Q
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On December 31 2011 09:40 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2011 08:41 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 31 2011 08:37 sylverfyre wrote:
So one of shen's flaws is the fact that he has difficulty shoving a lane on-demand - so, with that in mind how does Ionic Spark sound on him? (when it is added to SR) The HP helps his passive, and if they buff his passive the way they claim they will (autoattacks lower the time til next passive proc) then the +AS will be a reasonable stat on him too. Other than that, it basically functions like a Wits End with a different defensive stat and different damage mechanic. Thoughts? Where does it say autoattacks will lower passive cd? All I've seen on PBE/forum notes was that minion attacks will also reduce cd by 0.5 sec per hit, not just champ attacks. AS will still be a good stat on shen because of the 2% health per hit from his buffed Q
Completely untrue. Q is a HOT effect. Multiple attacks just refresh the healing buff. You'll get more out of building more HP.
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Oh, I guess I misunderstood how they were buffing the passive.
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On December 31 2011 10:01 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2011 09:40 sob3k wrote:On December 31 2011 08:41 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 31 2011 08:37 sylverfyre wrote:
So one of shen's flaws is the fact that he has difficulty shoving a lane on-demand - so, with that in mind how does Ionic Spark sound on him? (when it is added to SR) The HP helps his passive, and if they buff his passive the way they claim they will (autoattacks lower the time til next passive proc) then the +AS will be a reasonable stat on him too. Other than that, it basically functions like a Wits End with a different defensive stat and different damage mechanic. Thoughts? Where does it say autoattacks will lower passive cd? All I've seen on PBE/forum notes was that minion attacks will also reduce cd by 0.5 sec per hit, not just champ attacks. AS will still be a good stat on shen because of the 2% health per hit from his buffed Q Completely untrue. Q is a HOT effect. Multiple attacks just refresh the healing buff. You'll get more out of building more HP.
In the proposed buffs it says per hit after the 2%, which seems to mean its actually per hit and not HOT like the other part of the skill.
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On December 29 2011 08:16 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 07:07 wei2coolman wrote:
I tried shen in new jungle. OMG he's horrendously bad in it >.> What was I thinking???
His lane isn't that great either. I did okay solo top with him, but overall lost my lane (less cs than the other dude, but was able to go 0/0 with him). I could see shen being a more viable bot support, but even then I rather have a full on support like sona/janna/soraka with ad carry, than I would with shen.
Just played for free week, not a shen expert or anything. Just my 2 cents. He needs to much farm to be played as support. His jungle is pretty darn slow so he's not great in jungle either, but his ganks are quite good. Solo top Shen does pretty well cause q harass is basically free and q+ki strike is good burst and his q sustain isn't terrible. His biggest problem ATM is dropping off and becoming an ult/taunt bot cause his damage is pretty crappy and his taunt is so expensive u basically can only use it once in fights and maybe a second time to run or clean up
It's not exactly that he 'needs' farm, it's just that with zero farm he does nothing and with lots of farm he does nothing + item effects
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I didn't even consider shen as a jungler. I just saw him as the bot that put shields on everyone and threw knives at me and towerdove me two times in a row with his taunt. Seems like he'd be able to jungle at a low summoner level with his Q though he wouldn't get many kills from his ganks.
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On December 31 2011 12:23 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 08:16 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 29 2011 07:07 wei2coolman wrote:
I tried shen in new jungle. OMG he's horrendously bad in it >.> What was I thinking???
His lane isn't that great either. I did okay solo top with him, but overall lost my lane (less cs than the other dude, but was able to go 0/0 with him). I could see shen being a more viable bot support, but even then I rather have a full on support like sona/janna/soraka with ad carry, than I would with shen.
Just played for free week, not a shen expert or anything. Just my 2 cents. He needs to much farm to be played as support. His jungle is pretty darn slow so he's not great in jungle either, but his ganks are quite good. Solo top Shen does pretty well cause q harass is basically free and q+ki strike is good burst and his q sustain isn't terrible. His biggest problem ATM is dropping off and becoming an ult/taunt bot cause his damage is pretty crappy and his taunt is so expensive u basically can only use it once in fights and maybe a second time to run or clean up It's not exactly that he 'needs' farm, it's just that with zero farm he does nothing and with lots of farm he does nothing + item effects
pffft. AP shen with rylais dcap actually does something. With like 400~ AP you shield with your ulti for ridiculous amounts it's like an AP soraka heal pre-nerf.
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It's a shame how much people tend to hate on Shen these days. I took a break a couple months ago, and before the break, I used to play Shen all the time because I thought he was still a solid champion.
I come back and the instant I pick Shen, I'm always trolling, or I'm obviously going to lose top lane against every single champion in the game. Shen is deceptively strong at top, and I honestly haven't flat out lost top once as Shen.
He does begin to fall off in terms of damage output towards the middle of the game, but his global presence is as strong as ever, even with the weak-ass ult shield. A team that can properly use that to their advantage has a huge advantage (and no, teleport is definitely much much weaker than Shen's ult, mainly because Shen's ult is up 2x more than teleport is).
I am looking forward to the Shen buffs, not because I think he really needs a ton of buffs, but mostly so people don't flip out and go retarded about the Shen pick, even when they clearly know nothing about the champion.
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Is there gonna be a Shen buff? or are you just speculating because of the negative reception he's getting?
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I'm currently saving to buy Shen and I'm going to play him as a permafarm toplane with a build of 5 warmogs, or maybe 4 warmogs and a fon, or perhaps 4 and atmas, or 3 and atmas and fon. I'm certain that build is going to be amazing. Might also go phage into warmogs into mallet
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On January 25 2012 08:41 Shikyo wrote:
I'm currently saving to buy Shen and I'm going to play him as a permafarm toplane with a build of 5 warmogs, or maybe 4 warmogs and a fon, or perhaps 4 and atmas, or 3 and atmas and fon. I'm certain that build is going to be amazing. Might also go phage into warmogs into mallet
kinda hard to permafarm when your most important ability/role forces you out of lane but gl
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On January 25 2012 01:28 Synthesis wrote:
It's a shame how much people tend to hate on Shen these days. I took a break a couple months ago, and before the break, I used to play Shen all the time because I thought he was still a solid champion.
I come back and the instant I pick Shen, I'm always trolling, or I'm obviously going to lose top lane against every single champion in the game. Shen is deceptively strong at top, and I honestly haven't flat out lost top once as Shen.
He does begin to fall off in terms of damage output towards the middle of the game, but his global presence is as strong as ever, even with the weak-ass ult shield. A team that can properly use that to their advantage has a huge advantage (and no, teleport is definitely much much weaker than Shen's ult, mainly because Shen's ult is up 2x more than teleport is).
I am looking forward to the Shen buffs, not because I think he really needs a ton of buffs, but mostly so people don't flip out and go retarded about the Shen pick, even when they clearly know nothing about the champion.
that's cuz they rebuffed his early game and didn't buff anything else about him
so his mid and late is still legendary garbage, they just fixed one thing about him.
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On January 25 2012 08:28 AngryFarmer wrote:
Is there gonna be a Shen buff? or are you just speculating because of the negative reception he's getting?
There was supposed to be Shen buffs this patch, but I guess they weren't confident enough in them yet to release them, but Shen is definitely currently being worked on.
On January 25 2012 10:47 UniversalSnip wrote:
that's cuz they rebuffed his early game and didn't buff anything else about him
so his mid and late is still legendary garbage, they just fixed one thing about him.
Honestly, I agree that he begins to fall off midgame and drops off pretty hard late game, especially in terms of damage, but I still believe he's not complete useless trash like everyone suggests because his ultimate is still global, is a decent shield, has a low cooldown, and he still has a taunt that can taunt multiple people at once. By lategame if you can just keep your carries alive, they'll do the rest for you.
I find Shen is one of those champions where he has a really strong start, and you might be able to snowball your team into a victory from there by forcing fights in your favour at buffs or dragon or in the jungle, or you'll just start to drop off (maybe like Panth?).
Maybe at high elo where games are closer and less mistakes are made, it's very difficult to play Shen well, but I'm currently at 1500-1600 and Shen has still been on occasion a pretty fantastic pick.
Either way, I'm looking forward to seeing the Shen buffs.
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On January 25 2012 08:53 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 08:41 Shikyo wrote:
I'm currently saving to buy Shen and I'm going to play him as a permafarm toplane with a build of 5 warmogs, or maybe 4 warmogs and a fon, or perhaps 4 and atmas, or 3 and atmas and fon. I'm certain that build is going to be amazing. Might also go phage into warmogs into mallet kinda hard to permafarm when your most important ability/role forces you out of lane but gl
screw saving allies, only when tp is up
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Thought I'd bump this thread for the recent patch.
ITS SHEN BABY.
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Including relevant patch notes help ya know
Shen
Ki Strike
Damage increased to 10-112 (+10% bonus Health) from 10-95 (+8% bonus Health)
Cooldown is now reduced by 1.5 seconds whenever Shen attacks instead of 2 seconds when being attacked
Now grants Shen 10/20/30 energy when he Ki Strikes
Damage now scale correctly with all sources of bonus Health (% health runes, Juggernaut mastery)
Added a buff timer for Ki Strike's cooldown (like Ziggs' Short Fuse)
Vorpal Blade
Energy cost adjusted to 60 from 70/65/60/55/50
Damage adjusted to 60/105/150/195/240 (+0.6 ability power) from 70/105/140/175/210 (+0.75 ability power)
Heal effect changed to 6/10/14/18/22 (+2% of Shen's maximum Health) from 18/26/34/42/50
If Vorpal Blade deals the killing blow, it will now trigger 33% of the heal effect for Shen
Allied damaging spells can now trigger the heal effect, in addition to attacks (Vorpal Blade cannot trigger itself)
Feint
Feint duration increased to 3 seconds from 2.5
Energy cost reduced to 40 from 45
Shield amount adjusted to 70/120/170/220/270 (+0.6 ability power) from 50/100/150/200/250 (+0.75 ability power)
While Feint is active, Ki Strike’s cooldown reduction on hit is increased to 3 seconds from 1.5
Shadow Dash
Cooldown reduced to 10/9.5/9/8.5/8 seconds from 10
Energy cost increased to 120 from 120/115/110/105/100
Restores 40 energy per champion affected (rather than a flat 50 energy if you affect one)
Now deals 50/85/120/155/190 damage (+0.5 ability power) to Champions
Taunt duration adjusted to 1.5 seconds from 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2
Shadow Dash now grants Shen 50% physical damage reduction from taunted targets
Stand United
Channel time increased to 3 seconds from 2.5
Shield duration reduced to 5 seconds from 7.5
Shield amount increased to 250/550/850 from 200/475/750
+ Show Spoiler +
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Ionic Spark becoming a useful item for someone? It's more likely than you think.
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God Shen is going to be so good now. New perma-ban incoming!
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Hmm, gonna play Shen again. With his new changes, attack speed would be super good on shen. Wit's end is probably core on him. Raduin's will always be core on Shen, it's just too good with his taunt on top of amazing Shen stats. Still sticking with merc treads for boots unless they got 3 autoattackers then go ninja tabi. What else should I build on Shen? I think Rylai, Abyssal, Warmogs, Aegis, Locket, Sunfire, Madreds are all decent items on Shen, but not sure what to get and when. Also, what do I start off with on Shen? I usually go null+pots vs AP lane, cloth+pots vs AD lane, not sure what to do vs non aggressive lane.
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null + pots for point+click APs
boots + pots for skillshot APs
cloth + pots for heavy harassers
boots + pots for melee only tops (eg GP don't count)
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If I decide to go Shen mid, I think I can take on a lot of enemies that simply cannot spare mana to harass. What might be some weak mid lane matchups for Shen? Ahri?
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Uhh I don't think I can see Shen mid. He gets pushed in so easy and his burst potential is not even close to panth's
aps don't need to waste mana on harass when they can farm creep waves uncontested. The lane is too short to zone and if you're too aggressive it's an easy gank because shen has to get so close to harass while the enemy ap has 700 range skills
although let's see... leblanc kass vlad orianna kat akali are all handle-able for shen imo eh I take back leblanc
and farmed shen vs farmed ap -.- you're going to need a consistent source of magic damage later in the game
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Seeing as shen might become a pretty big player in the top lane what are some champions that do well against him?
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On February 14 2012 21:54 FR4CT4L wrote:
Seeing as shen might become a pretty big player in the top lane what are some champions that do well against him?
as he is now, he really only loses (is not equal/ahead) vs champions that push faster or can easily outpoke him (negate Q spam or long range stuff helps). I think he is one of the strongest early gamers atm.
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On February 14 2012 23:43 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 21:54 FR4CT4L wrote:
Seeing as shen might become a pretty big player in the top lane what are some champions that do well against him? as he is now, he really only loses (is not equal/ahead) vs champions that push faster or can easily outpoke him (negate Q spam or long range stuff helps). I think he is one of the strongest early gamers atm.
Pantheon should be strong VS him early on, and has a semi-global ult as well...
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On February 14 2012 23:50 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 23:43 clickrush wrote:On February 14 2012 21:54 FR4CT4L wrote:
Seeing as shen might become a pretty big player in the top lane what are some champions that do well against him? as he is now, he really only loses (is not equal/ahead) vs champions that push faster or can easily outpoke him (negate Q spam or long range stuff helps). I think he is one of the strongest early gamers atm. Pantheon should be strong VS him early on, and has a semi-global ult as well...
Yeah, but pantheon relies on getting kills with ultimate, and shen prefers to have someone trying to do that, if anything shen coutners panth. And if you heard the great wisdom of drunk butters on vent, you'd understand how shen counters panth in lane.
"PICK SHEN, YOU JUST MAX SHIELD, SHIELD WHEN PANTHEON SPEARS, TOTAL COUNTER, HE CANT DO SHIT MAN, PANTHEON WILL RUN OUT OF MANA BEFORE SHEN DOES, SHEN DOESN'T EVEN HAVE MANA, JUST HARASS WITH Q BLOCK WITH W HE CANT DO SHIT MAN"
The shield buff means shens shield easily blocks the spears, and the q+auto hit with kt strike should out weight panth passive.
I'll accept challenge from anyone playing pantheon against new shen on EU server.I don't play shen that much but drunk butters wisdom guides me. (Ironically he was trying to prove why a counter thread is stupid it doesn't work in real games, turns out it was the most legit example that disproves his own argument)
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I assume with these buffs shen will rape a large number of toplanes. He allready was strong but now it is way easyer to be aggressive with him since both shield (indirectily) and taunt deal damage as well + the AD reduction on taunt will help shen to win about any shen vs bruiser trades. He will still push like a turtle though which is a huge disadvantage on the far away and long toplane.
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Wait, so W went from "never get this shit" to "max first every time"? Neat, is it just that Q's damage doesn't scale as well as W's shield or what?
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United States37500 Posts
Just went AD Shen vs an Irelia and it was rather hilar. Q + Ki, I would burst her more than she could heal off of W + pots.
Running AS Marks, TP/Flash for utility. 21 9 0
Shen's also a boss at farming under tower. In fact, I prefer it.
Edit: QEQWQR, R > Q > W > E
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On February 15 2012 01:05 Requizen wrote:
Wait, so W went from "never get this shit" to "max first every time"? Neat, is it just that Q's damage doesn't scale as well as W's shield or what?
nono I dont think you can really afford to max W over Q in a lot of matchups. I mean W helps against pokes and straight up engagements but if you dont pressure your opponent with strong Q spams then you wont get anywhere I think. The panth example is just very situational. I wouldnt do it vs riven for example. Also I doubt that you get more HP back with W in trades as you would with Q.
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On February 15 2012 01:05 Requizen wrote:
Wait, so W went from "never get this shit" to "max first every time"? Neat, is it just that Q's damage doesn't scale as well as W's shield or what?
I think pantheon is a pretty specific niche, but it's probably still good against similar harasses like GP. However, you don't need to max E any more so you're getting it reasonably fast.
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Slayer91 once said:
And if you heard the great wisdom of drunk butters on vent, you'd understand how shen counters panth in lane.
"PICK SHEN, YOU JUST MAX SHIELD, SHIELD WHEN PANTHEON SPEARS, TOTAL COUNTER, HE CANT DO SHIT MAN, PANTHEON WILL RUN OUT OF MANA BEFORE SHEN DOES, SHEN DOESN'T EVEN HAVE MANA, JUST HARASS WITH Q BLOCK WITH W HE CANT DO SHIT MAN"
The one time butters said he was going to troll and then everything he said from then onward kinda made sense.
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Has anyone tried Ionic Spark on him yet? Since he's scaling hard with HP/AS nowadays, it seems like a decent choice and also helps a bit with the fact that he has no AoE potential at all.
With Ruby opening, I'd think it might be a decent choice if you don't think you need Aegis right away, or want more damage for ganks.
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If it's for jungling, boots will always be better for ganks. If it's for laning, dorans shield if you really want the hp.
I think ionics not a great item. Why not just get hp and wits end honestly.
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Shen vs. Pantheon used to be close to even, now Shen will 100% hard counter Pantheon. Anyone arguing otherwise is a fool.
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I've played two games with Shen, both in the jungle. Ruby opening is excellent and I build it into a fast HoG and then grab an Ionic Spark for faster clears. It synergizes reeeeally well with his kit now and I would definitely recommend it. I feel like you need to grab Rylais as well for the slow on his Q since you don't have any other CC outside of his taunt. CD is too high and you're too energy starved to really be able to use it again in a gank. Other than that, Shen is really fucking strong now!
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On February 15 2012 02:42 Synystyr wrote:
I've played two games with Shen, both in the jungle. Ruby opening is excellent and I build it into a fast HoG and then grab an Ionic Spark for faster clears. It synergizes reeeeally well with his kit now and I would definitely recommend it. I feel like you need to grab Rylais as well for the slow on his Q since you don't have any other CC outside of his taunt. CD is too high and you're too energy starved to really be able to use it again in a gank. Other than that, Shen is really fucking strong now!
...orrrr you could buy mallet or trifroce, which actually makes sense, instead of shitty old rylai's. and ionic spark is still just really bad, I can't imagine a situation where I wouldn't rather have phage + recurve (which will turn into wit's end).
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wits end should be even stronger now on shen because he charges up ki strike now with it besides the heal from Q
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Woah EUW still down...
Edit: Totally wrong topic. I'm sorry.
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This OP desperately needs an update. Still recommends Sunfire and HoG stacking ...
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Why not do it yourself, or dictate it to someone? I'd like to see it as well, I think Shen's a very fun champ that I'd like to know more about.
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On February 15 2012 03:53 Mogwai wrote:This OP desperately needs an update. Still recommends Sunfire and HoG stacking ...
there was no point in updating it because shen was not a super viable pick
now it's been 6 months and i can't edit the OP anymore
i'm fine with someone else making a new guide
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So I just got my first shen game after the patch... and FUCK YEAH. He's back to his glory days, he gives no fucks about anything and just trucks people.
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geezus...OP was back when dorans were like 425 gold or smth lololol.
so what's go-to shen build now? boots3 into phage+recurve then build wits, atmogs, triforce?
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On February 15 2012 04:43 Ryuu314 wrote:
geezus...OP was back when dorans were like 425 gold or smth lololol.
so what's go-to shen build now? boots3 into phage+recurve then build wits, atmogs, triforce?
I feel like there should be an earlyish HoG in there somewhere. And a late-ish randuins.
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On February 15 2012 04:36 Dgiese wrote:
So I just got my first shen game after the patch... and FUCK YEAH. He's back to his glory days, he gives no fucks about anything and just trucks people.
This is the best Valentine's Day present ever!
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I'd have to disagree strongly with that assertion. But buffed Shen is fun to play nonetheless.
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United States37500 Posts
On February 15 2012 05:00 omgbnetsux wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 04:36 Dgiese wrote:
So I just got my first shen game after the patch... and FUCK YEAH. He's back to his glory days, he gives no fucks about anything and just trucks people. This is the best Valentine's Day present ever!
omghiomgbnetsux!
Long time no see. :3
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Hmmm... I wonder if I'm dyslexic, I first read his name as 'omgbutsex'.... either that or I've got some dormant sexuality issues i need to work on.
Anyway, on Shen, it doesn't feel like he needs ionic spark, wits end, Q and ki strike are actually pretty damn quick at clearing waves. Add in the fact that W reduces ki strike's CD even further, and I don't really think Ionic spark has much place on him.
Admittedly, I haven't tried it on him yet, but it seems like a waste of money when you look at the other things you could be getting on him.
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United States37500 Posts
Played another game with Shen just now. Vs Naut with an enemy Shaco jungle. Because of Red Shaco, who tried to gank twice in 3 minutes into game no less, I had to play safe (Level 2 Dash + Flash = no deaths). But didn't stop me from farming up a storm.
The best thing I like about Shen's laning is the fact that you still life steal if you use Q to last hit. That is amazing sustain while farming at tower or even last hitting melee minions while you're being zoned.
Skipped Wriggle's, went HoG, Aegis, Randuin's.
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On February 15 2012 09:26 NeoIllusions wrote:
Played another game with Shen just now. Vs Naut with an enemy Shaco jungle. Because of Red Shaco, who tried to gank twice in 3 minutes into game no less, I had to play safe (Level 2 Dash + Flash = no deaths). But didn't stop me from farming up a storm.
The best thing I like about Shen's laning is the fact that you still life steal if you use Q to last hit. That is amazing sustain while farming at tower or even last hitting melee minions while you're being zoned.
Skipped Wriggle's, went HoG, Aegis, Randuin's.
no attack speed? wits end looked real broken on SV stream
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just pointing this out, but i got wrecked earlier by an AP shen, and realized that he was bursting me for 700+ damage with vorpal + dash combo pretty regularly. Our top lane was a disaster tho, 0-11 ww (he randomed since he got the champ bug) so it's hard to tell whether it was due to snowball or whether AP is actually now pretty strong on shen.
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On February 15 2012 10:16 barbsq wrote:
just pointing this out, but i got wrecked earlier by an AP shen, and realized that he was bursting me for 700+ damage with vorpal + dash combo pretty regularly. Our top lane was a disaster tho, 0-11 ww (he randomed since he got the champ bug) so it's hard to tell whether it was due to snowball or whether AP is actually now pretty strong on shen.
i'd imagine AP is weaker now considering how his ratios were all nerfed across teh board. with the exception of his dash now doing damage, but I guess that might contribute to why AP seems stronger...
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United States37500 Posts
On February 15 2012 09:40 Senx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 09:26 NeoIllusions wrote:
Played another game with Shen just now. Vs Naut with an enemy Shaco jungle. Because of Red Shaco, who tried to gank twice in 3 minutes into game no less, I had to play safe (Level 2 Dash + Flash = no deaths). But didn't stop me from farming up a storm.
The best thing I like about Shen's laning is the fact that you still life steal if you use Q to last hit. That is amazing sustain while farming at tower or even last hitting melee minions while you're being zoned.
Skipped Wriggle's, went HoG, Aegis, Randuin's. no attack speed? wits end looked real broken on SV stream
Mercs + Aegis was enough MR vs Naut. I haven't tried Wit's on him yet. I told Smash I'd try out Trinity Shen first, so it's on my agenda.
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On February 15 2012 10:21 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 10:16 barbsq wrote:
just pointing this out, but i got wrecked earlier by an AP shen, and realized that he was bursting me for 700+ damage with vorpal + dash combo pretty regularly. Our top lane was a disaster tho, 0-11 ww (he randomed since he got the champ bug) so it's hard to tell whether it was due to snowball or whether AP is actually now pretty strong on shen. i'd imagine AP is weaker now considering how his ratios were all nerfed across teh board. with the exception of his dash now doing damage, but I guess that might contribute to why AP seems stronger...
Nerfed across the board, but it adds up to higher ratio's on his damage, courtesy of dash (as u mentioned). he's now got 1.2 ap scaling on damage, instead of 0.7 or something.
checked numbers .75 -> 1.1 on dmg.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 15 2012 12:17 Dgiese wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 10:21 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 15 2012 10:16 barbsq wrote:
just pointing this out, but i got wrecked earlier by an AP shen, and realized that he was bursting me for 700+ damage with vorpal + dash combo pretty regularly. Our top lane was a disaster tho, 0-11 ww (he randomed since he got the champ bug) so it's hard to tell whether it was due to snowball or whether AP is actually now pretty strong on shen. i'd imagine AP is weaker now considering how his ratios were all nerfed across teh board. with the exception of his dash now doing damage, but I guess that might contribute to why AP seems stronger... Nerfed across the board, but it adds up to higher ratio's on his damage, courtesy of dash (as u mentioned). he's now got 1.2 ap scaling on damage, instead of 0.7 or something. checked numbers .75 -> 1.1 on dmg.
You're summing the ratio of 1 Vorpal + 1 Dash. That's not accounting for how the CD is longer, and how more energy-restrictive Dash is, particularly in small skirmishes where you won't land multi-target Dashes.
You throw many more Vorpals in a fight than you do Dashes.
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On February 15 2012 12:45 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 12:17 Dgiese wrote:On February 15 2012 10:21 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 15 2012 10:16 barbsq wrote:
just pointing this out, but i got wrecked earlier by an AP shen, and realized that he was bursting me for 700+ damage with vorpal + dash combo pretty regularly. Our top lane was a disaster tho, 0-11 ww (he randomed since he got the champ bug) so it's hard to tell whether it was due to snowball or whether AP is actually now pretty strong on shen. i'd imagine AP is weaker now considering how his ratios were all nerfed across teh board. with the exception of his dash now doing damage, but I guess that might contribute to why AP seems stronger... Nerfed across the board, but it adds up to higher ratio's on his damage, courtesy of dash (as u mentioned). he's now got 1.2 ap scaling on damage, instead of 0.7 or something. checked numbers .75 -> 1.1 on dmg. You're summing the ratio of 1 Vorpal + 1 Dash. That's not accounting for how the CD is longer, and how more energy-restrictive Dash is, particularly in small skirmishes where you won't land multi-target Dashes. You throw many more Vorpals in a fight than you do Dashes.
Cooldown on Dash was reduced, and on vorpal it wasn't changed? And dash energy return was changed to 40x instead of flat 50, so even if u just dash 1 person thats a tiny nerf.
Yes you will be throwing more vorpals, but I still feel like it's an AP Shen buff.
Not that it really matters though, cause other builds just seem better.
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Non-Shen player here, does he lose to any top lanes now?
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On February 15 2012 13:20 ManyCookies wrote:
Non-Shen player here, does he lose to any top lanes now?
I think he lose to Warwick but that is about it.
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On February 15 2012 13:13 Dgiese wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 12:45 TheYango wrote:On February 15 2012 12:17 Dgiese wrote:On February 15 2012 10:21 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 15 2012 10:16 barbsq wrote:
just pointing this out, but i got wrecked earlier by an AP shen, and realized that he was bursting me for 700+ damage with vorpal + dash combo pretty regularly. Our top lane was a disaster tho, 0-11 ww (he randomed since he got the champ bug) so it's hard to tell whether it was due to snowball or whether AP is actually now pretty strong on shen. i'd imagine AP is weaker now considering how his ratios were all nerfed across teh board. with the exception of his dash now doing damage, but I guess that might contribute to why AP seems stronger... Nerfed across the board, but it adds up to higher ratio's on his damage, courtesy of dash (as u mentioned). he's now got 1.2 ap scaling on damage, instead of 0.7 or something. checked numbers .75 -> 1.1 on dmg. You're summing the ratio of 1 Vorpal + 1 Dash. That's not accounting for how the CD is longer, and how more energy-restrictive Dash is, particularly in small skirmishes where you won't land multi-target Dashes. You throw many more Vorpals in a fight than you do Dashes. Cooldown on Dash was reduced, and on vorpal it wasn't changed? And dash energy return was changed to 40x instead of flat 50, so even if u just dash 1 person thats a tiny nerf. Yes you will be throwing more vorpals, but I still feel like it's an AP Shen buff. Not that it really matters though, cause other builds just seem better.
Nah it's a huge AP shen nerf, no one even cares about the dmg E does and his W ratio got lowered as well
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Yeah but the things that did get lowered barely got lowered. and I feel like the reduction on vorpal when feint is up is even a buff in that regards.
I don't see how getting what is essentially a second spell to do damage with is a nerf.
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On February 15 2012 13:27 warscythes wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 13:20 ManyCookies wrote:
Non-Shen player here, does he lose to any top lanes now? I think he lose to Warwick but that is about it.
That was my experience, I got mucked by a Warwick.
I might just be a bad Shen though, I also lost to Volibear.
How are you supposed to play this guy? I was going stuff like Boots3 -> HoG -> Wit's -> Phage, I never really felt strong in lane.
Q max? It never feels like it hits hard enough, the harass is ignorable by most sustainers (eventually anyways). I also feel very limited in skill usage, it's crazy how energy-starved he is compared to all the other ninjas. A whiffed Dash is completely crippling.
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On February 15 2012 14:19 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 13:27 warscythes wrote:On February 15 2012 13:20 ManyCookies wrote:
Non-Shen player here, does he lose to any top lanes now? I think he lose to Warwick but that is about it. That was my experience, I got mucked by a Warwick. I might just be a bad Shen though, I also lost to Volibear. How are you supposed to play this guy? I was going stuff like Boots3 -> HoG -> Wit's -> Phage, I never really felt strong in lane. Q max? It never feels like it hits hard enough, the harass is ignorable by most sustainers (eventually anyways). I also feel very limited in skill usage, it's crazy how energy-starved he is compared to all the other ninjas. A whiffed Dash is completely crippling.
Q is essentially free, you get to spam it which is why the damage has to be that low, although 240 is actually pretty high when it has no cost. You really shouldn't whiff shadow dash considering it is fairly simple to land it on a target.
The new Shen has one thing that is broken which you can abuse and that is his feint/ki strike. You just spam Q at the other guy and when you have an opportunity, shadow dash + ki strike + feint + vorpal blade, right click twice and another ki strike should pop up. They can't really deal with it. If they fight you they lose if they retreat then you zone them.
You lose to WW because his Q hits harder and heals more and you can't 1v1 a Warwick. Volibear can be spammed down with Q eventually.
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I just lost a lane to a riven, but it was kinda derpy cause of the low level action top. Kept getting 2/3 for 1s, but I was always the 1, so I ended up under leveled, but with a fed Kass, so we won. Not sure how the lane's supposed to go, but Riven's numbers are bullshit enough that i could believe she wins the lane.
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Haha, seeing so many Shens rush Belt->Warmog's with like an Aegis for resists and just rape face anyway because of how absurd Shen is.
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On February 15 2012 15:23 Mogwai wrote:
I just lost a lane to a riven, but it was kinda derpy cause of the low level action top. Kept getting 2/3 for 1s, but I was always the 1, so I ended up under leveled, but with a fed Kass, so we won. Not sure how the lane's supposed to go, but Riven's numbers are bullshit enough that i could believe she wins the lane.
riven lost to the lane pre-nerf riven and pre-buff shen, so it was probably just a bad game
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as I said, i ended up underleveled because of the early teamfights, but ultimately it was fine cause fed kass is pretty cool. she was maxing shield and it felt pretty obnoxious. Couldn't really dent her with harass and her damage was higher in committed fights. Meh, w/e, I'll wait till i see it again, being underleveled really changes the dynamic of nuke vs. shield harass.
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anyone know how the jungle/minion wave dps compares between wriggle's and ionic spark on shen? i feel like i need extra farming power after HoG + boots and it's really tempting to skip wriggle's because he doesn't seem to need the lifesteal at all.
on the other hand ionic spark has seemed really underwhelming whenever i've gotten it and there's something to be said for farming yourself back to full health after a fight with vorpal + wriggle's.
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if you want to dodge wriggle's, just get recurve -> phage and build recurve into wit's later. ionic is just bad.
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Oh hey, what's the better early/mid game armor item for Shen would you say? I feel like the CDR on Glacial is nice, but the MR is wasted. Just Warden's and build toward's Randuin's, or is Aegis enough Armor?
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On February 15 2012 15:37 Requizen wrote:
Oh hey, what's the better early/mid game armor item for Shen would you say? I feel like the CDR on Glacial is nice, but the MR is wasted. Just Warden's and build toward's Randuin's, or is Aegis enough Armor?
Aegis is best early/mid game survivability item. gives you everything. warden's mail can be good too since you should be getting an early hog and randuins is a must for late game against fed/farmed ad carries.
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On February 15 2012 15:37 Requizen wrote:
Oh hey, what's the better early/mid game armor item for Shen would you say? I feel like the CDR on Glacial is nice, but the MR is wasted. Just Warden's and build toward's Randuin's, or is Aegis enough Armor?
Randuins is the best option most likely, however although people hate on it, Sunfire cape deserves a mention in my opinion as it gives everything you like as Shen even though its passive is kind of poop.
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Randuins is core on shen IMO, with the taunt he procs its AS slow all the time and he's always in the middle of everything to use the active to full effect.
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So is the general consensus that Shen is broken or did we get ninjaed by something new and we need to adjust/recover from it before considering any nerfs?
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On February 15 2012 16:18 Shiragaku wrote:
So is the general consensus that Shen is broken or did we get ninjaed by something new and we need to adjust/recover from it before considering any nerfs?
As far as I consider Shen is not as overpowered as I thought he would be but he is still pretty overpowered. Not hotfix worthy but I will be VERY VERY surprised if he is not nerfed the next patch.
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So how do you guys think that Shen should be built??
I was thinking of nashors tooth for the AS (for the passive procing faster)/CDR/AP, rabadon for ap obviously, warmogs, ionian or ninja tabi shoes,two defensive/offensive item (maybe abyssal scepter for ap heavy team or randuin for ad etc...)
What do you think? I understand the build is quite expensive but i think it could work. I like the hybrid due to the fact that I can still achieve 4k hp (although I suffer not buying resistance item like armour or MR) and still playing as a support type (my ultimate can shield 1k+ about). Also what do you think of buying energy regen runes (so I can spam taunt more with CDR)
He seems REALLY strong. Like on the border of OP and perfectly balanced. However I can see his vorpal going down in dmg...
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On February 15 2012 17:39 heroyi wrote:
So how do you guys think that Shen should be built??
I was thinking of nashors tooth for the AS (for the passive procing faster)/CDR/AP, rabadon for ap obviously, warmogs, ionian or ninja tabi shoes,two defensive/offensive item (maybe abyssal scepter for ap heavy team or randuin for ad etc...)
What do you think? I understand the build is quite expensive but i think it could work. I like the hybrid due to the fact that I can still achieve 4k hp (although I suffer not buying resistance item like armour or MR) and still playing as a support type (my ultimate can shield 1k+ about). Also what do you think of buying energy regen runes (so I can spam taunt more with CDR)
He seems REALLY strong. Like on the border of OP and perfectly balanced. However I can see his vorpal going down in dmg...
Shen doesn't need AP at all to do damage. The scaling on his Ki strike is ridiculous and you're better off itemizing for that. Nashors tooth is still a noob trap imo and ionic spark isn't very good either. Wit's end gives you plenty of attack speed and also gives you the necessary tankiness. Atmogs can be really solid on him since it scales well with his passive, but can be a bitch to farm. Phage->triforce or phage->mallet can be really good too.
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So I feel like Kennen probably a bad matchup for Shen, his auto-attack range larger than vorpal although once I got wits it was going much better, still dunno what I could have done. Won the lane anyway because I had my Nautilus camping the shit out of him.
In general though I've been opening boots or cloth and rushing wriggles into Phage --> Wits ---> Mallet/Aegis
Theoretical full build being something like Wriggles/Mercs(or tabi)/Wits/Mallet/Aegis/Atmas
Still experimenting though. Fun to be playing Shen again, getting lots of compliments on Scorpion Shen Skin ^_^
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United States37500 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:03 Lancer723 wrote:
So I feel like Kennen probably a bad matchup for Shen, his auto-attack range larger than vorpal although once I got wits it was going much better, still dunno what I could have done. Won the lane anyway because I had my Nautilus camping the shit out of him.
In general though I've been opening boots or cloth and rushing wriggles into Phage --> Wits ---> Mallet/Aegis
Theoretical full build being something like Wriggles/Mercs(or tabi)/Wits/Mallet/Aegis/Atmas
Still experimenting though. Fun to be playing Shen again, getting lots of compliments on Scorpion Shen Skin ^_^
Yeah, even though Scorpion and Sub-Zero Shen skins were the same cost, Scorpion skin got a new loading screen portrait but Sub-Zero didn't. I bought the Scorpion one too. :3
Played another Shen game and lost lane vs a Rumble. Was ahead early on but it just went downhill after Rumble got Revolver. I was ahead in CS all game but I had zero lane control midgame.
So far it seems Rumble, Riven and Kennen can hard counter Shen in lane. Not surprisingly, it's manaless champions that have a chance vs him.
Trinity is pretty good but I'd only go that when I'm ahead.
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Have you guys attempted a Spirit Visage rush vs Rumble, Kennen and co.? That along with a Wits End should actually give him some decent laning, though I haven't tested it myself.
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United States37500 Posts
Going to test Wit's End first thing tomorrow. Aegis, Merc, Wit's End feels enough.
Aegis and Randuin's seems utterly core on Shen. Add in resist boots, you have 3 open slots to toy around with.
Any reason why Visage wouldn't be a good item? Granted you already get one mid-tier items already in Aegis.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:24 NeoIllusions wrote:
Any reason why Visage wouldn't be a good item? Granted you already get one mid-tier items already in Aegis.
I haven't played enough Shen to say for sure how the CDR would feel for your energy management. If your energy can support it, it's an absolutely amazing stat for you. If it can't then it's almost worthless as a stat to you.
Bear in mind that CDR isn't SUPPOSED to be useful on energy champs--they're supposed to be gated by energy more than cooldowns. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Riot fucked up on the numbers on this one, and made Shen's energy return numbers too good, making CDR worth buying.
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United States37500 Posts
I guess I'll test the two MR builds tomorrow. CDR doesn't seem right on him imo. I feel like Wit's End will yield better results.
I go flat Armor Seals, wouldn't think of trading that in for Energy runes. >_>
Edit: one bad Dash and you're pretty fucked in the Energy department.
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I build mallet a game or two ago, after wits and wardens i think... I really liked it. I feel like wits end and mallet is just an awesome death trap. Constantly procing Kistrike while your enemy can't escape, and just shadow dash to follow if they have a disengage.
Haven't tried trinity yet. Would probably do the same thing I want, but with heaps of damage.
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On February 15 2012 18:24 NeoIllusions wrote:
Going to test Wit's End first thing tomorrow. Aegis, Merc, Wit's End feels enough.
Aegis and Randuin's seems utterly core on Shen. Add in resist boots, you have 3 open slots to toy around with.
Any reason why Visage wouldn't be a good item? Granted you already get one mid-tier items already in Aegis.
Why is Aegis core?
I usually end up either building a chain vest or 2x nmm to counter my lane. Add a HoG and work towards phage.
---> Wits/Mercs OR Phage/Randuins. --> the other.
Then once I have my Wits/Phage/Mercs/Randuins I can work towards Triforce and either Atmogs or FoN / Atmas.
PS: It's so stupid how his ult wins fights when both teams are being stupid.
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oh my god new shen's energy management is straight up crisis mode
i didn't have enough for a single spell most of the time in the late-game in my last game
ridiculous
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2 games played with the new shen (well, any shen) and so far i love him.
First was against GP, and it was a bit hard at start, but when he ran out of mana i could start zoning him hard. But that GP started vamp scepter, so hard to say how that match goes against a competent one. At the start it seemed that parrrley vs Vorpal did not favor me at all.
Second was against nasus, and it was super easy, at first it seemed my Q harash did nothing, but when i started to level up, and use my Q + ki, he had to B several times, and in the end he was free money for me and our jungler. Ended the game like 250 cs vs 100.
-Went HoG, phage, wits, randuis, had hard time deciding what next. Trinity in the second game worked out pretty well, but i was so much ahead that even buying extra hog:s would of worked.
- it's so hard to manage that energy. I felt that in every team fight i was ooe from the start, is that just bad play, or how Shen works?
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Tried Jungle Shen a bit and it seems okay, but nothing special. The ult is as strong as it's always been for counter ganking or just generally saving a teammate. I did wits and mercs first and got a phage either before or after my aegis, which I built into a Trinity Force (I started out like 5/0/7). Even with all that offense, my damage still felt like shit on everything but their Janna (Trist, terrible GP with like one defensive item). Tankiness ended up being a slightly lower than what it needed to be for that game, but not by much. I ended up grabbing a FoN and trying Sunfire for more damage, but it didn't help much.
Basically, I had the issue where I was able to get some good taunts (usually 2-4 targets including at least one carry), but despite that I couldn't disrupt or do enough damage to be meaningful past that first taunt. It might've just been an issue of my team being too weak. I'll have to play more games to get a better feel.
Also, I was able to open Doran's Shield very effectively and the early game felt pretty strong. Energy issues weren't as bad later on as I expected, but there were still several key moments where I had too little energy for an additional taunt. You're still pretty energy starved in large team fights if you try to use all your abilities.
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On February 15 2012 19:35 gtrsrs wrote:
oh my god new shen's energy management is straight up crisis mode
i didn't have enough for a single spell most of the time in the late-game in my last game
ridiculous
really? I didn't have too many issues with it, esp with feint up i was hitting tons of ki strikes giving me plenty of energy to vorpal pretty regularly, and occasionally getting enough for dashes. Ofc, i have no frame of reference for what it used to be like, but IMO shen is now a lot more autoattack-centric than spell-centric anyways.
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On February 15 2012 18:26 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 18:24 NeoIllusions wrote:
Any reason why Visage wouldn't be a good item? Granted you already get one mid-tier items already in Aegis. I haven't played enough Shen to say for sure how the CDR would feel for your energy management. If your energy can support it, it's an absolutely amazing stat for you. If it can't then it's almost worthless as a stat to you. Bear in mind that CDR isn't SUPPOSED to be useful on energy champs--they're supposed to be gated by energy more than cooldowns. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Riot fucked up on the numbers on this one, and made Shen's energy return numbers too good, making CDR worth buying.
It depends on how you play him. He can use a little bit of CDR and along with a wits end the returns in energy are enough to let him spam Vorpal, but then again you won't be able to do much else. Need to almost forget about W and dash can't be properly used against a single target...
The reason you'd get Visage against those lanes is simply because the mr is great and the HP is great and the extra healing is great for sustain in a tough lane.
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As far a jungle goes, Ruby start has been straight up awesome. You're full basically all the time past level 2. I'll do QW and then pick either Q normally or E if I feel like I need it for ganking. I tried QE for level 2 ganks, but you really want that shield.
Ruby-Boots-Hog-Merc's-Phage-(Aegis/situational item)-FMallet-(whatever you feel like or need end game) seems to work really really well. All that health and sticking power early makes your ganks terrifying, and makes your shield from Ult turn fights around in seconds.
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On February 15 2012 19:35 gtrsrs wrote:
oh my god new shen's energy management is straight up crisis mode
i didn't have enough for a single spell most of the time in the late-game in my last game
ridiculous
Fun Fact: Before the jungle remake blue gave 15 ep5. Now it gives 35 ep5. If you have energy regen runes you can actually reach 100 ep5 total.
Shen with 20 energy per second is hilarious. Always spam buttons, never not spam buttons.
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After reading so many posts about numbers and theorycrafting by people like Seuss or TheYango in GD, it always feels weird to see you guys post impressions about games that actually happened. Kind of like "Woah... they play too!". Well, of course they do, silly me, but I'm just not used to that kind of feedback coming from you.
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On February 16 2012 01:14 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 19:35 gtrsrs wrote:
oh my god new shen's energy management is straight up crisis mode
i didn't have enough for a single spell most of the time in the late-game in my last game
ridiculous Fun Fact: Before the jungle remake blue gave 15 ep5. Now it gives 35 ep5. If you have energy regen runes you can actually reach 100 ep5 total. Shen with 20 energy per second is hilarious. Always spam buttons, never not spam buttons.
I could see how that'd be fun, but I don't think I'd ever swap out standard AS red/Arm yellow/MR blue/MS quint jungle runes for energy regen. But yeah, when blue == true, you just bloody kill everything. I almost never want to give it away.
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I think you should be running 12 arp in that mix, but I guess I'm not the boss jungler I was a year ago .
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On February 16 2012 05:45 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:I think you should be running 12 arp in that mix, but I guess I'm not the boss jungler I was a year ago .
I feel that AS works a lot better with his passive now. I considered speccing 9/21/0 for the arpen bonuses to make up for it, but I really like the utility stuff.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 16 2012 05:55 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 05:45 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:I think you should be running 12 arp in that mix, but I guess I'm not the boss jungler I was a year ago . I feel that AS works a lot better with his passive now. I considered speccing 9/21/0 for the arpen bonuses to make up for it, but I really like the utility stuff.
I think 5hit means running 3xArPen quints, rather than MS quints.
Given that Shen's gap closer is a dash, and not a movement-based skill like Udyr or Shyvana, I can understand why 12 ArPen could be more worthwhile than 4.5% MS. Have to test more with both to say for certain.
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So does Smashgizmo's old 26/3/1 exaust/ignite dblade cut shit build still work well?
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On February 16 2012 09:34 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 05:55 Requizen wrote:On February 16 2012 05:45 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:I think you should be running 12 arp in that mix, but I guess I'm not the boss jungler I was a year ago . I feel that AS works a lot better with his passive now. I considered speccing 9/21/0 for the arpen bonuses to make up for it, but I really like the utility stuff. I think 5hit means running 3xArPen quints, rather than MS quints. Given that Shen's gap closer is a dash, and not a movement-based skill like Udyr or Shyvana, I can understand why 12 ArPen could be more worthwhile than 4.5% MS. Have to test more with both to say for certain.
Ah, that would make more sense.
I still would rather have the MS. You don't use Dash unless you really need to, since it's so energy restrictive now. I save it for peels or good initiates rather than movement. To be honest, I clear stupidly fast without the arpen quints, and you don't really focus on AD damage later on anyway (you don't really focus on doing damage at all).
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Fun fact #2: When nocturne uses his ult, as long as the darkness is up you can't cast shen ult, even by clicking on the side portraits of your teammates.
It's seriously been that long since I've played shen for me to not know that.
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On February 16 2012 15:28 Lancer723 wrote:
Fun fact #2: When nocturne uses his ult, as long as the darkness is up you can't cast shen ult, even by clicking on the side portraits of your teammates.
It's seriously been that long since I've played shen for me to not know that.
you also can't teleport to anything you don't have direct vision of. in that sense nocturne prevents cross-map teleports and counters teleport summoner to a certain extent.
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So what are people opening itemwise with Shen top?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
ive been going cloth or null into hog, merc, wits end, and phage core, then i finish mallet and truck kids all day while buying the appropriate defensive items (randuins, aegis, atma, GA, FoN, whatever)
don't really like wriggles or warmog's on him. sticking to people in teamfights with wits+FM is fucking strong though.
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I'm not sure what to think of wits end+phage versus trinity. I feel like shen still doesn't have the energy to use taunt as a chasing skill and feel likey you need that trinity. I've tried AS+hp ki strike builds but it just didn't seem that effective when you don't have anything but taunt to get in range.
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Saw a hextech + phage shen shit on a ww top =o
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I tried a standard aspd/arp mix with armor/mr per level and it felt about the same as full aspd reds with move speed quints. Ruby Crystal definitely works as an opener. I had a pretty bad leash and still finished my first clear at full hp.
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What masteries do you guys use for jungle and top respectively on the new shen?
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On February 16 2012 21:43 Craton wrote:
I tried a standard aspd/arp mix with armor/mr per level and it felt about the same as full aspd reds with move speed quints. Ruby Crystal definitely works as an opener. I had a pretty bad leash and still finished my first clear at full hp.
Yeah, I more or less just prefer the MS quints for the reasons I listed earlier. Honestly, Shen can put on whatever the hell he wants and clear the jungle with full health no problem.
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I think i have played maybe 7 games with Shen now, and i have died 4 times, and 2 of those were in the first game. So tanky, so lethal.
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I've seen him 3 times with or against me and played him once. He seems a bit too strong, jungler + the top can't really 2v1 shen without losing at least one it seems.
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On February 15 2012 19:35 gtrsrs wrote:
oh my god new shen's energy management is straight up crisis mode
i didn't have enough for a single spell most of the time in the late-game in my last game
ridiculous
Mucking up a Shadow Dash is fairly brutal late-game, ugh. Anyone experimenting w/nu-Shen that has flat energy or energy regen runes lying around, and if so, do they make enough of a difference? There's the flat 10 energy at the bottom of the utility tree, too.
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On February 16 2012 20:52 Slayer91 wrote:
I'm not sure what to think of wits end+phage versus trinity. I feel like shen still doesn't have the energy to use taunt as a chasing skill and feel likey you need that trinity. I've tried AS+hp ki strike builds but it just didn't seem that effective when you don't have anything but taunt to get in range.
I tried wit's end+phage into atmogs. game was over by then but would've tried to get triforce from phage. it worked out pretty well, but I doubt it's a very good/realistic build considering how fed i was :\
are you doing straight triforce rush? then follow up with what? atmogs? wit's end?
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Warmog's is actually just stupid on him. Getting it farmed is a pain if your enemies are competent in the least, but even without it you just stop giving a fuck about diving 3 champs under a tower. And if you do get some stacks, it basically just wins the game.
Is it practical? Prrrrrobably not. Is it hilarious? Yes.
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On February 17 2012 03:53 Requizen wrote:
Warmog's is actually just stupid on him. Getting it farmed is a pain if your enemies are competent in the least, but even without it you just stop giving a fuck about diving 3 champs under a tower. And if you do get some stacks, it basically just wins the game.
Is it practical? Prrrrrobably not. Is it hilarious? Yes.
You have problems farming with new shen? what the??
After wits end, farming is amazingly easy. And it's not as though whoever you're laning against can bully you off the creeps...
I've been running boots3/cloth 5 -> phage -> wits, and then this like aegis / FM if I'm tping to fights alot, or other shit if I'm just split pushing.
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On February 17 2012 04:15 Dgiese wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 03:53 Requizen wrote:
Warmog's is actually just stupid on him. Getting it farmed is a pain if your enemies are competent in the least, but even without it you just stop giving a fuck about diving 3 champs under a tower. And if you do get some stacks, it basically just wins the game.
Is it practical? Prrrrrobably not. Is it hilarious? Yes. You have problems farming with new shen? what the?? After wits end, farming is amazingly easy. And it's not as though whoever you're laning against can bully you off the creeps... I've been running boots3/cloth 5 -> phage -> wits, and then this like aegis / FM if I'm tping to fights alot, or other shit if I'm just split pushing.
Oh lol, I derped and thought it only gave stacks on champs for a second. Iiiiiii'm a moron.
Still, it's probably not super practical to rush, even though it turns Ki strike into a damned nuke.
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You don't even need to rush it. HoG first, cause there's no reason not to. Then phage or wits end depending on what you're doing, then the other one that you didn't build. Wit's is like standard 2nd item on a bunch of bruisers / junglers nowadays, its not impractical in the slightest to get it early.
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I was saying impractical to rush Warmog's. Wit's is a super good item to get early, it has everything Shen wants for a reasonable price. I get it on like 90% of my jungle games no matter who I'm playing, it's just one of the best items in the game pound for pound.
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Oh, yeah warmogs rush doesn't sound good. I haven't even built it on him yet, but i've been going mallet.
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I also highly prefer FMallet to Triforce. He scales really well with the health, the slow is guaranteed sticking power, and I don't feel like I miss out on a lot from TF. The Sheen proc isn't a huge loss, neither is the AP or Crit. I'd like the MS and AS, but I run MS/AS runes and will probably get a Wit's and a FoN at some point anyway, so those feel covered. I generally play Shen in the "jump in the middle of the fight and tank like a boss" role, so I'd prefer the health like, 99.9% of the time.
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I dont understand why people seem to be under the impression that you need to rush warmogs or get stacks on it for it to be a good item. Warmogs is already extremely powerful and cost-effective when you buy it with 0 stacks. The stacks is just a bonus. Even if Warmogs doesn't have the stacking mechanism at all it'd still be a really strong item. Going from individual components to Warmogs gives a ~50% increase on the hp stats and doubles the regen stats. It's silly how cost-effective it is.
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On February 17 2012 07:49 Ryuu314 wrote:
I dont understand why people seem to be under the impression that you need to rush warmogs or get stacks on it for it to be a good item. Warmogs is already extremely powerful and cost-effective when you buy it with 0 stacks. The stacks is just a bonus. Even if Warmogs doesn't have the stacking mechanism at all it'd still be a really strong item. Going from individual components to Warmogs gives a ~50% increase on the hp stats and doubles the regen stats. It's silly how cost-effective it is.
Thats not what I read. I heard it was pretty inefficient until ~50 stacks....someone mathcraft for us.
So people are opening cloth5 for Shen top? Meh, never like cloth5, but if its the best...
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Dblade still a viable opening for tanky dps ad shen, or should you always boots/cloth/whatever open?
For what I have been building, pretty much what you guys have already said. Dblade, boots, phage, boots 2, fmallet, atmas, whatever
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Feels hard to justify a no pots opening in this day and age, it limits how agressive you can be early by a lot, and makes early ganks more effective. Shen doesn't scale that well off AD anyways, might as well just build AD from a phage or get the magic AD on wits.
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United States37500 Posts
On February 17 2012 08:32 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 07:49 Ryuu314 wrote:
I dont understand why people seem to be under the impression that you need to rush warmogs or get stacks on it for it to be a good item. Warmogs is already extremely powerful and cost-effective when you buy it with 0 stacks. The stacks is just a bonus. Even if Warmogs doesn't have the stacking mechanism at all it'd still be a really strong item. Going from individual components to Warmogs gives a ~50% increase on the hp stats and doubles the regen stats. It's silly how cost-effective it is. Thats not what I read. I heard it was pretty inefficient until ~50 stacks....someone mathcraft for us. So people are opening cloth5 for Shen top? Meh, never like cloth5, but if its the best...
Cloth+5 vs AD up top.
Boots+3 vs AP.
That's your typical AD Bruiser opening for Top Lane anyways.
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United States37500 Posts
On February 17 2012 08:44 Slayer91 wrote:
Feels hard to justify a no pots opening in this day and age, it limits how agressive you can be early by a lot, and makes early ganks more effective. Shen doesn't scale that well off AD anyways, might as well just build AD from a phage or get the magic AD on wits.
I agree.
The only time I would ever open Blade up top is if I want to do a gimmicky Level 2 kill with Renekton. EW Ignite auto, E auto, Flash auto. Only works against a squishy AP top lane who decides to go Boots instead of Cloth. :3
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What about malady on Shen? All of his damage comes from magic and onhits and AS is heavily synergized with passive, he has good ap ratios on tiny CD's for the bit of ap it gives too.
Boots>HOG>Wits>Malady>Randuins/Warmogs/Mallet>Atmas
sounds pretty solid, Malady is so damn cheap 1825
Hell, maybe Rageblade is viable on shen. With stack its one of if not the most efficient items in the game.
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On February 17 2012 08:50 sob3k wrote:
What about malady on Shen? All of his damage comes from magic and onhits and AS is heavily synergized with passive, he has good ap ratios on tiny CD's for the bit of ap it gives too.
Boots>HOG>Wits>Malady>Randuins/Warmogs/Mallet>Atmas
sounds pretty solid, Malady is so damn cheap 1825
Hell, maybe Rageblade is viable on shen. With stack its one of if not the most efficient items in the game.
You're still a bruiser at best, closer to a tank. I'd rather not get pure damage items in lieu of damage/defense items.
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United States37500 Posts
/insert Wit's End here
Edit: ok, I don't want to seem like a jerk and just shoot down idea but Shen is a melee champion. If you're going to go in and auto a lot, might as well benefit from the defensive bonuses from WE. Malady fits a ranged AP auto attack like Teemo much better.
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On February 17 2012 08:32 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 07:49 Ryuu314 wrote:
I dont understand why people seem to be under the impression that you need to rush warmogs or get stacks on it for it to be a good item. Warmogs is already extremely powerful and cost-effective when you buy it with 0 stacks. The stacks is just a bonus. Even if Warmogs doesn't have the stacking mechanism at all it'd still be a really strong item. Going from individual components to Warmogs gives a ~50% increase on the hp stats and doubles the regen stats. It's silly how cost-effective it is. Thats not what I read. I heard it was pretty inefficient until ~50 stacks....someone mathcraft for us. So people are opening cloth5 for Shen top? Meh, never like cloth5, but if its the best...
The upgrade cost is 980. For that you get 310 hp and 15 hp/5. The 15 hp/5 alone is worth 435 gold (regrowth pendant). So that leaves you 310 hp for 445 gold. For comparison, a ruby crystal is 180 hp for 475 gold. That looks pretty darn cost-effective to me.
Honestly, if you can afford a warmogs on Shen I don't see why not.
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I played him for the first time today, or well, for the first time since his remake. I was playing with some RL friends who're not 30 yet and while I obviously had rune&mastery advantage and was a better player by a fair margin, I had no problems playing a 1v2 lane whatsoever. Holy lord, is he retartedly strong or what? I was facing a Talon/Kayle top and had no problems straight up fighting them 1v2 from level 5 onwards. Granted, I used Feint to negate most of Talon's Rake harass and Q'd him in the face every time it was off CD, but that shouldn't be possible. I felt pretty allmighty, went HoG->Wit's->Phage->Aegis and ended the game right there. Every gank bot turned into a 3v3 with Shen generally bringing more to the table then their jungler, every fight was easily won because of the retarted amounts of AoE CC the kid has.
Is it just me being hyped after bashing some bads or is he so strong that it's very likely Riot's gonna nerf him next patch?
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On February 17 2012 10:32 Shiv. wrote:
I played him for the first time today, or well, for the first time since his remake. I was playing with some RL friends who're not 30 yet and while I obviously had rune&mastery advantage and was a better player by a fair margin, I had no problems playing a 1v2 lane whatsoever. Holy lord, is he retartedly strong or what? I was facing a Talon/Kayle top and had no problems straight up fighting them 1v2 from level 5 onwards. Granted, I used Feint to negate most of Talon's Rake harass and Q'd him in the face every time it was off CD, but that shouldn't be possible. I felt pretty allmighty, went HoG->Wit's->Phage->Aegis and ended the game right there. Every gank bot turned into a 3v3 with Shen generally bringing more to the table then their jungler, every fight was easily won because of the retarted amounts of AoE CC the kid has.
Is it just me being hyped after bashing some bads or is he so strong that it's very likely Riot's gonna nerf him next patch?
He is extremely strong, but he is still sort of stealthy OP...I could actually see him going unnerfed or very minorly nerfed for a while because you dont just 100 to zero people and get 30 kills and stuff that gets people nerfed instantly.
After playing other champs and then playing shen its just a bit silly though, he is just stronger in pretty much every way. He feels a bit like skarner after he got overbuffed but even a bit better.
He'll definitely get a huge amount of tournament play or be permban status.
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For energy management Feint is probably underrated. At attack speeds > 1.334 if you feint right before your first KI you can get two more Kis just from that one feint so long as you can stick to the target. So if you aren't focused you get free energy, if you are focused you just got 270 self-HP for 40 energy compared to 240 damage for 60 energy from Q.
Given that I feel like Q is, to borrow WoW terminology, an energy dump. The damage is great but it's something you cast at high energy because the energy/damage ratio is terrible and the heal doesn't need to be spammed. So W is mostly > Q, and of course a good E is > both since the CC and damage reduction are very valuable and a good one doesn't even cost much. Except for like when you need that last Q to kill someone.
IDK just my thoughts.
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http://www.lolpro.com/guides/shen/146-shen-top-lane
Elementz Shen top guide. Interestingly, he suggests core as Boots/Sunfire/Abyssal/Rylai's. I mean, sure, it's all a nice mix of tank and damage, lots of health, but I feel like it's just... something. I don't know if I like Rylai or Sunfire as items as a whole. But, then again, it's some nice resistances and 2 Giant's Belt items. It'll probably work because Shen is Shen, though.
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On February 17 2012 11:50 Requizen wrote:http://www.lolpro.com/guides/shen/146-shen-top-laneElementz Shen top guide. Interestingly, he suggests core as Boots/Sunfire/Abyssal/Rylai's. I mean, sure, it's all a nice mix of tank and damage, lots of health, but I feel like it's just... something. I don't know if I like Rylai or Sunfire as items as a whole. But, then again, it's some nice resistances and 2 Giant's Belt items. It'll probably work because Shen is Shen, though.
wow....uh.... I guess that would work....I do think its a massive mistake not to build AS as core on new shen, he is just completely ignoring the passive.
Abyssal over wits is just a really bad choice IMO
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Just Vs'd an Olaf top lane as Shen. Levels 1-5 he couldn't come near me. Vorpal harrass and taunt threat nearly killed him multiple times (And i nearly died to GP jungle ganks). Level 6-9ish was harder for me, as he bullied me back with his ult threat and rapidly increasing true damage (Wasn't leveling w equal to q), but once I got lvl 3-4 of my shield, the lane tipped back in my favour.
Very interesting lane. If Shen can put Olaf behind pre-6, he is good to go. Otherwise Olaf can smash him at 6
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On February 17 2012 12:39 57 Corvette wrote:
Just Vs'd an Olaf top lane as Shen. Levels 1-5 he couldn't come near me. Vorpal harrass and taunt threat nearly killed him multiple times (And i nearly died to GP jungle ganks). Level 6-9ish was harder for me, as he bullied me back with his ult threat and rapidly increasing true damage (Wasn't leveling w equal to q), but once I got lvl 3-4 of my shield, the lane tipped back in my favour.
Very interesting lane. If Shen can put Olaf behind pre-6, he is good to go. Otherwise Olaf can smash him at 6
Its super jungle dependant, and you are definetly at a disadvantage as Shen. I've played it twice, one time there was no jungle pressure really from either side and I did fine, just dagger him a ton but you cant really engage straightup, farmoff. Second time their jungle came in a ton and I ended up completely fucked, if olaf gets a kill or 2 and any sustain item you are just completely powerless.
Poppy is much the same. I think both are playable matchups but you realllly have to watch out and your jungle has to make sure you don't get camped and end up behind or its game over.
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after reading the lolpro guide i tried rylai's and slowing people with Q from range sounds great in theory and can help you chase for sure, but in any kind of real fight it seems like saving energy for a 2nd taunt is much more effective cc than spamming slowing Qs
maybe sunfire is the aoe i've been looking for though, farming for a warmog's with wriggles/sunfire/wit's end sounds pretty sexy to me with all 3 giving clearing power and resists
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On February 17 2012 11:50 Requizen wrote:http://www.lolpro.com/guides/shen/146-shen-top-laneElementz Shen top guide. Interestingly, he suggests core as Boots/Sunfire/Abyssal/Rylai's. I mean, sure, it's all a nice mix of tank and damage, lots of health, but I feel like it's just... something. I don't know if I like Rylai or Sunfire as items as a whole. But, then again, it's some nice resistances and 2 Giant's Belt items. It'll probably work because Shen is Shen, though.
is he really suggesting building those items in that order? good luck getting atmogs in 90% of games.
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On February 17 2012 10:32 Shiv. wrote:
I played him for the first time today, or well, for the first time since his remake. I was playing with some RL friends who're not 30 yet and while I obviously had rune&mastery advantage and was a better player by a fair margin, I had no problems playing a 1v2 lane whatsoever. Holy lord, is he retartedly strong or what? I was facing a Talon/Kayle top and had no problems straight up fighting them 1v2 from level 5 onwards. Granted, I used Feint to negate most of Talon's Rake harass and Q'd him in the face every time it was off CD, but that shouldn't be possible. I felt pretty allmighty, went HoG->Wit's->Phage->Aegis and ended the game right there. Every gank bot turned into a 3v3 with Shen generally bringing more to the table then their jungler, every fight was easily won because of the retarted amounts of AoE CC the kid has.
Is it just me being hyped after bashing some bads or is he so strong that it's very likely Riot's gonna nerf him next patch?
He's abusive in lane against champs with short ranged harass. but I don't think he's all that broken in lane. He counters a lot of top laners but he gets countered by a fair number of common tops (Rumble, Kennen, Vlad, Ryze) and tons of uncommon ones (Mundo, most AD carries).
The real reason he's busted right now is there isn't really a counter to his split push when Shen's team is competent. He had this ability before, but was gimped by energy issues and mediocre at best laning phase. He'll unbalance the game at a high level because of his split push forcing bad engages, he unbalances low elo because people don't know how to deal with his ult saving people from sure fire kills, which frustrates low elo players into banning him, also low elo hasn't figured out how to counter pick him in lane, so he's simply perma ban until counters become popularized.
The real problem here is that I don't know how riot can nerf him without ruining him. If they take away his damage. he can't lane top anymore and his jungle is worse, if they nerf the global element to his ult (which is what I think will happen) then alot of Shen players are going to be pissed because that's kind of his trademark. There's no easy solution here that balances him for all skill levels.
Even odds they nerf him and he ends up in a worse place then before the buffs.
D:
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You were not kidding about Triforce Shen
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I feel bad everytime I play shen. It feels almost not fair...
The last game I played against this Renekton I hit level 11 before he hit level 7. I don't think I have ever seen anyone get pooped on so hard... I didn't even think it was possible.
o.o
Granted, I am at an ELO where I carry pretty hard with everything (As it turns out last hitting is hard or something), but that just felt so abusive. You want to last hit? QW->auto (you can get three ki's from one W) while just spamming Q and you chunk people pretty damn hard. He so strong in lane.
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On February 17 2012 17:13 iCanada wrote:
The last game I played against this Renekton I hit level 11 before he hit level 7. I don't think I have ever seen anyone get pooped on so hard... I didn't even think it was possible.
You should start playing Spartans then.
On another note, Triforce Shen es op :p
My preferred build atm :
Boots-3 or Armor-5
HoG
Phage
Mercs
Wits
Triforce
Warmog
And this taunt seriously. 1.5s AoE stun giving you energy back :D
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On February 17 2012 16:05 Lancer723 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 10:32 Shiv. wrote:
I played him for the first time today, or well, for the first time since his remake. I was playing with some RL friends who're not 30 yet and while I obviously had rune&mastery advantage and was a better player by a fair margin, I had no problems playing a 1v2 lane whatsoever. Holy lord, is he retartedly strong or what? I was facing a Talon/Kayle top and had no problems straight up fighting them 1v2 from level 5 onwards. Granted, I used Feint to negate most of Talon's Rake harass and Q'd him in the face every time it was off CD, but that shouldn't be possible. I felt pretty allmighty, went HoG->Wit's->Phage->Aegis and ended the game right there. Every gank bot turned into a 3v3 with Shen generally bringing more to the table then their jungler, every fight was easily won because of the retarted amounts of AoE CC the kid has.
Is it just me being hyped after bashing some bads or is he so strong that it's very likely Riot's gonna nerf him next patch? He's abusive in lane against champs with short ranged harass. but I don't think he's all that broken in lane. He counters a lot of top laners but he gets countered by a fair number of common tops (Rumble, Kennen, Vlad, Ryze) and tons of uncommon ones (Mundo, most AD carries). The real reason he's busted right now is there isn't really a counter to his split push when Shen's team is competent. He had this ability before, but was gimped by energy issues and mediocre at best laning phase. He'll unbalance the game at a high level because of his split push forcing bad engages, he unbalances low elo because people don't know how to deal with his ult saving people from sure fire kills, which frustrates low elo players into banning him, also low elo hasn't figured out how to counter pick him in lane, so he's simply perma ban until counters become popularized. The real problem here is that I don't know how riot can nerf him without ruining him. If they take away his damage. he can't lane top anymore and his jungle is worse, if they nerf the global element to his ult (which is what I think will happen) then alot of Shen players are going to be pissed because that's kind of his trademark. There's no easy solution here that balances him for all skill levels. Even odds they nerf him and he ends up in a worse place then before the buffs. D:
How the heck does Vlad counter shen? Vlad doesn't counter anybody. He can be a soft counter to laners that just want to sit and farm, but he's not a counter to anyone -.-;
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On February 17 2012 17:32 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 16:05 Lancer723 wrote:On February 17 2012 10:32 Shiv. wrote:
I played him for the first time today, or well, for the first time since his remake. I was playing with some RL friends who're not 30 yet and while I obviously had rune&mastery advantage and was a better player by a fair margin, I had no problems playing a 1v2 lane whatsoever. Holy lord, is he retartedly strong or what? I was facing a Talon/Kayle top and had no problems straight up fighting them 1v2 from level 5 onwards. Granted, I used Feint to negate most of Talon's Rake harass and Q'd him in the face every time it was off CD, but that shouldn't be possible. I felt pretty allmighty, went HoG->Wit's->Phage->Aegis and ended the game right there. Every gank bot turned into a 3v3 with Shen generally bringing more to the table then their jungler, every fight was easily won because of the retarted amounts of AoE CC the kid has.
Is it just me being hyped after bashing some bads or is he so strong that it's very likely Riot's gonna nerf him next patch? He's abusive in lane against champs with short ranged harass. but I don't think he's all that broken in lane. He counters a lot of top laners but he gets countered by a fair number of common tops (Rumble, Kennen, Vlad, Ryze) and tons of uncommon ones (Mundo, most AD carries). The real reason he's busted right now is there isn't really a counter to his split push when Shen's team is competent. He had this ability before, but was gimped by energy issues and mediocre at best laning phase. He'll unbalance the game at a high level because of his split push forcing bad engages, he unbalances low elo because people don't know how to deal with his ult saving people from sure fire kills, which frustrates low elo players into banning him, also low elo hasn't figured out how to counter pick him in lane, so he's simply perma ban until counters become popularized. The real problem here is that I don't know how riot can nerf him without ruining him. If they take away his damage. he can't lane top anymore and his jungle is worse, if they nerf the global element to his ult (which is what I think will happen) then alot of Shen players are going to be pissed because that's kind of his trademark. There's no easy solution here that balances him for all skill levels. Even odds they nerf him and he ends up in a worse place then before the buffs. D: How the heck does Vlad counter shen? Vlad doesn't counter anybody. He can be a soft counter to laners that just want to sit and farm, but he's not a counter to anyone -.-;
It not necessarily a hard counter, but realistically how Shen gonna zone you when you out range him? As Vlad you can still get farms against Shen Safely and can land harrass basically for free unless you screw up your ranges. I think with Q Shen prolly can stay sustained because vlad doesn't really have killing power; It is a counter in the sense that realistically it is a free farm but Vlad obviously scales much harder into the late game being a carry rather thans a tank.
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On February 17 2012 17:59 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 17:32 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 17 2012 16:05 Lancer723 wrote:On February 17 2012 10:32 Shiv. wrote:
I played him for the first time today, or well, for the first time since his remake. I was playing with some RL friends who're not 30 yet and while I obviously had rune&mastery advantage and was a better player by a fair margin, I had no problems playing a 1v2 lane whatsoever. Holy lord, is he retartedly strong or what? I was facing a Talon/Kayle top and had no problems straight up fighting them 1v2 from level 5 onwards. Granted, I used Feint to negate most of Talon's Rake harass and Q'd him in the face every time it was off CD, but that shouldn't be possible. I felt pretty allmighty, went HoG->Wit's->Phage->Aegis and ended the game right there. Every gank bot turned into a 3v3 with Shen generally bringing more to the table then their jungler, every fight was easily won because of the retarted amounts of AoE CC the kid has.
Is it just me being hyped after bashing some bads or is he so strong that it's very likely Riot's gonna nerf him next patch? He's abusive in lane against champs with short ranged harass. but I don't think he's all that broken in lane. He counters a lot of top laners but he gets countered by a fair number of common tops (Rumble, Kennen, Vlad, Ryze) and tons of uncommon ones (Mundo, most AD carries). The real reason he's busted right now is there isn't really a counter to his split push when Shen's team is competent. He had this ability before, but was gimped by energy issues and mediocre at best laning phase. He'll unbalance the game at a high level because of his split push forcing bad engages, he unbalances low elo because people don't know how to deal with his ult saving people from sure fire kills, which frustrates low elo players into banning him, also low elo hasn't figured out how to counter pick him in lane, so he's simply perma ban until counters become popularized. The real problem here is that I don't know how riot can nerf him without ruining him. If they take away his damage. he can't lane top anymore and his jungle is worse, if they nerf the global element to his ult (which is what I think will happen) then alot of Shen players are going to be pissed because that's kind of his trademark. There's no easy solution here that balances him for all skill levels. Even odds they nerf him and he ends up in a worse place then before the buffs. D: How the heck does Vlad counter shen? Vlad doesn't counter anybody. He can be a soft counter to laners that just want to sit and farm, but he's not a counter to anyone -.-; It not necessarily a hard counter, but realistically how Shen gonna zone you when you out range him? As Vlad you can still get farms against Shen Safely and can land harrass basically for free unless you screw up your ranges. I think with Q Shen prolly can stay sustained because vlad doesn't really have killing power; It is a counter in the sense that realistically it is a free farm but Vlad obviously scales much harder into the late game being a carry rather thans a tank.
...by walking between your creeps and him once they took aggro. Then you lasthit with melee attacks and Q in Vlads face every time it's up. What's he gonna do? Q you back at 1/5th the CD? =P
btw, for starting items:
cloth+5 vs AD
boots+3 vs skill shot based AP (e.g. Ahri)
nmm+2 vs other APs
Like, vs a Rumble e.g. you're better off with the nmm instead of boots imoimo.
If you want to be a real douche you can just pretend being an Irelia. nmm+2 -> boots+nmm -> Wits/Mercs/Phage. While HoG is stronk a lot of the time I rather get my core of Wits/Mercs/Phage and continue with Giants Belt -> Chainmail -> Triforce -> Randatmogs.
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IIRC I saw Loci playing some old Shen vs Vayne top, and got dumped on because her autos outranged his Q.. Seems like a solid way to go about beating him.
As for elementz build... it just really doesn't sound too good. In teamfights you don't have the energy to be spamming vorpal to get slows off, so rylai's doesn't seem that great. I have no idea why you wouldn't make some kind of AS core on him (wits being the fairly obvious choice).
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Yeah, I tried the Elementz build last night in some normals. I guess if you get fed, it's nice... but just with farm and what not you're sacrificing all that early game power for only semi decent improvements later. I dunno. Plus, it's really impractical to wait for that kind of money and items if you're jungling.
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played some ranked for the first time in a week, everyone tells me to ban shen..
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United States37500 Posts
Played vs a Ghost/Ignite Xin just now. We both opened Cloth +5 and it was pretty stalemate early. I could harass him but he would heal it off with Passive + pots.
I died around level 5 because he initiated on me once, I dashed away but stuck around lane. I didn't let my energy recover enough before he auto'd creeps with W and EQ me again and Ignite for the kill. Using Dash as a retreat mechanism hurts a lot.
At worst, he was 60-70 creeps ahead of me but ended the game with a win with 2/2/18 and behind 10 creeps on Xin (he was 230 and his team's high).
Next time vs Cloth Xin, I'll probably just farm fest it. Shen feels more sustain vs Xin's burst when it comes to 1v1. He's almost unharassable after he comes back with Wriggle's. But team fights, it doesn't compare.
Went Tabi, Wriggle's, HoG, WE. He went Wriggles, Merc, Belt, Mallet. Felt really squishy with just HoG as only HP item. Phage before WE might have been better.
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Having tried it a couple times, I don't feel like jungling Shen is a good idea. I feel like he's pretty weak early game and you never really get enough CS to hit a point where you can 1v1 people effectively.
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i think the map awareness and presence that you have jungling combined with his ult allows you to have pretty much the most impact on the game possible in lol.
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Playing around 1400 shen vs irelia isnt even funny so bad for irelia. Spam Q at her non stop and if she comes in to cs you dash and beat on her and she just cant win those exchanges.
She cant even cs anymore before lvl 6 most of the time and end up leaving for jungle or other lanes.
Do people have any tips for helping to learn map awareness? Im pretty terrible at keeping my eye on the map while harassing and end up missing ults.
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On February 18 2012 10:36 Gorsameth wrote:
Playing around 1400 shen vs irelia isnt even funny so bad for irelia. Spam Q at her non stop and if she comes in to cs you dash and beat on her and she just cant win those exchanges.
She cant even cs anymore before lvl 6 most of the time and end up leaving for jungle or other lanes.
Do people have any tips for helping to learn map awareness? Im pretty terrible at keeping my eye on the map while harassing and end up missing ults.
Go play some ZvP in Broodwar.
You have two choices, get the better map awareness, or die horribly.
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On February 18 2012 10:36 Gorsameth wrote:
Playing around 1400 shen vs irelia isnt even funny so bad for irelia. Spam Q at her non stop and if she comes in to cs you dash and beat on her and she just cant win those exchanges.
She cant even cs anymore before lvl 6 most of the time and end up leaving for jungle or other lanes.
Do people have any tips for helping to learn map awareness? Im pretty terrible at keeping my eye on the map while harassing and end up missing ults.
quoting from one of the older GD threads.
Download ICCUP. Play Zerg. Make a game titled "D- ZvP no dts." Repeat.
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On February 18 2012 08:30 NeoIllusions wrote:
Played vs a Ghost/Ignite Xin just now. We both opened Cloth +5 and it was pretty stalemate early. I could harass him but he would heal it off with Passive + pots.
I died around level 5 because he initiated on me once, I dashed away but stuck around lane. I didn't let my energy recover enough before he auto'd creeps with W and EQ me again and Ignite for the kill. Using Dash as a retreat mechanism hurts a lot.
At worst, he was 60-70 creeps ahead of me but ended the game with a win with 2/2/18 and behind 10 creeps on Xin (he was 230 and his team's high).
Next time vs Cloth Xin, I'll probably just farm fest it. Shen feels more sustain vs Xin's burst when it comes to 1v1. He's almost unharassable after he comes back with Wriggle's. But team fights, it doesn't compare.
Went Tabi, Wriggle's, HoG, WE. He went Wriggles, Merc, Belt, Mallet. Felt really squishy with just HoG as only HP item. Phage before WE might have been better.
yea, I've been liking like, hog, recurve, phage after wriggles if you need it, then finishing wit's after the phage. speeds up your HP pool by 950 gold, which is noticeable.
WW beats shen in lane, for sure. Played it twice last night and it's just not fair, WW with wriggle's + wit's just stands there and beats your face in. Xin should be a losing matchup Neo, but yea, if you can make it a straight farm fest, w/e, shen late game >> xin late game.
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I've tried AS reds + quints and mpen red + MS quints. I feel better with the AS because if they decide to stay & fight in early levels, you have more ki strikes and so more shield and more vorpal blade. It's also great with wits end. I also pick the AS and the armpen in the offense tree so I do a bit more damage during those trade, it seemed better than the CDR/magic pen.
The real problem is that shen is too strong so it's hard to discern which build is optimal.
Then the early giant belt is really nice in lane because it gives a nice burst to your damage but the transition to midgame is less good than with what Mogwai said.
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What do you open with for jungle shen? cloth5 or is it doable and better to go vamp/boots/sword/blade/shield?
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Ruby crystal like a boss.
Alternatively doran's shield is good too if you're pussy, you don't need vamp scepter because that puts you over the top on sustain and what shen needs in the jungle is a bit more damage and clear speed.
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jungling shen is a bad idea atm unless your opponent has already picked their jungler, and has also picked a non-aoe clearer
udyr, skarner, lee, shyvana, maokai, even nocturne and alistar will just run you over in the jungle. you won't get a single buff if they don't want you to. he's much more suited to top lane
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On February 19 2012 11:40 sob3k wrote:
What do you open with for jungle shen? cloth5 or is it doable and better to go vamp/boots/sword/blade/shield?
Ruby Crystal, Doran's Shield, Boots+3 pot all work. I opt for the first because you can usually get a HoG + Boots on your first back and you don't suffer any issues with sustain. You don't get wriggles so vamp is wasted and I doubt you'd get much value out of Doran's Blade.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
On February 19 2012 03:23 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 08:30 NeoIllusions wrote:
Played vs a Ghost/Ignite Xin just now. We both opened Cloth +5 and it was pretty stalemate early. I could harass him but he would heal it off with Passive + pots.
I died around level 5 because he initiated on me once, I dashed away but stuck around lane. I didn't let my energy recover enough before he auto'd creeps with W and EQ me again and Ignite for the kill. Using Dash as a retreat mechanism hurts a lot.
At worst, he was 60-70 creeps ahead of me but ended the game with a win with 2/2/18 and behind 10 creeps on Xin (he was 230 and his team's high).
Next time vs Cloth Xin, I'll probably just farm fest it. Shen feels more sustain vs Xin's burst when it comes to 1v1. He's almost unharassable after he comes back with Wriggle's. But team fights, it doesn't compare.
Went Tabi, Wriggle's, HoG, WE. He went Wriggles, Merc, Belt, Mallet. Felt really squishy with just HoG as only HP item. Phage before WE might have been better. yea, I've been liking like, hog, recurve, phage after wriggles if you need it, then finishing wit's after the phage. speeds up your HP pool by 950 gold, which is noticeable. WW beats shen in lane, for sure. Played it twice last night and it's just not fair, WW with wriggle's + wit's just stands there and beats your face in. Xin should be a losing matchup Neo, but yea, if you can make it a straight farm fest, w/e, shen late game >> xin late game.
the last WW I played on top plane did not stand a chance. I Just zoned him out from the beginning.
The only problem I had was a Gangplank who parleyed me everytime and critted me quite hard TT with his jungler help he beated me in lane.
Never played a Xin before
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On February 20 2012 01:00 Chexx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 03:23 Mogwai wrote:On February 18 2012 08:30 NeoIllusions wrote:
Played vs a Ghost/Ignite Xin just now. We both opened Cloth +5 and it was pretty stalemate early. I could harass him but he would heal it off with Passive + pots.
I died around level 5 because he initiated on me once, I dashed away but stuck around lane. I didn't let my energy recover enough before he auto'd creeps with W and EQ me again and Ignite for the kill. Using Dash as a retreat mechanism hurts a lot.
At worst, he was 60-70 creeps ahead of me but ended the game with a win with 2/2/18 and behind 10 creeps on Xin (he was 230 and his team's high).
Next time vs Cloth Xin, I'll probably just farm fest it. Shen feels more sustain vs Xin's burst when it comes to 1v1. He's almost unharassable after he comes back with Wriggle's. But team fights, it doesn't compare.
Went Tabi, Wriggle's, HoG, WE. He went Wriggles, Merc, Belt, Mallet. Felt really squishy with just HoG as only HP item. Phage before WE might have been better. yea, I've been liking like, hog, recurve, phage after wriggles if you need it, then finishing wit's after the phage. speeds up your HP pool by 950 gold, which is noticeable. WW beats shen in lane, for sure. Played it twice last night and it's just not fair, WW with wriggle's + wit's just stands there and beats your face in. Xin should be a losing matchup Neo, but yea, if you can make it a straight farm fest, w/e, shen late game >> xin late game. the last WW I played on top plane did not stand a chance. I Just zoned him out from the beginning. The only problem I had was a Gangplank who parleyed me everytime and critted me quite hard TT with his jungler help he beated me in lane. Never played a Xin before
vs gp i try to avoid trades on lvl 1 as much as possible, from lvl 2 onwards it's much easier. Though random crits can fuck you over so hard :<
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On February 20 2012 01:20 Schwopzi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 01:00 Chexx wrote:On February 19 2012 03:23 Mogwai wrote:On February 18 2012 08:30 NeoIllusions wrote:
Played vs a Ghost/Ignite Xin just now. We both opened Cloth +5 and it was pretty stalemate early. I could harass him but he would heal it off with Passive + pots.
I died around level 5 because he initiated on me once, I dashed away but stuck around lane. I didn't let my energy recover enough before he auto'd creeps with W and EQ me again and Ignite for the kill. Using Dash as a retreat mechanism hurts a lot.
At worst, he was 60-70 creeps ahead of me but ended the game with a win with 2/2/18 and behind 10 creeps on Xin (he was 230 and his team's high).
Next time vs Cloth Xin, I'll probably just farm fest it. Shen feels more sustain vs Xin's burst when it comes to 1v1. He's almost unharassable after he comes back with Wriggle's. But team fights, it doesn't compare.
Went Tabi, Wriggle's, HoG, WE. He went Wriggles, Merc, Belt, Mallet. Felt really squishy with just HoG as only HP item. Phage before WE might have been better. yea, I've been liking like, hog, recurve, phage after wriggles if you need it, then finishing wit's after the phage. speeds up your HP pool by 950 gold, which is noticeable. WW beats shen in lane, for sure. Played it twice last night and it's just not fair, WW with wriggle's + wit's just stands there and beats your face in. Xin should be a losing matchup Neo, but yea, if you can make it a straight farm fest, w/e, shen late game >> xin late game. the last WW I played on top plane did not stand a chance. I Just zoned him out from the beginning. The only problem I had was a Gangplank who parleyed me everytime and critted me quite hard TT with his jungler help he beated me in lane. Never played a Xin before vs gp i try to avoid trades on lvl 1 as much as possible, from lvl 2 onwards it's much easier. Though random crits can fuck you over so hard :<
You just have to play aggressive vs gp. gp can't win exchanges with you because you have higher dps than him. The crits won't come out as often compared to your vorpal blade faceboomb. If you know you laning against gp or any other high melee dps champs, you have to get chain mail first and get wriggle.
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I'm not sure if I was doing something wrong, but yesterday I played Panth vs Shen and I got wrecked really, really hard. I opened dblade and he opened with dshield, and my spears just weren't doing much damage while his sustain pretty much negated whatever damage my spears were doing. On top of that, he chucks his own shit at me but I don't have sustain. What exactly would you suggest if such a scenario happened? Should I have taken a different rune page, different opening build, or is it just a bad matchup in the current patch? I've never flat out lost in the laning phase as a Panth before and it was a pretty unnerving experience.
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i just played my first shen game on ranked and raped a nasus o so hard.. owned top lane and ended up 6-2-4. He seems a bit to powerfull with that Q on such a low cd...
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On February 20 2012 02:54 checo wrote:
i just played my first shen game on ranked and raped a nasus o so hard.. owned top lane and ended up 6-2-4. He seems a bit to powerfull with that Q on such a low cd...
He was like that before patch. Elementz said it, you can facebomb people with q every 2 seconds and own top lane easy.
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Your question should actually be in the panth thread, but...I'm pretty sure Shen is right up there as a counter to panth. Spammable shields do well against panth... especially when they aren't mana restricted.
But yeah, probably not your fault. Should have just switched to jungle panth when you saw the shen pick.
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i wonder how the more mobile ad carries would do in a solo lane vs shen. I can imagine graves or cait or maybe even vayne doing equal or even well in a isolated situation.
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On February 20 2012 05:34 clickrush wrote:
i wonder how the more mobile ad carries would do in a solo lane vs shen. I can imagine graves or cait or maybe even vayne doing equal or even well in a isolated situation.
It depends on who's more aggressive, but range ad carry will have problems because shen can tank a few hits and win exchanges. Again, range ad carry doesn't do solo top, that's just disaster waiting to happen.
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Actually vayne does very well against Shen top. Loci (who is amazing at Shen) has played the matchup, and had to swap lanes because vayne was pretty much hard countering him. This was pre buffs, but Shen's range hasn't changed then, which was the issue.
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On February 20 2012 05:39 Tryndamere wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 05:34 clickrush wrote:
i wonder how the more mobile ad carries would do in a solo lane vs shen. I can imagine graves or cait or maybe even vayne doing equal or even well in a isolated situation. It depends on who's more aggressive, but range ad carry will have problems because shen can tank a few hits and win exchanges. Again, range ad carry doesn't do solo top, that's just disaster waiting to happen.
Most of the ranged carries are also excellent solo laners. Graves, Vayne, Cait, Ezreal, Corki will all beat Shen top lane....as a matter of fact I'm pretty sure any AD carry will beat Shen top. Ranged Carries are not a "disaster waiting to happen" in top lane either.
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On February 20 2012 02:39 koreasilver wrote:
I'm not sure if I was doing something wrong, but yesterday I played Panth vs Shen and I got wrecked really, really hard. I opened dblade and he opened with dshield, and my spears just weren't doing much damage while his sustain pretty much negated whatever damage my spears were doing. On top of that, he chucks his own shit at me but I don't have sustain. What exactly would you suggest if such a scenario happened? Should I have taken a different rune page, different opening build, or is it just a bad matchup in the current patch? I've never flat out lost in the laning phase as a Panth before and it was a pretty unnerving experience.
Shen even before the buffs was one of the strongest picks vs panth, now he is much better. Its a really bad match for panth, try to avoid it. You cannot harass him out of lane, his shield and return harass +sustain will outlast you. You have to have the jungle come in and get you probably 2 kills early with your full burst.
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On February 20 2012 05:58 Lancer723 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 05:39 Tryndamere wrote:On February 20 2012 05:34 clickrush wrote:
i wonder how the more mobile ad carries would do in a solo lane vs shen. I can imagine graves or cait or maybe even vayne doing equal or even well in a isolated situation. It depends on who's more aggressive, but range ad carry will have problems because shen can tank a few hits and win exchanges. Again, range ad carry doesn't do solo top, that's just disaster waiting to happen. Most of the ranged carries are also excellent solo laners. Graves, Vayne, Cait, Ezreal, Corki will all beat Shen top lane....as a matter of fact I'm pretty sure any AD carry will beat Shen top. Ranged Carries are not a "disaster waiting to happen" in top lane either.
I absolutely wrecked a Sivir top with Shen a few days ago, shield her harass and abuse brush as much as possible, then just jumped her with taunt/shield/dagger when she went in to CS. I came out significant ahead on every trade. She should have warded the brush, but with it I was able to zone her.
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I feel like Sivir Vs Shen should be pretty ok for Sivir... just need to make sure she starts boots and stays even / ahead of you getting boots 2. Spellshielding Shen's taunt or vorpal blade means infinite mana for sivir, and her passive should be able to kite him really well. I think vayne was so good because her AA's outranged Shen's Q, and silver bolts don't care what HP shen has.
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If I'm playing Shen support, would getting a philo work? I know it gives mana but I can't decide what Gp10 to get except HoG and with just 1 I feel kinda poor.
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Kages obviously because it benefits every single one of your abilities? Isn't that obvious
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On February 21 2012 20:56 Zhiroo wrote:
If I'm playing Shen support, would getting a philo work? I know it gives mana but I can't decide what Gp10 to get except HoG and with just 1 I feel kinda poor.
better go avarice blade
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On February 21 2012 20:56 Zhiroo wrote:
If I'm playing Shen support, would getting a philo work? I know it gives mana but I can't decide what Gp10 to get except HoG and with just 1 I feel kinda poor.
HoG is better because you can build it into RO later which is a pretty standard item for Shen. The stone is not good for Shen.
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I feel like wriggles would be better than any of the other gp10 items, if you want a "gold generator"
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On February 20 2012 01:00 Chexx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 03:23 Mogwai wrote:On February 18 2012 08:30 NeoIllusions wrote:
Played vs a Ghost/Ignite Xin just now. We both opened Cloth +5 and it was pretty stalemate early. I could harass him but he would heal it off with Passive + pots.
I died around level 5 because he initiated on me once, I dashed away but stuck around lane. I didn't let my energy recover enough before he auto'd creeps with W and EQ me again and Ignite for the kill. Using Dash as a retreat mechanism hurts a lot.
At worst, he was 60-70 creeps ahead of me but ended the game with a win with 2/2/18 and behind 10 creeps on Xin (he was 230 and his team's high).
Next time vs Cloth Xin, I'll probably just farm fest it. Shen feels more sustain vs Xin's burst when it comes to 1v1. He's almost unharassable after he comes back with Wriggle's. But team fights, it doesn't compare.
Went Tabi, Wriggle's, HoG, WE. He went Wriggles, Merc, Belt, Mallet. Felt really squishy with just HoG as only HP item. Phage before WE might have been better. yea, I've been liking like, hog, recurve, phage after wriggles if you need it, then finishing wit's after the phage. speeds up your HP pool by 950 gold, which is noticeable. WW beats shen in lane, for sure. Played it twice last night and it's just not fair, WW with wriggle's + wit's just stands there and beats your face in. Xin should be a losing matchup Neo, but yea, if you can make it a straight farm fest, w/e, shen late game >> xin late game. the last WW I played on top plane did not stand a chance. I Just zoned him out from the beginning. The only problem I had was a Gangplank who parleyed me everytime and critted me quite hard TT with his jungler help he beated me in lane. Never played a Xin before
honestly 90% of the solo top WWs at the moment are total derps. it's not that hard to beat shen with WW, yet I still people doing stupid shit like getting chalice -> SV or something.
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On February 22 2012 01:02 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 01:00 Chexx wrote:On February 19 2012 03:23 Mogwai wrote:On February 18 2012 08:30 NeoIllusions wrote:
Played vs a Ghost/Ignite Xin just now. We both opened Cloth +5 and it was pretty stalemate early. I could harass him but he would heal it off with Passive + pots.
I died around level 5 because he initiated on me once, I dashed away but stuck around lane. I didn't let my energy recover enough before he auto'd creeps with W and EQ me again and Ignite for the kill. Using Dash as a retreat mechanism hurts a lot.
At worst, he was 60-70 creeps ahead of me but ended the game with a win with 2/2/18 and behind 10 creeps on Xin (he was 230 and his team's high).
Next time vs Cloth Xin, I'll probably just farm fest it. Shen feels more sustain vs Xin's burst when it comes to 1v1. He's almost unharassable after he comes back with Wriggle's. But team fights, it doesn't compare.
Went Tabi, Wriggle's, HoG, WE. He went Wriggles, Merc, Belt, Mallet. Felt really squishy with just HoG as only HP item. Phage before WE might have been better. yea, I've been liking like, hog, recurve, phage after wriggles if you need it, then finishing wit's after the phage. speeds up your HP pool by 950 gold, which is noticeable. WW beats shen in lane, for sure. Played it twice last night and it's just not fair, WW with wriggle's + wit's just stands there and beats your face in. Xin should be a losing matchup Neo, but yea, if you can make it a straight farm fest, w/e, shen late game >> xin late game. the last WW I played on top plane did not stand a chance. I Just zoned him out from the beginning. The only problem I had was a Gangplank who parleyed me everytime and critted me quite hard TT with his jungler help he beated me in lane. Never played a Xin before honestly 90% of the solo top WWs at the moment are total derps. it's not that hard to beat shen with WW, yet I still people doing stupid shit like getting chalice -> SV or something.
How does one beat shen with WW? Just curious in case the situation calls for it.
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On February 22 2012 01:11 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 01:02 Mogwai wrote:On February 20 2012 01:00 Chexx wrote:On February 19 2012 03:23 Mogwai wrote:On February 18 2012 08:30 NeoIllusions wrote:
Played vs a Ghost/Ignite Xin just now. We both opened Cloth +5 and it was pretty stalemate early. I could harass him but he would heal it off with Passive + pots.
I died around level 5 because he initiated on me once, I dashed away but stuck around lane. I didn't let my energy recover enough before he auto'd creeps with W and EQ me again and Ignite for the kill. Using Dash as a retreat mechanism hurts a lot.
At worst, he was 60-70 creeps ahead of me but ended the game with a win with 2/2/18 and behind 10 creeps on Xin (he was 230 and his team's high).
Next time vs Cloth Xin, I'll probably just farm fest it. Shen feels more sustain vs Xin's burst when it comes to 1v1. He's almost unharassable after he comes back with Wriggle's. But team fights, it doesn't compare.
Went Tabi, Wriggle's, HoG, WE. He went Wriggles, Merc, Belt, Mallet. Felt really squishy with just HoG as only HP item. Phage before WE might have been better. yea, I've been liking like, hog, recurve, phage after wriggles if you need it, then finishing wit's after the phage. speeds up your HP pool by 950 gold, which is noticeable. WW beats shen in lane, for sure. Played it twice last night and it's just not fair, WW with wriggle's + wit's just stands there and beats your face in. Xin should be a losing matchup Neo, but yea, if you can make it a straight farm fest, w/e, shen late game >> xin late game. the last WW I played on top plane did not stand a chance. I Just zoned him out from the beginning. The only problem I had was a Gangplank who parleyed me everytime and critted me quite hard TT with his jungler help he beated me in lane. Never played a Xin before honestly 90% of the solo top WWs at the moment are total derps. it's not that hard to beat shen with WW, yet I still people doing stupid shit like getting chalice -> SV or something. How does one beat shen with WW? Just curious in case the situation calls for it.
have a defensive rune spec (preferably heavy on the MRes), something like 14/15/1 for masteries and then just open cloth -> wriggle's + wit's (just go straight wit's first if he lets you) and just attack him whenever he wants to fight you. if you build to hit people with your claws, Shen can't trade favorably with you, especially since you heal up on creeps better. new WW is such a ridiculous champion, no idea why they wanted to give him so much free damage.
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How does one go about jungling him after the patch?
What item path do you go after HoG > boots1? Phage or something? Or build more resistances with Aegis/Wit's/Randuin's?
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Shen has several characteristics that make him ez for WW:
- Stacks HP
- Not enough sustain
- Can't push
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On February 22 2012 01:18 Doctorbeat wrote:
How does one go about jungling him after the patch?
What item path do you go after HoG > boots1? Phage or something? Or build more resistances with Aegis/Wit's/Randuin's?
Wriggles wits is your core. Feel free to intersperce Hog, Phage, or any other early mitigation you might want, but wriggles wits is generally your aim before gettin real tanky.
And ya smash, that is the one thing I noticed about new WW- no one can trade with you anymore. Damage just too big.
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What's the standard Top lane Shen core now? Boots, HoG, Wit's, Triforce?
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standard wriggle's/wit's/triforce/mallet type offensive items, aegis/Omen/FoN type defensive items.
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From the PBE notes for today:
General
Base armor reduced to 19 from 23
Vorpal Blade health scaling lowered to 1.5% from 2%
Feint
Energy cost increased to 50 from 40 at all levels
Base shield value reduced to 70/115/160/205/250 from 70/120/170/220/270
Fixed a few bugs with ability sounds
So Riot overbuffs Shen's damage and leaves him still energy starved and their first thought to fix this is to further increase his energy costs?
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On February 22 2012 07:07 arnath wrote:From the PBE notes for today: Show nested quote +
General
Base armor reduced to 19 from 23
Vorpal Blade health scaling lowered to 1.5% from 2%
Feint
Energy cost increased to 50 from 40 at all levels
Base shield value reduced to 70/115/160/205/250 from 70/120/170/220/270
Fixed a few bugs with ability sounds
So Riot overbuffs Shen's damage and leaves him still energy starved and their first thought to fix this is to further increase his energy costs?
Hit a tuant and you have all your energy back. he doesn't really have energy problems, and i've played him quite a bit this week, ahlthought at 1200elo still climbing up, have about 88% winrate with him. Udyr totally rapes him though, in lane I now love playing as shen and against him :D
start boots 4pots, into armour or mr boots, Usually i get an Aegis right away then build wits end, Aegis really helps with the Ulti into team fights
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Shen Ki strike returning 30 energy also helps dissipate some energy problems in teamfights too.
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On February 22 2012 01:16 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 01:11 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 22 2012 01:02 Mogwai wrote:On February 20 2012 01:00 Chexx wrote:On February 19 2012 03:23 Mogwai wrote:On February 18 2012 08:30 NeoIllusions wrote:
Played vs a Ghost/Ignite Xin just now. We both opened Cloth +5 and it was pretty stalemate early. I could harass him but he would heal it off with Passive + pots.
I died around level 5 because he initiated on me once, I dashed away but stuck around lane. I didn't let my energy recover enough before he auto'd creeps with W and EQ me again and Ignite for the kill. Using Dash as a retreat mechanism hurts a lot.
At worst, he was 60-70 creeps ahead of me but ended the game with a win with 2/2/18 and behind 10 creeps on Xin (he was 230 and his team's high).
Next time vs Cloth Xin, I'll probably just farm fest it. Shen feels more sustain vs Xin's burst when it comes to 1v1. He's almost unharassable after he comes back with Wriggle's. But team fights, it doesn't compare.
Went Tabi, Wriggle's, HoG, WE. He went Wriggles, Merc, Belt, Mallet. Felt really squishy with just HoG as only HP item. Phage before WE might have been better. yea, I've been liking like, hog, recurve, phage after wriggles if you need it, then finishing wit's after the phage. speeds up your HP pool by 950 gold, which is noticeable. WW beats shen in lane, for sure. Played it twice last night and it's just not fair, WW with wriggle's + wit's just stands there and beats your face in. Xin should be a losing matchup Neo, but yea, if you can make it a straight farm fest, w/e, shen late game >> xin late game. the last WW I played on top plane did not stand a chance. I Just zoned him out from the beginning. The only problem I had was a Gangplank who parleyed me everytime and critted me quite hard TT with his jungler help he beated me in lane. Never played a Xin before honestly 90% of the solo top WWs at the moment are total derps. it's not that hard to beat shen with WW, yet I still people doing stupid shit like getting chalice -> SV or something. How does one beat shen with WW? Just curious in case the situation calls for it. have a defensive rune spec (preferably heavy on the MRes), something like 14/15/1 for masteries and then just open cloth -> wriggle's + wit's (just go straight wit's first if he lets you) and just attack him whenever he wants to fight you. if you build to hit people with your claws, Shen can't trade favorably with you, especially since you heal up on creeps better. new WW is such a ridiculous champion, no idea why they wanted to give him so much free damage.
How about if the Shen doesn't actually ever commit to fighting you and just spams you down with vorpal/ki strikes pokes?
I tried out the above build in a custom and if the Shen just plays semi-passive and pokes you down with vorpal / ki strikes, shields if you q, and then backs off, it did way more damage than I could regen with autos. If I tried to Q much I'd just run out of mana from starting cloth.
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So what spec and stuff is people trying? Something like 0/21/9 with flash/tp or?
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I've been running 9/21/0, and going exhaust ignite. But that's solely because i know I can get away with it at 1450 elo. The only reason to take TP is to quickly get back to your lane after you ult to save a teammate, which only occurs pre 20 mins. Post 20 mins, it's somewhat superfluous as you will already be split pushing, and using your ult as a built in TP.
There are a bunch of summoners that could work on him, some combination of flash/ghost/heal/exhaust/ignite depending on how you want to play him.
At higher elo i've seen flash ignite commonly, same masteries. Taking mpen and cdr, although aspd and arpn also sound nice with ki strike.
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Ki Strike is magic damage, so you don't really need armor penetration.
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Oh, I was not aware of that. No reason to run Arpen then. I'd been running Mpen anyway, so now I feel even better about my choice
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On February 23 2012 04:44 Dgiese wrote:Oh, I was not aware of that. No reason to run Arpen then. I'd been running Mpen anyway, so now I feel even better about my choice
I typically run a 14/15/1 spec for ArPen and MPen. Those higher tier defensive masteries just don't turn me on and I'd rather have that lategame dual penetration.
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Yeah I skip the 17 point masteries and load out on the earlier shiz. But lol @ late game dual penetration... that just sounds... dirty.
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Just watched M5 top lane go dshield > warmogs > FoN > Atmas > triforce. This was against double AP. Thoughts on his build?
Although he was most kills etc on his team, it still seemed like a really shitty build. Sure he was tanky, but his damage came really late, and he had no Aspeed until zeal (and triforce. I mean c'mon, where was the wits end? especially against double AP.
I just don't think I'm sold on warmogs Shen. I built it earlier today, and yeah it made me tanky as all hell, and is really nice with his HP scaling abilities, but I just feel like mallet provides a bunch more utility, and you're often tanky enough with wits, defensive boots 2, and atma's / aegis.
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On February 28 2012 08:08 Dgiese wrote:
Just watched M5 top lane go dshield > warmogs > FoN > Atmas > triforce. This was against double AP. Thoughts on his build?
Although he was most kills etc on his team, it still seemed like a really shitty build. Sure he was tanky, but his damage came really late, and he had no Aspeed until zeal (and triforce. I mean c'mon, where was the wits end? especially against double AP.
I just don't think I'm sold on warmogs Shen. I built it earlier today, and yeah it made me tanky as all hell, and is really nice with his HP scaling abilities, but I just feel like mallet provides a bunch more utility, and you're often tanky enough with wits, defensive boots 2, and atma's / aegis.
Yeah, I never really got warmogs either, core items of mercs frozen mallet and wits end give very good damage and tankyness mid game in my opinion. If your team is struggling get an AOL before fm.
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Just picked up Shen since he's free this week, not sure what runes/masteries/items to make on him. I used him top lane mostly as tank/support.
The OP is way out of date, and the best non-jungle guide on solomid is scattershot and not very well organized. I'd like to know what runes/masteries/items to make on him.
I went 3/21/0 (I'm only level 24), juggernaut seems too good to pass up for Shen, who has super short range on his abilities and since his passive scales with bonus health.
For items, I went dshield -> boots -> HoG -> better boots -> Aegis -> Warmogs -> Randuin's -> giant belt/phage (was about to finish mallet)
After reading up, I see I should have made Wit's end.
I mostly avoid warmogs, but it seems so good with Shen. I had almost 5k hp at the end, and I hadn't even finished frozen mallet.
I'm totally clueless on what runes to use.
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Since all his abilities scale off of AP, semi Tank - semi AP build works well on him I've found.
Boots / Rylais / Aegis / Randuins / FoN / 6th Item
More AP = More Damage on his spells, More shield on his W, more protection for his Ult. His ult scales very nicely with AP
And I like maxing W first. Free damage absorption is always nice, and I always spam it since it has a low energy cost. Very useful.
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It's repost from GD but after 5 pages went by I reread it and realized it wasn't exactly its place, so here it is, in its champion thread:
Is Olaf some kind of a counter, or hard lane for Shen? I went up against one, expecting to have free harass on him using dagger to stay out of harm's way, and try to zone him.
Turns out I'm overestimating the dagger's damage, and isn't nearly enough to get him out. On the other hand, the range differential between the dagger and reckless swing is so tiny that I get to eat it almost every time (can you anim' cancel the dagger btw? It's got a lot of frames post-cast), and after some levels my level 1 shield isn't enough to cover it. I fell behind a bit in cs, but that had probably more to do with how aggressive he was, and the triple gank from Lee early on (good thing, I was purple side, so he only came at level 3).
I'd probably have been zoned had I not taken MS quints and picked fast tabis after HoG.
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When Shen was considered op a few weeks back, I used to pick olaf against him. I don't know, it just seems to me that the trading potential of Olaf is too high and the only choice shen has is to passively farm. Max q and trade axes for daggers + throw the occasional e, can really kill him if he plays properly, but in my opinion shen back then was used to bullying people with his harras, so shutting that down throws him off a ton. Granted, you can't interrupt his ult as olaf.
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Is there something that can disable Shen's ult? I just got ganked, but I casted my ult to get away, and it channeled for the 3 seconds, and I still had half health at that point, but I didn't port. Little confused.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
On May 06 2012 12:29 Dalguno wrote:
Is there something that can disable Shen's ult? I just got ganked, but I casted my ult to get away, and it channeled for the 3 seconds, and I still had half health at that point, but I didn't port. Little confused.
stuns and taunts
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On May 06 2012 12:29 Dalguno wrote:
Is there something that can disable Shen's ult? I just got ganked, but I casted my ult to get away, and it channeled for the 3 seconds, and I still had half health at that point, but I didn't port. Little confused.
You can still keep Shen at original place with silence, knock up, stun, etc.. but the ult shield on the ally will still remain. Don't build AP Shen for people who are saying build AP for more damage, it is the wrong way. You build Shen around his passive and AS/HP. The faster you can AA, the faster you can proc your passive and your passive is dependent on your bonus HP.
Typical Shen build is treads/tabi depending on if enemy is physical heavy or CC heavy. HoG, wits end, giants belt, mallet/warmogs, randuins, FoN. If you are having an easy time, just get boots, giants belt and stack AS items like wits end, madreds, ionic spark. You will be surprised how much damage Shen can dish out with those items and still be tanky.
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On February 28 2012 11:01 fruitypancakes wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 08:08 Dgiese wrote:
Just watched M5 top lane go dshield > warmogs > FoN > Atmas > triforce. This was against double AP. Thoughts on his build?
Although he was most kills etc on his team, it still seemed like a really shitty build. Sure he was tanky, but his damage came really late, and he had no Aspeed until zeal (and triforce. I mean c'mon, where was the wits end? especially against double AP.
I just don't think I'm sold on warmogs Shen. I built it earlier today, and yeah it made me tanky as all hell, and is really nice with his HP scaling abilities, but I just feel like mallet provides a bunch more utility, and you're often tanky enough with wits, defensive boots 2, and atma's / aegis. Yeah, I never really got warmogs either, core items of mercs frozen mallet and wits end give very good damage and tankyness mid game in my opinion. If your team is struggling get an AOL before fm.
shens more of a cc machine and initiator in teamfights, his purpose isnt to do damage. so mallet is not that great.
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Mallet is great by midgame since it makes sure your team can chase down whoever you are chasing, generally the AP or AD carry, unless you are slowing a bruiser such that your AD can kite better.
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I don't like mallet on Shen. Phage isn't bad, but frankly Shen's most likely the best red carrier on your team so I'd be building for split pushing / 1v1 power instead. That way having Shen on the team actually gives you unfair map control.
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Shen isn't a cc machine, his taunt in very expensive and on a long cooldown. Build Shen 2 warmogs and FoN as I've seen if you want, but that won't make you a threat in any way, you'll just hurt a squishy that let you in every 6 seconds when your passive is up. That's why stuff like Randuin's/warmogs/wit's is good on him, because it provides AS to make his passive relevant (esp. with his shield up) and gives him HP to enhance it, with the added cc from randuin's. Mallet itself is more a bonus cc than a damage item.
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Any info on how to play Shen, since it is its free week im trying him out but i have no idea on what to build, since OP its edited in 2011 how shen changed to today standards of play?
Runes, Skill order, and any particular matchups that shen excels at?
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This thread is full of infos, just read the most recent pages.
Basically, HoG Phage Wit's end Warmogs Sunfire all good items on him, depending on context.
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Am i the only one who likes to build Aegis on him? Early Aegis so good on those first team fights, and with your ult, you will always get there... boots -> hog -> aegis/wits -> wits/aegis is usually my core, after that it depends on how fed i am...
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HoG -> Wits Ionic -> Randuins -> Triforce imo but =P
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R>Q>W>E if you can beat them in trades handily (for more zoning potential with Q). pick up a early level of E for escaping and ability to assist ganks
R>W>Q>E if you lose the trades fairly hard (I would advise against picking shen into these lanes, as many people can cast 1 spell or bait the shield and then punish you) and are opting to farm and ult defensively. Yorick, Udyr, and Olaf can outtrade you and can all bait your shield if need be, as an example
Generally it comes down to getting a feel for each champion's strength - can they outtrade you, and if so, at what level(s)? If you win trades, its fairly easy to simply Q and Ki-strike (your passive) to heal off the Q and do greater damage.
If the lane has stalemated or you can grab a q last hit or q/auto on a creep without fear of the enemy punishing you while your q is on cd, doing so will heal you a marginal amount.
When someone comes to gank for you or you think you can pick up a kill, getting into position to e and then q auto (ignite if taken) will allow you to set up for yourself or others.
Try to keep a good watch on your other lanes / minimap / health bars on the left side of the screen so that you can ult when needed. If you dont have the time scroll and pick a person, or your team is very clumped, pressing R and then clicking on a portrait can be more reliable than blindly clicking and hoping you ult your intended target.
Runes - mpen / aspd reds, armor / energy per level yellows, mr (flat or scaling) blues, and movespeed / armor / MR (aspd if ur ballsy) quints are all good choices on shen. Each allows for a different playstyle - mpen + armor / MR quint shen would excel at Q trading and perhaps a ki strike along with it, whereas aspd runes give you greater extended trading power and splitpushing ability midgame.
shen excels versus most melees who must commit themselves to trade without beating shen's crazy efficiency with his w and q and passive. Darius, Olaf are exceptions to this.
People with super sustain and as a result trading ability (udyr and yorick) are also difficult for shen. Udyr can also cancel his ult mid cancel for relatively little, and is thus an extremely annoying matchup.
he's a fairly safe pick, and is fun to teleport around with and make clutch saves. gl hf
items, anything that helps your survivability (HP is nice with your passive as well), gives aspd (for splitpushing, trading, and damage threat), etc. is fine. wits is a nice item that has both that makes you a terror in midgame fights.
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I always level my W up first on shen these days tbh. shit's really stronk.
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The cd scales harder but ur kill potential and harass ability shrinks pretty hard i.e. they will only need to back if ganked or if they eat a bunch of free qs or try to trade with ur shield up hue
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On June 27 2012 07:31 AleKSei23 wrote:
Any info on how to play Shen, since it is its free week im trying him out but i have no idea on what to build, since OP its edited in 2011 how shen changed to today standards of play?
Runes, Skill order, and any particular matchups that shen excels at?
I build him:
boots + 4 pot against easy lane
doran's shield against medium/hard lane
Then:
HoG -> boots 2 -> phage if even or losing/recurve bow if winning -> wit's end -> aegis -> mallet -> Randuin's -> situational 6th item. of course change around the order of these depending on how game is going (example: AD carry is getting fed, get randuin's earlier)
Ionic Spark is good alternative to wit's end if you don't need MR.
2 ways to build shen's runes/masteries:
1) more magic damage
2) more attack speed
9/21/0 masteries:
For #1, go for CDR and magic pen
For #2, go for attack speed + armor pen (or Demolitionist or Summoner's Insight if you take teleport)
standard armor seals, flat MR or scaling MR glyphs, flat health quints
For marks:
For #1, go for magic pen
For #2, go for attack speed
skill order: QWEQQ, then max R -> Q -> W -> E
Shen is so good he is first-pick material. He does have some trouble with champs that have spammable strong harass i.e. jax/olaf. Against just about anyone else he's awesome. The worst thing about shen is that he's so good that he's almost always banned in draft pick.
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Been playing him exclusively today, and I must say, it has been one of the most enjoyable heroes I have played yet!
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Is there any up to date guide for Top Shen? Just bought him but there's no good solomid guide with top matchup tips! (dont know who hes good to pick vs!)
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hey guys, i need masteries plus runes for jungle&top shen.
S3 guide would be good too.
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Jungle Shen Guide
Runes:
AS Reds
Armor Seals
Flat or Scaling MR Glyphs (Preference)
AS or MS Quints (Preference)
Summoners:
Smite + Flash
+ Show Spoiler [Non-standard choices] +Exhaust or Ghost in place of Flash.
Masteries:
9/21/0 picking up +4%AS and Armor Pen in offense(I believe it's overall more effective than MPen? Also, you're limited more by energy than CDR as shen) and standard jungler choices in defense (bladed armor + whatever you want. +4% health and +5 armor are recommended.)
Items:
Start
Machete + 5 red potions (standard)
Early game items: (Order is approximate.)
Razors (not wriggle, your sustain should be fine, it's just your clear speed that needs help.) + Wards
Boots1 + Wards
Giant's belt
Boots2 (Treads or Tabis - Treads are more commonly the right choice.)
Sunfire Cape or Warmog's Armor (Decided by whether or not you're tanky enough or whether you are in a good position to splitpush.
Core items complete. Further items are based on the game. If you need more defensive items, get HP+resist items - especially those which reduce the enemies' overall effectiveness (against more than just you - they may try to avoid focusing you at this point) like Randuins or Runic Bulwark. If you need a damage item (are you sure?), Wit's End or Triforce are good options. Sell razors when you run out of space (Wriggles really doesn't make sense - all it does is makes a vamp scepter share an item slot with razors. You already have Vorpal Blade's Lifegain effect and a spammable shield.)
Non-core, but really useful items:
Sightstone is nice to get anytime during the core item buying phase. It's really nice, because you have wards on you for various uses, from splitpushing to keeping the parts of the map warded that the support can't easily access (you're a lot more tanky than most supports, and you also have a "flash" available.) like enemy buffs. I like to buy sightstone after razors if I pick up a surprising early kill - especially on the enemy jungler - and use it to ward his jungle (wraiths, buffs, Jbush)
If you have achieved Raid Boss status, but you want to splitpush harder better faster stronger, consider a Tiamat/Hydra instead of Triforce/Wit's end.
Playstyle:
I tend to gank at 3, then try to farm up until 6 as quick as I can, taking only opportunistic ganks (ganking a lane where flash is blown or there are no wards, or counterganking the other jungler.) until I reach 6.
If you get a successful gank off (either a kill or dropping a laner low enough that they can't stay in lane for fear of dying) then tax your lane and shove it hard - getting that exp to level 6 is really important here. The last hits can go to your laner if possible, to let them further extend their own lead so you don't need to regank.
Post-6, feel free to show a lot more presence, because they can't take advantage of you revealing your position as long as you have your ulti up (unlike any other jungler, who if they show in one part of the map, other parts can feel free to be more aggressive.) Look for a good play or counterplay to use your ultimate, but remember that it's best used on a lane that has already hard engaged. Land your taunts! (I wouldn't really recommend smartcasting the taunt. It's deceptively easy to miss if you don't place it well.)
Make sure that your teammate knows that you're going to ulti them, so they don't do something like flash over a wall with 200 health + 300 shield remaining.
As you transition through the midgame and into late game, you'll want to begin looking for opportunities to exercise your splitpushing power. Pay particular attention to itemizing such you can hold your own in a 1v1 against their top laner - he is the most likely candidate to be sent to challenge your splitpush. If he can't completely scare you off by himself as the game progresses, you'll be able to really frustrate them with splitpushing - note that you don't have to *beat* him, you just have to be able to stay in the lane against him and continue pushing. Be ready to ulti when splitpushing - especially at low Elo, players aren't particularly good at the "patience" aspect required of the 'other 4' when 1 member is splitpushing. Try to get the other 4 to stay grouped when you're splitpushing - your ulti isn't going to save someone(s) from being picked off 1(or 2) v4. Use wards (sightstone is great!) to give yourself enough time to escape if the enemy team tries to collapse on you when you're split off - use your ult to escape if necessary, but hopefully your ward coverage should be good enough that you can escape by walking away or recalling.
Feedback appreciated - This is probably my first attempt at a real guide.
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On January 29 2013 02:25 Mensol wrote:
hey guys, i need masteries plus runes for jungle&top shen.
S3 guide would be good too.
For top shen I've generally been going 1/29 against harder lanes, or else 9/21 against easier lanes.
rune AD/AS reds, armor yellow, MR(either), and then quints you can use whatever. I generally go cloth5/hp bead+pots+ward into (MR item(s) if necessary)+sunfire->warmogs(wits/triforce first if fed)-> more tank items.
Generally I play him to split push as much as possible though, so your experience may vary.
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Pretty good guide. I use scaling magic resist glyphs, and I think movement speed quints are super. Also I generally get machete but rush sunfire cape and just sell the machete. I suppose it's only an extra 400 gold so your clear speed isn't awful for nearly as long though.
I would say core items for Shen are Sunfire Cape/Warmogs/Wit's End. If you can get those in a reasonable amount of time, you're doing pretty well.
Also I think flash is too good to pass up on Shen. People never anticipate you flash/taunting them, but there are situations where you can win teamfights before they even start by doing just that.
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While I agree on Flash being incredibly good and very rare to pass up, I do think Exhaust also has a lot of potential on Shen, when 1 exhaust (supplied by support) is just not enough and/or the opposing jungler might be trying to kill you in your jungle, exhaust is pretty much the best option for dueling in your jungle, and will easily keep you alive against a ballsy Lee Sin long enough for you to receive help from your lanes (Warning: requires team coordination!)
I put the nonstandard summoners inside a spoiler.
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On January 29 2013 03:32 zer0das wrote:
I would say core items for Shen are Sunfire Cape/Warmogs/Wit's End. If you can get those in a reasonable amount of time, you're doing pretty well.
That's a too big of a core for a Jungler - especially one who doesn't have a blazing fast clear speed. That's a really big core even for a Laner. You want to be done with your core by the time lane phase breaks down, and unless you're racking up kills and CS like crazy, you'll have less than half the gold you need for your core. Note that every item you listed I have down as a recommended item.
I'm particularly leery of Wit's end - I really don't think it's necessary to "do your job" as Shen, and it's certainly not the only item that can go in that "I want a hybrid damage+defense" item department.
I also don't really think you need Warmog's AND Sunfire - If I got a sunfire, I'll most often find myself getting a Bulwark rather than Warmogs as my second big tank item.
I probably should have mentioned Locket, too - even though CDR is a little awkward on Shen because your energy pool can only take so much abuse, one kindlegem item is fine.
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Thank you guys I usually make randuin as third item. Peoples love to play bruisers these days.
Especially sylverfyre, i really appreciate your help.
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Do you guys run Teleport or Ignite on top lane Shen? I used to refuse to go for kills (obviously I kill if possible, but usually focus on farming until I can estimate my opponent's playstyle) and just farmed my ass of with the occasional teleport gank, but lately I've been watching Wickd and he does this:
Flash / Ignite, 9/21/0 with Armor Pen in offense
Red: attack damage (pretty useful for last hitting in the early levels under turret, it's so good)
Yellow: armor
Blue: magic resist flat / per lvl
Quints: flat HP
This allows for some pretty good last hitting and surprisingly early game skirmish capabilities. However, I can't really decide because I have too few games with him (Shen banned so often...) and sometimes I just miss Teleport for the random Double Kill bot lane when the enemy has pushed and I port right behind them onto a ward. This usually not only gives us a drake but makes my own bot lane snowball hard. And as long as I can keep up in farm top lane / not fall too far behind while making the plays, it's more than worth it.
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Like most tops, it depends on who you are against. General rule of thumb: if you don't have a high probability of killing your opponent, then you may as well get teleport and accomplish stuff elsewhere. For instance, you're probably not going to kill a Garen without massive amounts of assistance, and ignite is unlikely to tip any fights in your favor.
Also exhaust is another option- can be useful in lane and its generally more useful than ignite in teamfights.
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Which matchups are good for shen? i'd be happy to hear bad matchups too :D
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What do people think about a Shen/Thresh combo? People tend to run away when you gank with your ult but if you can ult someone far back who then uses Thresh's lantern to all of a sudden throw TWO people at their faces...it sounds very scary.
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@fancy
While I don't consider myself a good Shen, I feel that Teleport has massive power on the character throughout the game. I would default to it and make ignite the "special case" summoner spell.
It just feels so good to Ult into a team fight bot, clean up 2 or 3 kills, then TP back to stop in time to stop the push. I can sense the hatred fuming from my opponent and feel like a complete badass every time I pull off a move like that.
Couple that with super split-push power throughout the game, and I think teleport is a better "goto" spell than ignite.
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On January 30 2013 04:57 Jermstuddog wrote:
@fancy
While I don't consider myself a good Shen, I feel that Teleport has massive power on the character throughout the game. I would default to it and make ignite the "special case" summoner spell.
It just feels so good to Ult into a team fight bot, clean up 2 or 3 kills, then TP back to stop in time to stop the push. I can sense the hatred fuming from my opponent and feel like a complete badass every time I pull off a move like that.
Couple that with super split-push power throughout the game, and I think teleport is a better "goto" spell than ignite.
Yes, Teleport is without a doubt much more useful lategame than Ignite. That's why I love, it makes Shen even more of a ticking time bomb that wins the game by itself (I'm talking about 5x5, solo queue lategame Shen has a much higher chance of losing even with Teleport).
But once in a while I have these games were I'm like "damn i could kill the enemy if I only had Ignite...". And what's even more scary than lategame Shen is an early fed Shen. When you ult to someone with Boots, Sunfire and maybe a Ruby Crystal at like 12-14 minutes, you do so much damage and are unkillable. Shen doesn't snowball as crazy as certain other champs, but he definitely makes good use of early kills, too.
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On January 30 2013 03:14 Mensol wrote:
Which matchups are good for shen? i'd be happy to hear bad matchups too :D
While Shen is pretty stable in most matchups, difficult matchups generally revolve around characters who will all-in you whenever they want to (like Darius) and/or have enough harass damage to bust through your moderate sustain + self-shield (like Elise). Easy matchups tend to be ones who rely on one button for harass - especially at lower range - so you can shrug off the harass, return it back with some Q poke, and go back to farming.
Being pushed hard constantly is a little annoying too - until you get Sunfire cape, you can't push back very hard. Fortunately Shen can last hit under tower fine, but it makes it quite difficult to ult out of lane if your lane is being shoved.
Anything in between you can probably turn into a farm lane - which is fine for Shen - you're like TF - your goal is to win OTHER lanes, not so much your own. If your jungler or mid can bring some damage into lane though, (hi, redbuff) you're great at assisting ganks with your taunt.
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Gravedigging this thread with an itemization question:
Twin Shadows on Shen when stuck in top lane against an AP champion (Kennen, Rumble, Elise, etc)?
First back boots/Kage's, second back Mercs and Twin Shadows gives you a bunch of MR to be able to fight along with extra CC and enhanced ganking power. It also gives you some GP10 and AP (which all of his abilities scale with) as a bonus.
I've tried it a few times and it works out, but no one is doing it and I can't help but wonder why? I know you lose a bit of midgame tankiness from not going Giant's Belt first, but GP10 plus giving you a good chance to fight your lane opponent (and not get zoned) seems to be worth it to me.
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Shen needs health and pushing power, both of which Sunfire gives him so thats usually the default 1st item.
I could see Twin Shadows being decent if you need MR but its getting kages early sets you behind in lane and I feel like there are other items I would rather have, including wits end for MR. Shen scales with AS so it works well.
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you have to consider how many games shen is not banned in too
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On April 07 2013 01:19 Lightswarm wrote:
you have to consider how many games shen is not banned in too
Almost nobody still bans Shen around gold, too busy banning out Hecarim, Vi, Elise, Blitzcrank, etc.
Personally I ban Elise, Blitz, Akali, TF, and/or Pantheon when I get the chance, they all enable games to snowball out of control quite early without you being able to do anything about it (since you can't play every role).
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Hmm. As much as HP is good on shen, his AP ratios are actually pretty scarily high. Given how much magic damage he does, how good would buying an abyssal be? Combine that with sunfire + your standard build and you get a larger shield on W, much, much more damage from Q/E and an extra ~100 health on your ulti.
As long as you're tanky enough to sit around (which you should be), that AoE actually hurts a lot, especially with the -20MR.
I'll test it next time I get shen top against an AP champion I guess. Sit on a negatron until I finish sunfire and then pick up an abyssal. Seems like it could catch people off guard too since that increases shen's burst by a hefty amount.
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I know people rarely play Shen now, but if I were to, what offensive item would be best? Blade? Tf? Hydra?
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All of those might be too expensive. Wit's End might be more fitting. TF if you can afford it, but maybe even Rylais?
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Too expensive? Most of the other tank tops are getting one of those.
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Different champions.
Renekton has his ult for beef, Jax has W and ult, Irelia often goes *pop* until really late, Trundle has ult, Shyvana has ult, Lee is Lee...
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I've found that TF works best with Shen. Expensive yes, but you are able to split push so much that you end up with quite a bit of gold, and the AS on it helps both your passive and your split push.
Wits End if they have two sources of AP damage that I need to worry about.
Blade if the other tank is really tanky (ie. Mundo)
Hydra pretty much never for me, I'm not looking for huge amounts of damage, but the ability to chase.
Static Shiv when things are looking desperate and I'm looking to lose.
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I usually like TF cause the phage and sheen procs work pretty well with his kit and role.
The only item worth considering is probably a wits end, but i would feel like a banshee's might be more useful when you're diving for an AP champ anyways. It might be useful if your team is pure AD so you can do more magic damage with sunfire and your dagger from the mres steal (lol)
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BOTRK + TF = CARRY SHEN ALL DAE.
Nah but really I like BOTRK for single damage item. Slow is handy, great for chasing people down.
I actually really like Shen right now, spaming F2 - F5 keys looking for TPs while Csing is quite challenging.
p.s. blood moon shen or warlord shen best skin? Surgeon can GTFO.
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On May 15 2014 13:48 ZataN wrote:
BOTRK + TF = CARRY SHEN ALL DAE.
Nah but really I like BOTRK for single damage item. Slow is handy, great for chasing people down.
I actually really like Shen right now, spaming F2 - F5 keys looking for TPs while Csing is quite challenging.
p.s. blood moon shen or warlord shen best skin? Surgeon can GTFO.
i got blood moon, mask imba
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Please. TPA Shen for inflatable clap-bat power and that beautiful auto attack sound.
As far as actual gameplay goes, I can say from experience that Rylai's is a very useless item, even first. Your q does a little more damage and the health is nice, but sunfire or TF/BotrK for damage is just so much better.
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On May 16 2014 05:30 aurawashere wrote:
warlord best shen skin
pretty much
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
yeah recently I'm running a lot into WitsEnd/TF Shens with tanky items and I have to say that shit is tanky and deals tons of damage and can appear suddenly on my lane, taunting all day, all nighy.
Also Blood Moon Shen best.
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United States15536 Posts
TPA > All. Bats for days.
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TPA > All indeed. :D
I was messing around with Shen for a few ranked games, and found it a lot of fun but a little weak vs. a lot of popular champions. However, just today I got owned in lane at level 2 as Renekton by an elixir+health pots all in from Shen... I need to try that.
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Shen's level 1 and 2 are stronger than Renekton's respective levels. Renekton gets strong once he gets all his skills though and once that happens Shen has to wait for Sunfire.
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Shen only is strong lvl 1 and 2 if you fight him. He has no chase potential before taunt, and only small harass with lvl 1 Q.
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Had to play Shen vs Mordekaiser last night, couldn't touch him ...
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On May 19 2014 07:16 Beavo wrote:Had to play Shen vs Mordekaiser last night, couldn't touch him ...
pick something else? ^^
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I figured I'd dust off this thread with the resurgence of top/support Shen. The energy cost reduction on increasing ranks of E plays really well, because it lets you trade with a full round of abilities in lane without starting at 200/200 energy. In fact (after a messy level 1), I found that starting with E and maxing it first felt surprisingly strong in lane against Nasus - I'd just EQauto every time it was up and I had a larger creep wave, forcing him out of lane despite a flask/pots start and giving him fewer opportunities to Q the wave.
In the midgame, I've personally had a lot of fun building a Raptor Cloak item after Sunfire/Cowl. The passive speed near towers enables so many E opportunities, and both of the items are actually quite reasonable on Shen in his typical split-pushing and tower-diving roles.
My hardest lane matchup by far has been W max Gnar. He's a fiend in lane and hard to punish even with a gank, and can match your global impact with proper rage management. I admittedly haven't tried E first against him, and I would like to hear others' thoughts and experiences.
I've yet to try Shen support, but in the LCS game today it looked pretty reasonable in lane, and the midgame synergy with Ori and Sivir was undeniably effective. Anyone have any experience with the bot lane matchups?
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Shen in lane is pretty much useless as his Q sucks for poking and hes really squishy as a support (even with W). But he makes up for it by excelling at assisting in ganks and using his global ultimate to assist in skirmishes elsewhere in the map.
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I imagine support Shen would take Q at level 1 for the (admittedly low) allied sustain, then start putting points in E to force trades repeatedly against their ADC, trading pots/relic shield stacks for their hp with the goal of forcing an awkwardly timed recall. I'd certainly like to give it a try.
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On July 05 2015 11:59 MidnightGladius wrote:
I imagine support Shen would take Q at level 1 for the (admittedly low) allied sustain, then start putting points in E to force trades repeatedly against their ADC, trading pots/relic shield stacks for their hp with the goal of forcing an awkwardly timed recall. I'd certainly like to give it a try.
Yup, that's the ticket.
It's not a hard bully lane, but when you press R top something does every time.
Then your top laners tps bot and your carry gets fed.
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I've been maxing E first against farm matchups top (Maokai, Cho) where levels in Q don't really do anything, but the -2s CD and -5 energy cost per level actually help a ton in the midgame. Getting an additional taunt in during a gank or ult or tp fight feels extremely influential.
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Support shen should max q or w. E is on too long a CD for too short a CC duration with too little damage to get much use out of it in lane. If you mad e you will be able to repeatedly force trades that you lose, which is no advantage. The damage of q is actually pretty high(as is the per-level damage) and because it's both targeted and low CD it adds up fast. W is also nice because shields again, make for better trades and the cd is nice.
Best path is probably r,q,e,w. E bee one because you can get your taunt cd low in the mid game with CDR and actually start to use it well around level 13, whereas prior to that you are unlikely to have such extended trades (you will be dead before you get taunt 2 off without points in w or q)
Edit: basically compare q to e. At level 4, rank 2 q vs rank 2 e.
With e at rank 2, Shen taunt trades for 145 plus auto plus ki. He can do this once every 14ish seconds. He pokes for 60 every 6 ish seconds providing a potential 10+2.5% max health HP/5 to him and his AD. (Generally an either or on damage/healing unless you and your AD can hit the enemy while you vorpal blade them)
With q at rank 2 Shen taunt trades for 150 plus auto plus Ki every 16 ish seconds. He pokes for 100 every 5.5 seconds. And heals up to 15+2.5% HP/5.
If you're using q on CD then you're either holding your taunt for it to be back up for the trade or you're not using your q on CD. Q 2 ranks can get 2 qs in between each e while two rank e can only get one without negating the e cd advantage. So for two trades e max gets 350 plus two autos and two ki's in 14 seconds and q max gets 500 plus two autos and two ki's in 16.5. If e max waits on CDs it gets 410 in 18 seconds.
Third rank at 5 has the same effect. Q gets 140 three times in between taunts, e max gets 1 (though now you are legit down to 12 seconds. So overall for two trades e max does 440 in 12 and q max does 800 in 16. (Both plus autos and
Ki's)
Only works if you can really afford to force those weaker trades more often (keep in mind still outside of the CD of every other supports peel). No, it's better to use e as a counter engage tool when you can get a good line on both ad/support than it is to force taunt trades. And if you do this then q or w max is necessary.
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Problem is q is useless after the first 10 minutes so unless you can get something done with it there is no point in maxing it as support.You should always max q on top(maybe in some really fucking hard matchups you could put a few points in w instead early).
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On July 16 2015 21:51 nafta wrote:
Problem is q is useless after the first 10 minutes so unless you can get something done with it there is no point in maxing it as support.You should always max q on top(maybe in some really fucking hard matchups you could put a few points in w instead early).
Surviving and bullying lane phases is value. Pros tend to max q and then e once they're out of lane. Highest win rate % for support on champion.gg is r,q,w,e. (ie raw first trade power)
So make your own choice there.
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This is literally the same situation as thresh was in before people learned to max q instead of flay.Sure flay max is better in lane but it is useless later same with shen q.I literally said if you think you can get something useful done with q max you should do it but it doesn't do anything later in the game and in passive lanes it is useless.
Obviously if you are gonna try to splitpush or something you have to max q as well.
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Literally every pro I have seen straight up maxes e on support Shen.
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On July 18 2015 00:42 nafta wrote:
This is literally the same situation as thresh was in before people learned to max q instead of flay.Sure flay max is better in lane but it is useless later same with shen q.I literally said if you think you can get something useful done with q max you should do it but it doesn't do anything later in the game and in passive lanes it is useless.
Obviously if you are gonna try to splitpush or something you have to max q as well.
Except that maxing Q appears to win more games than maxing E in soloqueue. So unless you're saying that threshes have moved to maxing Q and it is costing them games i don't see the point.
Winning matters. Maxing Q wins games
On July 18 2015 04:17 loSleb wrote:
Literally every pro I have seen straight up maxes e on support Shen.
probuilds disagrees. Every single support shen game gets 2 ranks of Q by 4 and a third rank at 5, or ends laning and starts maxing E. And you would expect pros to end laning sooner than non, which would suggest that Q is stronger for the rest of us.
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On a purely anecdotal note, going to lane with E at level 1 and watching the enemy laner take 60% damage from minion aggro due to standing in your wave is deeply satisfying.
Take that, Teemo counterpick!
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On July 18 2015 09:57 MidnightGladius wrote:
On a purely anecdotal note, going to lane with E at level 1 and watching the enemy laner take 60% damage from minion aggro due to standing in your wave is deeply satisfying.
Take that, Teemo counterpick!
Yea, e is very situationally strong at level 1. I have a hard time determining when you should pick up Q and when you should pick up E though, besides when you're obviously invading.
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On July 18 2015 10:21 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 09:57 MidnightGladius wrote:
On a purely anecdotal note, going to lane with E at level 1 and watching the enemy laner take 60% damage from minion aggro due to standing in your wave is deeply satisfying.
Take that, Teemo counterpick! Yea, e is very situationally strong at level 1. I have a hard time determining when you should pick up Q and when you should pick up E though, besides when you're obviously invading.
Well it doesn't say which is better when on probuilds how could you.
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On July 18 2015 19:21 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 10:21 Goumindong wrote:On July 18 2015 09:57 MidnightGladius wrote:
On a purely anecdotal note, going to lane with E at level 1 and watching the enemy laner take 60% damage from minion aggro due to standing in your wave is deeply satisfying.
Take that, Teemo counterpick! Yea, e is very situationally strong at level 1. I have a hard time determining when you should pick up Q and when you should pick up E though, besides when you're obviously invading. Well it doesn't say which is better when on probuilds how could you.
:roll:
Probuilds is an argument for "what pros are doing" so don't tell me pros are doing x when evidence says they are doing y. That there also happens to be a strong argument for q max (and evidence that it works) is why you should do/consider it.
It takes both but only one to disprove a shit argument.
The reason the q or e at level 1 is hard is because it's hard to know when and if you can get a god taunt off before level 2. (And if you can't then the sustain and poke are obviously better)
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On July 19 2015 03:23 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 19:21 nafta wrote:On July 18 2015 10:21 Goumindong wrote:On July 18 2015 09:57 MidnightGladius wrote:
On a purely anecdotal note, going to lane with E at level 1 and watching the enemy laner take 60% damage from minion aggro due to standing in your wave is deeply satisfying.
Take that, Teemo counterpick! Yea, e is very situationally strong at level 1. I have a hard time determining when you should pick up Q and when you should pick up E though, besides when you're obviously invading. Well it doesn't say which is better when on probuilds how could you. :roll: Probuilds is an argument for "what pros are doing" so don't tell me pros are doing x when evidence says they are doing y. That there also happens to be a strong argument for q max (and evidence that it works) is why you should do/consider it. It takes both but only one to disprove a shit argument. The reason the q or e at level 1 is hard is because it's hard to know when and if you can get a god taunt off before level 2. (And if you can't then the sustain and poke are obviously better)
I dunno man every pro I have watched on kr q maxes.Guess I should have specified good players.To be fair though I should have specified sometimes you get a few points in flay for the lane but ONLY if you can do something useful with it.Same with shen.
It really isn't hard to tell if you should q or e since it only depends on what you are playing against but hey why use basic logic of range and what abilities characters have or what is your goal as a lane lvl1/2 when we can look at champion.gg for winrates.Clearly those 1k games played with q lvl 1 44.48% win rate vs 223 games of e start with 53.81% makes it obvious what you should start.
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On July 19 2015 04:22 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2015 03:23 Goumindong wrote:On July 18 2015 19:21 nafta wrote:On July 18 2015 10:21 Goumindong wrote:On July 18 2015 09:57 MidnightGladius wrote:
On a purely anecdotal note, going to lane with E at level 1 and watching the enemy laner take 60% damage from minion aggro due to standing in your wave is deeply satisfying.
Take that, Teemo counterpick! Yea, e is very situationally strong at level 1. I have a hard time determining when you should pick up Q and when you should pick up E though, besides when you're obviously invading. Well it doesn't say which is better when on probuilds how could you. :roll: Probuilds is an argument for "what pros are doing" so don't tell me pros are doing x when evidence says they are doing y. That there also happens to be a strong argument for q max (and evidence that it works) is why you should do/consider it. It takes both but only one to disprove a shit argument. The reason the q or e at level 1 is hard is because it's hard to know when and if you can get a god taunt off before level 2. (And if you can't then the sustain and poke are obviously better) I dunno man every pro I have watched on kr q maxes.Guess I should have specified good players.To be fair though I should have specified sometimes you get a few points in flay for the lane but ONLY if you can do something useful with it.Same with shen. It really isn't hard to tell if you should q or e since it only depends on what you are playing against but hey why use basic logic of range and what abilities characters have or what is your goal as a lane lvl1/2 when we can look at champion.gg for winrates.Clearly those 1k games played with q lvl 1 44.48% win rate vs 223 games of e start with 53.81% makes it obvious what you should start.
I don't understand what you're saying. No one said anything about Thresh Q or E being particularly better, just that Shen Q has more lane power and that this is valuable and wins more games than maxing E.
Furthermore, no one said that level 1 e wasn't strong, just that it wasn't necessarily what you should go with every time. And deciding which to use was hard, because there isn't a lot of information you can use because you will often need to choose before the point where it becomes clear whether or not you should take e first. So saying "e first does better" doesn't mean anything in this context. It would if there were a suggestion as to why e first should do better every time.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110103203156/leagueoflegends/images/thumb/a/ab/Shen_SurgeonSkin.jpg/800px-Shen_SurgeonSkin.jpg)
