| Forum Index > Legacy of the Void |
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bypLy
757 Posts
starcraft is a good game, temporary balance issues here and there but the game is perfect for me. But what is the most important aspect of a good game? To be able to fucking play it without some idiots ruining the experience. Now it seems possible, finally. The best news in a lifetime its also on reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/3ol4xr/sc2_30_has_disabled_all_external_maphacks_sad_day/ | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
It's great news. Hacks will be back for sure, but for now it will be much cleaner on the ladder  . | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 14 2015 00:48 Ej_ wrote: PartinG's passion restored? Whut? Are there more details on this? Thanks in advance! | ||
The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On October 14 2015 00:52 deacon.frost wrote: Whut? Are there more details on this? Thanks in advance! Many Koreans were really angry about the maphacking situation and went so far as to say ladder was unplayable. Even the number 1 GM on Korea was a known maphacker. I guess Parting was also one of the more frustrated guys? | ||
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wjat
385 Posts
I don't want to sound dumb but isn't this tweet basically saying "hey guys, come and try to hack me." | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On October 14 2015 01:24 wjat wrote: Wow it would be amazing... I don't want to sound dumb but isn't this tweet basically saying "hey guys, come and try to hack me." That tweet was made by a hacker, not by a Blizzard employee or serious Starcraft II player. The hacker community basically admitted defeat (for now)  . | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On October 14 2015 01:15 Musicus wrote: Many Koreans were really angry about the maphacking situation and went so far as to say ladder was unplayable. Even the number 1 GM on Korea was a known maphacker. I guess Parting was also one of the more frustrated guys? | ||
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Elentos
55561 Posts
On October 14 2015 01:15 Musicus wrote: Many Koreans were really angry about the maphacking situation and went so far as to say ladder was unplayable. Even the number 1 GM on Korea was a known maphacker. I guess Parting was also one of the more frustrated guys? He got really frustrated. | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On October 14 2015 01:39 RoomOfMush wrote: They will be back soon enough. Its not going to last long. The question is what actually made this say that. If it takes them 6 months of work now to hack it again, then Blizzard can just change one thing and it takes another 6 months,... Then they're probably just going to say "Fuck, this is not worth it". Only paid hacks would exist. And then it's a question of "are people willing to pay enough for this?". That being said, this is assuming that Blizzard really did find a good way to solve this problem. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
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sc2chronic
United States777 Posts
unless its entirely impossible to hack again in the future, this is just weekly news material | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37056 Posts
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On October 14 2015 02:04 sc2chronic wrote: what is the difference between this and WOL/HOTS ban waves+patches that disabled hacks for a few weeks? unless its entirely impossible to hack again in the future, this is just weekly news material The patches just moved where the information is stored in the RAM, so they just had to figure out what the new addresses were. They didn't really disable hacks for a few weeks so much as disabled hacks until the creators decided to quickly fix it. Unless Blizzard has done something really crazy, I expect a proof of concept of a 3.0 hack to be figured out before the end of the month sadly. | ||
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
On October 14 2015 01:45 KeksX wrote: The question is what actually made this say that. If it takes them 6 months of work now to hack it again, but then Blizzard can just change 1 thing and it takes another 6 month, then they're probably saying "Fuck, this is not worth it" and probably only paid hacks will exist. And then it's a question of "are people willing to pay enough for this?". That being said, this is assuming that Blizzard really did find a good way to solve this problem. Blizz did it often, and it was simple to only find the offset (new memory address) of the same old structure. The only reasons hacks don't work anymore is the save replays don't work, Blizz changed big chunk of the actual game logic. And I'll guess some of the changes they've made was only to break hacks (and it broke both internal and external ones), but that's just speculations. They did a similar "get the hackers" move by scanning/monitoring some specific address used by a somewhat popular hack few patches ago (wasn't hard really since all the code is opensourced on github). Point is even with the "dead gaem" meme, SC2 remains popular not only with gamers, but from hackers. Even people that don't want to make a full hack might want to scan the interesting/dangerous (used by warden) addresses, there will be an incentive for paid hacks and there will be people that hack the game for pride and/or fun. And after a short google I can safely says hackers are already teaming up to find a new API, even those that make $, because they sell on quality not exclusivity. Once it's done hacks themselves are pretty easy to do (not even 50 lines of codes for most basic maphacks), or even path the old ones. Sadly I do not have a magic way to fix the hacking issues, the only thing I'm sure is that with a synchronous engine thee's no amount of software solution that would work and still run the game decently fast. It should comes from the policies and the way they handle the hackers. Even just having a feedback from the report button (player x repported xx/xx/xx was banned today) or a simple invoice acknowledgement on their hack email would help not feeling helpless. | ||
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Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16021 Posts
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45184 Posts
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TurboMaN
Germany925 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On October 14 2015 02:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Saying "hacking is no longer possible" is a silly statement. Perhaps hacking is being taken more seriously, or maybe earlier hacks were patched out/ caught via the Warden, but we know that plenty of people out there are going to say "Challenge accepted." The title should absolutely be changed to something more realistic. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
I'm completely unconvinced maphacking has been removed as a possibility, but I also know that it is possible to prevent it utterly. They just may not want to take the current measures that it requires. | ||
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Gere
Germany55 Posts
On October 14 2015 02:28 ROOTFayth wrote: avilo does not believe that :D Avilo will always claim his opponent hacked. | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On October 14 2015 02:15 varsovie wrote: Sadly I do not have a magic way to fix the hacking issues, the only thing I'm sure is that with a synchronous engine thee's no amount of software solution that would work and still run the game decently fast. It should comes from the policies and the way they handle the hackers. Even just having a feedback from the report button (player x repported xx/xx/xx was banned today) or a simple invoice acknowledgement on their hack email would help not feeling helpless. Yeah, I personally fear that the "big change" will probably be figured out relatively soon, too. I mean, the hacking community has quite the (criminal) energy to get these things done and unless Blizzard completely changed the codebase I don't see how things can be too different since the problems lie in the lockstep simulation. | ||
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PhoenixVoid
Canada32746 Posts
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Obamarauder
697 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On October 14 2015 02:49 danl9rm wrote: Do the people that are saying "anything can be done" realize that statement includes preventing hacking? Get out of your box. I'm completely unconvinced maphacking has been removed as a possibility, but I also know that it is possible to prevent it utterly. They just may not want to take the current measures that it requires. The nature of the SC2 engine makes it practically impossible to prevent. | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On October 14 2015 01:45 KeksX wrote: The question is what actually made this say that. If it takes them 6 months of work now to hack it again, then Blizzard can just change one thing and it takes another 6 months,... Then they're probably just going to say "Fuck, this is not worth it". Only paid hacks would exist. And then it's a question of "are people willing to pay enough for this?". That being said, this is assuming that Blizzard really did find a good way to solve this problem. Its probably rather going to take about half an hour. The hack will still work just the same way, the only things that need changing are a few numbers. | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On October 14 2015 02:49 danl9rm wrote: Do the people that are saying "anything can be done" realize that statement includes preventing hacking? Get out of your box. I'm completely unconvinced maphacking has been removed as a possibility, but I also know that it is possible to prevent it utterly. They just may not want to take the current measures that it requires. The statement does not include preventing hacking. Its impossible to prevent that. At least the way SC2 works. If you have the game on your disc, if you can play it, you have all the data. And that is all you need, the data. The hack is just something to show it to you, but the data is completely open. Thats how computers work. Blizzard can not protect YOUR memory from yourself. | ||
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mrjimp
Sweden14 Posts
Its probably rather going to take about half an hour. The hack will still work just the same way, the only things that need changing are a few numbers. Appearently its a big change and its not as easy as for previous patches. Hopefully they'll be gone a for a few weeks :D | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On October 14 2015 04:43 RoomOfMush wrote: The statement does not include preventing hacking. Its impossible to prevent that. At least the way SC2 works. If you have the game on your disc, if you can play it, you have all the data. And that is all you need, the data. The hack is just something to show it to you, but the data is completely open. Thats how computers work. Blizzard can not protect YOUR memory from yourself. well you can still prevent it if you have all the logic on the server, but thats highly unlikely and not worth in any sense. | ||
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BamBam
745 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45184 Posts
On October 14 2015 05:24 Energizer wrote: Wait, are we really assuming that someone with 10 twitter followers actually knows what they're talking about? I mean, I guess that would be ok if we had a few more hackers actually step up. Hell every UI change has screwed with hacks since values were being incorrectly read from the wrong location and took a good few weeks before they were back. I don't think I've ever heard the validity of someone's argument be questioned through the number of Twitter followers he has before. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10688 Posts
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On October 14 2015 07:36 Umpteen wrote: It could be that Blizzard have introduced some code that they can endlessly reconfigure with minimal effort. Everyone gets a tiny patch each week and the hacks get knocked back to square one. This is what I had proposed in an earlier thread about this topic and I think it could work well if the refactoring is truly random and can not be predicted. | ||
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crazedrat
272 Posts
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
On October 14 2015 07:36 Umpteen wrote: It could be that Blizzard have introduced some code that they can endlessly reconfigure with minimal effort. Everyone gets a tiny patch each week and the hacks get knocked back to square one. Would have 3 side effects though : Would probably break saves/replays, Even more Bnet downtime and possibly the impossibility to switch region, May introduce some unseen bugs/instability. Plus I'm sure hackers would then develop heuristics to find the offsets and addresses automatically. So far this is the most keen "hard solution" I've seen here. Although it would probably not help very much versus "macro trainers" automation and micro-hacks (mechanics), it would probably help vs maphacks/enemy production tab kind of hack (information). It's not uprising that Blizzard ups its anti-hack measures right before LotV, and probably will maintain an active policy against hackers for at least the rest of 2015 in order to get the release hype under as best an image they can. It remains to see if those kind of effort will vanish soon after like it did for HotS. | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On October 14 2015 08:02 varsovie wrote:Would probably break saves/replays, Not neccessarily. This depends on how replays and saves are structured. If they do it the bad way then yes. If they do it properly then no. On October 14 2015 08:02 varsovie wrote:Even more Bnet downtime and possibly the impossibility to switch region Downtime? You mean because of the patch? And why would you not be able to switch regions? On October 14 2015 08:02 varsovie wrote:May introduce some unseen bugs/instability. Things like these are not done by hand but rather by a computer. Computers do not make mistakes. This is just basic refactoring. On October 14 2015 08:02 varsovie wrote:Plus I'm sure hackers would then develop heuristics to find the offsets and addresses automatically. Thats why it needs to be truly random. Like a natural random number generator based on chemical / radioactive material. Furthermore it should not just be simple "moving" of adresses, because this is simple to reverse engineer. Much rather it should obfuscate data in memory by calculating variables from different memory adresses to make up the final value. For example: Mineral counts are calculated as the sum of mem adress A, B and C. This would make it much harder to find out at which adress the mineral count is saved. Especially if the sum uses a different number of summands after each patch. On October 14 2015 08:02 varsovie wrote:Although it would probably not help very much versus "macro trainers" automation and micro-hacks (mechanics), it would probably help vs maphacks/enemy production tab kind of hack (information). Would help against these kinds of things too. The automatic micro / macro needs to read / write memory too in order to work. If everything switches around these hacks would not work either. The only kinds of hacks that would still work would need to be based off of image or time data. They could make a screen capture and analyse the image to find invisible units and highlight them. This would be too complicated for simple hacks though I guess. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
(not directing this at anyone, it's clear enough who is who) | ||
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alexanderzero
United States659 Posts
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Penev
28512 Posts
On October 14 2015 07:36 Umpteen wrote: It could be that Blizzard have introduced some code that they can endlessly reconfigure with minimal effort. Everyone gets a tiny patch each week and the hacks get knocked back to square one. Blizzard are Borg | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
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BigRedDog
461 Posts
Second, since Blizzard hasn't been playing an active part in kicking or discouraging any maphakc plays (ban accounts etc), i really doubt they will do anything soon. Lastly, that's one tweet coming from an individual. Is there any credible source to back this up? I am a diamond player so this maphack doesn't irritate me much. But i can understand from a pro-gamer trying to get to the top in ladders, this is seriously frustrating to play against. I do wish someone in Blizzard is monitoring maphack accounts and crack them down. Temp ban is too light. Any account caught maphacking should be ban permanently. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On October 14 2015 08:30 alexanderzero wrote: Hopefully, someday Blizzard will only send visible information to the clients. That isn't really viable for a RTS (as of now). | ||
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ETisME
12628 Posts
I don't think hacking will stop, it's just that hackers need to find a new way to back in. Hopefully it is not as easy and drive up the cost for hacking | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On October 14 2015 02:28 ROOTFayth wrote: avilo does not believe that :D :D | ||
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Karis Vas Ryaar
United States4396 Posts
On October 14 2015 13:22 ETisME wrote: Has any popular game really been free from hacking? I don't think hacking will stop, it's just that hackers need to find a new way to back in. Hopefully it is not as easy and drive up the cost for hacking console games mostly I think? at least it very rarely happened. I followed the Halo 3 scene pretty closely and can't really remember any issues with hackers (I mean there were one or two things that technically existed and occasionally people complained but I don't think it was rampant or anything like that. there was a hacked gametype that was played alot but that was just to lower the respawn time down to almost instant.) | ||
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Riner1212
United States337 Posts
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riotjune
United States3394 Posts
Now if only the same thing could be said with a FTL warp drive that defies the (current) laws of physics. | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
Address Obfuscation: an Efficient Approach to Combat a Broad Range of Memory Error Exploits http://home.eng.iastate.edu/~daji/seminar/papers/BVS03.UsenixSec.pdf Cryptographic obfuscation and 'unhackable' software http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2014/02/cryptographic-obfuscation-and.html Preventing Memory Access Pattern Leakage in Searchable Encryption https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/73758/459_ready.pdf?sequence=2 API Deobfuscator: Identifying Runtime obfuscated API calls via Memory Access Analysis https://www.blackhat.com/docs/asia-15/materials/asia-15-Choi-API-Deobfuscator-Indentifying-Runtime-Obfuscated-API-Calls-Via-Memory-Access-Analysis.pdf All of these talk about randomly moving addresses or splitting values up and scattering them across several addresses to make them harder to reverse engineer. Of course, the articles are not all about this, there is much deeper information inside. Just in case anybody is interested. | ||
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
On October 14 2015 08:16 RoomOfMush wrote: Not neccessarily. This depends on how replays and saves are structured. If they do it the bad way then yes. If they do it properly then no. Replays are simply a stream of command applied to a set of original game logic. You can see the same principle in most text editor using the undo/redo command, it doesn't save the state of the text for each undo, but simply apply/reverse the delta (change/inputs). If you're changing the way those gamelogic are stored, created or modified, there's great risk that you wouldn't be able to read it. Even if the change is very subtle and only creates an infinitesimal rounding error on the speed or direction of a unit it might greatly change the outcome of some games. Think of it as a "desync" error, but that would appears reading old replays. Of course this is just speculation and SC2 has a very solid engine in this regard if only from the fact the MAC version works very well, but it is still a risk. Downtime? You mean because of the patch? And why would you not be able to switch regions? Bnet is always down for some reason. Maintenance, Patch, Crashes, Extreme Lag... I don't even think they reach 99% availability. If you had to that mandatory patches every weeks or so, then it's another little pause, another few seconds to patch, probably a minute or two more on your queue time... For regions they never patch all servers at the same time to avoid a pause at the peak hour. Sure SC2 can keep "old" executable around, but it would kinda moot the point of patching to counter hacks if you're not changing everything at once. Things like these are not done by hand but rather by a computer. Computers do not make mistakes. This is just basic refactoring. Things like this are made by hands, typed via a keyboard, into a text-editor or IDE, then put into a compiler also written by hand than will use the power of your CPU (mostly designed by a software written by hand and then hand improved) to make it readable by your CPU, then it must be distributed to be read via multiple computer to be handled by an OS (also written the same way)... Sure they could automate it, but it would still require to make the automation tools in the 1st place. Also computers DO make mistakes, that's the whole reason we have so many security and integrity checks. Electrons aren't infallible when you rely on them to move a certain way couple billions times a second on a substrate that you count in atoms (in fact less than a hundred of thickness for latest commercial CPUs). The whole point is that code isn't infallible, so you don't mess with stable code EVER. Thats why it needs to be truly random. Like a natural random number generator based on chemical / radioactive material. Furthermore it should not just be simple "moving" of adresses, because this is simple to reverse engineer. Much rather it should obfuscate data in memory by calculating variables from different memory adresses to make up the final value. For example: Mineral counts are calculated as the sum of mem adress A, B and C. This would make it much harder to find out at which adress the mineral count is saved. Especially if the sum uses a different number of summands after each patch. Even "quantum" RNG generator on latest intel CPU isn't considered random enough and merely used to seed the random number generator. Heck every new Kernel of Linux there's a new source of entropy added. Of course that kind of obstruction you suggest means I couldn't just make 25 rax and then search all adress for a "25" value. But it wouldn't change much since hackers don't "monitore and look at every values", since you can debug the executable (at least playing offline), save the values, change something (let say build a rax) then simply take a look at the delta. People have reverse engineered obscuration methods way more advanced, like the PS3 loking code or the MD5 hashs, so I do not think a dimple ADD gonna change much. And if you're going for a more advanced method then you will need to "reverse" it back to be readable by the game at EVERY read which brings 3 problems : clear value gonna be small enough to stay on CPU otherwise it gonna be saved on RAM, heavy CPU overhead (lag) do read EVERY values, instead of looking for mem offsets hackers just gonna find what instruction makes the encode/decode of value, and reuse it in their hacks or reverse engineer it. Would help against these kinds of things too. The automatic micro / macro needs to read / write memory too in order to work. If everything switches around these hacks would not work either. The only kinds of hacks that would still work would need to be based off of image or time data. They could make a screen capture and analyse the image to find invisible units and highlight them. This would be too complicated for simple hacks though I guess. Automatic scripts don't really have to read memory... | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany1095 Posts
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Karolynaz
1 Post
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redviper
Pakistan2333 Posts
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EarthwormJim
Canada94 Posts
Here is what has happened, and what will happen in the short future : A) The code changed so radically (SC 3.0) that using existing hacks simply doesn't work. This is because the way hacks used to "update" was for the developer to look for a slight change after a patch, and update their hack. This doesn't work anymore. B) This means that 3.0 threw a monkey wrench into the machine that is hacking, and this doesn't break hacking, it simply means that you've slowed down the process indefinitely; until someone writes a new hack for 3.0 After this happens, it's the exact same process as before. C) This isn't easy to achieve, but is entirely possible and will happen most likely within a few weeks. This also gives a unique opportunity for someone to monopolize the hacking community (for sc2), as valiantchaos essentially did. So in other words, there is a very strong motivation factor to consider, which means new hack(s) will be out sooner than later. TL;DR Hacking has been slowed to a halt, but will be back within a few weeks, just as strong as ever. This is not a solution to hacking, nor even a strategy, more or less an affect due to a new interface and radical changes to code. sc2 3.0 I wish a mod would change the title and even add a little information, as this thread has clearly convinced several people of something that is absolutely ridiculous. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
But atleast Blizzard are trying and I hope for them that they made it so it would be easier for them to break new hacks. | ||
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Riner1212
United States337 Posts
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ImFromPortugal
Portugal1368 Posts
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