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On September 28 2015 03:57 Hider wrote:Well when I got into Sc2 I used to be obsessed about trying to improve. But when you - later on in life - try to play it casually, all of the design flaws of the game becomes obvious because it's so hard to get into some of the fun parts of the game (which are great micro interactions). The RTS genre still has gigantic potential imo and it's why I am very interested in this from a design discussion.
That is something I can completely agree with on all terms. But that doesn't take away from the overall experience or makes the game mediocre in my eyes.
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@"the dead RTS market": I need to point out that this is a perception that is not shared everywhere, because many people consider MOBAs strategy games. Which makes sense, both from looking at the origin of MOBAs (or ARTS as it used to be called) as well as the similar playerbase.
The MOBA's as we know them today are spiritual successors of RTS games like Warcraft or even furtherback Herzog Zwei, not just due to DotA's origin in WC3, but because creating a fantasy strategy game with very heavy focus on unit management was one of the original Warcraft intentions, in contrast to other RTS games of that time. MOBA's merely take that to the next level.
TLDR: The RTS market isn't dead. The popular RTS subgenre at the moment is MOBA and one could argue that the genre is stronger than ever. It's the traditional/classic RTS games that cannot keep up, but the playerbase for RTS games is out there.
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Macro Mechanics
Thank you for your participation and feedback yet again throughout this week. Making a decision in this area is probably the most difficult choice we've ever faced during Starcraft II’s development. Both the community and our development team members have had an evenly split opinion on the topic, and no matter which way we go, there will be an equal number of players that are for and against the decision. Because of this, we believe it's important to do what's best for the game in this situation, rather than going for a change that everyone wants, because clearly, there's not even close to a consensus on this topic.
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+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Happy with Sept. 17 macro changes?Yes to all? (25) 9% No to all? (225) 80% Only to Zerg (7) 2% Only to Protoss (9) 3% Only to Zerg (0) 0% Only to Z and P (8) 3% Only to Z and T (4) 1% Only to P and T (4) 1% 282 total votes Your vote: Happy with Sept. 17 macro changes? (Vote): Yes to all?
(Vote): No to all?
(Vote): Only to Zerg
(Vote): Only to Protoss
(Vote): Only to Zerg
(Vote): Only to Z and P
(Vote): Only to Z and T
(Vote): Only to P and T
Poll: Which Version of Macro Boosters have you had the most Fun with?No Macro Boosters (Chrono, Mule, Inject Removed) (1029) 61% Fully Manual Macro (aka. HOTS Macro Boosters) (415) 24% Semi-Auto Macro (Current Patch) (252) 15% 1696 total votes Your vote: Which Version of Macro Boosters have you had the most Fun with? (Vote): Fully Manual Macro (aka. HOTS Macro Boosters)
(Vote): No Macro Boosters (Chrono, Mule, Inject Removed)
(Vote): Semi-Auto Macro (Current Patch)
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On September 28 2015 03:59 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2015 03:57 Hider wrote:What has SC2 been for you? I Well when I got into Sc2 I used to be obsessed about trying to improve. But when you - later on in life - try to play it casually, all of the design flaws of the game becomes obvious because it's so hard to get into some of the fun parts of the game (which are great micro interactions). The RTS genre still has gigantic potential imo and it's why I am very interested in this from a design discussion. That is something I can completely agree with on all terms. But that doesn't take away from the overall experience or makes the game mediocre in my eyes.
Well let me specifiy: It's mediocre relative to how good it could have been.
If for instance the game had great diversity, then I might argue that the game is decent.
If it also had both great divesity and great micro interaction, I would say the designers and the game were great.
If it had a low learning curve on top of that, I would argue that the designers are absolutely fantastic.
But given all of the flaws and unusued potential, it's hard for me to give the designers a grade better than mediocre/average.
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@"the dead RTS market": I need to point out that this is a perception that is not shared everywhere, because many people consider MOBAs strategy games. Which makes sense, both from looking at the origin of MOBAs (or ARTS as it used to be called) as well as the similar playerbase.
I also think it makes a ton of sense to put MOBA's into the RTS category. The reason is that I imagine that future RTS games will get much closer to that of MOBA's.
For instance imagine an objective focussed RTS game - like Project Atlas seem to be - with a focus on micro over macro.
What are the actual differences between that and a game like Heroes of the Storm?
In heroes of the storm there are AI monsters that attacks towers, but is that really a major difference? Couldn't we imagine that a future A-RTS could have some type of similar mechanic that protected your units when trying to push down an enemy position (similar to how minions work in MOBA's)?
So overall, I think the only real difference is that you typical just control one hero in a MOBA whereas you control multiple units in an RTS.
And even that might not also be a strict difference. If a future MOBA attempts to create a bit more "micro"-heroes (as Lost Vikings), will we still call it a MOBA then?
So I think that as the genres move closer to each other (as MOBAs move away from last-hitting) and RTS games moves towards less macro and more objective-focus, that MOBA's and RTS will be considered siblings rather than cousins.
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I don't think RTS and MOBAs are anything alike and I don't think they are moving closer together.
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On September 28 2015 04:20 Ansibled wrote:
I don't think RTS and MOBAs are anything alike and I don't think they are moving closer together.
Sick argumentationen that demonstrates you spend alot of time reading about Project Atlas.
/sarcasm.
And if you don't think Project Atlas (or that type of RTS game is the future) then you basically declare the genre dead since the old classical "macro-style" RTS has been tested and isn't working.
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So overall, I think the only real difference is that you typical just control one hero in a MOBA whereas you control multiple units in an RTS.
Yep and i don't see why mobas would want to increase the heroes which require multitasking tbh. There already are these heroes in dota and typically these are the ones who are barely picked. People in general don't like multitasking.
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Yep and i don't see why mobas would want to increase the heroes which require multitasking tbh. There already are these heroes in dota and typically these are the ones who are barely picked. People in general don't like multitasking.
Doens't neccasarily have to be multitasking, but could just be micro. I think MOBA's will and should do it as a long as its not something that's forced down onto the players.
Imagine if you could pick "control multiple heroes/units" at once as a strategical option in the customization proces of the hero.
I don't see any downside to that. Rather I just see it as a way to diversify the game while significantly increasing the skillcap.
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RTS and MOBAs are completely different genres, only brought together by the fact that the interface and control comes from it being the spawn of a UMS map for WC3. Gameplay-wise MOBAs have more in common with the duelling interface of Diablo than an RTS like SC2, with single unit control, items and neutral mobs.
On September 28 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2015 04:20 Ansibled wrote:
I don't think RTS and MOBAs are anything alike and I don't think they are moving closer together. And if you don't think Project Atlas (or that type of RTS game is the future) then you basically declare the genre dead since the old classical "macro-style" RTS has been tested and isn't working.
Genres of games have waves of popularity. In the late 90s and early 00s RTS's were super popular, but gradually declined when the market was oversaturated; this doesn't mean the genre is dead however. You can take a look at roguelikes and tactical squad-games for genres that suddenly reappeared from being basically stone dead for years, it just takes some good games to reignite passion for it. I mean lets face it, the last great RTS before SC2 was basically WC3, 7 years prior - noone has really bothered trying out the market after the decline in popularity about a decade ago. That the only big RTS being played is going in the micro direction due to current popularity of MOBAs means very little for how the genre will evolve since there's really nothing to compare with.
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Genres of games have waves of popularity. In the late 90s and early 00s RTS's were super popular, but gradually declined when the market was oversaturated; this doesn't mean the genre is dead however. You can take a look at roguelikes and tactical squad-games for genres that suddenly reappeared from being basically stone dead for years, it just takes some good games to reignite passion for it.
Yes, that's what I basically am saying. I am saying that gamedesigners need to make RTS games that appealrs to the current gaming audience, and that is definitely doable. But people don't enjoy mindless APM spams like macro and they don't enjoy an extremely high knowledge-learning barrier. Rather RTS games needs to focus more on micro interactions.
RTS and MOBAs are completely different genres, only brought together by the fact that the interface and control comes from it being the spawn of a UMS map for WC3. Gameplay-wise MOBAs have more in common with the duelling interface of Diablo than an RTS like SC2, with single unit control, items and neutral mobs.
Well first of all, the RTS genre and MOBA's are closer related than the FPS genre and MOBA/RTS's. I definitely felt that when I started playing MOBA's I had a huge advantage due to my click-accuracry being much higher than that of other newbies whereas I don't have such an advantage in games like CoD and CS:Go.
That makes MOBA and RTS related as cousins. The question is what will happen in the future? Will they move further or closer to each other?
As I wrote, the expected future focus on micro interactions of the RTS genre and the objective focus of the MOBA-genre will move the RTS and MOBA genre to brothers and sisters rather than cousins. Both genres will be about moving out on the map to secure an objective, and that objective will grant the team (player) an advantage.
Classical "build-a-base and spend lots of time macroing"-RTS games will die (or have already died) post LOTV. No game developer is gonna see any potential in that subgenre.
However, there is possibilites for the A-RTS genre, since previous A-RTS games have been ridicilously slow without any focus on micro interactions. As a consequence, they haven't been succesful.
But I believe that if competent designers works on such a project, they could potentially create a relatively easy-to-learn game with a high skillcap.
Thus in maybe 5-10 years there won't be a bigger difference between the most prominent RTS's and MOBA's than the difference between an A-RTS (I guess like Company of Heroes? or perhaps Warcraft 3) and a game like Starcraft 2 today.
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Because of this, we believe it's important to do what's best for the game in this situation, rather than going for a change that everyone wants
WTF?
This whole debacle where they tried macro mechanic changes and convinced us they were actually looking at changes only to revert them all back right before release totally stinks. They didn't give zeromus a chance, and they probably never intended to change macro mechanics but only string us along.
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On September 28 2015 03:57 Hider wrote:
Well when I got into Sc2 I used to be obsessed about trying to improve. When you are focussed on improving you think less about whether the core gameplay is fun or not.
However, today I really just wanna play a game more casually, and now all of the design flaws of the game becomes obvious because it's so hard to get into some of the fun parts of the game (which are great micro interactions).
Blizzard already made a game for you. They call it Heroes of the Storm, you should try. Its free and you can even play with your friends!
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On September 28 2015 06:30 Tiaraju9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2015 03:57 Hider wrote:
Well when I got into Sc2 I used to be obsessed about trying to improve. When you are focussed on improving you think less about whether the core gameplay is fun or not.
However, today I really just wanna play a game more casually, and now all of the design flaws of the game becomes obvious because it's so hard to get into some of the fun parts of the game (which are great micro interactions). Blizzard already made a game for you. They call it Heroes of the Storm, you should try. Its free and you can even play with your friends!
No they didn't, and I said this many times by now: The skillcap in that game is too low.
It's one of the biggest misconceptions in the community: That the skillcap exists to satisfy the top players.
No the skillcap is needed for the regular/decent player who wants to look up to pro's and be inspired by them.
That doesn't mean, however, that the regular player wants to spend many hours to attempt to get as good as the pro's. But he is interested in improving his skills without "going all in on it".
If you look at a game like League of Legends there are tons of silver-plat players who play all of the "high skil champs", even though they aren't very good of them.
Why is that the case? Because they like the feeling of outplaying their opponent, and they want to spend a bit of time learning the game to get better at those champions.
The least played champs in League of Legends - across all skill levels - are the easiest/simplest champions, which unfortunately is the types of designs Blizzard has implemented into Heroes of the Storm.
Check out my elaboration on the subject in this thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/493914-the-irony-of-skill-ceiling-discussions?page=2
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On September 28 2015 06:30 Tiaraju9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2015 03:57 Hider wrote:
Well when I got into Sc2 I used to be obsessed about trying to improve. When you are focussed on improving you think less about whether the core gameplay is fun or not.
However, today I really just wanna play a game more casually, and now all of the design flaws of the game becomes obvious because it's so hard to get into some of the fun parts of the game (which are great micro interactions). Blizzard already made a game for you. They call it Heroes of the Storm, you should try. Its free and you can even play with your friends!
why play a game that matches your interests when you can play a game instead that isn't for you but enables you to complain the shit out of the forums how everything about the game sucks and the game developers are incompetent?
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1 where I can download replays of lotv?
2 In LOTV is good strategy to use Bio Ball + liberators?
3 LOTV have collector's edition? and when it will be available?
4 where i can to download a replays from pro players (lotv and hots)?
5 TY
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On September 28 2015 06:51 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2015 06:30 Tiaraju9 wrote:On September 28 2015 03:57 Hider wrote:
Well when I got into Sc2 I used to be obsessed about trying to improve. When you are focussed on improving you think less about whether the core gameplay is fun or not.
However, today I really just wanna play a game more casually, and now all of the design flaws of the game becomes obvious because it's so hard to get into some of the fun parts of the game (which are great micro interactions). Blizzard already made a game for you. They call it Heroes of the Storm, you should try. Its free and you can even play with your friends! why play a game that matches your interests when you can play a game instead that isn't for you but enables you to complain the shit out of the forums how everything about the game sucks and the game developers are incompetent?
Seriosuly, what goes on your mind when you start writing. You've seen my previous threads where I advocated for the easy-to learn difficult to master approach and specifically mentioned Heroes of the Storm as a failure.
This concept is so simple, and I repeated it many times. No way you cannot have seen it by now, but yet you still seem imcapable of understanding it.
Let me give you an example. In the thread I referenced, I wrote this:
In a game like Heroes of the Storm, the expected win/rate of a highly skilled soloq player who plays against inferior opponents might be 55%-60%, whereas in other MOBA's it could be 60-65%. In a similar situation, the expected win/rate in CS GO might be 70%......
In order to motivate decent players to get even better, they need to be convinced that further investment into the game is worth it, and that's where a high skillcap is neccasary.
And you responded with this:
^this 100%
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And now you forgot what my stance is? (and the above situation wasn't the only time I commented on Heroes of the Storm. I done that multiple times).
How on earth can the easy-to-learn difficult to master concept be so difficult for you to understand? I am genuinly curiois. My theory is that you are either incredibly unintelligent or simply intentionally trolling now. (probably a combination).
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On September 28 2015 06:56 vAntD wrote:
1 where I can download replays of lotv?
2 In LOTV is good strategy to use Bio Ball + liberators?
3 LOTV have collector's edition? and when it will be available?
4 where i can to download a replays from pro players (lotv and hots)?
5 TY
1. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Replay_Websites. I doubt there are many good LotV ones up yet though.
2. At this stage it seems so, though nobody is close to figuring out the game yet, and the game is still going to be patched a lot.
3. Yes, it'll be available at launch, google for it and you can see what it includes.
4. Most pro players don't upload their replays. Some tournaments do though, including IEM, Dreamhack and WCS. Look through here and you'll see some: http://www.teamliquid.net/forumsearch.php?q=replays. They're all HotS, if you want to learn LotV you should watch streamers (check the right-hand sidebar and pick someone of your race).
5. TY is a strong player but unfortunately didn't make Blizzcon because he lost vs Byul in SSL and KT Rolster didn't want to send him to Dreamhack despite his strong proleague and invidual league performance this year. (:p)
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where i can download the replays of dremhack stockholm?
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A lot of page 10 on the "macro RTS" and the success of MOBAs is exactly what drove me to Company of Heroes 2.
I got sick of the boring macro and bad game design, CoH2 is a lot more intimate and micro-sensitive, lots of positioning etc. dare I say more like Brood War than SC2?
In some ways.
There are some bad things, it needs optimization and STILL DOESN'T HAVE CUSTOM HOTKEYS AFTER ALL THIS TIME, but through a COMMUNITY EFFORT we 'fought back' against lead designer Quinn Duffy and got the RNG bullshit plane crashes severely nerfed, stupid tank crits RNG saving them from death redesigned into fun things, and are getting flame RNG and AoE wiping squads RNG ALL pretty much fixed.
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EPT
