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On September 08 2015 01:23 DeadByDawn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 00:52 crazedrat wrote:The roach drop was a good bu ild on Lerilak. Alot of that is because Terrans tend to open early CC there; rarely do I see a 1 base opening, and it's hard to scout that map. Scouting shuts it down. You can react On September 06 2015 10:24 GGzerG wrote:On September 06 2015 07:45 crazedrat wrote:
ZvT now if you scout marine your only best bet seems like roach ling bane attack and hope they went bio instead of tanks. No, actually that just sounds like an all in. Orbitals are too strong. On September 07 2015 00:00 cheekymonkey wrote:
Why is chronoboost default set to auto-cast on the nexus when it's permanent?
I like the changes, but with mule now being a cooldown ability I don't like how it's restricted to 30 range from mineral patches. First of all, it makes no sense, it's called down from space. And being a cooldown ability already greatly reduces the overall efficiency of mass orbitals, so it's not necessary. Last but not least, they removed manner mules... You're worried about mass orbitals after your orbital just got buffed. Now you have free energy which translates into calldown supply, 120 minerals. Parse that value in with the MULE cycle and you're making 320 a minute over 270 with the original MULE and 240 with the autocast MULE. You also have free scans now and your orbitals have a casting range which can cover the natural and 3rd on most maps. Repositioning the 4th orbital is such a trivial concern. The orbitals got buffed this patch, while zerg lost a larvae and protoss lost the ability to focus a rush with chrono... terran got its orbital buffed. If Terran simply opens 3 orbitals right now they are well ahead. On September 06 2015 10:27 Lexender wrote:
1.- No longer can yo mass MULE in the lategame, so you need to have the same amount of workers all game long, also you can't mass orbitals for macro.
2.- The amount of resources is the same all game long since you will have 1 MULE per 1 base as opposed to having multiple MULES as the game goes.
3.- Tied in to 1, since you don't have macro orbitals you also can't simply planetary any base past the third, so you would have to choose between, planetaries for defense or orbitals for macro.
So these changes are a much bigger nerf to terran macro and expanding than it looks like.
1: You actually can mass orbitals, you just have to move the orbital in some cases. It takes about 30 seconds, the orbital has a huge range. It has a base worth of range. 2: During the early and midgame you actually have a resource buff now with free calldown supply and scan. You're making about 320 a cycle over 270, not 240. 3: You can actually drop mules at most 3rds from your natural, and worst case scenario you have to move an orbital. 4: All of what you say is focused on the late game, meanwhile Terran has been buffed stronger than ever before in the early game and the midgame - the most crucial part of the game. How is it really a buff? - vP you need all the energy for scans not depots.
- Scans are now 100. Best of luck if a DT gets in the base after scanning.
- OCs are now stuck at mineraless bases to mine gas and cannot call down mules at remote expansions.
- You cannot build lots of extra OCs and drop mules as you cannot place them close enough to the mineral patches.
If this is a buff then undo it and get me my HotS OCs back.
I play Zerg so the DTs are not something I'm thinking about. I'm thinking specifically how this effects the econ of Terran in ZvT, and it's a buff in that matchup for the reasons stated. I don't know about TvP, I'm not saying either way for that matchup.
On September 08 2015 03:04 cheekymonkey wrote:
The OC change is not a buff, it's a massive nerf. You're really delusional if you don't see that.
Nevertheless, the point still stands, you cannot save up 8 mules per OC with this change. Now it's only 1. This in itself clearly already a massive nerf to the mass mule lategame strategy. In addition to the reduced mule efficiency, the radius requirement is just a nerf on top of that, completely uneccessary IMO, at least until we can see how it works out without it.
The early game deserves more focus than the late game. It's a nerf late game; a fairly reasonable one, and a buff in the early game; while Zerg was nerfed in the early game. The opening favors Terran now quite alot in ZvT, especially 3 orbital openings. That is all.
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On September 08 2015 00:52 crazedrat wrote:
Parse that value in with the MULE cycle and you're making 320 a minute over 270 with the original MULE and 240 with the autocast MULE.
Note sure what you're saying here, but there's only one type of mule.
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On September 08 2015 03:13 cheekymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 00:52 crazedrat wrote:
Parse that value in with the MULE cycle and you're making 320 a minute over 270 with the original MULE and 240 with the autocast MULE. Note sure what you're saying here, but there's only one type of mule.
Net gains from an Orbital.
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On September 08 2015 03:08 crazedrat wrote:
The early game matters more than the late game. It's a nerf late game, and a buff in the early game; while Zerg was nerfed in the early game. The opening favors Terran now quite alot in ZvT, especially 3 orbital openings. That is all.
It is clearly a late game nerf. Don't treat it merely as an early game buff, which is kind of irrelevant for the discussion. The problem with TvZ is not the early game, it's the lategame with mass mule capabilities. The reason why it's irrelevant is that blizzard easily can tune the cooldown timer. You really don't have anything meaningful to contribute to the discussion if you're up in airs about the "early game buff" to terran here.
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The discussion is about balance. It's not irrelevant, it's a matter of balance. The orbital is stronger through the early mid game. AND Zerg is down a larvae. Meaning if you open 3 CC, you are ahead alot. You can afford to produce alot of marines now. You apply more pressure. Zerg drones less. Zerg has to make more units. Zerg has more trouble holding bases. Overall you move into the mid late game with an advantage. A failure in scouting is punished harder as well. If you don't scout 3 orbital, you will be further behind. The timings attacks are now sharper, because Terran can afford more and Zerg is weakened in defending them. So it's more of a commitment dealing with those also.
Overall it's too many minerals and too volatile. Zerg either needs a larvae back or the MULE needs to be slightly nerfed. Like... 30 minerals returned, something around there.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
Just remove mules and put scan/supply drop energy back down again. Maybe even make them cooldown based
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On September 08 2015 04:39 Cyro wrote:
Just remove mules and put scan/supply drop energy back down again. Maybe even make them cooldown based
I'm with mule removal but making scans based on cooldown is horrible. It will be much harder to fight DTS with cool down scans.
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They should just make the raven the core of terran detection. With the mule not costing energy it is not interesting in any way to have scans for detection to begin with.
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On September 08 2015 04:51 Big J wrote:
They should just make the raven the core of terran detection. With the mule not costing energy it is not interesting in any way to have scans for detection to begin with.
Raven needs speed increase to be a good detector. I think testing speed increase to be on par with Liberator or Roach (after speed upgrade) won't harm.
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On September 08 2015 04:39 Cyro wrote:
Just remove mules and put scan/supply drop energy back down again. Maybe even make them cooldown based
They will not do this - they do not want to enter months of unit and building balancing after the removal of the Mule (and other associated macro boosters). They saw what happened to T (and to a lesser extent P) when they did this so they quickly reinstated the macro boosters.
Scan cool down would also guarantee DT damage.
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On September 08 2015 04:52 WrathSCII wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 04:51 Big J wrote:
They should just make the raven the core of terran detection. With the mule not costing energy it is not interesting in any way to have scans for detection to begin with. Raven needs speed increase to be a good detector. I think testing speed increase to be on par with Liberator or Roach (after speed upgrade) won't harm.
Considering the nerfs to the Raven then this is the least that they can do to make the Raven relevant again. However, with the cost of scan now it seems that Raven may come back into more usage simply as a safeguard, not because they are good value. I have not made a Raven (outside of TvT) for a long time.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
They will not do this - they do not want to enter months of unit and building balancing after the removal of the Mule (and other associated macro boosters). They saw what happened to T (and to a lesser extent P) when they did this so they quickly reinstated the macro boosters
That's what extended 9 month beta is for. They shouldn't have removed them in the first place (and reinstated different, weirder versions of them for all 3 races) if they were not planning on causing any balance upset.
In fact they've actively messed up core mechanics that already worked for no real benefit. Chrono got nerfed to hell (and transitioned into general power through 24/7 operation rather than being able to select what you wanted to be sped up by 2.5x as much)
it also got way more awkward (mechanically) to use, as now you can't use a hotkey to use it, you have to manually move the screen to a nexus, click the nexus, hit c and then move the screen over to what you want to chrono boost and click on it.
Before you could just hit 5-c-shiftclickclickclickclickclick and chrono 5 things using the nexus hotkey without having your camera on anything but production.
Everyone hates new chrono, a ton of people hate new orbital. There was little benefit to taking a big chunk of testing time to change HOTS mechanics to these ones. Zerg auto-inject and raised back to queens providing more larvae than hatcheries again is a whole other bag of worms
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On September 08 2015 05:06 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +They will not do this - they do not want to enter months of unit and building balancing after the removal of the Mule (and other associated macro boosters). They saw what happened to T (and to a lesser extent P) when they did this so they quickly reinstated the macro boosters That's what extended 9 month beta is for. They shouldn't have removed them in the first place (and reinstated different, weirder versions of them for all 3 races) if they were not planning on causing any balance upset. ...
Yes, that is what has upset so many people. This level of change that ripples through every matchup, every unit/building/upgrade cost and time, it was something that could only be done at the start of the beta.Now with a release this year (Nov?), and having to create a gold master of the game before release, they cannot make these big changes.
When LotV releases the competitive scene has to switch as well to maintain/generate interest, so the game must release in a kind of balanced state. It can be updated later but it cannot release in a completely unbalanced state - so what the hell were they thinking when they made these changes so late!
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On September 08 2015 05:43 DeadByDawn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 05:06 Cyro wrote:They will not do this - they do not want to enter months of unit and building balancing after the removal of the Mule (and other associated macro boosters). They saw what happened to T (and to a lesser extent P) when they did this so they quickly reinstated the macro boosters That's what extended 9 month beta is for. They shouldn't have removed them in the first place (and reinstated different, weirder versions of them for all 3 races) if they were not planning on causing any balance upset. ... Yes, that is what has upset so many people. This level of change that ripples through every matchup, every unit/building/upgrade cost and time, it was something that could only be done at the start of the beta.Now with a release this year (Nov?), and having to create a gold master of the game before release, they cannot make these big changes. When LotV releases the competitive scene has to switch as well to maintain/generate interest, so the game must release in a kind of balanced state. It can be updated later but it cannot release in a completely unbalanced state - so what the hell were they thinking when they made these changes so late!
Games are released completely broken all the time. As long as they keep on supporting the game I'm fine with them releasing the game in whatever fucked up state they want. But I guess I'm kind of the minority with that opinion.
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On September 08 2015 05:49 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 05:43 DeadByDawn wrote:On September 08 2015 05:06 Cyro wrote:They will not do this - they do not want to enter months of unit and building balancing after the removal of the Mule (and other associated macro boosters). They saw what happened to T (and to a lesser extent P) when they did this so they quickly reinstated the macro boosters That's what extended 9 month beta is for. They shouldn't have removed them in the first place (and reinstated different, weirder versions of them for all 3 races) if they were not planning on causing any balance upset. ... Yes, that is what has upset so many people. This level of change that ripples through every matchup, every unit/building/upgrade cost and time, it was something that could only be done at the start of the beta.Now with a release this year (Nov?), and having to create a gold master of the game before release, they cannot make these big changes. When LotV releases the competitive scene has to switch as well to maintain/generate interest, so the game must release in a kind of balanced state. It can be updated later but it cannot release in a completely unbalanced state - so what the hell were they thinking when they made these changes so late! Games are released completely broken all the time. As long as they keep on supporting the game I'm fine with them releasing the game in whatever fucked up state they want. But I guess I'm kind of the minority with that opinion.
I don't mind so much either. But as I mentioned the pro scene will likely switch too and there people will win/lose money because of the balance of the game. If the balance is way off then that would be a disgrace. Though of course that happened during early WoL (T advantage), late WoL (Zerg advantage) and HotS (Protoss advantage).
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Haven't played in ages, got about 30 games in this weekend and is it just me or are Adepts really good vs Terran?
Like, Reeaally good. No, like reeeaaally.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
Now with a release this year (Nov?), and having to create a gold master of the game before release, they cannot make these big changes.
They have to, they released an extended 9 month beta then wasted most of the first half of it IMO.
It's way better to delay the game for 3-6 months and actually get it right than to launch in an unchanged state - we'll still be playing LOTV in 2020, so when do you propose they make these changes? Never?
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On September 08 2015 06:10 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Now with a release this year (Nov?), and having to create a gold master of the game before release, they cannot make these big changes. They have to, they released an extended 9 month beta then wasted most of the first half of it IMO. It's way better to delay the game for 3-6 months and actually get it right than to launch in an unchanged state - we'll still be playing LOTV in 2020, so when do you propose they make these changes? Never?
I don't think that they wasted the whole of the beta so far - there are some really nice things coming in LotV. What I mean is that with the tweaked macro economy they should still be able to get the game into some semblance of balance before release. Then they can patch the hell out of it - and TBH I think that at release, or soon after, we will have the best RTS available but not the best RTS possible and I am really looking forward to it.
The next balance patch will show if they are going to fix the economy and balance around it or leave the current economy and balance around that.
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On September 08 2015 06:03 Rowrin wrote:
Haven't played in ages, got about 30 games in this weekend and is it just me or are Adepts really good vs Terran?
Like, Reeaally good. No, like reeeaaally.
Yep. They are not unstoppable but the defence has to be executed so much better than the attack and that is just plain unfair.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
I don't think that they wasted the whole of the beta so far
The entire beta so far is coming up to the length of the HOTS beta and they did very little in comparison at the start. They did a lot now but where were these changes 2-3 months ago - now everyone is crying that it's too late to make serious changes
on the last beta for the last expansion the game will ever see, and after this is over nobody will want significant changes to the economy, macro mechanics or anything else. When serious changes were not made in HOTS to those things, everyone said wait for LOTV, it'll be fine. We waited for LOTV, it's not fine.
Yep. They are not unstoppable but the defence has to be executed so much better than the attack and that is just plain unfair.
High lvl terrans are not having much trouble meeting my adept play when doing relatively sane openings. The people going straight tank drop, reactor liberator or 3 CC tend to die, if you go rax-rax-cc-factory or any other similar opening (like the protoss going gate-gate-nexus-robo) then it's mostly fine.
It makes me wonder what openings people are doing when they complain, because @ master MMR i still see a lot of very silly openings against a protoss who drops 2 gates before nexus or cyber core when it's extremely easily scouted
Econ/adept plays only need one gas too, yet nobody checks it. Actually, i can't remember the last time a terran scanned me before i had 40 probes. The info that they do see (2 gate before cyber or nexus) isn't used - So i don't feel bad for those half of terrans with the bad openings that take an economy/tech lead and then die.
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