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On September 09 2015 05:08 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2015 05:06 cheekymonkey wrote:
One solution, although kind of awkward, would be to simply give auto-inject a delay. So that a queen would not inject the moment it was possible, but in about 10 seconds or so. This way the people who don't have the time to inject optimally will even have more energy on their queens for transfuses and creep tumors in the long run. Pros can still inject perfectly as they please, and will do significantly better than people who don't. I don't like those kinds of fixes. If they want to get rid of forcing the player to call in their macro mechanics they should go full on one way or the other. I don't like dipping your toe in there. LotV should give players the toolset and framework to show off their skills in other ways if Blizzard removes the necessity of macro mechanics. I'd prefer no macro mechanics or complete (HotS) macro mechanics than a half measure macro mechanic.
Then how is the new muling mechanic and the chronoboost change not half measures? The radius requirement, and only auto-mule on the closest mineral patch is terrible for optimal muling, and really an awkward change in itself. Chronoboosting your nexus on default is pretty bad for optimal macro. So why should auto-inject be optimal?
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On September 09 2015 05:14 cheekymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2015 05:08 Tenks wrote:On September 09 2015 05:06 cheekymonkey wrote:
One solution, although kind of awkward, would be to simply give auto-inject a delay. So that a queen would not inject the moment it was possible, but in about 10 seconds or so. This way the people who don't have the time to inject optimally will even have more energy on their queens for transfuses and creep tumors in the long run. Pros can still inject perfectly as they please, and will do significantly better than people who don't. I don't like those kinds of fixes. If they want to get rid of forcing the player to call in their macro mechanics they should go full on one way or the other. I don't like dipping your toe in there. LotV should give players the toolset and framework to show off their skills in other ways if Blizzard removes the necessity of macro mechanics. I'd prefer no macro mechanics or complete (HotS) macro mechanics than a half measure macro mechanic. Then how is the new muling mechanic and the chronoboost change not half measures? The radius requirement, and only auto-mule on the closest mineral patch is terrible for optimal muling, and really an awkward change in itself. Chronoboosting your nexus on default is pretty bad for optimal macro. So why should auto-inject be optimal?
Chronoboost is optimal, because it has been averaged out. It is actually nerfed in the way that you can't pre-store energy and then chrono a thing for it's whole duration to get 50% faster production for that thing, and 0% for everything else. You now get continuously 20%. 20% when you would have stored, 20% for the thing itself. It makes Protoss less binary, but still keeps the nice effects of chronoboosts in the game. And outside of rushes, you wouldn't do the store+burst out chronos perfectly anyways, so it isn't that different for things like upgrades.
The only thing that is left that is "kind of worse" than for the other two is that it still requires quite some management.
Auto-mule is just badly implemented at the moment. There would be simple solutions to the "always mule the closest patch", if blizzard would give a conditionbased trigger a try. E.g.: Cast on the closest patch without a mule on it (given that the first mule should barely live when the second one is casted). Which would be good enough and still a thousand times better than manual muling.
Auto-inject suffers similarily in a way: You cannot prevent the first inject and put down a creep tumor or store energy for transfusions. And you need extra micro to prevent a queen from injecting in a situation in which you wouldn't want to when it stands next to a hatch. A simple solution would be to only let queens autoinject if they aren't on a different order and have been idle for like 1-2seconds.
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Pylons completely change the opening in PvZ. Can't take a very fast 3rd except on 2 maps, ruins and bridgehead... assuming you scout right. Macro hatch or open gas. As if adepts were not strong... 25 energy overcharged pylons at the 3rd off 1 gateway 1 gas nexus. 4 of maps I'm opening speed or some early pressure... previously it was fast 3rd every map.
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On September 09 2015 06:37 Big J wrote:Chronoboost is optimal, because it has been averaged out. It is actually nerfed in the way that you can't pre-store energy and then chrono a thing for it's whole duration to get 50% faster production for that thing, and 0% for everything else. You now get continuously 20%. 20% when you would have stored, 20% for the thing itself. It makes Protoss less binary, but still keeps the nice effects of chronoboosts in the game. And outside of rushes, you wouldn't do the store+burst out chronos perfectly anyways, so it isn't that different for things like upgrades.
Not sure what you're point is, but what I'm saying is that protosses will want to chrono buildings other than their nexuses. Hence chronoboost is not "full on" automated.
On September 09 2015 06:37 Big J wrote:
Auto-mule is just badly implemented at the moment. There would be simple solutions to the "always mule the closest patch", if blizzard would give a conditionbased trigger a try. E.g.: Cast on the closest patch without a mule on it (given that the first mule should barely live when the second one is casted). Which would be good enough and still a thousand times better than manual muling.
This doesn't fix the inability to auto-mule patches on different bases. You always want to mule your latest acquired expansion. Auto-muling your main while having a third is terrible. It should really just auto-mule whatever patch your rally point is set on. But if you're not sure whether it's in 30 range this becomes hopelessly awkward. If you turn it off, then you're losing minerals every second the cooldown timer is done. But I agree, it's obviously badly implemented.
On September 09 2015 06:37 Big J wrote:
Auto-inject suffers similarily in a way: You cannot prevent the first inject and put down a creep tumor or store energy for transfusions. And you need extra micro to prevent a queen from injecting in a situation in which you wouldn't want to when it stands next to a hatch. A simple solution would be to only let queens autoinject if they aren't on a different order and have been idle for like 1-2seconds.
A better solution (for your first point) would be to be given the option to disable auto-inject from the menu (for all games) so that you'd have to manually put them on auto-inject, just like for the automated worker starts.
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On September 09 2015 07:12 cheekymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2015 06:37 Big J wrote:Chronoboost is optimal, because it has been averaged out. It is actually nerfed in the way that you can't pre-store energy and then chrono a thing for it's whole duration to get 50% faster production for that thing, and 0% for everything else. You now get continuously 20%. 20% when you would have stored, 20% for the thing itself. It makes Protoss less binary, but still keeps the nice effects of chronoboosts in the game. And outside of rushes, you wouldn't do the store+burst out chronos perfectly anyways, so it isn't that different for things like upgrades. Not sure what you're point is, but what I'm saying is that protosses will want to chrono buildings other than their nexuses. Hence chronoboost is not "full on" automated.
Ah yeah, that's what I was saying too. I thought you complained about the chronoboost starting on the nexus for some reason being a drawback when you want to switch it. You're completely right on that, the chronoboost is not automated at all, it's only extended.
On September 09 2015 07:12 cheekymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2015 06:37 Big J wrote:
Auto-mule is just badly implemented at the moment. There would be simple solutions to the "always mule the closest patch", if blizzard would give a conditionbased trigger a try. E.g.: Cast on the closest patch without a mule on it (given that the first mule should barely live when the second one is casted). Which would be good enough and still a thousand times better than manual muling.
This doesn't fix the inability to auto-mule patches on different bases. You always want to mule your latest acquired expansion. Auto-muling your main while having a third is terrible. It should really just auto-mule whatever patch your rally point is set on. But if you're not sure whether it's in 30 range this becomes hopelessly awkward. If you turn it off, then you're losing minerals every second the cooldown timer is done. But I agree, it's obviously badly implemented.
Hardly any automation is ever perfect in every single way. Is it good enough to balance around it? Or will people turn it off and do it manually instead? I believe the first one is the case - at least if they would deal with the issue of mining out a single patch very fast -, hence the patch fullfills its purpose.
On September 09 2015 07:12 cheekymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2015 06:37 Big J wrote:
Auto-inject suffers similarily in a way: You cannot prevent the first inject and put down a creep tumor or store energy for transfusions. And you need extra micro to prevent a queen from injecting in a situation in which you wouldn't want to when it stands next to a hatch. A simple solution would be to only let queens autoinject if they aren't on a different order and have been idle for like 1-2seconds. A better solution (for your first point) would be to be given the option to disable auto-inject from the menu (for all games) so that you'd have to manually put them on auto-inject, just like for the automated worker starts.
I don't like the menu changing the AI behavior. AI should always be the same, so that you and your opponent knows what they are dealing with.
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On September 09 2015 07:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2015 07:12 cheekymonkey wrote:On September 09 2015 06:37 Big J wrote:
Auto-mule is just badly implemented at the moment. There would be simple solutions to the "always mule the closest patch", if blizzard would give a conditionbased trigger a try. E.g.: Cast on the closest patch without a mule on it (given that the first mule should barely live when the second one is casted). Which would be good enough and still a thousand times better than manual muling.
This doesn't fix the inability to auto-mule patches on different bases. You always want to mule your latest acquired expansion. Auto-muling your main while having a third is terrible. It should really just auto-mule whatever patch your rally point is set on. But if you're not sure whether it's in 30 range this becomes hopelessly awkward. If you turn it off, then you're losing minerals every second the cooldown timer is done. But I agree, it's obviously badly implemented. Hardly any automation is ever perfect in every single way. Is it good enough to balance around it? Or will people turn it off and do it manually instead? I believe the first one is the case - at least if they would deal with the issue of mining out a single patch very fast -, hence the patch fullfills its purpose.
That's another good point, mining out a single patch quickly, as well as muling your main is really bad. It might be tweaked so that it mules uniformly across the patches, but this is kind of an odd fix.
On September 09 2015 07:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2015 07:12 cheekymonkey wrote:On September 09 2015 06:37 Big J wrote:
Auto-inject suffers similarily in a way: You cannot prevent the first inject and put down a creep tumor or store energy for transfusions. And you need extra micro to prevent a queen from injecting in a situation in which you wouldn't want to when it stands next to a hatch. A simple solution would be to only let queens autoinject if they aren't on a different order and have been idle for like 1-2seconds. A better solution (for your first point) would be to be given the option to disable auto-inject from the menu (for all games) so that you'd have to manually put them on auto-inject, just like for the automated worker starts. I don't like the menu changing the AI behavior. AI should always be the same, so that you and your opponent knows what they are dealing with.
Right now you can turn the automated worker start off. I don't see any reason why this should not be an option, practically every player above a certain rank would have it off anyway. Everything which has an auto-cast on by default should be an option IMO. This way no one have to deal with stupid AI behavior against their will when there's an easy solution which no one suffers from.
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On September 09 2015 08:32 cheekymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2015 07:45 Big J wrote:On September 09 2015 07:12 cheekymonkey wrote:On September 09 2015 06:37 Big J wrote:
Auto-mule is just badly implemented at the moment. There would be simple solutions to the "always mule the closest patch", if blizzard would give a conditionbased trigger a try. E.g.: Cast on the closest patch without a mule on it (given that the first mule should barely live when the second one is casted). Which would be good enough and still a thousand times better than manual muling.
This doesn't fix the inability to auto-mule patches on different bases. You always want to mule your latest acquired expansion. Auto-muling your main while having a third is terrible. It should really just auto-mule whatever patch your rally point is set on. But if you're not sure whether it's in 30 range this becomes hopelessly awkward. If you turn it off, then you're losing minerals every second the cooldown timer is done. But I agree, it's obviously badly implemented. Hardly any automation is ever perfect in every single way. Is it good enough to balance around it? Or will people turn it off and do it manually instead? I believe the first one is the case - at least if they would deal with the issue of mining out a single patch very fast -, hence the patch fullfills its purpose. That's another good point, mining out a single patch quickly, as well as muling your main is really bad. It might be tweaked so that it mules uniformly across the patches, but this is kind of an odd fix. Show nested quote +On September 09 2015 07:45 Big J wrote:On September 09 2015 07:12 cheekymonkey wrote:On September 09 2015 06:37 Big J wrote:
Auto-inject suffers similarily in a way: You cannot prevent the first inject and put down a creep tumor or store energy for transfusions. And you need extra micro to prevent a queen from injecting in a situation in which you wouldn't want to when it stands next to a hatch. A simple solution would be to only let queens autoinject if they aren't on a different order and have been idle for like 1-2seconds. A better solution (for your first point) would be to be given the option to disable auto-inject from the menu (for all games) so that you'd have to manually put them on auto-inject, just like for the automated worker starts. I don't like the menu changing the AI behavior. AI should always be the same, so that you and your opponent knows what they are dealing with. Right now you can turn the automated worker start off. I don't see any reason why this should not be an option, practically every player above a certain rank would have it off anyway. Everything which has an auto-cast on by default should be an option IMO. This way no one have to deal with stupid AI behavior against their will when there's an easy solution which no one suffers from.
Dat elitism tho.
I'm so incredibly awesome that I turn off my medivac's auto-cast. I manually heal. Manual. Heal.
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Sometimes the game actually starts late for players which is one reason the worker autocast was added. When the game starts you'll find the workers are already moving at times. It's not 'gosu' or even good to turn the autocast off.
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1138 Posts
On September 04 2015 07:37 Big J wrote:If drops are not good enough later on I believe they should tinker with overlord speed, which is currently slower than unstimmed marines (after the speed upgrade).
As they should be. They're overlords not foot soldiers. Do you actually think your overlords, which give supply and 13 vision, should move as fast as combat units?
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On September 09 2015 15:10 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2015 07:37 Big J wrote:On September 04 2015 07:29 Tuczniak wrote:
So what's your opinion Big J? If drops are not good enough later on I believe they should tinker with overlord speed, which is currently slower than unstimmed marines (after the speed upgrade). As they should be. They're overlords not foot soldiers. Do you actually think your overlords, which give supply and 13 vision, should move as fast as combat units?
You are right. My preferred option would be to remove overlord drops completely and give zerg a dedicated, strong drop unit. E.g. they could remove the two semi-useful spells from the overseer and give it the ability to drop instead and increase the cost for them.
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On September 09 2015 09:14 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2015 08:32 cheekymonkey wrote:On September 09 2015 07:45 Big J wrote:On September 09 2015 07:12 cheekymonkey wrote:On September 09 2015 06:37 Big J wrote:
Auto-mule is just badly implemented at the moment. There would be simple solutions to the "always mule the closest patch", if blizzard would give a conditionbased trigger a try. E.g.: Cast on the closest patch without a mule on it (given that the first mule should barely live when the second one is casted). Which would be good enough and still a thousand times better than manual muling.
This doesn't fix the inability to auto-mule patches on different bases. You always want to mule your latest acquired expansion. Auto-muling your main while having a third is terrible. It should really just auto-mule whatever patch your rally point is set on. But if you're not sure whether it's in 30 range this becomes hopelessly awkward. If you turn it off, then you're losing minerals every second the cooldown timer is done. But I agree, it's obviously badly implemented. Hardly any automation is ever perfect in every single way. Is it good enough to balance around it? Or will people turn it off and do it manually instead? I believe the first one is the case - at least if they would deal with the issue of mining out a single patch very fast -, hence the patch fullfills its purpose. That's another good point, mining out a single patch quickly, as well as muling your main is really bad. It might be tweaked so that it mules uniformly across the patches, but this is kind of an odd fix. On September 09 2015 07:45 Big J wrote:On September 09 2015 07:12 cheekymonkey wrote:On September 09 2015 06:37 Big J wrote:
Auto-inject suffers similarily in a way: You cannot prevent the first inject and put down a creep tumor or store energy for transfusions. And you need extra micro to prevent a queen from injecting in a situation in which you wouldn't want to when it stands next to a hatch. A simple solution would be to only let queens autoinject if they aren't on a different order and have been idle for like 1-2seconds. A better solution (for your first point) would be to be given the option to disable auto-inject from the menu (for all games) so that you'd have to manually put them on auto-inject, just like for the automated worker starts. I don't like the menu changing the AI behavior. AI should always be the same, so that you and your opponent knows what they are dealing with. Right now you can turn the automated worker start off. I don't see any reason why this should not be an option, practically every player above a certain rank would have it off anyway. Everything which has an auto-cast on by default should be an option IMO. This way no one have to deal with stupid AI behavior against their will when there's an easy solution which no one suffers from. Dat elitism tho. I'm so incredibly awesome that I turn off my medivac's auto-cast. I manually heal. Manual. Heal.
On September 09 2015 12:55 crazedrat wrote:
Sometimes the game actually starts late for players which is one reason the worker autocast was added. When the game starts you'll find the workers are already moving at times. It's not 'gosu' or even good to turn the autocast off.
Two things you're misunderstanding. 1) I'm talking about auto-inject. 2) I'm talking about toggling off an option "queens start with auto-inject". That doesn't mean that you don't put it on.
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On September 09 2015 02:34 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2015 02:07 Big J wrote:On September 09 2015 01:53 The_Red_Viper wrote:It isn't only important that the game is hard enough, it is rather important that it is hard enough in a lot of different areas. The removal of manual injects doesn't achieve this goal though. Where should attention go. And people just have different opinions on this topic. Attention should go wherever the player wants it to go (so we have players with vastly different playstyles) The best case scenario would be a game where you can specialize on macro OR micro (and anything in between) Removing macro requirements does balance the skewed macro:micro relation of the game a bit to become more equal. I know you hold the stance that instead of taking away from the macro side, they should add to the micro side. And I believe that is a valid opinion. But I'm not sure how this could be achieved. Changes to unit-control only go that far, you're still going to lose to someone who hit his injects better and made 15 extra roaches, even if your roaches now have 0damage point and you do fancy burrow micro and all that nice stuff. I'm of the opinion that things in the game should be "equally strong" to begin with. Because that's what makes you make decisions. And inject for 25energy on a T1-150/0/2 spellcaster simply is better than abduct, blinding cloud, parasitic bomb, spawn IT, fungal growth, neural parasite and so on and so on. See i mostly talk abot larva inject cause i think reducing the efficiency of the macro mechanics was a good decision. (even though i think automatic chrono and mules is questionable too) But when we look at injects i get the feeling that blizzard pretty much removed the terran/toss equivalent of building units in time. Terran and Toss still have to do this (yes there are queues, but still), if you don't build the marines in time you simply will have less army and bad macro. While there still is some of that for zerg (mostly workers though tbh, sometimes timings) you simply always have the larva you need to mass produce your units no matter what. So i definitely see a macro problem for zerg, macro is simply too trivial with zerg right now. Add to this that zerg always was the race which could a move to victory (kinda) and you will see that the inject change created huge balance problems too. Toss and Terran are in a good spot i think (even though i still would prefer harder macro in general) but zerg is a joke imo.
I play Zerg and I feel exactly the same as you. It's both unfair to protoss and terran which have not being made easier and boring to me how easier Zerg has become, and it will be a nightmare to balance. We are going to see a lot of pro Zerg player playing at high level given they will all have the same injects mechanics. Creep spread might different them, but except in ZvT it is not so important in the game to have insanely good creep spread, and anyway, everyone will get better at it. Strategies might differentiate them for a while, but in the end everything will be more or less map downed. Micro and Multitask will probably be the main differentiate parameter between Zerg player, but in the end when all your attention is focused on it everyone will be good at it.
So in the end, what I was trying to say is that there will be a shit lot of Zerg with apparent similar level, and if you balance the game so Zerg is not over-represented in leagues, it will result to Zerg being a bit underpowered and the highest level Zerg will get fucked by it. If you balance the game so at the highest level is balanced and fair, you'll get a lot of Zerg in every leagues like infestor-BroodLord area (which was both too strong and too easy to get) and a *vZ fest in Plat-Diam-Master ladder.
@Big J : The_Red_Viper summed up more or less what I think. You say that this changed of macro mechanics, even though not desired by korean player, was a response from Blizzard to answer the complaints from said Korean players that the amount of micro/abilities was not manageable: They made macro easier so more time/actions can be given to micro and multi-tasking. Although it is (personally) a direction I would not like the game to take, it's an acceptable position in principle. In practice, it is a complete failure: Terran might have become, with auto-cast mules, only slightly easier, Chronoboost, funny enough, seems to be a bit more difficult, and Zerg is a shit ton easier.
And I completely disagree when you said that inject was not interesting, please do not speak for everyone here. It is a valid and respectable opinion, but do not pretend that it is one that is shared by everyone.
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On September 09 2015 17:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2015 15:10 DemigodcelpH wrote:On September 04 2015 07:37 Big J wrote:On September 04 2015 07:29 Tuczniak wrote:
So what's your opinion Big J? If drops are not good enough later on I believe they should tinker with overlord speed, which is currently slower than unstimmed marines (after the speed upgrade). As they should be. They're overlords not foot soldiers. Do you actually think your overlords, which give supply and 13 vision, should move as fast as combat units? You are right. My preferred option would be to remove overlord drops completely and give zerg a dedicated, strong drop unit. E.g. they could remove the two semi-useful spells from the overseer and give it the ability to drop instead and increase the cost for them.
maybe a 100/100 zero supply costing "unit" that can transport your whole army but can't move?
perhaps they could just find a way to better balance the cost / reward for nydus (like making it 50/50 that builds almost instantly but can only transport 8 supply)
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So why don't just give Overseers drop capability? Makes sense to me, they are upgraded overlords. Could also remove the dumb contaminate spell, if that thing is still in the game (haven't seen it in ages).
If it's too good in early game then make them cost more or Lair tech?
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Worst patch notes i've ever seen. They are just reverting everything to HoTs, but with an autocast feature.
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On September 09 2015 19:30 Salteador Neo wrote:
So why don't just give Overseers drop capability? Makes sense to me, they are upgraded overlords. Could also remove the dumb contaminate spell, if that thing is still in the game (haven't seen it in ages).
If it's too good in early game then make them cost more or Lair tech?
Mmmh let's consider this, this change would imply that
* drop a lair tech.
* oviedrop cost twice
* drop faster as overseer are faster than overlord
* you can't fake that you have drop with overlord.
I think I would like this.
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On September 09 2015 19:00 y0su wrote:
maybe a 100/100 zero supply costing "unit" that can transport your whole army but can't move?
ahaha, described like that, the nydus sounds like a completely nonsensical unit. 
Let's make a dropship! But it costs NO SUPPLY!! And it can carry INFINITELY MANY UNITS!! That makes it very powerful, so we counter that by making it reaaally slow! In fact, it CAN'T MOVE AT ALL!!!
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On September 09 2015 18:52 Vanadiel wrote:
@Big J : The_Red_Viper summed up more or less what I think. You say that this changed of macro mechanics, even though not desired by korean player, was a response from Blizzard to answer the complaints from said Korean players that the amount of micro/abilities was not manageable: They made macro easier so more time/actions can be given to micro and multi-tasking. Although it is (personally) a direction I would not like the game to take, it's an acceptable position in principle. In practice, it is a complete failure: Terran might have become, with auto-cast mules, only slightly easier, Chronoboost, funny enough, seems to be a bit more difficult, and Zerg is a shit ton easier.
And I completely disagree when you said that inject was not interesting, please do not speak for everyone here. It is a valid and respectable opinion, but do not pretend that it is one that is shared by everyone.
I respect your and his opinion, but I don't feel obligated to respond to that argument anymore, because I have done so in the past. The tldr of it is that I don't think the HotS situation is equally hard in the macro and difficulty of fundamental asyemtric features and strategies is balanced through overall balance.
I'm not speaking for everyone here. It's my opinion, even if I don't add "in my opinion" to every sentence. Same goes obviously vis-verca when you state things like
In practice, it is a complete failure: Terran might have become, with auto-cast mules, only slightly easier, Chronoboost, funny enough, seems to be a bit more difficult, and Zerg is a shit ton easier.
That's also just your opinion, even if you do not imply a phrase specifiying it.
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On September 09 2015 19:00 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2015 17:47 Big J wrote:On September 09 2015 15:10 DemigodcelpH wrote:On September 04 2015 07:37 Big J wrote:On September 04 2015 07:29 Tuczniak wrote:
So what's your opinion Big J? If drops are not good enough later on I believe they should tinker with overlord speed, which is currently slower than unstimmed marines (after the speed upgrade). As they should be. They're overlords not foot soldiers. Do you actually think your overlords, which give supply and 13 vision, should move as fast as combat units? You are right. My preferred option would be to remove overlord drops completely and give zerg a dedicated, strong drop unit. E.g. they could remove the two semi-useful spells from the overseer and give it the ability to drop instead and increase the cost for them. maybe a 100/100 zero supply costing "unit" that can transport your whole army but can't move? perhaps they could just find a way to better balance the cost / reward for nydus (like making it 50/50 that builds almost instantly but can only transport 8 supply)
Doomdrops, Nydus and 20zealot in your base warpins are the dark side of transportation. I hope that therefore nydus stays as gimmicky/situational/weak as it is in HotS. Unless they redesign it. Your suggestions sounds very interesting.
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On September 09 2015 20:12 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2015 18:52 Vanadiel wrote:
@Big J : The_Red_Viper summed up more or less what I think. You say that this changed of macro mechanics, even though not desired by korean player, was a response from Blizzard to answer the complaints from said Korean players that the amount of micro/abilities was not manageable: They made macro easier so more time/actions can be given to micro and multi-tasking. Although it is (personally) a direction I would not like the game to take, it's an acceptable position in principle. In practice, it is a complete failure: Terran might have become, with auto-cast mules, only slightly easier, Chronoboost, funny enough, seems to be a bit more difficult, and Zerg is a shit ton easier.
And I completely disagree when you said that inject was not interesting, please do not speak for everyone here. It is a valid and respectable opinion, but do not pretend that it is one that is shared by everyone. I respect your and his opinion, but I don't feel obligated to respond to that argument anymore, because I have done so in the past. The tldr of it is that I don't think the HotS situation is equally hard in the macro and difficulty of fundamental asyemtric features and strategies is balanced through overall balance. I'm not speaking for everyone here. It's my opinion, even if I don't add "in my opinion" to every sentence. Same goes obviously vis-verca when you state things like Show nested quote +In practice, it is a complete failure: Terran might have become, with auto-cast mules, only slightly easier, Chronoboost, funny enough, seems to be a bit more difficult, and Zerg is a shit ton easier. That's also just your opinion, even if you do not imply a phrase specifiying it.
Does anyone would actually disagree that Zerg has became easier with this patch compared to LoTV pre-macromech changed, while the "macro-difficulty" of playing terran or protoss remained more or less untouched? You can think that in the end it is not a problem because you feel that Zerg was more difficult mechanically before so in the end it's even things, or that difficulty was not even before so it's not problematic that it is not even now. I disagree with that but it's a respectable opinion, but there can be no denial to the fact that Zerg has been made easier while terran and protoss did not. Of course, the scale at which Zerg has been made easier is debatable, but I think pretty much would agree that it is not negligible.
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EPT
