EPTLotV Beta Balance Update — September 3 2015 - Page 13
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crazedrat
272 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10666 Posts
On September 06 2015 07:45 crazedrat wrote: ZvT now if you scout marine your only best bet seems like roach ling bane attack and hope they went bio instead of tanks. No, actually that just sounds like an all in. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2623 Posts
On September 05 2015 20:39 LSN wrote: Bringing mules back instead of balancing terran around the removal of mules is rather stupid imo. But I am glad they test different things. I could imagine 20-25 min mules tho. 40 or 45 is too forgiving and creates passivity of terran opponents, which is neither interesting to play nor to watch. Exactly this. Mules are the main reason for me to neither want to play nor watch SC2 (the same is defenitely true for alot of other people but they don't know the cause but only the result). They create boring, passive and single sided metagames. You barely can win anything when attacking and committing on attacking a terran on mules economy without all-ining in alot of situations of the game. Funny fact about this is that alot/almost all people/pros haven't realized that over the years. This gives evidence how few of an idea they in fact have about the general factors and aspects of the game but became specialists in analysing if bunker build time and similar things should be nerfed or buffed a tiny bit. A lot of people say this but they have to take into consideration that diminishing the return from 45 to 40 is the smallest of the changes. The BIG changes is the fact that is based on cooldown and that it needs the CC to be in a certain range of the resources to work. This means a couple of things: 1.- No longer can yo mass MULE in the lategame, so you need to have the same amount of workers all game long, also you can't mass orbitals for macro. 2.- The amount of resources is the same all game long since you will have 1 MULE per 1 base as opposed to having multiple MULES as the game goes. 3.- Tied in to 1, since you don't have macro orbitals you also can't simply planetary any base past the third, so you would have to choose between, planetaries for defense or orbitals for macro. So these changes are a much bigger nerf to terran macro and expanding than it looks like. Not to mention that it nerfes turtle and passive play by A LOT, since you can't mass orbitals for macro and planetaries for defense, it even nerfs aggressive play since it becomes a lot more difficult to expand, because if you play aggressive you would need orbital bases and thus wouldn't be able to have planetaries (wich was common in ALL terran playstyles from the 4th base and on). Not saying theres anything wrong with all the changes I like them, but they don't encourage passivity and neither are forgiving. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20282 Posts
On September 06 2015 07:42 Cloak wrote: Stalkers vs Adept is basically what PvP boils down to in the early game. Will we see things back to Stalker dominance? I hope a stalker buff because stalkers are awful at killing anything unless they're fighting for half an hour without dieing. Adept vs Adept is a thing because 3 stalkers cannot do shit if 5 adepts are in your face killing your probes. You kill them eventually but he has double your economy and you lose at the 3 minute mark. Even if Adept was armored, it wouldn't be an amazing idea to build stalkers against them. You'd build stalkers becuase zealots (no-charge), sentries (..sentries) and adepts (terrible damage to anything that's not light) couldn't do a better job, and by building stalkers you'll lose 5 probes instead of 10 | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8908 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20282 Posts
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
I like the changes, but with mule now being a cooldown ability I don't like how it's restricted to 30 range from mineral patches. First of all, it makes no sense, it's called down from space. And being a cooldown ability already greatly reduces the overall efficiency of mass orbitals, so it's not necessary. Last but not least, they removed manner mules... | ||
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MyrionSC
Denmark140 Posts
On September 07 2015 00:00 cheekymonkey wrote: Why is chronoboost default set to auto-cast on the nexus when it's permanent? I like the changes, but with mule now being a cooldown ability I don't like how it's restricted to 30 range from mineral patches. First of all, it makes no sense, it's called down from space. And being a cooldown ability already greatly reduces the overall efficiency of mass orbitals, so it's not necessary. Last but not least, they removed manner mules... Because it has to be somewhere, and this way new players get the macro benefits, without having to know about it. | ||
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
On September 07 2015 02:28 MyrionSC wrote: Because it has to be somewhere, and this way new players get the macro benefits, without having to know about it. But will it continually cast itself on the nexus despite being permanent? Might as well let probes build quicker. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20282 Posts
By expanding in PvP now you're opening yourself to somebody dropping 1-4 pylons anywhere and overcharging them, using it as a place to attack you. You can't cover everywhere in the main and natural, you can't reliably stop the core from approaching your base and it's a huge clusterfuck. It might be figured out some but damn, we had the old overcharge for a reason. Last thing we need is to remove it in the same patch where we add another tool that can be abused in pvp to prevent teching/expanding safely But will it continually cast itself on the nexus despite being permanent? Might as well let probes build quicker. It's permanent. It doesn't continuously cast or recast, it's just on | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8908 Posts
On September 07 2015 00:00 cheekymonkey wrote: Why is chronoboost default set to auto-cast on the nexus when it's permanent? I like the changes, but with mule now being a cooldown ability I don't like how it's restricted to 30 range from mineral patches. First of all, it makes no sense, it's called down from space. And being a cooldown ability already greatly reduces the overall efficiency of mass orbitals, so it's not necessary. Last but not least, they removed manner mules... How come mutas can use wings to fly in the vacuum of space? There are several things that "don't make sense" so that's not really an argument. They are the way they are for balance's sake. @Cyro they will 100% make it so super pylons only can overcharge in the next patch | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/v/14777104 | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
Morrow says it is just op. Catz says it is a huge commitment of Z that should be rewarded if unscouted as you are pretty much dead if it fails. The important example is a high commitment 8 roach attack into an 8 roach drop for 50/50 in a ZvT early game scenario: Morrow is right that it is op. What T can have in the best case is 1 tank + 1 marauder + few marines (if no reapers were built). Roaches can dodge those T units (in most cases the non counter units but helions + marines/reapers) once being in T main an circle around and deal damage until reinforcements arrive, either more roaches or speedling follow up which can hit either the main with another drop or the expansion bunker that can then be engaged from 2 sides (8 roaches - casualties from inside and reinforcements from the outside). In any way this is almost not beatable when executed perfectly by zerg. But catz is also right. What he wants is something else actually. He wants someting that allows zerg to force the terran to adapt and interrupt his standard play. In hots terran pretty much deflects any agression with standard play and only few adaptation. It is highly unrewarding for zerg to commit on anything that doesn't kill the terran. The overlord drop doesn't change this fact. The deceisive factor is only the mule in this situation. When executing such a drop with 8 roaches without killing the terran he will be ahead on 2 OC whenever he saves more than 5-8 SCV + mules on 2OC (or 2-3 SCV +3 OC) as zerg does this on about 22-25 drones without a 3rd hatch and queen, with being massivly behind in tech and options. The existance of mules simply enforces the coinflip in this situation. Zerg must go for the kill (kill almost all SCV depending on how many OC, kill few attachments and depots) with this kind of an attack as he commits that much on it that he cannot comeback from it. If mules didn't exist it would be a much prettier metagame situation: To come out on par with your opponent you had to kill as many scvs as you have committed yourself on it. Killing more puts you slightly ahead and killing less is putting you slightly behind and the game wouldn't be decided at this point. With mules being in the game this situation enforces coinflip play by zerg. The game is being mainly decided by this drop and its execution. Either you shut down the terran to a point where he cannot come back from or you are massively behind yourself so that you cannot come back. Anyway the game is decided at this point, it is boring to play and watch. What catz really wants is the potential of zerg to force terran to adapt and take correlating damage to his own commitment. I know this can by default not be achieved with mules being in the game. It is exactly the kind of situation I am talking about all the time when arguing against mules. Just what they are all missing is the fact that without mules zerg wouldn't even need to build 8 roaches to execute this but could go with e.g. only 4 roaches and would be fine with killing 4-5 SCV or similar. The removal of mules would allow so much more interesting play and interactions which wouldn't decide the game but only put one or the other side slightly behind/ahead. Of course overlord drops needed to be delayed by an extra upgrade still, having them just with hatch would be too op as described earlier, even more so without mules. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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crazedrat
272 Posts
Scouting shuts it down. You can react On September 06 2015 10:24 GGzerG wrote: No, actually that just sounds like an all in. Orbitals are too strong. On September 07 2015 00:00 cheekymonkey wrote: Why is chronoboost default set to auto-cast on the nexus when it's permanent? I like the changes, but with mule now being a cooldown ability I don't like how it's restricted to 30 range from mineral patches. First of all, it makes no sense, it's called down from space. And being a cooldown ability already greatly reduces the overall efficiency of mass orbitals, so it's not necessary. Last but not least, they removed manner mules... You're worried about mass orbitals after your orbital just got buffed. Now you have free energy which translates into calldown supply, 120 minerals. Parse that value in with the MULE cycle and you're making 320 a minute over 270 with the original MULE and 240 with the autocast MULE. You also have free scans now and your orbitals have a casting range which can cover the natural and 3rd on most maps. Repositioning the 4th orbital is such a trivial concern. The orbitals got buffed this patch, while zerg lost a larvae and protoss lost the ability to focus a rush with chrono... terran got its orbital buffed. If Terran simply opens 3 orbitals right now they are well ahead. On September 06 2015 10:27 Lexender wrote: 1.- No longer can yo mass MULE in the lategame, so you need to have the same amount of workers all game long, also you can't mass orbitals for macro. 2.- The amount of resources is the same all game long since you will have 1 MULE per 1 base as opposed to having multiple MULES as the game goes. 3.- Tied in to 1, since you don't have macro orbitals you also can't simply planetary any base past the third, so you would have to choose between, planetaries for defense or orbitals for macro. So these changes are a much bigger nerf to terran macro and expanding than it looks like. 1: You actually can mass orbitals, you just have to move the orbital in some cases. It takes about 30 seconds, the orbital has a huge range. It has a base worth of range. 2: During the early and midgame you actually have a resource buff now with free calldown supply and scan. You're making about 320 a cycle over 270, not 240. 3: You can actually drop mules at most 3rds from your natural, and worst case scenario you have to move an orbital. 4: All of what you say is focused on the late game, meanwhile Terran has been buffed stronger than ever before in the early game and the midgame - the most crucial part of the game. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
On September 08 2015 00:50 Big J wrote: Does someone have a video/replay of such a roach drop allin? I have never seen it and would have never had the idea that something like that could be any good. Terran can even die or be put behind by this without drops being used when not being careful (0% scout, 0% adaptation = 2-4 helions + few marines + few dead or alive reapers at this point instead of an early tank or marauder). With drops from overlords terran is required to spread out its army and defend the main + nat while reinforcements of zerg can either continue to drop into main or attack the undefended bunker at nat. If zerg trains this 100+ games it is going to be an easy win in most cases I believe. You learn to arrange and adapt the follow up (deceisive) to what the terran went for (roach or roach/speedling or speedling or speedling/bane etc. follow up). The follow up is deceisive as zerg is all-in already with mules being in the game. If you can kill the terran with only the 8 roaches you are fine anyway (if following up or not), if you are unsure you should at any time follow it up if you see any potential to kill the terran with it as you are behind anyway if the 8 roaches fail and you switch back to macro game. In most cases it is best to fully commit on it and follow the 8 roaches with anything that can kill terran best in this situation as long as mules are in the game or skip it completely. Of course you can switch out of the commitment at anytime where you feel that your investment is lower than the dealt damage to terran and are fine (thats hardly the case with mules being in game and terran getting its 3rd OC before or at the same time as you getting your 3rd hatch tho). As both mules were out of the game and drops were at hatch before the last balance patch it is hard to compare the situations now. | ||
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DeadByDawn
United Kingdom476 Posts
On September 08 2015 00:52 crazedrat wrote: The roach drop was a good bu ild on Lerilak. Alot of that is because Terrans tend to open early CC there; rarely do I see a 1 base opening, and it's hard to scout that map. Scouting shuts it down. You can react Orbitals are too strong. You're worried about mass orbitals after your orbital just got buffed. Now you have free energy which translates into calldown supply, 120 minerals. Parse that value in with the MULE cycle and you're making 320 a minute over 270 with the original MULE and 240 with the autocast MULE. You also have free scans now and your orbitals have a casting range which can cover the natural and 3rd on most maps. Repositioning the 4th orbital is such a trivial concern. The orbitals got buffed this patch, while zerg lost a larvae and protoss lost the ability to focus a rush with chrono... terran got its orbital buffed. If Terran simply opens 3 orbitals right now they are well ahead. 1: You actually can mass orbitals, you just have to move the orbital in some cases. It takes about 30 seconds, the orbital has a huge range. It has a base worth of range. 2: During the early and midgame you actually have a resource buff now with free calldown supply and scan. You're making about 320 a cycle over 270, not 240. 3: You can actually drop mules at most 3rds from your natural, and worst case scenario you have to move an orbital. 4: All of what you say is focused on the late game, meanwhile Terran has been buffed stronger than ever before in the early game and the midgame - the most crucial part of the game. How is it really a buff?
If this is a buff then undo it and get me my HotS OCs back. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
Nevertheless, the point still stands, you cannot save up 8 mules per OC with this change. Now it's only 1. This in itself clearly already a massive nerf to the mass mule lategame strategy. In addition to the reduced mule efficiency, the radius requirement is just a nerf on top of that, completely uneccessary IMO, at least until we can see how it works out without it. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8908 Posts
On September 08 2015 01:29 Big J wrote: Again, replay or video. At least some build order would be nice. I dont want to judge this without ever seeing anything like it, but since it was brought up by professionals it sounds discussionworthy. this is a game where it works. notice how it punishes a greedy opening. this is a game where it doesn't. notice how it doesn't work versus a more well balanced opening | ||
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