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On August 05 2015 22:37 Sogetsu wrote:
Man, reading this sort of threads warm my heart. Ok, I can accept the change, and we can test it, but when you put it like that instead saying "Because casuals wants to play" like most people on NA is doing.
One of the times I like when Blizz sticks to their guns instead of following the community trend tbh 
No magic jesus economy, but I'll take the easier macro.
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I like the points you make.
However, I would still like to see some type of mechanic unique for each races, but have the mechanic not feed directly into production of army.
Example . Give zerg the ability to make creep tumors on cool down
Terran - can upgrade to orbital for scans which are on cool down
Protoss - Can upgrade nexus to produce hallucinated observers with a longer life span than most observer units
Thus each race has a mechanic to be used, and the mechanics work against each other
Zerg will try and spread creep and protect is as much as possible,
Protoss can use observers to kill the creep tumors and position to spot for drops
Terran can scan to kill observers / creep tumors / and scout.
Making these options on cool down would allow high end players to differentiate themselves much more since if you continually miss it by 5 seconds or so, after a few rounds you will be 1 scan / tumor / observer short
None of these abilities is going to make your army stronger, but will allow a player to gain advantages through knowlege of where the opponent is or isn't.
Scouting in the game would become easier, (which in LOTV is much harder because the game is faster paced)
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I think you dismissed the making the game easier point too swiftly in your Mythbusters section. Making 4-5 more hatches a game is in no way a mechanic substitute for injects every 40 seconds. It's objectively easier. Sc2 already has great players losing stupid games more often than brood war because of simplified mechanics. This could amplify that effect even more (zerg specifically). You just said no its not easier, but who were you playing against, what's your rank, what testing conditions etc. More info is needed.
You say brood war never had these crutches but brood war also didn't have MBS, had no automine, and had control groups of 12. These difficult mechanics meant that a guy like sea would not drop a single game to foreigners.
I actually dislike the macro mechanics in concept as they're clearly an APM sink, but I'd like to see it get replaced by something suitable, I really don't want this game to become micro wars where your average NA GM can take games off code s players.
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On August 06 2015 02:26 Little-Chimp wrote:
I think you dismissed the making the game easier point too swiftly in your Mythbusters section. Making 4-5 more hatches a game is in no way a mechanic substitute for injects every 40 seconds. It's objectively easier. Sc2 already has great players losing stupid games more often than brood war because of simplified mechanics. This could amplify that effect even more (zerg specifically). You just said no its not easier, but who were you playing against, what's your rank, what testing conditions etc. More info is needed.
You say brood war never had these crutches but brood war also didn't have MBS, had no automine, and had control groups of 12. These difficult mechanics meant that a guy like sea would not drop a single game to foreigners.
I actually dislike the macro mechanics in concept as they're clearly an APM sink, but I'd like to see it get replaced by something suitable, I really don't want this game to become micro wars where your average NA GM can take games off code s players.
But that's the issue. I want foreigners to be able to make up their lack of mechanics against Koreans by thinking outside the box. Basically my ideal version of SC2 would have CatZ being one of the strongest NA/LA players.
And then instead of having just players who can click fast and have a way to deal with the holes in their strats, Code S would actually be filled with people who have a deeper understanding of the game, Koreans or not.
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I think you dismissed the making the game easier point too swiftly in your Mythbusters section. Making 4-5 more hatches a game is in no way a mechanic substitute for injects every 40 seconds. It's objectively easier. Sc2 already has great players losing stupid games more often than brood war because of simplified mechanics. This could amplify that effect even more (zerg specifically). You just said no its not easier, but who were you playing against, what's your rank, what testing conditions etc. More info is needed.
You say brood war never had these crutches but brood war also didn't have MBS, had no automine, and had control groups of 12. These difficult mechanics meant that a guy like sea would not drop a single game to foreigners.
I actually dislike the macro mechanics in concept as they're clearly an APM sink, but I'd like to see it get replaced by something suitable, I really don't want this game to become micro wars where your average NA GM can take games off code s players.
Definitely this, we all loved BW because we knew what it was like trying to play the game and then when you look at Flash , jaedong , bisu, iloveoov, and every other bonjwa you know how amazing they are because you know how difficult it is vses what you do... in sc2 you don't have that while I am not opposed to changing the current mechanics I would like to make the mechanics harder not easier because I think the player that knows the game better and is more mechanically sound should win the game and dice rolling build order wins should not happen though I know a lot of the games are more complicated than that but sometimes its the fact your rolled the wrong build order for what your opponent is doing and I think thats an atrocity
But that's the issue. I want foreigners to be able to make up their lack of mechanics against Koreans by thinking outside the box. Basically my ideal version of SC2 would have CatZ being one of the strongest NA/LA players.
And then instead of having just players who can click fast and have a way to deal with the holes in their strats, Code S would actually be filled with people who have a deeper understanding of the game, Koreans or not.
This should never be... and you should be ashamed for even thinking this... people should win because they can play the game not because they think they can play the game better than others.... I think you are confusing the situation now that korean's don't understand the game but the reason why they are so aggressive is because they understand the game oh so well and know when to attack so they can either A. Do massive damage and prepare for a follow up push or B. Or just win the game or C. apply pressure and gain scouting information.
The fact that you made this statement is very saddening to my sc2 heart 
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On August 06 2015 02:31 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 02:26 Little-Chimp wrote:
I think you dismissed the making the game easier point too swiftly in your Mythbusters section. Making 4-5 more hatches a game is in no way a mechanic substitute for injects every 40 seconds. It's objectively easier. Sc2 already has great players losing stupid games more often than brood war because of simplified mechanics. This could amplify that effect even more (zerg specifically). You just said no its not easier, but who were you playing against, what's your rank, what testing conditions etc. More info is needed.
You say brood war never had these crutches but brood war also didn't have MBS, had no automine, and had control groups of 12. These difficult mechanics meant that a guy like sea would not drop a single game to foreigners.
I actually dislike the macro mechanics in concept as they're clearly an APM sink, but I'd like to see it get replaced by something suitable, I really don't want this game to become micro wars where your average NA GM can take games off code s players. But that's the issue. I want foreigners to be able to make up their lack of mechanics against Koreans by thinking outside the box. Basically my ideal version of SC2 would have CatZ being one of the strongest NA/LA players. And then instead of having just players who can click fast and have a way to deal with the holes in their strats, Code S would actually be filled with people who have a deeper understanding of the game, Koreans or not.
I disagree with this big time, foreigners should not be able to make up for their lack of mechanics by making the macro mechanics of the game more friendly or more noob.
The better player should win, the people that practice more should win, if I ever see CatZ take down Innovation or Life because of how noob they made the mechanics that's the day I stop watching Starcraft, foreigners suck, it was the same in BW.
On that note, they should tone down the macro boosters big time to allow smaller scale engagements in the mid game more prevalent/rewarding.
"And then instead of having just players who can click fast and have a way to deal with the holes in their strats, Code S would actually be filled with people who have a deeper understanding of the game, Koreans or not."
Koreans win and Code S is filled with Koreans because they do have a deeper understanding of the game. Foreigners shouldn't be coddled so they can beat people who train 10 times harder to compete on a 10 times more difficult competition level.
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On August 06 2015 03:25 jpg06051992 wrote:
Koreans win and Code S is filled with Koreans because they do have a deeper understanding of the game.
False. Today was a prime example of a Code S Korean failing big time with their strategic decision: Game 3 Bomber vs Trust.
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On August 06 2015 03:28 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 03:25 jpg06051992 wrote:
Koreans win and Code S is filled with Koreans because they do have a deeper understanding of the game.
False. Today was a prime example of a Code S Korean failing big time with their strategic decision: Game 3 Bomber vs Trust.
Rofl, Koreans are also humans that make tactical/macro errors -____-
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I want to bring up the analogy of a sports team with few superstars vs a sports team with great team cohesion and strategy. Mechanical skill is like the first team. Deep strategic understanding (with still execution being a factor obviously) is the second team. But we can't have the 2nd team winning championships if the rules are rigged such as anyone who can reach top speed of > 40 km/h during a game automatically gets his team extra points.
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On August 06 2015 03:30 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 03:28 mishimaBeef wrote:On August 06 2015 03:25 jpg06051992 wrote:
Koreans win and Code S is filled with Koreans because they do have a deeper understanding of the game.
False. Today was a prime example of a Code S Korean failing big time with their strategic decision: Game 3 Bomber vs Trust. Rofl, Koreans are also humans that make tactical/macro errors -____-
The point is I don't believe any random top korean has expert strategy, they mostly ride their mechanics to the top and model their play on known solid strategy cookie cutter builds.
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On August 06 2015 03:32 mishimaBeef wrote:
I want to bring up the analogy of a sports team with few superstars vs a sports team with great team cohesion and strategy. Mechanical skill is like the first team. Deep strategic understanding (with still execution being a factor obviously) is the second team. But we can't have the 2nd team winning championships if the rules are rigged such as anyone who can reach top speed of > 40 km/h during a game automatically gets his team extra points.
Sports teams run drills and cardio practices non stop, unless conditioning is at least similar, the team with better "mechanics" will always win. This is a horrible example. Starcraft isn't even a team game god damn.
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On August 06 2015 03:33 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 03:30 jpg06051992 wrote:On August 06 2015 03:28 mishimaBeef wrote:On August 06 2015 03:25 jpg06051992 wrote:
Koreans win and Code S is filled with Koreans because they do have a deeper understanding of the game.
False. Today was a prime example of a Code S Korean failing big time with their strategic decision: Game 3 Bomber vs Trust. Rofl, Koreans are also humans that make tactical/macro errors -____- The point is I don't believe these koreans have expert strategy, they mostly ride their mechanics to the top.
Sorry but I don't think it's an opinion to say that that is crap at worst and delusional at best. SC2 isn't even as mechanically dominated as BW was it is way more strategy based, take a B level Korean against CatZ and see the better decision making.
That's like saying they should make Baseball easier to play that way minor league players can compete with the majors because all the majors do is rely on their superior mechanics to get to the top.
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On August 06 2015 03:35 Little-Chimp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 03:32 mishimaBeef wrote:
I want to bring up the analogy of a sports team with few superstars vs a sports team with great team cohesion and strategy. Mechanical skill is like the first team. Deep strategic understanding (with still execution being a factor obviously) is the second team. But we can't have the 2nd team winning championships if the rules are rigged such as anyone who can reach top speed of > 40 km/h during a game automatically gets his team extra points. Sports teams run drills and cardio practices non stop, unless conditioning is at least similar, the team with better "mechanics" will always win. This is a horrible example. Starcraft isn't even a team game god damn.
The idea is that the player with god-like mechanics is able to reach top speed of very high during a game (and is rewarded greatly for it). Whereas the other player might have all the correct pieces in place, in terms of their strategy, and their strategic pieces might be superior to the god-like-mechanics player but they can't get those extra reward boosts.
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On August 06 2015 03:35 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 03:33 mishimaBeef wrote:On August 06 2015 03:30 jpg06051992 wrote:On August 06 2015 03:28 mishimaBeef wrote:On August 06 2015 03:25 jpg06051992 wrote:
Koreans win and Code S is filled with Koreans because they do have a deeper understanding of the game.
False. Today was a prime example of a Code S Korean failing big time with their strategic decision: Game 3 Bomber vs Trust. Rofl, Koreans are also humans that make tactical/macro errors -____- The point is I don't believe these koreans have expert strategy, they mostly ride their mechanics to the top. Sorry but I don't think it's an opinion to say that that is crap at worst and delusional at best. SC2 isn't even as mechanically dominated as BW was it is way more strategy based, take a B level Korean against CatZ and see the better decision making. That's like saying they should make Baseball easier to play that way minor league players can compete with the majors because all the majors do is rely on their superior mechanics to get to the top.
I just want to see more emphasis on proper strategy and *display* of "deeper understanding of the game" and less emphasis on *relatively invisible* high speed mechanics.
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On August 06 2015 03:38 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 03:35 Little-Chimp wrote:On August 06 2015 03:32 mishimaBeef wrote:
I want to bring up the analogy of a sports team with few superstars vs a sports team with great team cohesion and strategy. Mechanical skill is like the first team. Deep strategic understanding (with still execution being a factor obviously) is the second team. But we can't have the 2nd team winning championships if the rules are rigged such as anyone who can reach top speed of > 40 km/h during a game automatically gets his team extra points. Sports teams run drills and cardio practices non stop, unless conditioning is at least similar, the team with better "mechanics" will always win. This is a horrible example. Starcraft isn't even a team game god damn. The idea is that the player with god-like mechanics is able to reach top speed of very high during a game (and is rewarded greatly for it). Whereas the other player might have all the correct pieces in place, in terms of their strategy, and their strategic pieces might be superior to the god-like-mechanics player but they can't get those extra reward boosts.
Ok I see what your saying, but it's just wrong man, your talking like these players with God like mechanics just have those mechanics compared to the poor foreigners that are making all of the right moves but not fast enough.
I'm not trying to be an elitist here man but those players with god like mechanics trained way harder then any foreign player besides Snute maybe to get them that way.
Notice how Snute trains non stop in Korea and therefore he is able to at least semi go toe to toe with Koreans? Yea, so do you want to punish people like him that trained hard to get Korean level mechanics so the rest of the crappy foreigners can "have a chance" so to speak?
O__o
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On August 06 2015 03:41 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 03:38 mishimaBeef wrote:On August 06 2015 03:35 Little-Chimp wrote:On August 06 2015 03:32 mishimaBeef wrote:
I want to bring up the analogy of a sports team with few superstars vs a sports team with great team cohesion and strategy. Mechanical skill is like the first team. Deep strategic understanding (with still execution being a factor obviously) is the second team. But we can't have the 2nd team winning championships if the rules are rigged such as anyone who can reach top speed of > 40 km/h during a game automatically gets his team extra points. Sports teams run drills and cardio practices non stop, unless conditioning is at least similar, the team with better "mechanics" will always win. This is a horrible example. Starcraft isn't even a team game god damn. The idea is that the player with god-like mechanics is able to reach top speed of very high during a game (and is rewarded greatly for it). Whereas the other player might have all the correct pieces in place, in terms of their strategy, and their strategic pieces might be superior to the god-like-mechanics player but they can't get those extra reward boosts. Ok I see what your saying, but it's just wrong man, your talking like these players with God like mechanics just have those mechanics compared to the poor foreigners that are making all of the right moves but not fast enough. I'm not trying to be an elitist here man but those players with god like mechanics trained way harder then any foreign player besides Snute maybe to get them that way. Notice how Snute trains non stop in Korea and therefore he is able to at least semi go toe to toe with Koreans? Yea, so do you want to punish people like him that trained hard to get Korean level mechanics so the rest of the crappy foreigners can "have a chance" so to speak? O__o
Yeah it's like if they rigged the rules of basketball so if you can jump extra-extra high during a slam dunk you get an extra 5 points. I think Lebron James will suddenly be carrying his team a lot more, but that's okay because he practiced and is skilled in his mechanics right?
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On August 06 2015 03:25 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 02:31 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On August 06 2015 02:26 Little-Chimp wrote:
I think you dismissed the making the game easier point too swiftly in your Mythbusters section. Making 4-5 more hatches a game is in no way a mechanic substitute for injects every 40 seconds. It's objectively easier. Sc2 already has great players losing stupid games more often than brood war because of simplified mechanics. This could amplify that effect even more (zerg specifically). You just said no its not easier, but who were you playing against, what's your rank, what testing conditions etc. More info is needed.
You say brood war never had these crutches but brood war also didn't have MBS, had no automine, and had control groups of 12. These difficult mechanics meant that a guy like sea would not drop a single game to foreigners.
I actually dislike the macro mechanics in concept as they're clearly an APM sink, but I'd like to see it get replaced by something suitable, I really don't want this game to become micro wars where your average NA GM can take games off code s players. But that's the issue. I want foreigners to be able to make up their lack of mechanics against Koreans by thinking outside the box. Basically my ideal version of SC2 would have CatZ being one of the strongest NA/LA players. And then instead of having just players who can click fast and have a way to deal with the holes in their strats, Code S would actually be filled with people who have a deeper understanding of the game, Koreans or not. I disagree with this big time, foreigners should not be able to make up for their lack of mechanics by making the macro mechanics of the game more friendly or more noob. The better player should win, the people that practice more should win, if I ever see CatZ take down Innovation or Life because of how noob they made the mechanics that's the day I stop watching Starcraft, foreigners suck, it was the same in BW. On that note, they should tone down the macro boosters big time to allow smaller scale engagements in the mid game more prevalent/rewarding. "And then instead of having just players who can click fast and have a way to deal with the holes in their strats, Code S would actually be filled with people who have a deeper understanding of the game, Koreans or not." Koreans win and Code S is filled with Koreans because they do have a deeper understanding of the game. Foreigners shouldn't be coddled so they can beat people who train 10 times harder to compete on a 10 times more difficult competition level.
Why? By prioritizing micro more, the player who can be everywhere at once, or be where he is not expected to be, will win games because he is everywhere in unexpected places. Innovation has a very robotic style. It is nearly flawless, and it is also very boring.
I'm not saying anyone can be the best. I will never be the best and you probably won't either with this new style. But what we'll have is a new top tier of players with more flashy play and a larger variety of strats.
APM is ultimately going to be the deciding factor either way, with macro, or micro, or whatever. But just like in chess where players memorizing lines to move 15 or something crazy like that makes for boring, repetitive games, a meta that favors heavily macro-centric, conservative gameplay makes games repetitive and dull.
Training 10 times as hard shouldn't mean hitting perfect injects to spam out 10 times as many roaches. It should be doing 10 times as much damage, or saving 10 times as much army.
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If you don't like my CatZ example, take sOs as an innovative top level Korean instead.
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False. Today was a prime example of a Code S Korean failing big time with their strategic decision: Game 3 Bomber vs Trust.
Game 3 Bomber vs Trust what ended the game was someone didn't have a deep enough understanding of the game stepped out on the map before he should have right after doing game ending damage and threw the match because he did not have a good understanding of the game... Bomber knew once he stepped out on the map like that he had his one chance to kill his army and push to his main for the win...
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EPT
