EPTNew Macro = Good!? - Page 2
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nottapro
202 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
The Queen accomplishes base defense through generalist agency and heal, has a tremendous production buff, and a landscaping mobility buff. The flat production buff is too strong and APM-dependent rather than strategic and that is what prompted this macro discussion. Inject could be have less uptime, so stacked energy can be compensated for. Inject being converted to bursts of smaller quantities of Larva seems like the best idea mentioned so far. Chronoboost production is balanced around nerfs, but so are the other macro mechanics, at least until LotV. It has fair options but lacks true macro scaling since its economical impact is bridging the base saturation gap slightly faster but nothing super like Mule and Inject. If CB could be used on constructing buildings in the context of a mild global macro mechanics nerf, then CB would be in a good spot. CB could potentially lose its unit production in favor of building construction. Helps with the Protoss expanding. Macro Overview As mentioned before, macro mechanics themselves are not the whole issue. There is a whole milieu of tasks being multiplied by SC2 related changes. The APM burden could be solved more directly by building less buildings, negotiating units more slowly with the enemys', and dealing with less workers. dealing with less workers Controversial changes ahead but the wound is now raw anyway. Early game timings are already out the window. Halve the worker count for the same effective income. Balanced with cost/build time doubled. Added benefit of freeing up supply leading to less depot demand. More potential army to worry about controlling. Longer lasting patches last longer. It wouldn't affect the progression of the game but provides cushion to the casual. Mules should stop being supra-standard income, as in blocking the harvester. Seems like we're starting to acknowledge the RTS fundamentals being warped by some of the macro perks. negotiating units more slowly with the enemys' Global buffs in HP seems to be counterproductive though, according to Blizz's internal testing. Then, do the fast in speed and the fast in DPS need to take a beating? Eg. Blink, Stim, Mutas, Medis, Lings, Liberators, Phoenixes,Marauders, Oracles, Roaches, Carriers, Lurkers, Cyclones, Storm, EMP, PB? Great speed and power disparities lead to passive play because the risk is too punishing. building less buildings Casuals can't spend all that extra money, make it easier per building to burn all that cash. More expensive production buildings, longer construction times, but global production buffs. Can appeal to the ADHD here since it helps with compositional latency. | ||
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bmw
United States14 Posts
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
On August 05 2015 09:09 Plexa wrote: While I generally don't like the idea of lowering the skillcap of the game, this post made me doubt whether or not this is true. I would be interested to see a game without macro mechanics, if only for a few weeks in beta. I'm on the same page as you, I never for once pondered what the game would be like without the macro mechanics and now I want to see a few test tournaments just to get a feel for it, both in HotS and LotV eco. | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
I really hope blizz gives this a try... I can't wait to play it if they do. | ||
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loft
United States344 Posts
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On August 05 2015 12:51 Wildmoon wrote: Will Mech be potentially better with no macro mechanics because zerg can't really produce units and remax as fast to swarm mech army and bio terran will have harder time without MULE? Mech itself doesn't really rely much on MULE and it will likely benefit from slower production rate across the board. Unequivocally | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
kidding aside, I'm all for this just some questions and opinions -Queens main purpose will be just a lil defense and creep spread? -in the mod you are referring how does the zerg larva works? Just 3 per hatch always? -i think MULES can stay but just a repair guy | ||
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L3x_Luthor
United States4 Posts
If you don't agree I'm sorry, I'm only a Diamond Zerg but I love my injects. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 05 2015 07:04 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: You do it the same way as in BW, with macro hatches! (or potential future larva upgrades) Terran can't pull the boys because what's he going to mine with Protoss can't all-in as fast because his upgrades take longer This. I honestly think if they removed the macro mechanics the game will improve in so many ways. I really, really hope this change goes through, but with all the backlash I don't think it will. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
The macro mechanics in this game are an obstacle. They are put in intentionally to make up for all the things that SC2 does for you automatically. The MBS, the unlimited selection, the automining. All of the things that were originally contended to make this game too simple. So, they artificially inserted these mechanics as obstacles to "perfect play". If all you had to do was take bases, and use hotkeys to make units, and go back every 1 minute or so to make buildings... we are really going to loose what differentiates a high grand master player from a pro gamer. They aren't changing pathing so the deathball isn't going anywhere, don't think we are going to see a bunch of smaller engagements around the map if people don't have to inject. It's an obstacle not a crutch, even a dumbed down obstacle compared with brood war. How can OP talk about "going back to playing brood war, it doesn't have any crutches" ... yeah it doesn't have crutches, it has more obstacles. You have to click each worker 2X to make it mine. You have to select buildings one at a time. And you can only hotkey 12 units at a time. The Macro Mechanics are artificial obstacles to make up for the nearly fully automated game that is SC2. ugh | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
On August 05 2015 14:59 CursOr wrote: Why in gods name would call Macro Mechanics "crutches"? That's just plain wrong. A crutch is something that helps you. It assists you where you lack. The macro mechanics in this game are an obstacle. They are put in intentionally to make up for all the things that SC2 does for you automatically. The MBS, the unlimited selection, the automining. All of the things that were originally contended to make this game too simple. So, they artificially inserted these mechanics as obstacles to "perfect play". If all you had to do was take bases, and use hotkeys to make units, and go back every 1 minute or so to make buildings... we are really going to loose what differentiates a high grand master player from a pro gamer. They aren't changing pathing so the deathball isn't going anywhere, don't think we are going to see a bunch of smaller engagements around the map if people don't have to inject. It's an obstacle not a crutch, even a dumbed down obstacle compared with brood war. How can OP talk about "going back to playing brood war, it doesn't have any crutches" ... yeah it doesn't have crutches, it has more obstacles. You have to click each worker 2X to make it mine. You have to select buildings one at a time. And you can only hotkey 12 units at a time. The Macro Mechanics are artificial obstacles to make up for the nearly fully automated game that is SC2. ugh All these automated things are necessary and SC2 is far from "too simple" as it can get in this day and age. We could all go back to limited controls of WarCraft 2 if we want that kind of complexity. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jkjrQ9x.png) complexity is what makes the game interesting to watch. these people are doing things I cant. look this guy has perfected this, he can shoot 80% 3 pointers, or he can pitch a no hitter or he can throw 60 yards downfield into zone coverage, OR he can cover the map in creep and not miss an inject for 20 minutes against Flash. | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
On August 05 2015 15:17 CursOr wrote: Well when we are all playing hello kitty island and there is 1 big gold league because you'll be able to beat flash with a good roach timing, I certainly hope that you do not miss esports. complexity is what makes the game interesting to watch. these people are doing things I cant. look this guy has perfected this, he can shoot 80% 3 pointers, or he can pitch a no hitter or he can throw 60 yards downfield into zone coverage, OR he can cover the map in creep and not miss an inject for 20 minutes against Flash. lol sure, let's pick when BW streams are higher in number and I doubt any master zerg will ever take a map off Dream. I would remind you that top SC2 players hardly stream. Flash is not a good example too lol. You wouldn't see a game where players from certain country dominate the rest of the world so hard that they are expected to win everything even with their lower tier of players aside from BW and SC2. If you really think viewer number is related to complexity of a game then I would tell you that Hearthstone is around the top of Twitch. | ||
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CrazyBread92
United States53 Posts
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
On August 05 2015 14:59 CursOr wrote: Why in gods name would call Macro Mechanics "crutches"? That's just plain wrong. A crutch is something that helps you. It assists you where you lack. The macro mechanics in this game are an obstacle. They are put in intentionally to make up for all the things that SC2 does for you automatically. The MBS, the unlimited selection, the automining. All of the things that were originally contended to make this game too simple. So, they artificially inserted these mechanics as obstacles to "perfect play". If all you had to do was take bases, and use hotkeys to make units, and go back every 1 minute or so to make buildings... we are really going to loose what differentiates a high grand master player from a pro gamer. They aren't changing pathing so the deathball isn't going anywhere, don't think we are going to see a bunch of smaller engagements around the map if people don't have to inject. It's an obstacle not a crutch, even a dumbed down obstacle compared with brood war. How can OP talk about "going back to playing brood war, it doesn't have any crutches" ... yeah it doesn't have crutches, it has more obstacles. You have to click each worker 2X to make it mine. You have to select buildings one at a time. And you can only hotkey 12 units at a time. The Macro Mechanics are artificial obstacles to make up for the nearly fully automated game that is SC2. ugh this an actually good point too tho. But it applies mostly for z. then P then lastly T | ||
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gneGne
Netherlands697 Posts
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Sogetsu
514 Posts
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