EPTEverything else is secondary in importance.
Community Feedback Update - July 17 - Page 5
| Forum Index > Legacy of the Void |
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KaiserJohan
Sweden1808 Posts
Everything else is secondary in importance. | ||
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91matt
United Kingdom147 Posts
On July 19 2015 07:32 KaiserJohan wrote: Protoss needs somewhat of a redesign. Everything else is secondary in importance. The liberator needs to be nerfed first  | ||
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
What boggles my mind is that why does the foreign scene want the game to be more difficult. | ||
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fruity.
England1711 Posts
On July 19 2015 09:23 c0ldfusion wrote: Glad to see that the entire Korean scene thinks LotV is too hard. What boggles my mind is that why does the foreign scene want the game to be more difficult. What's behind your opinion of the whole foreign scene wanting it to be more difficult? To be honest I don't ever recall reading anything along those line round these parts | ||
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TelecoM
United States10688 Posts
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
On July 19 2015 10:42 fruity. wrote: What's behind your opinion of the whole foreign scene wanting it to be more difficult? To be honest I don't ever recall reading anything along those line round these parts It's in David Kim's summary in the OP. Game Difficulty Discussion As many of us on the team expected, this proved to be a tough topic. We knew going in there would be clear disagreements, as we’ve been seeing in many places—including individual pro feedback—that the majority of the Korean community disagrees with our goals for Void, while many outside of Korea strongly agree with our direction. As many of you already know, these are the main goals that our team has for Legacy of the Void: More action, less down time. More micro on both sides in engagements. New ways to show off skill. Make the game more difficult for pros. Make the game more approachable to regular players through new features such as Archon Mode and Allied Commanders. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On July 18 2015 22:58 Caihead wrote: List of unit active abilities (I didn't count common mechanics like load/unload): BW terran: 14 Marine / Firebat: Stim Medic: Heal, Restoration, Optic Flare Vulture: Spider Mine Siege tank: Siege/Unsiege Wraith: Cloak/Uncloak Ghost: Nuke, Cloak/Uncloak, Lockdown Science Vessel: Defensive Matrix, EMP, Irradiate Battlecruiser: Yamato SC2 terran: HotS 15 (lotv 19) Marine / Marauder: Stim Reaper (lotv): bomb Ghost: Snipe, EMP. Nuke, Cloak/Uncloak, (lotv) ability subject to change Hellion/Hellbat: Transform Tank: Siege/Unsiege Widow Mine: Borrow/Unborrow Viking: Transform Medivac: Boost, Heal Raven: Auto Turret, Seeker Missile, Point Defense drone Banshee: Cloak/Uncloak Battlecruiser: Yamato, (lotv) teleport? Liberator (lotv): AG mode BW Protoss (I didn't count morph archon): 10 High Templar: Psionic Storm, Hallucination Reaver: Build Scarab Dark Archon: Feedback, Maelstrom, Mind control Carrier: Build interceptor Arbitor: Stasis field, Recall Corsair: Disruption Web SC2 Protoss: 12, (lotv 16?) Zealot: Charge Stalker: Blink Sentry: Forcefield, Hallucination High Templar: Storm, Feedback Immortal (lotv): shield Phoenix: Lift Voidray: Alignment Oracle: Revelation (lotv subject to changes), Envision (lotv subject to changes), Pulsar Beam activate / Deactivate Carrier: Build interceptor, (lotv) release interceptors to location subject to change? Disruptor (lotv): Purification nova Adept (lotv): Teleport BW Zerg (I didn't count borrow or morph): 7 Defiler: Dark Swarm, Consume, Plague Queen: Infest Command center, Parasite, Ensnare, Spawn broodling SC2 Zerg: 9, (lotv 10-11?) Queen: Spawn Larva, Creep tumor, Transfuse Ravager (lotv): bile Infestor: Infested terran, Fungal, Neural (lotv subject to change?) Viper: Blinding cloud, consume, (lotv) air aoe Corrupter: Corruption (lotv removed?) Even though you dismiss people's complaints, your counts pretty much confirm what everybody is saying. There are already more abilities in HotS compared to BW and LotV is adding even more. You also missed the abilities of the thor, overseer, mothership/core and the sentry's guardian shield. The game isn't just a mess for players. It's a mess for spectators, too. BW had many fans who stopped playing the game ages ago or never played it at all. These people could still understand the game by watching. SC2 currently has way too many active abilities that don't do anything for spectators. They are designed 100% to be busywork for players. If you haven't played the game in a while, you might not even know these abilities exist or what they are there for. | ||
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fruity.
England1711 Posts
The only time I've heard the difficulty of LotV called in to question was with a recent translation here on TL by Catana I believe (which is a valid point). Sure the learning curve is steep, it is a difficult game, still don't believe that everyone outside Korea wants the game made even harder. Not looking to be argumentative here | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
JaKaTaK, Carbot, Lowko, iNcontroL, ZG, Rifkin,etc The reddit post itself is very optimistic, I don't really know if I can trust it or not :D. For next week's protoss update, I fully expect the classic statement: "We looked at it in internal testing and it didn't pan out well, Protoss is already nice enough!" I like Blizzard, but for now we've yet to see any hint that they're willing to shake things up to a great enough extent to please the hardcore community (us, TL). It's not an overly enthusiastic reddit post under NDA that will convince otherwise :D. On another topic, I hugely agree with this post! On July 18 2015 23:51 Big J wrote: @Caihead: I honestly don't see why you expect players that probably do not play BW (anymore) to want things to be like BW. These "justify things by showing how they were in broodwar and noone complaint there"-arguments are getting so tiring. I couldn't give any fuck about how others liked what was in broodwar. What I give a fuck about is how my game plays right now and what conclusion I can draw for the future developments of this game. And excessive amounts of active abilities is something I don't like in STARCRAFT 2. I already don't enjoy playing with 2 different active caster units (e.g. Infestor+Viper, or ghost+raven) in one army, even less 3 (infestor+viper+queen) and I can't see my fun in STARCRAFT 2 increase by also having to implement active skills on more non-caster units into my play. I can't believe how pissed off I am when I'm forced to control 2 different casters and all the rest of the army with them :D. Thankfully I'm Terran so it doesn't happen that much, but I've already played some raven+ghost+viking+MMM and holy shit, what a pain in the ass this is :D. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9419 Posts
I can't believe how pissed off I am when I'm forced to control 2 different casters and all the rest of the army with them :D. Thankfully I'm Terran so it doesn't happen that much, but I've already played some raven+ghost+viking+MMM and holy !@#$%^&*, what a pain in the !@#$%^&* this is :D. I had hoped that Blizzard had reworked how you could use spellcasters along with each other. E.g. you should be able to stim bio units and use Ghost abilities without having two seperate control groups. Would make the game so much simpler and allow us to focus on unit movement instead of control group management. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 19 2015 18:48 Hider wrote: I had hoped that Blizzard had reworked how you could use spellcasters along with each other. E.g. you should be able to stim bio units and use Ghost abilities without having two seperate control groups. Would make the game so much simpler and allow us to focus on unit movement instead of control group management. It's also the nature of some spells. E.g. Mass queen with heal is one of the most frustrating "micro" experiences in the game imo. All you do is spam click targets that keep on running out of the rather small heal range (7). And on top of that the spell has a tiny cooldown that makes it very sluggish because then often the target is in range of a queen that just healed it, but not in range of the next best casting queen and the heal doesn't go off in time. And then you pair that with spamming infested Terrans and Ravager shots all over the place... Though I'm giving the ravager more flak than it deserves. The ravager itself is very fun to play with, at least if you know about rapidfire. It's rather that I've already played it in conjunction with the infestor and the lurker and then it keeps on annoying me that I'm basically only clicking buttons and have no time for any positioning micro. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Well, that's nice. But all the players here know the feeling of "damn, I looked away for a second and half of my army is gone"(or, in my usual case, all my army is without shields  ).And how am I supposed to play when I have lag spikes in Beta? I would love to play it, but I SO MUCH HATE these loses. And I really do not want to experience a loss where I couldn't do anything for 2-4 seconds because now I am waiting until the game will give me the ability to actually play it. Until they resolve this problem, LotV beta is not for me. | ||
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3463 Posts
The reason we want it more difficult is so we have more consistent top players. This can also be done by simply removing some of the random factors of openers, or improving the ability to scout. LotV has made that part of the game worse, which means, even though there's many more tasks to do well in LotV and that insane micro players will do well in that aspect, these players might end up being less consistent overall. | ||
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Dingodile
4139 Posts
I do feel very frustating to lose a game because: I lost to mass FF I lost to (strong) wmines hits I dont feel frustating to lose when such happened: I lost because my opponent show great muta skills I lost because my opponent show great blink stalkers micro. Sadly most games happened like the first example (90% of all losses). And no, I dont feel good that I won my games with sick FF or good wmines random hits. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On July 18 2015 13:09 SC2John wrote: What. The. Fuck. How is this thinking possible? SC2, at it's heart, is a 1v1 game. It's a (fun) competitive game based on learning how the races and matchups and interactions work; the rest is extraneous. I'm not saying this because I believe 1v1 is the only way to play, but because the game has been marketed and branded this way since its inception, and it makes no sense to expect that the richest part of a player's experience is going to be building confidence to play a single NORMAL game of SC2. Even if I'm brand new to an RTS, my goal when downloading an RTS is to play an RTS. For example, if I download Minesweeper, I may not know the rules or how to play, but I can immediately jump into the game, learn little bits and pieces, and quickly master the game. If I download League of Legends, I can immediately jump into a blind pick game and begin learning the basics of how to play against real people without much stress. But in SC2, it's EXPECTED that I'll need to spend several days or weeks just building up enough knowledge and confidence to play a standard game of SC2? Why is the game so hard that a brand new player literally cannot play the game they downloaded? I appreciate the work towards creating a game that helps new players transition, and I especially appreciate these constant updates. But I personally think it's absolutely flawed that the game has such tight transitions and punishing mechanics that new players are expected to fail, get frustrated, and leave without some sort of alternative gaming safety net. This logic of Blizzard's makes sense to me. Like someone else posted, I got into rts through the campaign mode as well. Minesweeper is a simple game with simple rules. The rules stay simple, but the game can become very complex, like most sports out there. Anyone can play basketball, but to play it well is another thing. Starcraft (and rts in general) are complicated games with complicated rule sets, that are also hard to master. Most people will pick this game up to play it and get lost in all the rules. Probably a good chunk of people will give up on the game right there after getting stomped in a 1v1 and never understanding why they lost (because they don't understand all the rules). These non competitive modes give people different levels to learn and participate. I personally think it will help the community grow larger and I would welcome that. I agree about the punishing mechanics, but I think LOTV is much better than HOTS in this regard. I usually don't lose a LOTV game in one fight, but in HOTS I find my army is dead in a 3 second fight and it decides the game. Idk, I agree fights should be less punishing, more back and forth. | ||
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