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I think you underestimate these kind of changes. And maybe I'm wrong, it's hard for me to understand how much impact something like this will have.
Does anyone understand the level of impact with the turret tracking change?
Dude being able to move attack and move back slightly faster with a tank in tank-mode is almost completely irrelevant. You should have it in siege mode anyway the majority of the time. And even then, it's not like the kiting it can do with 0.167 DP and 2.25 movement speed is very strong anyway.
The only imagineable scenario where it could be relevant is if someone drops you in your main and you need to counter it with a tank in tank-mode as the Siege-mode is too immobile (plus he can drop on top of you). But its a 5% buff to very specific and rare scenarios.
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On July 12 2015 03:46 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 03:45 Hider wrote:
won't implementing Turret tracking make the Tank a better unit in the hands of a good player?
Nah this will barely matter. I think you underestimate these kind of changes. And maybe I'm wrong, it's hard for me to understand how much impact something like this will have. Does anyone understand the level of impact with the turret tracking change?
The turret tracking alone will hardly have any impact, besides being visually very pleasing. The tank still has to stand for at least 0.167seconds whenever it shoots due to damage point and is slower than most units in the game.
The only change I could see at the moment are some tiny early game situations when you defend certain harass or retreat with tanks where you may get another shot off. (e.g. against prespeed roaches or pre-stim marines).
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I really like the vision weakness because who knows what sort of obstacle patterns you can design to create entirely different engagement interfaces. Cyclone is now on the right track.
Medivac has always been the Forcefield of Terran, but in the opposite extreme. Instead of disabling space, it is enabling. Which always seems like a good thing, but too much of anything can be bad for you. Terrain is invalidated and map makers have less sway over the variety. And both extremes have the same consequence, it may be holding the core units back because of how reliant Terran is on it. However, in the context of Hatch-tech drops and Pylon-range Warp Prisms, it seems difficult for me to advocate a big nerf. Had it been HotS, I would say it needs a nerf and then that balance chunk can be donated to the bio unit pool. Perhaps that will be the case, even in LotV.
But we still need to coax Terran off the Medivac heroin, so best I can offer is make them slightly more expensive, but offer an alternative in the aggressive bio department. Aggressive bunkers have become nearly extinct. Perhaps you can tie the Raven with the Bunker, just an idea. Auto-turret is already flirting with the idea and rarely used. Or it can be an upgrade of the bunker. It could unlock a new bio style. Built faster and more capacity, Super bunker? Slightly mobile bunker? Bunker with attack attributes?
On July 11 2015 03:02 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
More medivac harass, its already good enough. They dont need a buff.
The rest of the changes i agree.
But still no feedback on mass carrier and 4 gate adept that is shrecking Zerg and Terran.
Also no Zerg updates, the ravager, SH etc.
DK indirectly gave an answer to that, L2P. Adept OPedness seems to be timing related. Also sounds familiar, that, in a beta, 4gate is "so OP." Zerg is historically underfoot when the meta is in shambles, but they have the most to gain from making proper macro risks. And Terran drop style is still trying to find its place as not the answer to all things, but still seems to be flourishing if you watched the Red Bull Archon Tournament. However, I do agree that now Terran has gotten good Cyclone changes, we SHOULD be looking at Ravager, SH, Viper, Zealot, Disruptor, and the red headed stepchild that is Colossus.
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with Turret tracking won't a Tank get off the first shot a lot faster because the Turret will be instantly right in proper position?
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Would it really be that crazy to just bring Goliaths back?
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On July 12 2015 06:08 cordellb wrote:
Would it really be that crazy to just bring Goliaths back?
That is like Blizzard admitting that Thors were failure addition. Their pride will never allow that.
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New patch hit blizzard servers but is yet to be pushed to clients.
Changes:
- Contains "Whispers of Oblivion" - 3 mission prologue to LotV
- Zeratul, branded a heretic and a traitor by his people, has spent the last six years searching for the truth behind the return of the Xel'Naga. Having delivered warnings to both the Terran and Zerg, the part the Protoss must play in galactic events still eludes him.
- GAMES2_VOID_PROLOGUE_DISABLED_BETA: Pre-purchase Legacy of the Void to gain access to the Prologue missions!
- Voiceover and facial animation data added for Adept, Cyclone, and Liberator.
- Light, texture, and terrain data added for several new tilesets.
- Lurker attack now has a DamagePoint of 0.
- Added upgrade data for a Cyclone air upgrade.
- Added Adept shield upgrade.
- Description: Increases the Adept's shields by 50.
- Costs 100 minerals and 100 gas.
- Researched at Twilight Council.
- Terran Vehicle Weapons and Terran Vehicle Plating upgrades now apply to the Cyclone.
- Protoss Ground Weapons, Protoss Ground Armor, and Protoss Shield upgrades now apply to the Disruptor.
- New Reaper Ability: KD8 Charge
- Description: Explodes after a short delay, doing 10 damage and knocking back nearby units.
- 5 range.
- 10 second cooldown.
- "Allied Commanders" mode is starting to be implemented - they're associating units and talents with specific lore characters.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Those who like increased map diversity think about this.
Among the 130 best games of all tie. 93 of them were played on standard maps.
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On July 12 2015 15:58 stuchiu wrote:
Those who like increased map diversity think about this.
Among the 130 best games of all tie. 93 of them were played on standard maps.
you can't isolate single maps like that, you have to consider a pool of 7 maps at a time. while perhaps the majority of maps at any time should be standard, a map pool of entirely standard maps can be monotonous, since players can just use the same standardized builds, tactics, etc. on every map.
imo at least 2-3 maps at any given time should have some sort of experimental or game changing feature to shake up the meta a little. since these types of maps tend to be "figured out" more quickly, they can simply be rotated out of the pool more quickly as well, which also has the advantage of allowing more experimental ideas in total to be tested. then if some of these ideas work out well, mapmakers can start incorporating them into standard maps.
also, that statistic is very misleading. since the majority of maps in the history of sc2 have been standard, and non-standard maps are more likely to be vetoed, then the majority of all games will have been played on standard maps, not only the best games.
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These new maps are not about "adaptation." They are objectively bad for the gameplay of SC2 itself, most maps back rocks, more than 1 entrance to natural...etc. It's like season 1 blistering sands and worse.
People need to speak up so blizzard will get decent maps in this pool. All the current maps are all purposely designed to not allow mech play, which is really disappointing seeing as how not every pro game should be bio imo.
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Russian Federation421 Posts
On July 12 2015 15:58 stuchiu wrote:
Those who like increased map diversity think about this.
Among the 130 best games of all tie. 93 of them were played on standard maps.
And how many of all maps were standard? Because quantity is useless without scale.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Entire Map Pool from 2010 to 2014. (taken from GSL)
Non-Standard Maps:
Blistering Sands •
Desert Oasis •
Scrap Station •
Steppes of War •
Xel'Naga Caverns •
Kulas Ravine •
Lost Temple •
• Delta Quadrant
Jungle Basin •
Crossfire SE •
Terminus RE •
Crevasse
Dual Sight
Xel'Naga Fortress
Calm Before the Storm
Metropolis
Atlantis Spaceship
ESV Ohana •
GSL Abyssal City
KeSPA Neo Planet S
GSL Icarus •
DF Atlas •
GSL Red City
Alterzim Stronghold •
Daedalus Point
Habitation Station
Heavy Rain
Yeonsu
Waystation
Deadwing
Foxtrot
Nimbus
Total: 33
Metalopolis
Shakuras Plateau
Tal'Darim Altar
Bel'Shir Beach
Antiga Shipyard
Cloud Kingdom
Daybreak
Entombed Valley
GSL Bel'Shir Vestige
Whirlwind
GSL Akilon Flats •
GSL Star Station •
Frost
Polar Night
Overgrowth
Merry Go Round
King Sejong Station
Catellena
Total Maps: 18
There have actually been more non-standard maps than standard maps.I'm not advocating a completely standard map pool, but the argument new maps means more unique builds is not necessarily an argument for it being a better map or better gameplay.
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i'm not talking about this season's maps specifically, more of maps as a whole and for the future. it's unfortunate that a couple of maps one time have completely killed a lot of people's desire for experimental maps in general, since there are plenty of untested mapping ideas that have the potential to improve the game.
however, a big problem is that experimental maps currently have NO WAY of being tested for balance and gameplay, for several reasons:
-blizz insists on using the same 7 map pool for literally everything including ladder and all WCS events
-progamers consider any practice not done on the official tournament map pool a waste of time
-the mapmaking community is too small and generally not proficient enough at the game to give maps proper testing
-everyone else just plays ladder (see problem 1)
so you're left with 2 sub-optimal solutions:
1) keep filling the pool with daybreak/overgrowth clones with no innovation
2) throw some untested maps right into WCS/ladder and see what happens
i'm obviously biased since i'm a mapmaker, but despite the risks i'd go for option 2 just for the sake of avoiding staleness.
note: option 2 would be far less of a problem if the map pool rotated more frequently, as broken maps could be replaced very quickly, but blizzard's current system gives most maps in general a far longer lifespan than they really should have.
edit:
On July 12 2015 16:54 stuchiu wrote:
I'm not advocating a completely standard map pool, but the argument new maps means more unique builds is not necessarily an argument for it being a better map or better gameplay.
of course not, it's a crapshoot. but it could be a better map or better gameplay, so you get rid of the ones that aren't and reuse ideas from the ones that are. see above for how to improve the system.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
The problem with rotation is a ack of refinement. Antiga/Akilon/WW were in the map pool forever and they were usually stale, but because they were in their forever players got so good at those maps that we got games like Gumiho vs MMA, Gumiho vs Losira, Ryung vs Flash,, DRG vs Ryung, etc.
I think at least 1-2 of the really good maps (I'd say something like Cloud Kingdom pre-HotS/Whirlwind/ WoL TDA/ Frost/KSS post SH nerf) should be allowed to stay in the pool for a longer period of time while you constantly put the other maps on rotation.
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On July 12 2015 17:29 stuchiu wrote:
The problem with rotation is a ack of refinement. Antiga/Akilon/WW were in the map pool forever and they were usually stale, but because they were in their forever players got so good at those maps that we got games like Gumiho vs MMA, Gumiho vs Losira, Ryung vs Flash,, DRG vs Ryung, etc.
I think at least 1-2 of the really good maps (I'd say something like Cloud Kingdom pre-HotS/Whirlwind/ WoL TDA/ Frost/KSS post SH nerf) should be allowed to stay in the pool for a longer period of time while you constantly put the other maps on rotation.
agreed (sort of), personally i'd like more maps to get played in general but i wouldn't really mind if the pure standard maps don't rotate as often - they're going to play more similarly to each other anyway, and it gives players something they can feel "comfortable" on. it's the weird stuff that should definitely be rotating more frequently than maps currently do.
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Yes of course bw is a legendary game because of its diversity. Regarding both maps and strategies. When you gave up on design and balance just add some diversity. Or go play some moba. Fuck that.
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On July 12 2015 08:55 dcemuser wrote:
[*]Zeratul, branded a heretic and a traitor by his people [...]
Well, at least the campaign team is coming up with some fresh ideas.
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Since they talked about map diversity being a factor, I wonder whether we'll get a better map pool in LotV some time soon ? The Blizzard maps they added are mostly horrendous.
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I think the turret tracking would matter more for the immortal than the tank.
But it's more like a cosmetic change, and change for the sake of awesomeness and style. I mean they put in ragdoll death animations for HotS which are totally unnecessary yet amazing.
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EPT
