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On June 26 2015 04:50 BaronVonOwn wrote:
Gateway units in SC2 are not significantly weaker compared to BW. The problem is all the new units that were added, and all the units that were removed. You have things like widow mines and marauders that just massacre zealots and stalkers respectively. Then you have the nerf to storm and the awful colossus replacing the reaver. For these reasons buffing gateway units is not going to make a difference. The game design was fundamentally altered for the worse in SC2.
This is pretty much what happens right now in SC2, units like marauders and roaches are so strong early game compared to gateway units, that make them weaker, its not like BW gateway units were much different, it's just sc2 design at its core.
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8751 Posts
I would like charging zealots to have no unit collision and for the charge to end on the opposite side of the target. That way zealots don't get stuck behind allied units and they can typically attack twice after charging and charging zealots can actually surround their targets. And because charge would be more effective, players might actually not just let it auto cast, so there'd be more micro to do. When zealots attack a ball of enemy ranged units, some of them would want to charge to the back line and some to the front, so as many as possible are attacking simultaneously. The zealots charging to the back line need to be manually cast.
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So basically, severely nerf everything protoss has, but give the stalker +1 damage.
Genius !
NonY's idea is cool. phased out charge zealots would add something interesting to an otherwise boring ability.
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Instead of messing with their pure stats, I have a strange idea.
Each Stalker starts out with energy. When their energy reaches 50 (out of 50), you activate their spell and they create a hallucinated decoy next to them. Some stalkers will not have this decoy (not enough energy) while others will. It will allow stalkers to become a lot more tanky because enemies are forced to hit the decoy as well (they cannot tell the difference).
It doesn't increase the DPS at all since decoys do 0 dmg. It only increases survivability. These decoys may also blink if that tech is unlocked.
I'm not too worried about the decoys taking up the space and blocking the concave of real stalkers, because stalkers may blink.
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or simply have guardian shields grant +3 dmg along with its armor
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On June 29 2015 11:03 NonY wrote:
I would like charging zealots to have no unit collision and for the charge to end on the opposite side of the target. That way zealots don't get stuck behind allied units and they can typically attack twice after charging and charging zealots can actually surround their targets. And because charge would be more effective, players might actually not just let it auto cast, so there'd be more micro to do. When zealots attack a ball of enemy ranged units, some of them would want to charge to the back line and some to the front, so as many as possible are attacking simultaneously. The zealots charging to the back line need to be manually cast.
That's pretty damn interesting. Would you put them on the same collision plane as shades and Disruptors in nova-form, or an entirely new one?
Another thought I had was to give all Protoss units +2 armor and also to reduce to the cooldown on shield recharge post-combat from 10 seconds to nearly instanaeous while they're in a friendly power field.
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Lol giving all protoss units "just" free +1 armor would be a bit too much of a buff I'm afraid. Lings attack would be so weak against toss. Also imagine the outrage in the forums 
Improving the cooldown of the shield regen on the other hand would be a sweet, smooth buff.
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Call me heretic but I propose that we make all gateway units except zealot and dt slower by .05 units and get 20% health and shield but get only 83~85% damage per second and +1 range.
Now where and when you warp in is more meaningful. But you won't lose unit as easily as losing workers or buildings.
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just leave the units alone.wait for colossus to get buffed/replaced
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
Give the disrupter a shield battery buff. If the disrupter detonated around allied units, those units have shields replenished. That will buff gateway units.
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On July 12 2015 20:57 BisuDagger wrote:
Give the disrupter a shield battery buff. If the disrupter detonated around allied units, those units have shields replenished. That will buff gateway units.
Depending on numbers P vT pure chargelot and adepts will be unstoppable.
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
On July 12 2015 20:59 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 20:57 BisuDagger wrote:
Give the disrupter a shield battery buff. If the disrupter detonated around allied units, those units have shields replenished. That will buff gateway units. Depending on numbers P vT pure chargelot and adepts will unstoppable.
Terran DPS is really strong and consider the fact that the disrupter isn't contributing to damage. Balance around a straight shield replenishment versus let's say some sma replenishment and faster regeneration over a few seconds can be considered.
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Straight up buffing gateway units could potentially hurt bio terran really bad. Bio relies on the fact that they could overpower pure gateway army without support units like colossi. If gateway units were to be stronger then that will leave bio powerless except there are some nerfs on Protoss other units or buffs on terran to compensate.
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On July 12 2015 22:31 Wildmoon wrote:
Straight up buffing gateway units could potentially hurt bio terran really bad. Bio relies on the fact that they could overpower pure gateway army without support units like colossi. If gateway units were to be stronger then that will leave bio powerless except there are some nerfs on Protoss other units or buffs on terran to compensate.
This is true, which is why the buffs I suggest on the first page include some nerfs to Blink and Forcefield.
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There's a legitimate worry about the power of warpgate if you increase the stats on gateway units. Not only can a warp in occur anywhere with a pylon or deployed warp prism, it also gives you the unit around thirty seconds earlier than traditional production. This is why the timing of warp gate research finishing could decide games in WoL PvP (3 or 5 stalkers vs 7 is very tough). Some have suggested changing warpgates to be less efficient at making units than gateways, but I think there might be a simpler way to take the edge off of early warpgate aggression while still allowing the gateway units themselves to be more powerful. And that is: make transforming each gateway to warpgate cost the minerals and build time of a zealot. A warpgate is more useful than a gateway, so it makes sense that it would cost more. Since it gives you the units it produces almost a production cycle early, and with more flexibility with regard to location, it makes sense that this additional cost would match up with the cost of one unit. An 8 gate that has to spend 800 extra minerals transforming its gateways to warp gates would be much less powerful, but still a bit better than an 8 gate that declines to transform its gateways, spends the time waiting for its units to finish and then walks across the map (or arrives at the same time with 8 less units).
Such a change also delays the Protoss maxing out and makes the maxed out bank smaller at any particular point in time just by nature of being extra infrastructure cost, so the power of remaxing with zealots and stalkers as compared to units which must wait their full build time to be produced is indirectly addressed. Since it's the warp gate itself that enables most of the strongest independent applications of gateway units it makes sense that it would be the warp gate that would have additional cost rather than zealots and stalkers suffering a tax on their effectiveness in all situations.
There might even be room to experiment with bringing back the WoL alpha's 2 gate proxy pylon with warp gates able to be placed on the map without research for 250 minerals and a build time of 95 seconds. That might demand a shift to very aggressive openings in PvP, though, just to be safe from a proxy pylon.
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I think that no unit ever should get a damage buff. Everything does too much damage already and any requests for damage buffs just only increase the inflation. The best way to buff gateway units would be to just nerf roaches and bio slightly.
The talk about removing FF is silly, FF is cool, interesting and fantasticly visual, it's one of the best inventions of SC2.
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
On July 13 2015 02:33 opisska wrote:
I think that no unit ever should get a damage buff. Everything does too much damage already and any requests for damage buffs just only increase the inflation. The best way to buff gateway units would be to just nerf roaches and bio slightly.
The talk about removing FF is silly, FF is cool, interesting and fantasticly visual, it's one of the best inventions of SC2.
I agree the FF is a cool ability and nice visual, however I think that FF should have a health bar to make it breakable.
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On July 13 2015 02:31 Ball656 wrote:
There's a legitimate worry about the power of warpgate if you increase the stats on gateway units. Not only can a warp in occur anywhere with a pylon or deployed warp prism, it also gives you the unit around thirty seconds earlier than traditional production. This is why the timing of warp gate research finishing could decide games in WoL PvP (3 or 5 stalkers vs 7 is very tough). Some have suggested changing warpgates to be less efficient at making units than gateways, but I think there might be a simpler way to take the edge off of early warpgate aggression while still allowing the gateway units themselves to be more powerful. And that is: make transforming each gateway to warpgate cost the minerals and build time of a zealot. A warpgate is more useful than a gateway, so it makes sense that it would cost more. Since it gives you the units it produces almost a production cycle early, and with more flexibility with regard to location, it makes sense that this additional cost would match up with the cost of one unit. An 8 gate that has to spend 800 extra minerals transforming its gateways to warp gates would be much less powerful, but still a bit better than an 8 gate that declines to transform its gateways, spends the time waiting for its units to finish and then walks across the map (or arrives at the same time with 8 less units).
Such a change also delays the Protoss maxing out and makes the maxed out bank smaller at any particular point in time just by nature of being extra infrastructure cost, so the power of remaxing with zealots and stalkers as compared to units which must wait their full build time to be produced is indirectly addressed. Since it's the warp gate itself that enables most of the strongest independent applications of gateway units it makes sense that it would be the warp gate that would have additional cost rather than zealots and stalkers suffering a tax on their effectiveness in all situations.
There might even be room to experiment with bringing back the WoL alpha's 2 gate proxy pylon with warp gates able to be placed on the map without research for 250 minerals and a build time of 95 seconds. That might demand a shift to very aggressive openings in PvP, though, just to be safe from a proxy pylon.
Although Warp Gate rushes are a problem my bigger personal gripe with Warp Gate is that its a non-decision.
Why would anybody ever not get Warp Gate in this game. There is absolutely no choice and no decision making involved. The rules are clear: Get Warp Gate you idiot!
It is Cyber-Core tech which you need to get anyways. Its cheap and it only brings benefits. There is no reason not to research it with 50/50 costs and no other useful early game upgrades at Cyber-Core. And there is no reason not to use it when you have it.
Instead, I would like to see a role for both Gateways and Warp Gates. Differentiate between these two and give us a chance to actually make a decision. Give us some reason to think instead of follow.
Thats why I suggest making Gateways produce units on mass faster then Warp Gates can. If you want to build a big army or remax after a fight you should have Gateways. If you want to reinforce during a fight or harass your opponent you should have Warp Gates. You can even have a mix of both and use them in parallel.
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EPT
