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Everybody has been complaining, rightly, that Protoss is too weak.
There are many evidences that buffing gateway units would be at least part of a good fix, since LotV expects more mobile armies, and expensive units have historically been troublesome to balance. Blizzard has tipped to this when they buffed Charge, but this also shows that they are very reluctant to apply direct stat buffs on units (perhaps it is too much work to rebalance everything around it).
Do you guys have any ideas?
I would like to see them experiment with one thing in particular: buff Stalker's attack upgrade. Stalkers suck lategame (even more so than Roaches) and this is a reason why. I'm not sure of +1 Blink timings, but if they become too strong, there are other counter measures they can take that have less impact in the game. This would help one of the more mobile units in the Protoss arsenal, perhaps helping defend expansions far from the main.
Disclaimer: I play Zerg.
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The most popular thing that could help protoss is the following idea.
Buff all the warp gate units, to the point of holding their own.
Nerf the warp in ability to balance the all ins, the warp in needs a huge nerf.
Basically they should have let the warp nerf, maybe nerf it even more but buff the warp gate units.
Instead they made the Adepts to strong and let the warp in just like HotS
And this leads to 4 gate adept all ins that basically win you the game.
Stalker could get more HP maybe an upgrade to range.
Zealots are overlaping to much with adepts, they should be 50 minerals but have less HP/SH that way you could make more Zealots, Charge also cheaper and faster to get.
Adept is to strong i say, less DPS would be okay.
There are many ways to buff them but they need to kill mass stalker and other all ins, remove FF and make a sentry a more battle support like regenrating shields etc.
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I would like to see a lategame upgrade for Blink that adds +damage for the first shot after you blink. And maybe a lategame upgrade to +armor for gateway units only, available on Templar Archives.
How does that sound?
And to expand on that, I there could be an upgrade to add, say, 50 additional shields to all gateway units (similar to adept upgrade in LotV right now). You see, I don't like the idea of nerfing warpgates, they are very impactful design choice for Protoss. I don't think it's impossible to balance gateway units withought the warpgate nerf. You just need to design interesting upgrades.
Btw, shield upgrade across the board for gateway units would also encourage more Ghost use, which is nonexistant currently.
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My 2 cents:
Zealots:
HP: 100
Shield: 60
Attack Speed: increase to 0.9.
Upgrades: Speed upgrade to 2.95, Shield upgrade + 30.
Stalkers:
HP:120
Shield:100
Attack: 15 (+1)
Attack vs Armored: 24 (+2)
Archons:
Shield: Start with 3 and goes to 6 after +3 Shield upgrade.
Other changes:
1. Remove Immortal.
2. Remove Sentry.
3. Shield change: Shields are independent of the unit type. Example: Stalkers are armored units. When attacked by an unsieged Tank, Stalkers receive 15 damage instead of the 25 while shields are on. If shields are 0 then the stalker will receive 25 damage.
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I agree. Remove forcefield and make hallucination cheaper and add range spell cast to it. There is a lot of cool things what blizzard cloud try only if they'd be willing to test BETA more aggressively. It would also add to lotv popularity.
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Italy12248 Posts
Straight up increase stats on zealots and stalkers tbh; possibly nerf Guardian Shield along with that. Between the economy and warpgate nerf they have plenty of room to do that. Things like warpgate and blink timings are naturally weakened by the economy anyway (they take longer to hit, compared to how an opponent's build develops).
Unfortunately, they aren't likely to remove forcefields any time soon, so that's not happening.
Also, anything linked to upgrades isn't a good idea at all. Tech is much less useful in lotv because it's just easier to mass cheap units; balancing Protoss around some upgrade makes their early game even weaker. Stat upgrades on the other hand are fine because you can fine tune the scaling of units with upgrades.
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Honestly in LotV as a Protoss I don't feel like it is very needed.
I've been able to play PvT lategame scenarios without even having AoE. I've done some Triple Forge and it's really strong, because of the insane amount of Shields Adepts get.
In TvP specifically Bio don't really work straight up against Protoss anymore, they have to drop you to death or mix in Liberators/Banshees and most of all Widow Mines.
You can keep Terran back with the use of Adepts, Prism/Oracle harass and using Stasis Trap.
I haven't played much lategame PvZ, but early game seem very Protoss favoured untill Lurkers&other high tech units come in to save the day.
I think if we want stronger Gateway units it would be through removing Guardian Shield and giving some other buff in spread out scenarios. Or Guardian Shield could be made a purely defensive option through buildings or something.
I'm attacking Guardian Shield, because it's a spell that purely benefits from the ball of death and is now even more crucial with double Marauder shot.
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I'd simply improve the DPS of stalkers and sentries, because they are pretty bad and the protoss ground to air damage has always sucked. Zealots are fine.
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On June 26 2015 01:05 Salteador Neo wrote:
I'd simply improve the DPS of stalkers and sentries, because they are pretty bad and the protoss ground to air damage has always sucked. Zealots are fine.
Let's all forget about 7gate, blink allins, 4 gate etc where mostly stalkers are utilised. You seriously think those strongest allins in SC2 would not get disgustingly OP with simple dmg increase? It has to be in a way of upgrading in lategame.
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On June 26 2015 01:55 _indigo_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 01:05 Salteador Neo wrote:
I'd simply improve the DPS of stalkers and sentries, because they are pretty bad and the protoss ground to air damage has always sucked. Zealots are fine. Let's all forget about 7gate, blink allins, 4 gate etc where mostly stalkers are utilised. You seriously think those strongest allins in SC2 would not get disgustingly OP with simple dmg increase? It has to be in a way of upgrading in lategame.
The economy itself is a huge nerf to all these strategies you brought up. They're weaker in LotV even with no stats changes.
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On June 25 2015 22:41 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
The most popular thing that could help protoss is the following idea.
Buff all the warp gate units, to the point of holding their own.
Nerf the warp in ability to balance the all ins, the warp in needs a huge nerf.
I hate the idea of nerfing Warp Gate because it makes Protoss unique and interesting.
Also the real problem with Protoss balancing early game isn't Warp Gate, it is the Sentry and Forcefield.
Eventually I'll probably make my own version of SC2, but my solution to this specific issue is the following:
-Increase Zealot attack speed and shields by ~10.
-Increase Stalker damage versus armored by ~1 (to help versus mass Roach specifically) and attack speed.
-Increase Blink cooldown from 10 to ~14 seconds.
-Increase Sentry damage by ~1, and increase their hitpoints and shields by ~10.
-Make FF similar to Time Warp (though with an AOE similar to FF, Time Warp would also be removed) and reduce movespeed of units inside the FF by ~40%.
On June 26 2015 01:55 _indigo_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 01:05 Salteador Neo wrote:
I'd simply improve the DPS of stalkers and sentries, because they are pretty bad and the protoss ground to air damage has always sucked. Zealots are fine. Let's all forget about 7gate, blink allins, 4 gate etc where mostly stalkers are utilised. You seriously think those strongest allins in SC2 would not get disgustingly OP with simple dmg increase? It has to be in a way of upgrading in lategame.
The above changes can't be done alone, they have to done in conjunction with other minor changes to other races, but obviously an increase in Blink cooldown mitigates Blink all-ins to some extent and the 7 Gate is weakened by FF changes. Changes to other races would mitigate the power of the 4 gate.
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Push warp gate back to a Twilight upgrade for 200/200
Buff Zealots so they can semi defend drops
Buff Stalkers against light
Remove Sentries from the game or total overhaul of FF
Profit
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On June 26 2015 02:41 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 22:41 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
The most popular thing that could help protoss is the following idea.
Buff all the warp gate units, to the point of holding their own.
Nerf the warp in ability to balance the all ins, the warp in needs a huge nerf.
I hate the idea of nerfing Warp Gate because it makes Protoss unique and interesting. Also the real problem with Protoss balancing early game isn't Warp Gate, it is the Sentry and Forcefield. Eventually I'll probably make my own version of SC2, but my solution to this specific issue is the following: -Increase Zealot attack speed and shields by ~10. -Increase Stalker damage versus armored by ~1 (to help versus mass Roach specifically) and attack speed. -Increase Blink cooldown from 10 to ~14 seconds. -Increase Sentry damage by ~1, and increase their hitpoints and shields by ~10. -Make FF similar to Time Warp (though with an AOE similar to FF, Time Warp would also be removed) and reduce movespeed of units inside the FF by ~40%. Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 01:55 _indigo_ wrote:On June 26 2015 01:05 Salteador Neo wrote:
I'd simply improve the DPS of stalkers and sentries, because they are pretty bad and the protoss ground to air damage has always sucked. Zealots are fine. Let's all forget about 7gate, blink allins, 4 gate etc where mostly stalkers are utilised. You seriously think those strongest allins in SC2 would not get disgustingly OP with simple dmg increase? It has to be in a way of upgrading in lategame. The above changes can't be done alone, they have to done in conjunction with other minor changes to other races, but obviously an increase in Blink cooldown mitigates Blink all-ins to some extent and the 7 Gate is weakened by FF changes. Changes to other races would mitigate the power of the 4 gate.
Your wrong, FF is not the only problem, look at 4 gate adepts, a strong warpgate unit used for all in and it works.
If you want warpagate units to be strong you cant also also a good warp in.
Im sorry but its OP. And right now everyone knows how OP is the 4 gate adept all in cuz it uses a strong warpgate unit + warp in BS.
And it will be nerfed sooner or later.
I suggest a big Nerf to warp in and making your units good + remove FF.
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On June 26 2015 03:20 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 02:41 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 25 2015 22:41 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
The most popular thing that could help protoss is the following idea.
Buff all the warp gate units, to the point of holding their own.
Nerf the warp in ability to balance the all ins, the warp in needs a huge nerf.
I hate the idea of nerfing Warp Gate because it makes Protoss unique and interesting. Also the real problem with Protoss balancing early game isn't Warp Gate, it is the Sentry and Forcefield. Eventually I'll probably make my own version of SC2, but my solution to this specific issue is the following: -Increase Zealot attack speed and shields by ~10. -Increase Stalker damage versus armored by ~1 (to help versus mass Roach specifically) and attack speed. -Increase Blink cooldown from 10 to ~14 seconds. -Increase Sentry damage by ~1, and increase their hitpoints and shields by ~10. -Make FF similar to Time Warp (though with an AOE similar to FF, Time Warp would also be removed) and reduce movespeed of units inside the FF by ~40%. On June 26 2015 01:55 _indigo_ wrote:On June 26 2015 01:05 Salteador Neo wrote:
I'd simply improve the DPS of stalkers and sentries, because they are pretty bad and the protoss ground to air damage has always sucked. Zealots are fine. Let's all forget about 7gate, blink allins, 4 gate etc where mostly stalkers are utilised. You seriously think those strongest allins in SC2 would not get disgustingly OP with simple dmg increase? It has to be in a way of upgrading in lategame. The above changes can't be done alone, they have to done in conjunction with other minor changes to other races, but obviously an increase in Blink cooldown mitigates Blink all-ins to some extent and the 7 Gate is weakened by FF changes. Changes to other races would mitigate the power of the 4 gate. Your wrong, FF is not the only problem, look at 4 gate adepts, a strong warpgate unit used for all in and it works.
I'm wasn't even considering the Adept. It is way too strong right now and will get nerfed before release, or Protoss and the other races will be completely rebuilt around it.
Anyway, you don't know the changes to the other races I suggest, which as I said are what would mitigate the power of the 4 Gate so this is a pretty useless conversation.
Blizzard has backed themselves in a corner with all the hard counters and the all or nothing abilities they've created (such as FF, Abduct, ect). So what they can do is very limited, and what will be done is they'll add more abilities and hard counters, which will further erode the game. That's all they know how to do.
LOTV is not a serious game.
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On June 26 2015 03:39 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 03:20 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On June 26 2015 02:41 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 25 2015 22:41 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
The most popular thing that could help protoss is the following idea.
Buff all the warp gate units, to the point of holding their own.
Nerf the warp in ability to balance the all ins, the warp in needs a huge nerf.
I hate the idea of nerfing Warp Gate because it makes Protoss unique and interesting. Also the real problem with Protoss balancing early game isn't Warp Gate, it is the Sentry and Forcefield. Eventually I'll probably make my own version of SC2, but my solution to this specific issue is the following: -Increase Zealot attack speed and shields by ~10. -Increase Stalker damage versus armored by ~1 (to help versus mass Roach specifically) and attack speed. -Increase Blink cooldown from 10 to ~14 seconds. -Increase Sentry damage by ~1, and increase their hitpoints and shields by ~10. -Make FF similar to Time Warp (though with an AOE similar to FF, Time Warp would also be removed) and reduce movespeed of units inside the FF by ~40%. On June 26 2015 01:55 _indigo_ wrote:On June 26 2015 01:05 Salteador Neo wrote:
I'd simply improve the DPS of stalkers and sentries, because they are pretty bad and the protoss ground to air damage has always sucked. Zealots are fine. Let's all forget about 7gate, blink allins, 4 gate etc where mostly stalkers are utilised. You seriously think those strongest allins in SC2 would not get disgustingly OP with simple dmg increase? It has to be in a way of upgrading in lategame. The above changes can't be done alone, they have to done in conjunction with other minor changes to other races, but obviously an increase in Blink cooldown mitigates Blink all-ins to some extent and the 7 Gate is weakened by FF changes. Changes to other races would mitigate the power of the 4 gate. Your wrong, FF is not the only problem, look at 4 gate adepts, a strong warpgate unit used for all in and it works. I'm wasn't even considering the Adept. It is way too strong right now and will get nerfed before release, or Protoss and the other races will be completely rebuilt around it.
But protoss is also incredibly weak right now. Something's gonna need to be buffed, even more so if the adept is getting nerfed.
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On June 26 2015 03:41 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 03:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 26 2015 03:20 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On June 26 2015 02:41 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 25 2015 22:41 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
The most popular thing that could help protoss is the following idea.
Buff all the warp gate units, to the point of holding their own.
Nerf the warp in ability to balance the all ins, the warp in needs a huge nerf.
I hate the idea of nerfing Warp Gate because it makes Protoss unique and interesting. Also the real problem with Protoss balancing early game isn't Warp Gate, it is the Sentry and Forcefield. Eventually I'll probably make my own version of SC2, but my solution to this specific issue is the following: -Increase Zealot attack speed and shields by ~10. -Increase Stalker damage versus armored by ~1 (to help versus mass Roach specifically) and attack speed. -Increase Blink cooldown from 10 to ~14 seconds. -Increase Sentry damage by ~1, and increase their hitpoints and shields by ~10. -Make FF similar to Time Warp (though with an AOE similar to FF, Time Warp would also be removed) and reduce movespeed of units inside the FF by ~40%. On June 26 2015 01:55 _indigo_ wrote:On June 26 2015 01:05 Salteador Neo wrote:
I'd simply improve the DPS of stalkers and sentries, because they are pretty bad and the protoss ground to air damage has always sucked. Zealots are fine. Let's all forget about 7gate, blink allins, 4 gate etc where mostly stalkers are utilised. You seriously think those strongest allins in SC2 would not get disgustingly OP with simple dmg increase? It has to be in a way of upgrading in lategame. The above changes can't be done alone, they have to done in conjunction with other minor changes to other races, but obviously an increase in Blink cooldown mitigates Blink all-ins to some extent and the 7 Gate is weakened by FF changes. Changes to other races would mitigate the power of the 4 gate. Your wrong, FF is not the only problem, look at 4 gate adepts, a strong warpgate unit used for all in and it works. I'm wasn't even considering the Adept. It is way too strong right now and will get nerfed before release, or Protoss and the other races will be completely rebuilt around it. But protoss is also incredibly weak right now. Something's gonna need to be buffed, even more so if the adept is getting nerfed.
I don't think you followed the conversation, re-read my first post. I suggested a whole slew of buffs.
I think the Adept should be removed, or completely rebalanced to be a scouting harass unit in the same vein as the Reaper. Much like the Tempest with the Carrier, it overlaps existing units too much.
The last thing Protoss needs is to be balanced around a bunch of weak units and a few powerful ones again...
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My ideas
- Stalker: nerf stalker speed to match zealots. Remove "armored" flag. Remove blink. Give more HP or damage. Stalker becomes a frontline ranged unit.
- Adept: remove shadow. Add blink. Overall reduce their strength.
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I thought about the gateway units recently and came up with some tweaks to the stalker. Overhaul of one unit is probably more realistic than of the whole gateway arsenal 
Its heavy discussed, but I think the sentry is fine. Overall through positioning, certain unit compositions and mostly the vulnerability of the sentry itself, the forcefield play can be countered.
Blink stalkers on the otherside can be more frustrating to play against. Their high hitpoints combined with mobility means very little reward for catching them offguard. On the other hand we see in Lotv the need for mobilty to gain mapcontroll or to defend multiple bases. From what I observed at the beginning of the beta, toss players relied very much on blink stalkers but they tended to underperform. Because of the faster start into the game and earlier units, it feels like Blink comes too late (as Teoita already wrote).
So my proposals to the Stalker are:
Dmg: from 10(14) +1(1) to 11(17) +1(2) - 10(21)% increase
Speed from 2.9531 to 3.1 - 5% increase
Hp: from 80/80 to 65/60 - 22% decrease
Blink from 150/150 170sec to 100/100 80sec
With the addition of the Adept, does Protoss really need two tanky ranged basic units? I don't think so. I think it is time for the stalker to live up more to what the name and model implies: a mobile unit that can hunt valuable targets over the map, instead of standing in the heat of the battle.
With earlier blink and a more chasing potential against offcreep roaches, they should be better for defending, but perfom worse against queens, lings and hydras. Focussing moving lurkers would be more rewarding, but stalkers are getting shredded even faster under their fire.
In PvT they would feel a lot more vulnerable in direct engagements, but be better for picking of medivacs, vikings or other armored units. That complements the role of the Adept imo. Banshees need one shot less, but still be cost ineffective. Also higher movement and earlier blink helps catching them
I feel that blinking to snipe will get more use, but also blink stalkers won't feel as unkillable anymore. Allins could still work with the faster timing, but specially offensive - with no meat shield or sim city - 35 hitpoints less are a big deal. My biggest concern is the nerf in direct fights with mutalisks.
Also as the stalker gets more specialized, the Adept could get less, which means less damage against light, but more overall. Maybe from 10(23) damage every 1.61 seconds - dps: 6.21(14.28) to 12(19) damage every 1.46 seconds - dps: 8.22(13.01). This unfortuanally means one shot more against worker and marines w/o combat shields, but at a little faster rate.
What do you think?
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Swap the Sentry and the Immortal as far as production goes, and weaken/cheapen the Immortal. Lower the Adept's HP to 60, and tie Adept's shield increase upgrade to a smaller shield increase (maybe 20) to Zealots as well, improving Zealot tanking in the mid and late game.
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Gateway units in SC2 are not significantly weaker compared to BW. The problem is all the new units that were added, and all the units that were removed. You have things like widow mines and marauders that just massacre zealots and stalkers respectively. Then you have the nerf to storm and the awful colossus replacing the reaver. For these reasons buffing gateway units is not going to make a difference. The game design was fundamentally altered for the worse in SC2.
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EPT
