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Brief background- been playing starcraft competitively since 2008 when I discovered the pro scene through youtube vods (klazart, diggity, moletrap, cholera etc) played sc2 since WoL beta and have been high masters since masters was a thing.
First- More drastic changes need to be tested especially for a prolonged beta. Like most everyone else I was estatic about the new economy changes they unveiled at blizzcon, 12 workers to skip the boring first 3 mins of a game? Bases that mined out faster? Awesome! But upon further digging the econ changes were pretty hollow, its just less resources per base so you mine out faster. the "3 base cap" is still a thing.
Teamliquid came forth with a possible solution to this with Double Harvest, a much more broodwar type economy. Simply put you're not punished for not expanding but you're rewarded for expanding, effectively getting rid of the 3 base cap while still allowing defensive play to still exist in the game.
From blizzards response to the Double Harvest it seems like they don't really understand it and we haven't heard anything about it since... which brings me to point two-
Secondly- In addition to more radical changes being tested we really need to strengthen the communication between the developers and the community, Psione- you're awesome mate but ultimately you're a middle man relaying messages. Blizzard please just talk to us and let us know whats going on as to why you're doing or not doing things. For example skins, design decisions etc. which brings me to my third point...
Thirdly- The units for Lotv feel pretty underwhelming on the whole. With the exception in my eyes being the lurker and Disruptor. The cyclone actually annoys me because its basically just letting Terran players micro a unit like protoss micro Phoenix (just moving around and clicking while the unit attacks while moving. Mech didn't need another strong ground to ground unit, it really didn't. So the cyclone when first released was the new "micro goliath" well now it doesn't shoot up until fusion core so its just a ground phoenix... Honestly, you gave us back the lurker just give us back the goliath at this point.
The Liberator is also a funky unit that doesn't sit well with me. Its a sky tank that its also a valkyrie for some reason. If blizzard wants to make a new version of starcraft they should make new units with new concepts not half assed rehashes which just about all of the new units are, even the disruptor. We want our units to have more microbility this does not mean every unit needs abilities, this means units need to be more responsive like the Depth of micro video Lalush made some time ago suggests.
I'm on the fence about the Ravager it was cool until they overnerfed it, it was too strong for sure but now its too weak... like a middle ground can't be that difficult to find.
Overall I'm not really saying anything that hasn't been said before by people way more popular with a lot more pull in the scene, people like catz and incontrol for example.
To me, if blizzard is hell bent on controlling the scene and not letting the community run the game they really need to step up their game and be more open about wtf is going on in their offices, with broodwar making a comeback in Korea and Starbow being released Its getting to the point where vanilla sc2 is not that appealing anymore, seriously the one thing it has on starbow, broodwar, and sc2broodwar is easy and effective match making.
I've been writing this over the course of several hours while I'm at work so let me just reiterate the main point of my post because reading this back to myself its kind of jumbled and all over the place:
I'm frustrated and disappointed with the direction Lotv is taking and Blizzards lack of communication. The new units feel weird and out of place especially the Terran units.The new economy doesn't solve the core issue of the current hots economy it just puts a timer on turtles which is a good thing but more could be done, just test the damn double harvest already. I've been playing starbow and Iccup recently and been having more fun with those than either hots or lotv and if things continue this way I don't see myself playing lotv past the campaign. I'm making this post to convey what I know a lot of people in the community are feeling and to hopefully get blizzards attention.
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Agreed with every single point you made.
Disappointed with (yet again) the lack of communication and collaboration with the community from blizzard, the unit design and slow patches.
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On June 08 2015 12:02 deth wrote:
Agreed with every single point you made.
Disappointed with (yet again) the lack of communication and collaboration with the community from blizzard, the unit design and slow patches.
The good old /sign. Iam glad that you are disappointed.
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On June 08 2015 12:13 lolias wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 12:02 deth wrote:
Agreed with every single point you made.
Disappointed with (yet again) the lack of communication and collaboration with the community from blizzard, the unit design and slow patches. The good old /sign. Iam glad that you are disappointed.
did you mean to quote me?
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On June 08 2015 10:48 captainwaffles wrote:
I don't see myself playing lotv past the campaign. I'm making this post to convey what I know a lot of people in the community are feeling and to hopefully get blizzards attention.
Why even buy the game and reward Blizzard for their subpar offering. Watch someone stream it if you're curious. Starbow and BW are where it's at, no need to buy shit game.
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On June 08 2015 12:50 jotmang-nojem wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 10:48 captainwaffles wrote:
I don't see myself playing lotv past the campaign. I'm making this post to convey what I know a lot of people in the community are feeling and to hopefully get blizzards attention. Why even buy the game and reward Blizzard for their subpar offering. Watch someone stream it if you're curious. Starbow and BW are where it's at, no need to buy shit game.
I really want to play the campaign because I really enjoyed the WOL campaign, though the HOTS one was medicore... but I'm starting to think maybe I should skip.
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Theyre too busy doing this
Im not joking. This is seriously what I think. Too busy on Hearthstone and Heroes of the storm while spending 10 minutes a day on LOTV. LOTV looks totally disappointing with all those new units and gameplay. I don get any WOW effect except maybe Lurker.
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Completely agree on everything
1. Balance changes are minuscule and geared in the direction of small fine tuning steps when we should be testing radical economy changes and drastic racial changes that the community has long despised such as Gateway reworking.
2. Zero communication, once again with David it feels more like, "meanwhile back at the farm.." dealing with Starcraft matters. Psione is little more then a messenger and has nothing to do with it, he's awesome.
3. The units just suck, sorry but they're bad, like really bad, save the Lurker/Disruptor/Adept the other units are just awful both aesthetically and game play wise, the Cyclone micros for the Terran, the Liberator awkwardly fills a role that the tank should fill on it's own, Ravager was nerf batted and the Kog'Maw thing already wasn't too amazing, seriously, these units suck. Their interaction are shallow in both micro potential and skill cap and they look like they could all be MOBA characters at worst and pathetic knock off combinations of previously well designed units at best.
Disappointed doesn't even describe what I feel, David and the team are completely and totally dropping the ball on this so far.
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On June 08 2015 12:50 jotmang-nojem wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 10:48 captainwaffles wrote:
I don't see myself playing lotv past the campaign. I'm making this post to convey what I know a lot of people in the community are feeling and to hopefully get blizzards attention. Why even buy the game and reward Blizzard for their subpar offering. Watch someone stream it if you're curious. Starbow and BW are where it's at, no need to buy shit game.
Apologies for double posting but this as well, if Starbow had a ranked ladder, there would be no reason to play vanilla SC2, like none whatsoever, it's a vastly superior game design wise, but no ladder means nobody plays reliably understandably. Kim could take some pointers from this most definitely.
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It's clear a growing number of users feel Blizzard has abandoned the game, must we have a personal letter from everyone to blizzard in the public forum? I wish Blizzard would go about all this different but time and time they have proven to be slow.
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Starbow does have a ranked ladder but its a real pain to get going.
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On June 08 2015 13:13 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 12:50 jotmang-nojem wrote:On June 08 2015 10:48 captainwaffles wrote:
I don't see myself playing lotv past the campaign. I'm making this post to convey what I know a lot of people in the community are feeling and to hopefully get blizzards attention. Why even buy the game and reward Blizzard for their subpar offering. Watch someone stream it if you're curious. Starbow and BW are where it's at, no need to buy shit game. Apologies for double posting but this as well, if Starbow had a ranked ladder, there would be no reason to play vanilla SC2, like none whatsoever, it's a vastly superior game design wise, but no ladder means nobody plays reliably understandably. Kim could take some pointers from this most definitely.
http://starbowmod.com/
Now when you know that Starbow has a ranked ladder, can you tell me why this isn't the case then? You have to realize that people have different taste, and that some just don't like Starbow. "Vastly superior game design wise" doesn't mean much. A ton of people are still whining how BW is superior, yet they are still playing SC2 and just keep whining...
People are hypocrites, you should take everything what they say with a grain of salt. I hear people saying "LOTV needs ranked ladder!" while there is hidden matchmaking system and I don't think that ladder would've changed anything at all, not until they make a stable version and get a lot more people in it.
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at least demonstrate an understanding of what Bliz is doing if you want to be heard
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On June 08 2015 14:32 y0su wrote:
at least demonstrate an understanding of what Bliz is doing if you want to be heard
I don't understand what they're doing, I would very much like to understand what they're doing, one of the main points of this post...please elaborate?
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On June 08 2015 14:08 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 13:13 Beelzebub1 wrote:On June 08 2015 12:50 jotmang-nojem wrote:On June 08 2015 10:48 captainwaffles wrote:
I don't see myself playing lotv past the campaign. I'm making this post to convey what I know a lot of people in the community are feeling and to hopefully get blizzards attention. Why even buy the game and reward Blizzard for their subpar offering. Watch someone stream it if you're curious. Starbow and BW are where it's at, no need to buy shit game. Apologies for double posting but this as well, if Starbow had a ranked ladder, there would be no reason to play vanilla SC2, like none whatsoever, it's a vastly superior game design wise, but no ladder means nobody plays reliably understandably. Kim could take some pointers from this most definitely. http://starbowmod.com/Now when you know that Starbow has a ranked ladder, can you tell me why this isn't the case then? You have to realize that people have different taste, and that some just don't like Starbow. "Vastly superior game design wise" doesn't mean much. A ton of people are still whining how BW is superior, yet they are still playing SC2 and just keep whining... People are hypocrites, you should take everything what they say with a grain of salt. I hear people saying "LOTV needs ranked ladder!" while there is hidden matchmaking system and I don't think that ladder would've changed anything at all, not until they make a stable version and get a lot more people in it.
Yeah pretty much this. People don't really know what they want. I totally bought into the whole 'dragoons are awesome add them to SC2' before I went and played starbow and realised that would not be a good idea, at all. Part of the problem is that the people who are largely happy with the game are much less likely to visit and post on the LotV forums.
DotA got a HUGE following and fairly competitive scene despite being a mod in a (not free-to-play, unlike the arcade) game, with no reliable ranked ladder. I think we should know within a few months whether Starbow is really the perfect epitome of design that its supporters claim it is, by the only metric that actually matters - whether or not a lot of people enjoy it and play it. I personally dislike it and think it will flop, but I would love to be proven wrong if only because it might put some more pressure on blizzard.
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I'm getting a strong deja vu vibe from this thread. I have a unique perspective though, as I came from Wc3:ROC and TFT, AND been master while master has been a thing.
*Starts writing open letter to Blizzard, expect new thread incoming*
edit:
Deja vu vibe & jokes aside, I agree with most of what you've written.
Specially disappointed with their consideration of DH that seemed... flawed in the"understanding" department.
The new system is BETTER, but FAR from great.
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I would love to see some combination of the Double Harvest mod and early worker start. I just got the beta and I do enjoy playing it, but I have not been wowed by it yet. Although I do think its very fun and I play it more than I do hots (which is not at all).
I agree with basically everything you said, especially points on the economy and communication.
Please Blizzard, just have open communication with this community that cares a lot about the game you made. I am certain lotv would be a better game with communication between everyone. *And note to the sc2 community, as a whole we could really do a better job of giving constructive and solid feedback to blizzard (the helpful kind) instead of just cutting them down and telling them their game is shit. I wouldn't want to have open communication with a community that is constantly shitting all over the game I was trying to make for them.
In my opinion, the economy change is the only change I am really excited about. When I watched some of the scarlett vs ruff DH show match recently and it went into the late game, zerg was really rewarded for taking 5-6 bases and mining them while the terran turtled on mech. That was great! Expanding out actually gave zerg a viable approach to beating mech late game even with the current set of hots units, because there was such an economic reward for doing so. Avoiding as you mentioned the three base cap, and I loved it. That's what I would like to see in lotv. I honestly could give a crap about lurkers or liberators.
Also, about blizzard making money (which is the end game for them I assume) and in regard to skins... ADOPT THE CSGO MODEL FOR SKINS. Clearly this is the most effective model anyone has done for skins in a game... While I don't care that much for skins myself, I even find myself interested when I am playing csgo. The heroes model of pay 10 fucking dollars for a skin is insane, even 5 on sale is steep in my opinion. My guess is they don't sell as many skins as they could. I would rather gamble on the possibility of winning 4 cool skins then paying 10 for the one skin that anybody can buy for 10.
Blizzard could just do something that is already successful, and adopt that model. I think everything else about heroes skins are cool, they fact that they change the animations is great. If lotv had some skin system like csgo where people could trade skins and it made animations different, I think that people would really enjoy that. Have a market place where such skins attain a value, literally just look at csgo and copy/paste.
My hope is that blizzard has just been focusing A LOT on the release of heroes. Now they will be focusing much more on lotv and its upcoming launch, I really think this could be why patches are slower atm.
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As far as communication goes, yeah it would be nice if they had some kind of weekly blog or w/e just for curiosity's sake, but I doubt it would have any real affect on the direction of the game.
Someone would have to take the time to do the write ups, and people(most of the vocal forum-goers) would complain about anything and everything they shared. They really don't owe you anything, and realistically the lack of a play by play won't hurt sales.
It's likely that they have people they can consult who can give them their concerns on the direction of development. Most people shouting in threads will either have useless advice or things that they are already considering/have considered and heard a thousand times.
These threads are more or less just an opportunity for people who like to complain to complain, little wonder why blizz doesn't address each and every one.
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On June 08 2015 15:06 StalkerFang wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 14:08 Ramiz1989 wrote:On June 08 2015 13:13 Beelzebub1 wrote:On June 08 2015 12:50 jotmang-nojem wrote:On June 08 2015 10:48 captainwaffles wrote:
I don't see myself playing lotv past the campaign. I'm making this post to convey what I know a lot of people in the community are feeling and to hopefully get blizzards attention. Why even buy the game and reward Blizzard for their subpar offering. Watch someone stream it if you're curious. Starbow and BW are where it's at, no need to buy shit game. Apologies for double posting but this as well, if Starbow had a ranked ladder, there would be no reason to play vanilla SC2, like none whatsoever, it's a vastly superior game design wise, but no ladder means nobody plays reliably understandably. Kim could take some pointers from this most definitely. http://starbowmod.com/Now when you know that Starbow has a ranked ladder, can you tell me why this isn't the case then? You have to realize that people have different taste, and that some just don't like Starbow. "Vastly superior game design wise" doesn't mean much. A ton of people are still whining how BW is superior, yet they are still playing SC2 and just keep whining... People are hypocrites, you should take everything what they say with a grain of salt. I hear people saying "LOTV needs ranked ladder!" while there is hidden matchmaking system and I don't think that ladder would've changed anything at all, not until they make a stable version and get a lot more people in it. Yeah pretty much this. People don't really know what they want. I totally bought into the whole 'dragoons are awesome add them to SC2' before I went and played starbow and realised that would not be a good idea, at all. Part of the problem is that the people who are largely happy with the game are much less likely to visit and post on the LotV forums. DotA got a HUGE following and fairly competitive scene despite being a mod in a (not free-to-play, unlike the arcade) game, with no reliable ranked ladder. I think we should know within a few months whether Starbow is really the perfect epitome of design that its supporters claim it is, by the only metric that actually matters - whether or not a lot of people enjoy it and play it. I personally dislike it and think it will flop, but I would love to be proven wrong if only because it might put some more pressure on blizzard.
Dota was always going to be huge.
It got so popular that the Chinese server began to run their own patch, and there are anime/three dynasty/Japanese history inspired dota.
The Japanese historical spin off at some point even over take dota popularity in Hong kong and china net cafe.
I have to say people just arent that interested in hardcore traditional rts, especially one that focus so much more apm and hard mechanics.
Afterall dota was a mod, just looking at the arcade we can see hardly anyone is interested in another rts.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 08 2015 10:48 captainwaffles wrote:
Brief background- been playing starcraft competitively since 2008 when I discovered the pro scene through youtube vods (klazart, diggity, moletrap, cholera etc) played sc2 since WoL beta and have been high masters since masters was a thing.
First- More drastic changes need to be tested especially for a prolonged beta. Like most everyone else I was estatic about the new economy changes they unveiled at blizzcon, 12 workers to skip the boring first 3 mins of a game? Bases that mined out faster? Awesome! But upon further digging the econ changes were pretty hollow, its just less resources per base so you mine out faster. the "3 base cap" is still a thing.
Teamliquid came forth with a possible solution to this with Double Harvest, a much more broodwar type economy. Simply put you're not punished for not expanding but you're rewarded for expanding, effectively getting rid of the 3 base cap while still allowing defensive play to still exist in the game.
From blizzards response to the Double Harvest it seems like they don't really understand it and we haven't heard anything about it since... which brings me to point two-
Secondly- In addition to more radical changes being tested we really need to strengthen the communication between the developers and the community, Psione- you're awesome mate but ultimately you're a middle man relaying messages. Blizzard please just talk to us and let us know whats going on as to why you're doing or not doing things. For example skins, design decisions etc. which brings me to my third point...
Thirdly- The units for Lotv feel pretty underwhelming on the whole. With the exception in my eyes being the lurker and Disruptor. The cyclone actually annoys me because its basically just letting Terran players micro a unit like protoss micro Phoenix (just moving around and clicking while the unit attacks while moving. Mech didn't need another strong ground to ground unit, it really didn't. So the cyclone when first released was the new "micro goliath" well now it doesn't shoot up until fusion core so its just a ground phoenix... Honestly, you gave us back the lurker just give us back the goliath at this point.
The Liberator is also a funky unit that doesn't sit well with me. Its a sky tank that its also a valkyrie for some reason. If blizzard wants to make a new version of starcraft they should make new units with new concepts not half assed rehashes which just about all of the new units are, even the disruptor. We want our units to have more microbility this does not mean every unit needs abilities, this means units need to be more responsive like the Depth of micro video Lalush made some time ago suggests.
I'm on the fence about the Ravager it was cool until they overnerfed it, it was too strong for sure but now its too weak... like a middle ground can't be that difficult to find.
Overall I'm not really saying anything that hasn't been said before by people way more popular with a lot more pull in the scene, people like catz and incontrol for example.
To me, if blizzard is hell bent on controlling the scene and not letting the community run the game they really need to step up their game and be more open about wtf is going on in their offices, with broodwar making a comeback in Korea and Starbow being released Its getting to the point where vanilla sc2 is not that appealing anymore, seriously the one thing it has on starbow, broodwar, and sc2broodwar is easy and effective match making.
I've been writing this over the course of several hours while I'm at work so let me just reiterate the main point of my post because reading this back to myself its kind of jumbled and all over the place:
I'm frustrated and disappointed with the direction Lotv is taking and Blizzards lack of communication. The new units feel weird and out of place especially the Terran units.The new economy doesn't solve the core issue of the current hots economy it just puts a timer on turtles which is a good thing but more could be done, just test the damn double harvest already. I've been playing starbow and Iccup recently and been having more fun with those than either hots or lotv and if things continue this way I don't see myself playing lotv past the campaign. I'm making this post to convey what I know a lot of people in the community are feeling and to hopefully get blizzards attention.
Lol, your post is so far away from everything that is going on its just outright ridiculous and borderline reportable.
You claimed the economic system sucks and the double harvest mod is better and blizzard ignored it. Blizzard looked at the double harvest mod. Its a huge nerf to zerg. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/484962-double-harvesting-replay-analysis). That's why its dumb. I really just don't get your opinion of how its better in any way.
Secondly, Blizzard is very active on the blizzard forums. Another point where its just a lie they don't listen to the community. You can talk to several people of the balance team. Psione is not the only member of the balance team, and they have very open communication with the pro players. They have a chat channel that they communicate with pro players to get their opinions. There is a recent vod for the late game where this was discussed. Go watch their last 2 or 3 vods. if you don't believe me. It is true blizzard puts much more emphasis on communication with people who make a living playing the game rather than more amateur players.
Thirdly, the focus of Legacy of the void has been always on more active armies and more specialization than has been previously available. Terran has a hard time getting into and committing to different tech paths. LOTV now has 2 major tech paths with 3 different transitions. Before, there was almost no transition its either bio and try to end it, or mech into skyterran. Cyclones fulfill a different role than goliaths. The ravagers make it so zerg does have a counter to high sentry counts, but are not useful in large numbers. They are still used as a counter to sentries and static defense. They are still really good units. Just the early game pushes with zerg were nerfed with the idea that playing vs zerg you can expand more safely, which is more consistent with the trend of the game. More specialization, more engagements, higher economy, more tech options.
I like the new units. You say it feels wierd, but it actually feels much more about being mobile and is much more fast paced to me. The goliath reduces specialization which again is not the current focus of the game, and the liberator keeps muta numbers lower with the ability to control ultras with bio.
The economic system in legacy of the void is better than the double harvest mod.
I like the direction the game is going, other than warpgate recall, warpgate recall cycle so protoss barely is on the map still seems a bit retarded. Particularly, I think the lotv beta is funner than starbow.
The most baffling thing to me is, I don't really see why you feel the need to make this post here, where its unlikely to get as much attention from blizzard as it would on the forums where a direct reply from blizzard would be possible. I can hardly disagree more with this reasoning.
User was warned for pure ignorance in this post
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