| Forum Index > Legacy of the Void |
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
On June 08 2015 15:32 ShambhalaWar wrote: Let's hope this is true.My hope is that blizzard has just been focusing A LOT on the release of heroes. Now they will be focusing much more on lotv and its upcoming launch, I really think this could be why patches are slower atm. | ||
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NasusAndDraven
359 Posts
On June 08 2015 13:41 aka_star wrote: It's clear a growing number of users feel Blizzard has abandoned the game, must we have a personal letter from everyone to blizzard in the public forum? I wish Blizzard would go about all this different but time and time they have proven to be slow. On June 08 2015 13:09 covetousrat wrote: Theyre too busy doing this Im not joking. This is seriously what I think. Too busy on Hearthstone and Heroes of the storm while spending 10 minutes a day on LOTV. LOTV looks totally disappointing with all those new units and gameplay. I don get any WOW effect except maybe Lurker. Blizzard did not use 100million dollars on WoL just so they could use 100million more on both HotS and LotV. I dont know the exact sale numbers but from what I can tell the community now is very much smaller than it was 3 years ago. There is no way blizzard is going to go big on LotV. You have to understand that they respond to stock holder demands first and fan demands second. If they can invest in World of Warcraft and Heartstone which give them big returns, they cant really go big on a game just because some fans are really passionate about it. Open letters are not going to work, maybe if you can get 5million of your friends to start playing sc2 then you could have a shot. | ||
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RoieTRS
United States2569 Posts
agreed | ||
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Jenia6109
Russian Federation1607 Posts
On June 08 2015 20:58 NasusAndDraven wrote: Blizzard did not use 100million dollars on WoL just so they could use 100million more on both HotS and LotV. I dont know the exact sale numbers but from what I can tell the community now is very much smaller than it was 3 years ago. There is no way blizzard is going to go big on LotV. You have to understand that they respond to stock holder demands first and fan demands second. If they can invest in World of Warcraft and Heartstone which give them big returns, they cant really go big on a game just because some fans are really passionate about it. Open letters are not going to work, maybe if you can get 5million of your friends to start playing sc2 then you could have a shot. Agree with this so much! People think that a company must do something for them for nothing. Actually they could do many multiplayer updates but they need money for it. Legacy of the Void is all about campaign and they sell a campaign, not multiplayer. Multiplayer is a bonus for fans. They need to make some system to sell multiplayer like they do with Hearthstone and HotS and then multiplayer will grow to new levels. But now it's just "we make long beta because we didn't make new units in time, so while we finish our job you can test the game". | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16378 Posts
On June 08 2015 20:37 tokinho wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 08 2015 10:48 captainwaffles wrote: Brief background- been playing starcraft competitively since 2008 when I discovered the pro scene through youtube vods (klazart, diggity, moletrap, cholera etc) played sc2 since WoL beta and have been high masters since masters was a thing. First- More drastic changes need to be tested especially for a prolonged beta. Like most everyone else I was estatic about the new economy changes they unveiled at blizzcon, 12 workers to skip the boring first 3 mins of a game? Bases that mined out faster? Awesome! But upon further digging the econ changes were pretty hollow, its just less resources per base so you mine out faster. the "3 base cap" is still a thing. Teamliquid came forth with a possible solution to this with Double Harvest, a much more broodwar type economy. Simply put you're not punished for not expanding but you're rewarded for expanding, effectively getting rid of the 3 base cap while still allowing defensive play to still exist in the game. From blizzards response to the Double Harvest it seems like they don't really understand it and we haven't heard anything about it since... which brings me to point two- Secondly- In addition to more radical changes being tested we really need to strengthen the communication between the developers and the community, Psione- you're awesome mate but ultimately you're a middle man relaying messages. Blizzard please just talk to us and let us know whats going on as to why you're doing or not doing things. For example skins, design decisions etc. which brings me to my third point... Thirdly- The units for Lotv feel pretty underwhelming on the whole. With the exception in my eyes being the lurker and Disruptor. The cyclone actually annoys me because its basically just letting Terran players micro a unit like protoss micro Phoenix (just moving around and clicking while the unit attacks while moving. Mech didn't need another strong ground to ground unit, it really didn't. So the cyclone when first released was the new "micro goliath" well now it doesn't shoot up until fusion core so its just a ground phoenix... Honestly, you gave us back the lurker just give us back the goliath at this point. The Liberator is also a funky unit that doesn't sit well with me. Its a sky tank that its also a valkyrie for some reason. If blizzard wants to make a new version of starcraft they should make new units with new concepts not half assed rehashes which just about all of the new units are, even the disruptor. We want our units to have more microbility this does not mean every unit needs abilities, this means units need to be more responsive like the Depth of micro video Lalush made some time ago suggests. I'm on the fence about the Ravager it was cool until they overnerfed it, it was too strong for sure but now its too weak... like a middle ground can't be that difficult to find. Overall I'm not really saying anything that hasn't been said before by people way more popular with a lot more pull in the scene, people like catz and incontrol for example. To me, if blizzard is hell bent on controlling the scene and not letting the community run the game they really need to step up their game and be more open about wtf is going on in their offices, with broodwar making a comeback in Korea and Starbow being released Its getting to the point where vanilla sc2 is not that appealing anymore, seriously the one thing it has on starbow, broodwar, and sc2broodwar is easy and effective match making. I've been writing this over the course of several hours while I'm at work so let me just reiterate the main point of my post because reading this back to myself its kind of jumbled and all over the place: I'm frustrated and disappointed with the direction Lotv is taking and Blizzards lack of communication. The new units feel weird and out of place especially the Terran units.The new economy doesn't solve the core issue of the current hots economy it just puts a timer on turtles which is a good thing but more could be done, just test the damn double harvest already. I've been playing starbow and Iccup recently and been having more fun with those than either hots or lotv and if things continue this way I don't see myself playing lotv past the campaign. I'm making this post to convey what I know a lot of people in the community are feeling and to hopefully get blizzards attention. Lol, your post is so far away from everything that is going on its just outright ridiculous and borderline reportable. You claimed the economic system sucks and the double harvest mod is better and blizzard ignored it. Blizzard looked at the double harvest mod. Its a huge nerf to zerg. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/484962-double-harvesting-replay-analysis). That's why its dumb. I really just don't get your opinion of how its better in any way. Secondly, Blizzard is very active on the blizzard forums. Another point where its just a lie they don't listen to the community. You can talk to several people of the balance team. Psione is not the only member of the balance team, and they have very open communication with the pro players. They have a chat channel that they communicate with pro players to get their opinions. There is a recent vod for the late game where this was discussed. Go watch their last 2 or 3 vods. if you don't believe me. It is true blizzard puts much more emphasis on communication with people who make a living playing the game rather than more amateur players. Thirdly, the focus of Legacy of the void has been always on more active armies and more specialization than has been previously available. Terran has a hard time getting into and committing to different tech paths. LOTV now has 2 major tech paths with 3 different transitions. Before, there was almost no transition its either bio and try to end it, or mech into skyterran. Cyclones fulfill a different role than goliaths. The ravagers make it so zerg does have a counter to high sentry counts, but are not useful in large numbers. They are still used as a counter to sentries and static defense. They are still really good units. Just the early game pushes with zerg were nerfed with the idea that playing vs zerg you can expand more safely, which is more consistent with the trend of the game. More specialization, more engagements, higher economy, more tech options. I like the new units. You say it feels wierd, but it actually feels much more about being mobile and is much more fast paced to me. The goliath reduces specialization which again is not the current focus of the game, and the liberator keeps muta numbers lower with the ability to control ultras with bio. The economic system in legacy of the void is better than the double harvest mod. I like the direction the game is going, other than warpgate recall, warpgate recall cycle so protoss barely is on the map still seems a bit retarded. Particularly, I think the lotv beta is funner than starbow. The most baffling thing to me is, I don't really see why you feel the need to make this post here, where its unlikely to get as much attention from blizzard as it would on the forums where a direct reply from blizzard would be possible. I can hardly disagree more with this reasoning. +1 i'm happy with how LotV is progressing and i'm having fun with the new LotV units. my level of play varies from Silver to Diamond depending on what server i'm on and how intensely i'm playing that season. i'm still in touch with a couple of Blizzard employees on the SC2 team from my time on the ConquerCup and CraftCup. they are more than willing to discuss game play issues regarding LotV. the fact these guys are willing to keep the lines of communication open this long after both the ConquerCup and CraftCup have died is an indicator of how open they are...i'm really just some unimportant nobody. over all i'm happy with the work Blizzard is doing in the RTS genre. relative to what any one else is doing.. Blizzard is just flat out better. compared to some pie-in-the-sky child-like dream world vision of limitless resources SC2:LotV probably does not stack up too well. David Kim , Chris Sigaty , and Dustin Browder are great... period.. end of story. | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3091 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16378 Posts
On June 08 2015 20:58 NasusAndDraven wrote: Blizzard did not use 100million dollars on WoL just so they could use 100million more on both HotS and LotV. I dont know the exact sale numbers but from what I can tell the community now is very much smaller than it was 3 years ago. There is no way blizzard is going to go big on LotV. i'm just happy they are charging the full box $60 USD price in NA. This allows them to do a bit more work on it than if it were just a $40 expansion. | ||
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Pogomais1
3 Posts
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sh1RoKen
Russian Federation93 Posts
There are literally zero chance that they will just "We really like DH concept introduced by the community and we decided to bring it into the game." They are not Valve or Riot who cares about their players. It took them a year to nerf terrans in WoL. Retro paladins were 1-shooting everyone for 6 month at the start of Lich King. Just imagine that zealot have 500 hp, 100 damage and costs 50 minerals. They were not fixing this for 6 month. 5 BM hunters were unbeatable top-1 composition in 5v5 for 4 month at the start of the Pandas. Lets see what they did for HotS in 2014: 1. February 3, 2014: Time Warp cost increased from 75 to 100 Ghosts start with the energy upgrade built in 2. March 1, 2014: Mothership Core vision decreased from 14 to 9 Widow Mine splash damage increased from 40 to 40 +40 shields Hydralisk attack delay decreased from 0.83 to 0.75 3. May 23, 2014: Removed Transformation Servos upgrade Changed Hellion/Hellbat transform requirement to Armory Brood Lord gains the Frenzied ability 4. July 25, 2014 Splash radius is now 1.75. There are no longer 50% or 25% damage zones. Changed to prioritize Thor AA weapon over the AG weapon Time Warp duration decreased from 30 to 10 seconds 4 Balance patches in a year. A YEAR! 11 changes. 7 of them are variable changes which takes 5 minutes of development each. The remaining 4 will require some basic method changes and hardly looks like 100 lines of code. Blizzard balance implementation speed is 0.06 lines of code per hour. They will always say that they are listening to us. But they never will. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On June 08 2015 14:08 Ramiz1989 wrote: Now when you know that Starbow has a ranked ladder, can you tell me why this isn't the case then? You have to realize that people have different taste, and that some just don't like Starbow. "Vastly superior game design wise" doesn't mean much. A ton of people are still whining how BW is superior, yet they are still playing SC2 and just keep whining... . I'm playing Brood War because I think that it's superior, so if any of you whining kids want to get off your asses and practice what you preach, I'll gladly welcome more players in my game. | ||
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Geiko
France1936 Posts
When I read TL it feels like I'm the only one who enjoys playing lotv  | ||
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ETisME
12265 Posts
On June 09 2015 01:29 sh1RoKen wrote: Am I the only one who does't expect blizzard to stop acting like huge heartless corporate machine? I am following SC2 scene from WoL beta, I am playing WoW from BC and Diablo 3 from beta and I have never seen them listening to the community. There are literally zero chance that they will just "We really like DH concept introduced by the community and we decided to bring it into the game." They are not Valve or Riot who cares about their players. It took them a year to nerf terrans in WoL. Retro paladins were 1-shooting everyone for 6 month at the start of Lich King. Just imagine that zealot have 500 hp, 100 damage and costs 50 minerals. They were not fixing this for 6 month. 5 BM hunters were unbeatable top-1 composition in 5v5 for 4 month at the start of the Pandas. Lets see what they did for HotS in 2014: 1. February 3, 2014: Time Warp cost increased from 75 to 100 Ghosts start with the energy upgrade built in 2. March 1, 2014: Mothership Core vision decreased from 14 to 9 Widow Mine splash damage increased from 40 to 40 +40 shields Hydralisk attack delay decreased from 0.83 to 0.75 3. May 23, 2014: Removed Transformation Servos upgrade Changed Hellion/Hellbat transform requirement to Armory Brood Lord gains the Frenzied ability 4. July 25, 2014 Splash radius is now 1.75. There are no longer 50% or 25% damage zones. Changed to prioritize Thor AA weapon over the AG weapon Time Warp duration decreased from 30 to 10 seconds 4 Balance patches in a year. A YEAR! 11 changes. 7 of them are variable changes which takes 5 minutes of development each. The remaining 4 will require some basic method changes and hardly looks like 100 lines of code. Blizzard balance implementation speed is 0.06 lines of code per hour. They will always say that they are listening to us. But they never will. Pretty sure getting rid of auction house in diablo 3 was mega big. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16378 Posts
On June 09 2015 01:29 sh1RoKen wrote: They will always say that they are listening to us. But they never will. remember that awesome SC1:Brood War public beta guys? man those were the days!  if u follow Rob Pardo's comments carefully... Pardo wanted Blizzard listening to the community less. Specifically, only waiting on the final polishing stages before bringing in the community. Pardo is gone and now we've got the earliest access to a RTS beta ever. if anything , when it comes to RTS games, Blizz is listening more.. and more EARLY in development than ever before. i hazard to guess that if Pardo were still at the helm the LotV beta test would not even be happening. | ||
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captainwaffles
United States1050 Posts
On June 08 2015 20:37 tokinho wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 08 2015 10:48 captainwaffles wrote: Brief background- been playing starcraft competitively since 2008 when I discovered the pro scene through youtube vods (klazart, diggity, moletrap, cholera etc) played sc2 since WoL beta and have been high masters since masters was a thing. First- More drastic changes need to be tested especially for a prolonged beta. Like most everyone else I was estatic about the new economy changes they unveiled at blizzcon, 12 workers to skip the boring first 3 mins of a game? Bases that mined out faster? Awesome! But upon further digging the econ changes were pretty hollow, its just less resources per base so you mine out faster. the "3 base cap" is still a thing. Teamliquid came forth with a possible solution to this with Double Harvest, a much more broodwar type economy. Simply put you're not punished for not expanding but you're rewarded for expanding, effectively getting rid of the 3 base cap while still allowing defensive play to still exist in the game. From blizzards response to the Double Harvest it seems like they don't really understand it and we haven't heard anything about it since... which brings me to point two- Secondly- In addition to more radical changes being tested we really need to strengthen the communication between the developers and the community, Psione- you're awesome mate but ultimately you're a middle man relaying messages. Blizzard please just talk to us and let us know whats going on as to why you're doing or not doing things. For example skins, design decisions etc. which brings me to my third point... Thirdly- The units for Lotv feel pretty underwhelming on the whole. With the exception in my eyes being the lurker and Disruptor. The cyclone actually annoys me because its basically just letting Terran players micro a unit like protoss micro Phoenix (just moving around and clicking while the unit attacks while moving. Mech didn't need another strong ground to ground unit, it really didn't. So the cyclone when first released was the new "micro goliath" well now it doesn't shoot up until fusion core so its just a ground phoenix... Honestly, you gave us back the lurker just give us back the goliath at this point. The Liberator is also a funky unit that doesn't sit well with me. Its a sky tank that its also a valkyrie for some reason. If blizzard wants to make a new version of starcraft they should make new units with new concepts not half assed rehashes which just about all of the new units are, even the disruptor. We want our units to have more microbility this does not mean every unit needs abilities, this means units need to be more responsive like the Depth of micro video Lalush made some time ago suggests. I'm on the fence about the Ravager it was cool until they overnerfed it, it was too strong for sure but now its too weak... like a middle ground can't be that difficult to find. Overall I'm not really saying anything that hasn't been said before by people way more popular with a lot more pull in the scene, people like catz and incontrol for example. To me, if blizzard is hell bent on controlling the scene and not letting the community run the game they really need to step up their game and be more open about wtf is going on in their offices, with broodwar making a comeback in Korea and Starbow being released Its getting to the point where vanilla sc2 is not that appealing anymore, seriously the one thing it has on starbow, broodwar, and sc2broodwar is easy and effective match making. I've been writing this over the course of several hours while I'm at work so let me just reiterate the main point of my post because reading this back to myself its kind of jumbled and all over the place: I'm frustrated and disappointed with the direction Lotv is taking and Blizzards lack of communication. The new units feel weird and out of place especially the Terran units.The new economy doesn't solve the core issue of the current hots economy it just puts a timer on turtles which is a good thing but more could be done, just test the damn double harvest already. I've been playing starbow and Iccup recently and been having more fun with those than either hots or lotv and if things continue this way I don't see myself playing lotv past the campaign. I'm making this post to convey what I know a lot of people in the community are feeling and to hopefully get blizzards attention. Lol, your post is so far away from everything that is going on its just outright ridiculous and borderline reportable. You claimed the economic system sucks and the double harvest mod is better and blizzard ignored it. Blizzard looked at the double harvest mod. Its a huge nerf to zerg. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/484962-double-harvesting-replay-analysis). That's why its dumb. I really just don't get your opinion of how its better in any way. Secondly, Blizzard is very active on the blizzard forums. Another point where its just a lie they don't listen to the community. You can talk to several people of the balance team. Psione is not the only member of the balance team, and they have very open communication with the pro players. They have a chat channel that they communicate with pro players to get their opinions. There is a recent vod for the late game where this was discussed. Go watch their last 2 or 3 vods. if you don't believe me. It is true blizzard puts much more emphasis on communication with people who make a living playing the game rather than more amateur players. Thirdly, the focus of Legacy of the void has been always on more active armies and more specialization than has been previously available. Terran has a hard time getting into and committing to different tech paths. LOTV now has 2 major tech paths with 3 different transitions. Before, there was almost no transition its either bio and try to end it, or mech into skyterran. Cyclones fulfill a different role than goliaths. The ravagers make it so zerg does have a counter to high sentry counts, but are not useful in large numbers. They are still used as a counter to sentries and static defense. They are still really good units. Just the early game pushes with zerg were nerfed with the idea that playing vs zerg you can expand more safely, which is more consistent with the trend of the game. More specialization, more engagements, higher economy, more tech options. I like the new units. You say it feels wierd, but it actually feels much more about being mobile and is much more fast paced to me. The goliath reduces specialization which again is not the current focus of the game, and the liberator keeps muta numbers lower with the ability to control ultras with bio. The economic system in legacy of the void is better than the double harvest mod. I like the direction the game is going, other than warpgate recall, warpgate recall cycle so protoss barely is on the map still seems a bit retarded. Particularly, I think the lotv beta is funner than starbow. The most baffling thing to me is, I don't really see why you feel the need to make this post here, where its unlikely to get as much attention from blizzard as it would on the forums where a direct reply from blizzard would be possible. I can hardly disagree more with this reasoning. Good point, I just posted it to the LotV beta forums as well. I say the units feel weird because they (terran units) honestly do not feel like starcraft units. The liberator reminds me of the prism tank from CnC RA 2 or the beam cannon from CnC TW 3. Starcraft isn't about having every unit have special abilities its about controlling large armies well and managing large (barring cheese of course) economies. Its not about making 4 cyclones and clicking them away from units while they destroy shit...its just not fun. You say they're active on their own forums and on the first page of the LotV forum i see no blue posts save for the stickies of news announcements... I've been watching the Late Game and Remax and I've heard them say psione is taking feedback but thats not enough, hes a community manager. We want an open line of communication straight to the developers! Considering other games have this I don't think its too much to ask really. I mean Starcraft (broodwar) blew up into the biggest esport and then blizzard comes around with sc2 trying to control the scene and for a long while killing off starcraft in korea. If they want this big daddy position they need to accept responsibility for it and listen to the community that pours their souls into the game. Having psione collect feedback that they ultimately ignore is not enough. At this point I'd rather they just give up on WCS and let the community decide which version of starcraft we want to play whether it be broodwar or starbow or sc2bw or whatever. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On June 08 2015 12:02 deth wrote: Agreed with every single point you made. Disappointed with (yet again) the lack of communication and collaboration with the community from blizzard, the unit design and slow patches. It's now obvious why Blizzard refuse to communicate. They just allocate more resources for other games, and people may actually be right that SC2 at the moment has few developers. Money hungry Blizzard. It was obvious the moment they said SC2 would be done into three parts with no justification at all. They may say it's because of "campaign" but it's just cover-up for more money. Pro tip: don't buy more games from Blizzard, and they'll understand the message which is to listen to community. | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On June 08 2015 23:33 Jenia6109 wrote: Agree with this so much! People think that a company must do something for them for nothing. Actually they could do many multiplayer updates but they need money for it. Legacy of the Void is all about campaign and they sell a campaign, not multiplayer. Multiplayer is a bonus for fans. They need to make some system to sell multiplayer like they do with Hearthstone and HotS and then multiplayer will grow to new levels. But now it's just "we make long beta because we didn't make new units in time, so while we finish our job you can test the game". One option would be to put the game into a "early access" status where people are paying for participation in a beta or alpha build. This would accomplish a goal of more direct communication and feedback with the community and more testing. Also maybe they would initially pull in more money then they had imagined and could put more effort into the game. I think this approach has had much success as it is very prevalent on steam games at the moment. How much of the community would pay right now for a chance to give feedback and test the game as it is? I believe (especially this community that really wants a say in how the game shapes) tons of people would participate, myself included. I would pay full price for access to this AAA title and because it is blizzard and I know they will make a damn good game no matter what. The WORST blizzard game i have played was still a damn good game... maybe lost vikings (and I really enjoyed that). As far as making money on games goes, Blizzard has tested 2 free to play options and have clearly made it work in a big way (heroes + hearthstone). While some of the mechanics that make it free to play work and bring in money (expansions in game play such as new charters and cards) may not be viable in sc2 (although you can always add new units for money if you don't mind adjusting balance over time. I would pay for this)... SKINS as per the csgo model... or even the heroes model (not as good as csgo imo) could be applied to sc2 and I PROMISE they would expand their earnings. Clearly aesthetic additions to games in all genres pull in money, meaning people will pay for them and enjoy them. Especially while you have simple to legendary skins that are rare and make someones account unique and special to them. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
On June 09 2015 02:08 Geiko wrote: On the other hand, I'd like to point out that adepts are awesome and 12 worker start as well. When I read TL it feels like I'm the only one who enjoys playing lotv It felt to me that everyone except to loved HOTS when it came out because the new units created new strategies. And then the novelty wore off and everyone realized the base game was worse. Widow Mines were inferior to Siege Tanks, Swarm Hosts were awful, Photon Overcharge was skilless and boring ect... And for LOTV, I think the proof is in the pudding. A few months after the HOTS beta came out pretty much every player stream was HOTS. Most of the player streams are still HOTS now though, after the initial release excitement of the LOTV beta. That says something. But I'll agree that Adepts are really interesting, but will they remain that way or will the novelty wear off? And will they even remain balanced the way they are? | ||
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tokinho
United States785 Posts
On June 09 2015 02:19 captainwaffles wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 08 2015 20:37 tokinho wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 08 2015 10:48 captainwaffles wrote: Brief background- been playing starcraft competitively since 2008 when I discovered the pro scene through youtube vods (klazart, diggity, moletrap, cholera etc) played sc2 since WoL beta and have been high masters since masters was a thing. First- More drastic changes need to be tested especially for a prolonged beta. Like most everyone else I was estatic about the new economy changes they unveiled at blizzcon, 12 workers to skip the boring first 3 mins of a game? Bases that mined out faster? Awesome! But upon further digging the econ changes were pretty hollow, its just less resources per base so you mine out faster. the "3 base cap" is still a thing. Teamliquid came forth with a possible solution to this with Double Harvest, a much more broodwar type economy. Simply put you're not punished for not expanding but you're rewarded for expanding, effectively getting rid of the 3 base cap while still allowing defensive play to still exist in the game. From blizzards response to the Double Harvest it seems like they don't really understand it and we haven't heard anything about it since... which brings me to point two- Secondly- In addition to more radical changes being tested we really need to strengthen the communication between the developers and the community, Psione- you're awesome mate but ultimately you're a middle man relaying messages. Blizzard please just talk to us and let us know whats going on as to why you're doing or not doing things. For example skins, design decisions etc. which brings me to my third point... Thirdly- The units for Lotv feel pretty underwhelming on the whole. With the exception in my eyes being the lurker and Disruptor. The cyclone actually annoys me because its basically just letting Terran players micro a unit like protoss micro Phoenix (just moving around and clicking while the unit attacks while moving. Mech didn't need another strong ground to ground unit, it really didn't. So the cyclone when first released was the new "micro goliath" well now it doesn't shoot up until fusion core so its just a ground phoenix... Honestly, you gave us back the lurker just give us back the goliath at this point. The Liberator is also a funky unit that doesn't sit well with me. Its a sky tank that its also a valkyrie for some reason. If blizzard wants to make a new version of starcraft they should make new units with new concepts not half assed rehashes which just about all of the new units are, even the disruptor. We want our units to have more microbility this does not mean every unit needs abilities, this means units need to be more responsive like the Depth of micro video Lalush made some time ago suggests. I'm on the fence about the Ravager it was cool until they overnerfed it, it was too strong for sure but now its too weak... like a middle ground can't be that difficult to find. Overall I'm not really saying anything that hasn't been said before by people way more popular with a lot more pull in the scene, people like catz and incontrol for example. To me, if blizzard is hell bent on controlling the scene and not letting the community run the game they really need to step up their game and be more open about wtf is going on in their offices, with broodwar making a comeback in Korea and Starbow being released Its getting to the point where vanilla sc2 is not that appealing anymore, seriously the one thing it has on starbow, broodwar, and sc2broodwar is easy and effective match making. I've been writing this over the course of several hours while I'm at work so let me just reiterate the main point of my post because reading this back to myself its kind of jumbled and all over the place: I'm frustrated and disappointed with the direction Lotv is taking and Blizzards lack of communication. The new units feel weird and out of place especially the Terran units.The new economy doesn't solve the core issue of the current hots economy it just puts a timer on turtles which is a good thing but more could be done, just test the damn double harvest already. I've been playing starbow and Iccup recently and been having more fun with those than either hots or lotv and if things continue this way I don't see myself playing lotv past the campaign. I'm making this post to convey what I know a lot of people in the community are feeling and to hopefully get blizzards attention. Lol, your post is so far away from everything that is going on its just outright ridiculous and borderline reportable. You claimed the economic system sucks and the double harvest mod is better and blizzard ignored it. Blizzard looked at the double harvest mod. Its a huge nerf to zerg. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/484962-double-harvesting-replay-analysis). That's why its dumb. I really just don't get your opinion of how its better in any way. Secondly, Blizzard is very active on the blizzard forums. Another point where its just a lie they don't listen to the community. You can talk to several people of the balance team. Psione is not the only member of the balance team, and they have very open communication with the pro players. They have a chat channel that they communicate with pro players to get their opinions. There is a recent vod for the late game where this was discussed. Go watch their last 2 or 3 vods. if you don't believe me. It is true blizzard puts much more emphasis on communication with people who make a living playing the game rather than more amateur players. Thirdly, the focus of Legacy of the void has been always on more active armies and more specialization than has been previously available. Terran has a hard time getting into and committing to different tech paths. LOTV now has 2 major tech paths with 3 different transitions. Before, there was almost no transition its either bio and try to end it, or mech into skyterran. Cyclones fulfill a different role than goliaths. The ravagers make it so zerg does have a counter to high sentry counts, but are not useful in large numbers. They are still used as a counter to sentries and static defense. They are still really good units. Just the early game pushes with zerg were nerfed with the idea that playing vs zerg you can expand more safely, which is more consistent with the trend of the game. More specialization, more engagements, higher economy, more tech options. I like the new units. You say it feels wierd, but it actually feels much more about being mobile and is much more fast paced to me. The goliath reduces specialization which again is not the current focus of the game, and the liberator keeps muta numbers lower with the ability to control ultras with bio. The economic system in legacy of the void is better than the double harvest mod. I like the direction the game is going, other than warpgate recall, warpgate recall cycle so protoss barely is on the map still seems a bit retarded. Particularly, I think the lotv beta is funner than starbow. The most baffling thing to me is, I don't really see why you feel the need to make this post here, where its unlikely to get as much attention from blizzard as it would on the forums where a direct reply from blizzard would be possible. I can hardly disagree more with this reasoning. Good point, I just posted it to the LotV beta forums as well. I say the units feel weird because they (terran units) honestly do not feel like starcraft units. The liberator reminds me of the prism tank from CnC RA 2 or the beam cannon from CnC TW 3. Starcraft isn't about having every unit have special abilities its about controlling large armies well and managing large (barring cheese of course) economies. Its not about making 4 cyclones and clicking them away from units while they destroy shit...its just not fun. You say they're active on their own forums and on the first page of the LotV forum i see no blue posts save for the stickies of news announcements... I've been watching the Late Game and Remax and I've heard them say psione is taking feedback but thats not enough, hes a community manager. We want an open line of communication straight to the developers! Considering other games have this I don't think its too much to ask really. I mean Starcraft (broodwar) blew up into the biggest esport and then blizzard comes around with sc2 trying to control the scene and for a long while killing off starcraft in korea. If they want this big daddy position they need to accept responsibility for it and listen to the community that pours their souls into the game. Having psione collect feedback that they ultimately ignore is not enough. At this point I'd rather they just give up on WCS and let the community decide which version of starcraft we want to play whether it be broodwar or starbow or sc2bw or whatever. "Starcraft isn't about having every unit have special abilities its about controlling large armies well and managing large (barring cheese of course) economies." , lol did you even play brood war, never heard of plaguuuuuuuuu or irradiate, storm. brood war you could only put 12 units to a hotkey. Starcraft has always been about controlling armies, being active, and creative. (Hence the name RTS.) It wasn't until the turtle crap from hots that it the game became a lot more macro based and less about individual units. As far as saying there isn't an open line between players and developers. THE OPEN LINE TO THE DEVELOPERS IS THE BATTLENET FORUMS. Also, There is a direct open line between the pro players and the developers stop saying there isn't. That is just a lie. The fact you mentioned psione, and not Zoevia simply means you have no clue about how the forums work. You say- "Having psione collect feedback that they ultimately ignore is not enough." As far as blizzard not looking for community feedback. What?!! They don't ignore feedback they often ask for it. They regularly adjust based off of it. Let me cite some examples. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/17779094/call-to-action-january-29-balance-testing-1-29-2015 http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/18184815/call-to-action-march-5-balance-testing-3-5-2015 http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/18483058/call-to-action-march-26-balance-testing-3-26-2015 The liberator was included for diversity in play. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/19451932/introducing-the-liberator-5-27-2015 What is the purpose of the beta if not for feedback...lol? Saying that blizzard never reads or replies to posts. Here let me help you. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/search?f=post&a=Zoevia&sort=time Hes replying every single business day to posts. It is painfully obvious you do not know how to use the forums on battlenet. And to say that blizzard killed starcraft 2. Lol. They listened to people like you who just want a clash between big armies and nothing happens until 12 to 20 minutes in a game. Its boring to watch, its boring to play. LOTV is a lot funner than starbow, brood war, and sc2bw. See this is the thing, nearly everything you want I hate. You want double economy to break zerg? You want more deathball play? You don't like active units and abilities because its less a-moving. Go play brood war if you want to play brood war. (You're going to lose a lot to players that use the abilities). You keep complaining that you cannot sit for 20 minutes in a game then a-move your mech army and that you have abilities. That feels not like starcraft because abilities are new according to you. I think the reason sc2 dies, is because you want something that is not part of RTS, and you do not look at forums and listen to what blizzard has to say. I enjoy legacy of the void and i enjoy the diversity and strategies that are being introduced to the game. I can see how a better player has a higher tendency to win. I love cyclone micro. Sorry you don't enjoy microing the cyclones. I think its a lot funner than goliaths were. Starcraft was never designed that way to deathball until hots, sorry man. All these claims that blizzard isn't listening to you. Maybe because you do not like what the majority of us do and you have ignored the forums. | ||
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SinO[Ob]
France897 Posts
On June 09 2015 01:29 sh1RoKen wrote: Am I the only one who does't expect blizzard to stop acting like huge heartless corporate machine? I am following SC2 scene from WoL beta, I am playing WoW from BC and Diablo 3 from beta and I have never seen them listening to the community. There are literally zero chance that they will just "We really like DH concept introduced by the community and we decided to bring it into the game." They are not Valve or Riot who cares about their players. It took them a year to nerf terrans in WoL. Retro paladins were 1-shooting everyone for 6 month at the start of Lich King. Just imagine that zealot have 500 hp, 100 damage and costs 50 minerals. They were not fixing this for 6 month. 5 BM hunters were unbeatable top-1 composition in 5v5 for 4 month at the start of the Pandas. Lets see what they did for HotS in 2014: 1. February 3, 2014: Time Warp cost increased from 75 to 100 Ghosts start with the energy upgrade built in 2. March 1, 2014: Mothership Core vision decreased from 14 to 9 Widow Mine splash damage increased from 40 to 40 +40 shields Hydralisk attack delay decreased from 0.83 to 0.75 3. May 23, 2014: Removed Transformation Servos upgrade Changed Hellion/Hellbat transform requirement to Armory Brood Lord gains the Frenzied ability 4. July 25, 2014 Splash radius is now 1.75. There are no longer 50% or 25% damage zones. Changed to prioritize Thor AA weapon over the AG weapon Time Warp duration decreased from 30 to 10 seconds 4 Balance patches in a year. A YEAR! 11 changes. 7 of them are variable changes which takes 5 minutes of development each. The remaining 4 will require some basic method changes and hardly looks like 100 lines of code. Blizzard balance implementation speed is 0.06 lines of code per hour. They will always say that they are listening to us. But they never will. The problem isn't programming new things. Because as you say it wont take long for them to bring those changes into the game. The problem is, what are those changes that you will bring? Just think realisticly for a second. Game designing is not randomly brought changes to please the patches quota. Especially, in a strategy game with so much depth. A change need to be good in so much way. It takes long time to think and try it. Another point thats bug me out. Stop comparing Riot to Blizzard or Valve. Blizzard games: SC2 / Heartstone / Diablo / WoW and Overwatch soon to come. Valve games: CS / Dota 2 / Dont talk about TF2 they just let it die soffocating in Skins and FFA focus. They totally let the Esport side of this game. Which his far more fun to watch and play than any current FPS. Yea, ANY current FPS. And valve is of course so much more game and especially Steam <3. But lets focus on which game are played today. Riot: League of legends. How can you compare a company who has one game to support and the others that have platforms and so much huge games. And in different genres. Let Riot, the one trick componey, far from Blizzard and Valve plz. (I'm proud of this jk.) | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On June 09 2015 03:27 tokinho wrote: "Starcraft isn't about having every unit have special abilities its about controlling large armies well and managing large (barring cheese of course) economies." , lol did you even play brood war, never heard of plaguuuuuuuuu or irradiate, storm. brood war you could only put 12 units to a hotkey. Starcraft has always been about controlling armies, being active, and creative. (Hence the name RTS.) It wasn't until the turtle crap from hots that it the game became a lot more macro based and less about individual units. As far as saying there isn't an open line between players and developers. THE OPEN LINE TO THE DEVELOPERS IS THE BATTLENET FORUMS. Also, There is a direct open line between the pro players and the developers stop saying there isn't. That is just a lie. The fact you mentioned psione, and not Zoevia simply means you have no clue about how the forums work. You say- "Having psione collect feedback that they ultimately ignore is not enough." As far as blizzard not looking for community feedback. What?!! They don't ignore feedback they often ask for it. They regularly adjust based off of it. Let me cite some examples. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/17779094/call-to-action-january-29-balance-testing-1-29-2015 http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/18184815/call-to-action-march-5-balance-testing-3-5-2015 http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/18483058/call-to-action-march-26-balance-testing-3-26-2015 The liberator was included for diversity in play. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/19451932/introducing-the-liberator-5-27-2015 What is the purpose of the beta if not for feedback...lol? Saying that blizzard never reads or replies to posts. Here let me help you. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/search?f=post&a=Zoevia&sort=time Hes replying every single business day to posts. It is painfully obvious you do not know how to use the forums on battlenet. And to say that blizzard killed starcraft 2. Lol. They listened to people like you who just want a clash between big armies and nothing happens until 12 to 20 minutes in a game. Its boring to watch, its boring to play. LOTV is a lot funner than starbow, brood war, and sc2bw. See this is the thing, nearly everything you want I hate. You want double economy to break zerg? You want more deathball play? You don't like active units and abilities because its less a-moving. Go play brood war if you want to play brood war. (You're going to lose a lot to players that use the abilities). You keep complaining that you cannot sit for 20 minutes in a game then a-move your mech army and that you have abilities. That feels not like starcraft because abilities are new according to you. I think the reason sc2 dies, is because you want something that is not part of RTS, and you do not look at forums and listen to what blizzard has to say. I enjoy legacy of the void and i enjoy the diversity and strategies that are being introduced to the game. I can see how a better player has a higher tendency to win. I love cyclone micro. Sorry you don't enjoy microing the cyclones. I think its a lot funner than goliaths were. Starcraft was never designed that way to deathball until hots, sorry man. All these claims that blizzard isn't listening to you. Maybe because you do not like what the majority of us do and you have ignored the forums. I think you are accusing Waffle of some of the wrong things. His reference to "not controlling large armies" is a reference to large = death ball armies. I think you two agree that death balls aren't good for the game. Even if there are open lines of communication with pros, many of the pros still complain about why the changes they ask for haven't been implemented in the game. While I don't have the threads to site, many of the times I have seen pros post on team liquid they are asking for changes I never see implemented. Outside of balance, there is also SO much they could be doing for sc2 that they are already doing for other games (hearth and heroes). For example skins, like a csgo model as I have already mentioned. It's interesting, I was just watching base-trade and Rifkin was saying how he's not a huge csgo fan or player, but as he has started to play it with subs one thing he really enjoys is having give-aways with skins. People really dig that shit! I know for a fact people hang out in streams to win exclusive stuff. While this isn't a gameplay issue, it feeds the community and gets people to watch and have fun with the game. I million years ago there was a tl poll about skins, while the results weren't big for skins, idk why bliz hasn't even tried. | ||
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