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Played with this economic model for three games with a friend of similar skill (both diamond). While I haven't played much, overall I liked it. Our games were generally pretty exciting, and rewarded good multitasking quite a bit. We were wondering, how exactly have mules been worked into this system? Do they mine just as much as they did before? And is it possible to stack mules onto mineral patches with scvs or other mules already mining without any detrimental effect, like in HotS, or is it any different.
As for observations, I do have one. Not sure if this has been mentioned before (haven't been following the discussion very closely), but one positive change was that having workers more spread out between bases, meant that certain forms of economic damage that would be massive in HotS no longer mattered quite as much. For example, after a successful storm drop, I noticed that I wasn't killing anywhere near as many workers as I would in HotS. There were only 8 on the mineral line, and at this point we were both on about 4-5 bases. So in HotS, I could have potentially cut his economy by an entire third just with that one move, but under DH10 though still beneficial for me, the damage wasn't as devastating.
I think this is actually quite a good thing. One complaint about SC2 is that often games can end way too quickly. Imagine the above scenario, but in addition to that I move in with my army to wipe out another base along with its workers. So long as I don't lose too many units doing this, and have a secure income of my own, I've just done potentially game ending damage, all in the span of maybe 10 seconds. These sorts of scenarios are incredibly frustrating for lower level players to deal with, they lack the multitasking and attention required to prevent these really quick deaths. However, we don't sacrifice the requirement for skill in SC2. It takes excellent strategy, macro, and multitasking to be the best in this economy. So if my assessment is correct, with some sort of double harvesting economy, we have found one way to make the game less frustrating for new players without sacrificing how much skill can be displayed.
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Canada13392 Posts
On April 24 2015 09:54 Biedrik wrote:
Played with this economic model for three games with a friend of similar skill (both diamond). While I haven't played much, overall I liked it. Our games were generally pretty exciting, and rewarded good multitasking quite a bit. We were wondering, how exactly have mules been worked into this system? Do they mine just as much as they did before? And is it possible to stack mules onto mineral patches with scvs or other mules already mining without any detrimental effect, like in HotS, or is it any different.
As for observations, I do have one. Not sure if this has been mentioned before (haven't been following the discussion very closely), but one positive change was that having workers more spread out between bases, meant that certain forms of economic damage that would be massive in HotS no longer mattered quite as much. For example, after a successful storm drop, I noticed that I wasn't killing anywhere near as many workers as I would in HotS. There were only 8 on the mineral line, and at this point we were both on about 4-5 bases. So in HotS, I could have potentially cut his economy by an entire third just with that one move, but under DH10 though still beneficial for me, the damage wasn't as devastating.
I think this is actually quite a good thing. One complaint about SC2 is that often games can end way too quickly. Imagine the above scenario, but in addition to that I move in with my army to wipe out another base along with its workers. So long as I don't lose too many units doing this, and have a secure income of my own, I've just done potentially game ending damage, all in the span of maybe 10 seconds. These sorts of scenarios are incredibly frustrating for lower level players to deal with, they lack the multitasking and attention required to prevent these really quick deaths. However, we don't sacrifice the requirement for skill in SC2. It takes excellent strategy, macro, and multitasking to be the best in this economy. So if my assessment is correct, with some sort of double harvesting economy, we have found one way to make the game less frustrating for new players without sacrificing how much skill can be displayed.
Mules didn't change 
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On April 24 2015 09:54 Biedrik wrote:
As for observations, I do have one. Not sure if this has been mentioned before (haven't been following the discussion very closely), but one positive change was that having workers more spread out between bases, meant that certain forms of economic damage that would be massive in HotS no longer mattered quite as much. For example, after a successful storm drop, I noticed that I wasn't killing anywhere near as many workers as I would in HotS. There were only 8 on the mineral line, and at this point we were both on about 4-5 bases. So in HotS, I could have potentially cut his economy by an entire third just with that one move, but under DH10 though still beneficial for me, the damage wasn't as devastating.
That's interesting, thank you for pointing it out!
Workers in DH model tend to spend more time at the mineral patches and we were worried that harassment, especially in the form of AoE, would do more, not less damage.
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On April 24 2015 07:31 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2015 07:07 SoulTendo wrote:On April 24 2015 06:16 Barrin wrote:On April 24 2015 05:43 SoulTendo wrote:
I tried to create games with the mod but didn't succeed so far do I need to download anything? Did you follow the instructions in this or this post? Thank you but I saw that my problem is that I don't have an Create with mod button on the maps i want to play. So I guess I cant use any mod. Hmm. Which maps are you trying to play?
I tried Echo, Coda, Overgrowt
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On April 24 2015 05:26 Barrin wrote:
To reiterate, vultures don't exist in SC2.
Hellions move at 4.25 cells per game second. That's 4.25*1.38= 5.865 cells per real second.
Vultures move @ 5.5 in SC2BW, you said. That's 5.5*1.38= 7.59 in real seconds. In BW, they move at about 5.075 in real seconds.
Vultures in SC2BW move ~50% faster than they do in BW.
Hellions in SC2 move ~15.6% faster than vultures in BW.
So I haven't spent a lot of time studying how speed should be translated/compared from BW to Sc2. However, both Sc2BW and Starbow have spent a lot of ressources on this, and came to the conclusion that the speed isn't slower in BW.
I don't know exactly what "cells" implicates, but it might not be a good measure of speed.
To reiterate, vultures don't exist in SC2.
In Sc2BW/Starbow.
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When all units are faster, then the defense is also faster in countermaneuvering. I don't see a big problem with the units in general being faster than BW units. All that matters is that it somehwo works out with SC2 units.
Though this might be hard to make work. Not because all of the units are too fast, but because specific units have a very easy time punishing you when you spread out.
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On April 24 2015 22:03 Big J wrote:
When all units are faster, then the defense is also faster in countermaneuvering. I don't see a big problem with the units in general being faster than BW units. All that matters is that it somehwo works out with SC2 units.
Though this might be hard to make work. Not because all of the units are too fast, but because specific units have a very easy time punishing you when you spread out.
It changes the reaction-speed though. If defensive units are slower, it takes longer for them to get from one base to another --> Offensive units can do more damage.
I think, however, its important to note that in a BW econ, the race on few bases isn't supposed to be in the defensive. So when one says that he has an easy time defending on 2-3 bases, that's actually intended.
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On April 24 2015 22:24 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2015 22:03 Big J wrote:
When all units are faster, then the defense is also faster in countermaneuvering. I don't see a big problem with the units in general being faster than BW units. All that matters is that it somehwo works out with SC2 units.
Though this might be hard to make work. Not because all of the units are too fast, but because specific units have a very easy time punishing you when you spread out. It changes the reaction-speed though. If defensive units are slower, it takes longer for them to get from one base to another --> Offensive units can do more damage.I think, however, its important to note that in a BW econ, the race on few bases isn't supposed to be in the defensive. So when one says that he has an easy time defending on 2-3 bases, that's actually intended.
of course, but that's all just theorizing about apples and oranges. The games are different to begin with. There is no use balancing for same reaction times when the units and strategies differ anyways.
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Maps are similar in size in both SC2 and BW, btw.
Okay, I just never heard anyone who had looked into the speed difference coming to the conclusion that the speed was faster, but your arguments are convincing so I stand corrected. FYI, is it your opinion that the fact that BW is more zoomed in has something to do with the game feeling faster?
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Canada13392 Posts
On April 25 2015 01:02 Hider wrote:Okay, I just never heard anyone who had looked into the speed difference coming to the conclusion that the speed was faster, but your arguments are convincing so I stand corrected. FYI, is it your opinion that the fact that BW is more zoomed in has something to do with the game feeling faster?
I think discussions of the unit speeds etc are interesting but out of scope for what we are trying to do.
I'm glad everyone likes the whole DH thing, but for us its more about proof of concept.
That you can make a subtle change and see changes apply to the game without having to change hard mineral counts.
The core of the idea is: Pairing workers in HotS and SC2 in general right now causes some problems.
Lets try to unlock this pair by offering diminishing rewards at 9 workers and seeing how the game plays out and the small improvements that encouraging expansions can bring.
Sure there will be rebalancing but there will always be rebalancing in any eco change. We're just trying to find something that is the same but different.
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Canada13392 Posts
On April 25 2015 02:33 woopr wrote:
is there a post that explains why dh8 isn't being considered as much?
i know it ramps up similarly to hots in the first 8 workers then have a max mining rate that is lower, but is that bad? having lower max income per base would keep the game from being so easy to max out quickly from 3 bases
The mineral curve is really low compared to HotS and we don't want to mess with the gas ratios that much. Since we arent playing with gas incomes etc, the goal of the mod is to show the impact of diminishing returns on the 9th worker onwards and how expanding more rewards players on equal counts.
DH10 was too extreme with the mineral curve and lets you max out quickly, and DH8 is too extreme in the other direction with too shallow a curve meaning minerals income is much lower than gas income. Again, we don't want to try and play with the mineral:gas ratio if we can help it. The closest we can come to the mineral gas ratio of hots remaining without blowing up early game through mineral income is DH9 the way i've gotten it to work right now. Which is really more of a triple harvest but its already been branded "DH"
DH9 is what we are trying now to see how if it more accurately shows the "expand fore more money" bit without creating "you can mass armies on low worker counts ans bases".
Also DH9 does have a slower max out rate just not as pronounced as DH since again we are concerned with the mineral:gas ratios
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On April 24 2015 15:20 SoulTendo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2015 07:31 Barrin wrote:On April 24 2015 07:07 SoulTendo wrote:On April 24 2015 06:16 Barrin wrote:On April 24 2015 05:43 SoulTendo wrote:
I tried to create games with the mod but didn't succeed so far do I need to download anything? Did you follow the instructions in this or this post? Thank you but I saw that my problem is that I don't have an Create with mod button on the maps i want to play. So I guess I cant use any mod. Hmm. Which maps are you trying to play? I tried Echo, Coda, Overgrowt
I thought I was having that same issue but then I realized I was finding the maps in the list of custom games. On the left there's something you click to let you search for just maps, and then you'll see the play with mod option, search for the mod etc.
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On April 25 2015 03:08 robopork wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2015 15:20 SoulTendo wrote:On April 24 2015 07:31 Barrin wrote:On April 24 2015 07:07 SoulTendo wrote:On April 24 2015 06:16 Barrin wrote:On April 24 2015 05:43 SoulTendo wrote:
I tried to create games with the mod but didn't succeed so far do I need to download anything? Did you follow the instructions in this or this post? Thank you but I saw that my problem is that I don't have an Create with mod button on the maps i want to play. So I guess I cant use any mod. Hmm. Which maps are you trying to play? I tried Echo, Coda, Overgrowt I thought I was having that same issue but then I realized I was finding the maps in the list of custom games. On the left there's something you click to let you search for just maps, and then you'll see the play with mod option, search for the mod etc.
Yeah you have to click on Browse maps first, I was also freaking out at first thinking I had a bugged version of the game or something 
Besides I like the change to DH9, it should be closer to HotS in terms of "how fast you can get to XXX supply".
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Canada13392 Posts
On April 25 2015 03:20 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2015 03:08 robopork wrote:On April 24 2015 15:20 SoulTendo wrote:On April 24 2015 07:31 Barrin wrote:On April 24 2015 07:07 SoulTendo wrote:On April 24 2015 06:16 Barrin wrote:On April 24 2015 05:43 SoulTendo wrote:
I tried to create games with the mod but didn't succeed so far do I need to download anything? Did you follow the instructions in this or this post? Thank you but I saw that my problem is that I don't have an Create with mod button on the maps i want to play. So I guess I cant use any mod. Hmm. Which maps are you trying to play? I tried Echo, Coda, Overgrowt I thought I was having that same issue but then I realized I was finding the maps in the list of custom games. On the left there's something you click to let you search for just maps, and then you'll see the play with mod option, search for the mod etc. Yeah you have to click on Browse maps first, I was also freaking out at first thinking I had a bugged version of the game or something Besides I like the change to DH9, it should be closer to HotS in terms of "how fast you can get to XXX supply".
Its actually a little slower to reach that supply in dh9 compared to hots.
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EPT![[image loading]](/staff/ZeromuS/Economy/dh910hots.png)
