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Giving adept more health instead of damage is the wrong way. A harass unit needs to deal damage, not to survive. Harass units that are made to survive are stupid, because they cannot inflict a lot of balance or the game snowballs.
Shade ability is going to be incredibly frustrating to play against if you don't know where your units need to be. It's another gimmicky anti-positioning tool meant to still reward harass-play against an opponent who has outplayed you.
Cyclone range is still way too much for good interactions.
Including the lurker upgrade is a timingbased change in a game without figured out timings. Additionally their explanation is not what I have seen from players like stephano who extensively use lurkers heavily, in particular vs zerg.
Tempest ability is shit design. Removing counterplays is even shittier.
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A good take on unit balance, but as many on this site, I think they should look a bit at the economy.
I mean, there is a slight chance that with perfect unit design, you don't need to "fix the economy", but they maybe should look at the latter first, then the former.
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On April 15 2015 05:53 Spect8rCraft wrote:
None of the changes are giving me a higher opinion of the tempest. It just doesn't seem to add much flavor to Protoss other than filling an anti-massive gap in their ranks. I don't know if Protoss needs a specifically anti-massive unit.
They don't. Void Rays work pretty well already in that regard. If anything, they could bring back the passive +20% vs massive damage bonus they had in WoL and then redesign the Tempest as a more traditional siege unit.
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protoss does not need more HP (Immortal and adept buff), it needs DPS and Mobility, you can't defend shit with HP....
Blizz gotta be joking, they add for Terran and Zerg, CORE units with insane DPS and mobility and keep giving protoss gimmicks with lots of HP.
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On April 15 2015 06:46 Big J wrote:
Giving adept more health instead of damage is the wrong way. A harass unit needs to deal damage, not to survive. Harass units that are made to survive are stupid, because they cannot inflict a lot of balance or the game snowballs.
Shade ability is going to be incredibly frustrating to play against if you don't know where your units need to be. It's another gimmicky anti-positioning tool meant to still reward harass-play against an opponent who has outplayed you.
Cyclone range is still way too much for good interactions.
Including the lurker upgrade is a timingbased change in a game without figured out timings. Additionally their explanation is not what I have seen from players like stephano who extensively use lurkers heavily, in particular vs zerg.
Tempest ability is shit design. Removing counterplays is even shittier.
no it needed more health in order to be a viable core unit against bio terran, it can 2 shot marines/workers/lings already so it doesnt need more damage. after the collo nerf protoss was forced to go into chargelot comps and thats terrible vs bio mine comps (the counter to that used to be stalker + collosus), with the new adept you can safely take a 3rd while having a strong enough comp to defend against t's early game bio and you can stay outside of mine range in fights. adept + blink stalker + forcefields is gonna be a good early game comp against bio.
that being said i still think that they need to revert the warpgate changes.
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this isnt as basd a update as I had expected, but they need to start trying some extreme revolutionary changes if Legacy is to be a success
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adept dmg is terrible though, that's exactly what needs to be improved. in a big fight it has zealots to tank for it.
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Very, very disappointing. No topical point is addressed and the changes are plain underwhelming... I hope for a far better direction for the next batch of changes.
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I wish Blizzard just implement double harvest right now
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On April 15 2015 06:46 Big J wrote:
Giving adept more health instead of damage is the wrong way. A harass unit needs to deal damage, not to survive. Harass units that are made to survive are stupid, because they cannot inflict a lot of balance or the game snowballs.
Shade ability is going to be incredibly frustrating to play against if you don't know where your units need to be. It's another gimmicky anti-positioning tool meant to still reward harass-play against an opponent who has outplayed you.
Cyclone range is still way too much for good interactions.
They're very specifically trying to make it a core unit that's also good for early game harass, rather than a harassing unit that can also be haphazardly thrust into your army compositions. I agree with them that more health is a better solution than upping their damage output, but I don't think they're sufficiently differentiating the unit from Zealots with the current numbers they've chosen. If they'd kept the health the same and upped the shields to 100, you'd have a moderately tanky, low-DPS unit that gets boned by EMP. Removing the shockwave upgrade was a bad idea. If anything, it should be built into the unit as a default.
The Cyclone range doesn't have to remove good unit interactions at 6-12 and 9-15. If it were given a very slight nerf to speed, so that Stalkers could more reliably close the gap or escape its vision, this would accomplish the same task. It could really use a change to its attack from 18 to 9(2), so that it's no weaker against Zerglings than it already is, but it doesn't wipe out Zealots in quite so few hits. That would increase the shots needed against Zealots from 8 to 9, in order to give Protoss a slightly better engagement opportunity against them. Of course, like a lot of other people are saying, autocast needs to be removed from lock-on.
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On April 15 2015 05:51 404AlphaSquad wrote:
Tldr: Balance update:
-we want to force our ideas no matter how terrible they might be.
-we removed interesting unit interactions.
-we still wont try eco changes.
I'm sad to have to say I agree... Especially when it comes to the cyclone, tempest and adept changes (the shade is not needed, not cool and not easy to differentiate from blink...). Stubbornness epitomized.
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On April 15 2015 06:59 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 06:46 Big J wrote:
Giving adept more health instead of damage is the wrong way. A harass unit needs to deal damage, not to survive. Harass units that are made to survive are stupid, because they cannot inflict a lot of balance or the game snowballs.
Shade ability is going to be incredibly frustrating to play against if you don't know where your units need to be. It's another gimmicky anti-positioning tool meant to still reward harass-play against an opponent who has outplayed you.
Cyclone range is still way too much for good interactions.
Including the lurker upgrade is a timingbased change in a game without figured out timings. Additionally their explanation is not what I have seen from players like stephano who extensively use lurkers heavily, in particular vs zerg.
Tempest ability is shit design. Removing counterplays is even shittier. no it needed more health in order to be a viable core unit against bio terran, it can 2 shot marines/workers/lings already so it doesnt need more damage. after the collo nerf protoss was forced to go into chargelot comps and thats terrible vs bio mine comps (the counter to that used to be stalker + collosus), with the new adept you can safely take a 3rd while having a strong enough comp to defend against t's early game bio and you can stay outside of mine range in fights. adept + blink stalker + forcefields is gonna be a good early game comp against bio. that being said i still think that they need to revert the warpgate changes.
I'd rather them buff every single warpgate unit than make the act of warping in less vulnerable. That having been said, higher cooldown on warpgates than build times on gateways seems like a much better way of doing it than just doubling the damage on unit while they're warping in. It's kind of a clumsy "fix", as it doesn't do a whole lot to deal with the core issue of Protoss production being too good on the offense and not good enough on the defense, and instead just forces players to warp in their units slightly further away from the battle.
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The thing about these updates that always get me is when they say stuff like: "we want to see more lurkers used against roach play" or "we want protoss to be able to use this unit for early game harass"
like why not just design each unit with core abilities and let the players decide when and where they should be used?
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By having the tempest ability deny repair and healing, they're reducing counter play.
This whole expo doesn't seem really into counter play :s
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Please disable comments for threads like these. Such a shitload of people whining about stuff when they don't even have or play the beta. Noone who doesn't play the beta should be allowed to comment, as they have no idea.
Someone said the OP was painful to read. I say the posts of random whiners is painful to read.
I think what matters most is that Blizzard recieves enough feedback from the professional players, and never ever reads threads like these.
I'd also like to add that one thing I do agree with is that Blizzard shouldn't focus too much on designing units used for specific things, I prefer it when the players figure things like that out themselves.
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On April 15 2015 07:19 Aveng3r wrote:
The thing about these updates that always get me is when they say stuff like: "we want to see more lurkers used against roach play" or "we want protoss to be able to use this unit for early game harass"
like why not just design each unit with core abilities and let the players decide when and where they should be used?
This so much. Good design is often accidental, nearly by definition. I think that was phrased quite nicely in TheDwf's manifesto.
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The Cyclone range doesn't have to remove good unit interactions at 6-12 and 9-15. If it were given a very slight nerf to speed, so that Stalkers could more reliably close the gap or escape its vision, this would accomplish the same task. It could really use a change to its attack from 18 to 9(2), so that it's no weaker against Zerglings than it already is, but it doesn't wipe out Zealots in quite so few hits. That would increase the shots needed against Zealots from 8 to 9, in order to give Protoss a slightly better engagement opportunity against them. Of course, like a lot of other people are saying, autocast needs to be removed from lock-on.
Besides Blink Stalkers, what good interactions does a anything above 12 range adds to the game?
If it were given a very slight nerf to speed, so that Stalkers could more reliably close the gap or escape its vision
Slight nerf to speed barely change anything here. (going from 2.85 to 2.7 won't matter in 98% of situations).
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On April 15 2015 06:59 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 06:46 Big J wrote:
Giving adept more health instead of damage is the wrong way. A harass unit needs to deal damage, not to survive. Harass units that are made to survive are stupid, because they cannot inflict a lot of balance or the game snowballs.
Shade ability is going to be incredibly frustrating to play against if you don't know where your units need to be. It's another gimmicky anti-positioning tool meant to still reward harass-play against an opponent who has outplayed you.
Cyclone range is still way too much for good interactions.
Including the lurker upgrade is a timingbased change in a game without figured out timings. Additionally their explanation is not what I have seen from players like stephano who extensively use lurkers heavily, in particular vs zerg.
Tempest ability is shit design. Removing counterplays is even shittier. no it needed more health in order to be a viable core unit against bio terran, it can 2 shot marines/workers/lings already so it doesnt need more damage. after the collo nerf protoss was forced to go into chargelot comps and thats terrible vs bio mine comps (the counter to that used to be stalker + collosus), with the new adept you can safely take a 3rd while having a strong enough comp to defend against t's early game bio and you can stay outside of mine range in fights. adept + blink stalker + forcefields is gonna be a good early game comp against bio. that being said i still think that they need to revert the warpgate changes.
Yeah, I guess plain damage would be the wrong way to go. It was rather thinking about giving it some small splash and just tweaking the damage a bit, like a little more base damage instead of being a light hardcounter with little to hold against other units.
Anyway, my opinion about the health stands. If you thought the roach-hitpoints were retarted then behold, the adept now has 1.44 health/resource(roach=1.45, zealot=1.50). And that before its upgrade which pushes this to 1.84 to make it the beefiest unit per costs in the game. I fail to see how protoss needed that in a line up with the zealot, the archon, the blink stalker and the immortal to tank damage on the ground.
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On April 15 2015 05:36 Teoita wrote:
Lurker change is pointless. Cyclones are still dumb. Adepts are still worthless. I dont know how the fuck they decided to change the Tempest of all things since Protoss cant survive to late game anyway
The lurker range thing is meh. The responsiveness update is golden.
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They're trying to balance the tempest without changing its boring design. That's the biggest problem with SC2's endgame design. Endgame units are boring. Endgame unit interactions are boring. Endgame compositions are boring. The plays and counterplays are boring. The micro is boring. Every good, exciting, watchable game ends with midgame compositions.
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EPT
