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On June 16 2020 03:52 iCanada wrote:
Well and the onhit / auto attack component of his Q fucks with everything too. But that wouldn't be a big deal if it wasn't items and Keystones that it broke and was just items. Adds just so many levers. But even stuff like Vlad / Swain, Jax, Kindred, etc... Riot spends so much time balancing Champions around busted Keystones, then nerfing Keystones and then having to rebuff Champions etc.
Yeah that's the nature of Riot's systems team which I think has gotten worse. Conqueror in particular is just not healthy for the game. Press the attack for example is just overshadowed by conq in every way, because they both let you do more damage, except one also heals you and is easier to proc at the same time, and doesn't need to be restacked in teamfights. Off the top of my head, only renekton and quinn really even use the rune, and for renekton it's generally only better than conq in ranged matchups where you can't initiate with some stacks built up, and also might not get conq stacked for attacks.
Good keystones should enable playstyles. Things like hail of blades(bard, reksai) or aftershock lissandra for example.
IMO they need to put more into the flat stats(and more variety) in the runes, rather than the masteries themselves. Leave the masteries for playstyle affecting stuff rather than simply a statstick.
Lifesteal, spellvamp should be runed stats, where picking it trades early game power for mid-lategame utility for example. Don't put these in a tree where there isn't a meaningful choice.
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I think (cc) tanks perhaps have a good niche for press the attack since they can reliably stick to champ and proc it. Thing is that grasp and aftershock are so good (individually and in tf) that it's not worth it. Perhaps on Sion?
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PtA is still good, but it's become more niche on melee champions. Renekton might run it if he wants to win 1vs1 early for example, it's a super strong mastery combined with BotRK proccing off his W 2-3 times. I don't like how Conqueror has become the preferred rune for ADC either, it's too easy to proc and it synergizes too well with most kits.
Most of the good masteries like spammabble kits. I guess it's more correct to say that a lot of champs with spammy kits can make much better use of certain masteries, but the masteries are what create the problems in the first place, so...
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On June 16 2020 22:05 Uldridge wrote:
I think (cc) tanks perhaps have a good niche for press the attack since they can reliably stick to champ and proc it. Thing is that grasp and aftershock are so good (individually and in tf) that it's not worth it. Perhaps on Sion?
Nah. Watch a bunch of teamfights and count the number of autoattacks melee champions get off. Its super low, and most of them are usually after the teamfight was already decided and it is in the cleanup phase.
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On June 16 2020 22:09 DarkCore wrote:
I don't like how Conqueror has become the preferred rune for ADC either, it's too easy to proc and it synergizes too well with most kits
Adc is probably the most diverse role in terms of keystone with conq(ez), hob(Kaisa,Draven ), pta(Vayne), comet(Varus), grasp(Senna) and tempo(Ashe,xayah) all being the best depending.
Edit: forgot Jhin players have been moving to fleet
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I could see maybe some weird niche of top lane tanks that could use glacial augment just to stick onto players better, but idk why you would when the tank masteries are just better
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On June 17 2020 01:53 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2020 22:09 DarkCore wrote:
I don't like how Conqueror has become the preferred rune for ADC either, it's too easy to proc and it synergizes too well with most kits Adc is probably the most diverse role in terms of keystone ...
You serious ? Mages can go Aery, Phase, Comet, Electro, Dark, Conq, Aftershock, Fleet, Glacial, Spellbook and I am not sure I did not miss one or two. And although some of these runes are applicable to just some mages, most of the mages can go with each of these runes without fucking up or actually losing power. My advice will be, everytime you wanna use words like best, most, superior, op etc. for a class of champions, first check with the mages xD
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Fair enough I guess, i highlighted my my argument poorly which is simply that conq being too generally good hasn’t negatively effected the adc role (yet)
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Idk, I think being able to run Conquerer is a big advantage some ADC have over the rest: Ezreal and Aphelios can make use of it in small trades, meanwhile everyone else needs to either proc Lethality beforehand or get a longer trade with PtA. And once Conquerer fullys stacks, it is just as good as the other two masteries. Especially because Lethality only becomes effective if you're able to AA the entire time you proc it, and PtA requires focusing one target, they are both less flexible.
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Took me a while to realize you meant lethal tempo
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Well if you think about pta the 2 adcs that take it get all of their early damage from abilities that require you to pick a target, so it’s just an emphasis on a strengths rather than filling a weakness. Similarly Ashe and Xayah can pre proc tempo with a poke.
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PtA is in a pretty decent spot I think, it has a nice niche. It's a nice rune on early game junglers that can proc it nicely like Voli, WW, and Trundle; strong early and gives a more multiplier to scale your carries damage when you start to fall off.
It's definitely a bit outclassed as a keystone for carries though.
I'd definitely prefer to get rid of the whole masteries thing entirely, just give raw stats like old runes to help you gear for hard matchups or jungle clear. But that's just me, I guess Keystones and masteries provide an interesting twist to the game that wouldn't exist otherwise which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I just think they make true balance a fucking nightmare because of how some kits just inherently hard scale with the extra effects. Adds what I would call an unnecessary burden of knowledge to an already fairly complex game.
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I hard agree with Removal
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the biggest benefit to masteries is not having to fucking buy runes with a new account when you already gotta buy champs.
i mean having to buy champs already is fking dumb but buying runes on top was super stupid.
i dunno maybe im too privileged coming from dota
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I\'ve said it before and I'll say it again. They should have removed the masteries, kept the old rune system (maybe with some QoL changes) but with all runes free and available to everyone. So, people can have some liberty to do some cheese rune pages such as all ad runes on the cost of having a lot of secondary runes or just do regular AP, Tank, Ad pages or extra MR vs Syndra etc., but at the end its only raw stats that are not too little to not be felt at all and not too much to cause abominations like Katarina with conqueror or Lissandra with Aftershock, Veigar with Glacial and so on.
However, all of this will only make sense in a game where the competitive integrity is a primary goal. League's primary objectives are gimmicks, band aids and new shiny stuff to appeal for the masses and for the nowadays kids born in a world where things like competitiveness, trying to be the best, failures and the strive to overcome them are considered something bad and toxic. However, league is the most played game in the world, not dota so I guess it makes sense from the right point of view angle
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On June 18 2020 15:59 M2 wrote:
However, all of this will only make sense in a game where the competitive integrity is a primary goal. League's primary objectives are gimmicks, band aids and new shiny stuff to appeal for the masses and for the nowadays kids born in a world where things like competitiveness, trying to be the best, failures and the strive to overcome them are considered something bad and toxic. However, league is the most played game in the world, not dota so I guess it makes sense from the right point of view angle
I don't think DotA is a great example of competitive integrity over "flavour of the month" shinies to keep interest up. Every time I log on (like, once every month or two) there is some new bullshit gimmick (admittedly mostly cosmetic, but many of these are outright distracting and some look like abilities going off), and recently they added randomly dropping items in the jungle. I can't speak to how much random items have affected professional play, but it sits real badly with me to have that in a supposedly competitive game.
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On June 18 2020 16:20 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2020 15:59 M2 wrote:
However, all of this will only make sense in a game where the competitive integrity is a primary goal. League's primary objectives are gimmicks, band aids and new shiny stuff to appeal for the masses and for the nowadays kids born in a world where things like competitiveness, trying to be the best, failures and the strive to overcome them are considered something bad and toxic. However, league is the most played game in the world, not dota so I guess it makes sense from the right point of view angle I don't think DotA is a great example of competitive integrity over "flavour of the month" shinies to keep interest up. Every time I log on (like, once every month or two) there is some new bullshit gimmick (admittedly mostly cosmetic, but many of these are outright distracting and some look like abilities going off), and recently they added randomly dropping items in the jungle. I can't speak to how much random items have affected professional play, but it sits real badly with me to have that in a supposedly competitive game.
Well, truth is I haven't touched dota for a few years, so I was talking about the dota I knew from the past. I guess they are trying to get on the gimmicks train as well. Its where the money are
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yeah i also havent touched dota for a long time but i can say with absolute certainty that dota until at least 2016 was hands down THE moba esport. competitve integrity is what made dota
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Old runes were definitely designed to make you spend money so it’s unfortunate they will be forever linked to that, because they added fun nuance to customization that was both lesss game breaking than keystones while also having more match up variance than keystones.
With regards to random items in dots google team nigma + repair kit lol
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Riots shift from raw stats on runes/masteries to baking more and more power into them have led us to stupid shit like tank Ekko/Viktor/Fizz, drain-tank Katarina, Aftershock Lissandra. The only keystone I likeOmnistone and it's literally only for the dank situations it can allow.
I'd honestly love to see runes be completely cut, it'd open so much design space for items and champions. While Riots balance team have their blunders their design team have some pretty brilliant and creative workers.
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EPT
