Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
First, Aatrox's rework is kinda the norm. They rarely result in a good, easy to balance champion. So that is not an acceptable rationale for reworks anymore. Maybe 3-4 years ago this thought had promise, not anymore.
Personally I think that pretty much every rework has been in the vein of Aatrox, they all got more intricate kits where Riot had the possibility to adjust things besides damage numbers. And yeah, lots of them have failed miserably, the only one they've ever really gone back on was that Kog abomination.
Oh god, did he just block Syndra ult. More Yasuo windwall cancer?
But more intricacy doesn't always make balancing easier, with so many champions it makes it harder in many ways, because as they all get "intricate" they increasingly look the same and they lose their niches. Like, Zed used to be the AD Assassin who could get out after assassinating his guy. Now Zed's slipperyness doesn't feel all that unique in the category. Talon jumps over walls, camille hookshots around, irelia bladesurges into the backline then back out again. Much harder to have any of them as a good niche pick.
On July 31 2019 02:22 AdsMoFro wrote: The main thing about reworks is usually the ones that are done solo are better than the ones done in batches. The Assassin update was a failure, ADC one was pretty fkn bad. Juggernaut one resulted in MEGA OP champs. Tank one (although only 3 champs) was bad considering the Zac one was reverted and Maokai is so fkn trash to play now.
The Aatrox update and the subsequent attempts at balance are so weird lol.
That trio of updated champs (Irelia/Akali/Aatrox) were allowed to just control the meta for over a year with many changes failing to fix the core problems of the champs.
Other updates that I liked/Improved upon the champ with some balance issues but overall a healthier champ: Sion/Taric/Poppy/Nunu/Swain**/Eve/Xin/Urgot/Warwick/Fiora
I think the solo updates in general were way better and Riot has learnt (or at least said that they've learnt) from attempting to do massive sweeping changes to classes in one go.
I have some serious issues with some of your picks. Swain and Urgot in particular I don't think are healthier at all. They just got buffed a lot. A lot of the others are pretty non-memorable to me aside from Sion (which I think was fine), Taric (also fine), and Poppy (to me pretty lame, caused the same homogenization problem as above, just in a different character class).
The Sion rework was awful. Game is still missing a replacement for the old AP Sion. Closest equivalent is perhaps taliyah, but her feel is so incredibly different it's impossible to compare.
On July 31 2019 04:48 iCanada wrote: The Sion rework was awful. Game is still missing a replacement for the old AP Sion. Closest equivalent is perhaps taliyah, but her feel is so incredibly different it's impossible to compare.
Who exactly replaced ap Sion, then? Because that's what old Sion players played. There is no other early spiking tanky burst mage that could one shot waves and roam with reliable CC. Taliyah is imo the closest, but she can't push and has no reliable CC, and isn't tanky.
But more intricacy doesn't always make balancing easier, with so many champions it makes it harder in many ways, because as they all get "intricate" they increasingly look the same and they lose their niches. Like, Zed used to be the AD Assassin who could get out after assassinating his guy. Now Zed's slipperyness doesn't feel all that unique in the category. Talon jumps over walls, camille hookshots around, irelia bladesurges into the backline then back out again. Much harder to have any of them as a good niche pick.
I agree, the more intricate champions are the higher the likelihood of the player base finding something exploitable. A lot of the recent reworks have felt like Riot rolling back features every patch, playing a game of whack-a-mole until the champion is crappy. And with how big kits have gotten, nerfs can keep rolling out for months, just look at new Irelia, she's still pretty frustrating to play against. Aatrox and Akali are probably going to continue being tweaked or Riot's going to just say fuck it, time to get out Morello's nerf hammer.
Swain and Urgot in particular I don't think are healthier at all
New Swain, so after the rework, is not healthy for the game at all. His passive is incredibly oppressive, imo he's in that weird limbo region where he can't be allowed to become meta because he'd be pick/ban every single game. And now Riot double downed on it by giving him the health scaling.
Game is still missing a replacement for the old AP Sion.
Lol, I literally started the game watching Reginald play old Sion and copying him, that champ was awful. Everyone should be glad it's gone.
AP Sion was my go to for farming freelo when duoing. Level 2 gank was basically impossible to stop and then both me and the jungler would just hard snowball. By 15 minutes you could be diving inhib towers with a 1500 life shield and the point and click stun. But if you didn't win by 25 minutes you kinda were a glorified taric. Lol.
I loved that champ. I don't think any other champ ever had such a steep drop off mid lategame though.
Ooof. Update kinda guts pantheons ratios, although E is total AD. But yikes that ratio is much lower. And they doubled all his CDs. His damage got cleaved; he likely is losing 25% of his burst combo damage even if he hits all his skillshots, you miss some its like halfed.
On July 31 2019 07:11 iCanada wrote: AP Sion was my go to for farming freelo when duoing. Level 2 gank was basically impossible to stop and then both me and the jungler would just hard snowball. By 15 minutes you could be diving inhib towers with a 1500 life shield and the point and click stun. But if you didn't win by 25 minutes you kinda were a glorified taric. Lol.
I loved that champ. I don't think any other champ ever had such a steep drop off mid lategame though.
Ooof. Update kinda guts pantheons ratios, although E is total AD. But yikes that ratio is much lower. And they doubled all his CDs. His damage got cleaved; he likely is losing 25% of his burst combo damage even if he hits all his skillshots, you miss some its like halfed.
Yup, just looking at his preview the dmg was low af. I'm sure it'll be hotfixed to be OP tho
Not a hotfix please, they need to let him have two weeks or more before buffing him. It takes time to figure out where to place new champions because of how big the game has gotten, like people took over a week to not use Flash on Yuumi.
He seems to break even damage from old Pantheon midgame. That feels still to me looking at it through the lens of old Pantheon; if I didn't have a substantial lead by then I lost or was actively being a 6v4 participant. But idk, new panth is fundamentally different in a lot of ways, like his mid late have should be much much better.
I lost lane to a teemo on pbe. Can't say I've ever seen that happen. Lol.
But I have a lot of hard ingrained pantheon play patterns that are fundamentally wrong at this point, so idk. I'm probably a worse judge of his strength than random players. For example a couple times I wanted to go do something else, when i realised New pantheon of actually good at messing around Aram style near a tower. My gut feeling is that he's weak though, but I'm probably reflexively playing him wrong.
On July 31 2019 22:42 iCanada wrote: He seems to break even damage from old Pantheon midgame. That feels still to me looking at it through the lens of old Pantheon; if I didn't have a substantial lead by then I lost or was actively being a 6v4 participant. But idk, new panth is fundamentally different in a lot of ways, like his mid late have should be much much better.
I lost lane to a teemo on pbe. Can't say I've ever seen that happen. Lol.
But I have a lot of hard ingrained pantheon play patterns that are fundamentally wrong at this point, so idk. I'm probably a worse judge of his strength than random players. For example a couple times I wanted to go do something else, when i realised New pantheon of actually good at messing around Aram style near a tower. My gut feeling is that he's weak though, but I'm probably reflexively playing him wrong.
Have you tried him jungle? Seems like some of his lane power got moved around to ganking ability and general scaling.
Galio seem really strong now. I love it, liked playing him top.
On July 31 2019 07:11 iCanada wrote: AP Sion was my go to for farming freelo when duoing. Level 2 gank was basically impossible to stop and then both me and the jungler would just hard snowball. By 15 minutes you could be diving inhib towers with a 1500 life shield and the point and click stun. But if you didn't win by 25 minutes you kinda were a glorified taric. Lol.
I loved that champ. I don't think any other champ ever had such a steep drop off mid lategame though.
Ooof. Update kinda guts pantheons ratios, although E is total AD. But yikes that ratio is much lower. And they doubled all his CDs. His damage got cleaved; he likely is losing 25% of his burst combo damage even if he hits all his skillshots, you miss some its like halfed.
How much stronger (if it is?) is his all-in with his passive ready? I'd imagine you can get two empowered off one from the engage and a fade away spear?
On August 01 2019 01:39 DarkCore wrote: The old Riot classic, rework champion to be too weak for lane, but people discover he can be jungled.
Yes. The reworked Aatrox, Irelia, Akali, Shen, Sion, Mordekaiser, Urgot, Gangplank, Fiora, Poppy, Ryze, Graves and Nidalee is/were definitely weak laners and most didn't get nerfed because they were too strong laners. :^)
I’m not going to comment on the pantheon mechanics as my opinion on reworks is basically known, but I will say the Art team didn’t understand the appeal to ruthless at all.
Yes. The reworked Aatrox, Irelia, Akali, Shen, Sion, Mordekaiser, Urgot, Gangplank, Fiora, Poppy, Ryze, Graves and Nidalee is/were definitely weak laners and most didn't get nerfed because they were too strong laners. :^)
Can't tell if this is sarcasm. But I mean, there was a small period after some Aatrox changes where pros ran him more in the jungle than lane. After Urgot was heavily nerfed, he disappeared for a few weeks only to suddenly become the strongest jungler in the game. And I do believe reworked Graves was initially intended for the lane, his kit is just useless there. Point is, reworks have unintended consequences, and once Riot tries to tweak them quite a few have found their home in the jungle.
Yes. The reworked Aatrox, Irelia, Akali, Shen, Sion, Mordekaiser, Urgot, Gangplank, Fiora, Poppy, Ryze, Graves and Nidalee is/were definitely weak laners and most didn't get nerfed because they were too strong laners. :^)
Can't tell if this is sarcasm. But I mean, there was a small period after some Aatrox changes where pros ran him more in the jungle than lane. After Urgot was heavily nerfed, he disappeared for a few weeks only to suddenly become the strongest jungler in the game. And I do believe reworked Graves was initially intended for the lane, his kit is just useless there. Point is, reworks have unintended consequences, and once Riot tries to tweak them quite a few have found their home in the jungle.
They were all initially played as laners after their rework. My point was it wasn't their rework that got them into the jungle, it was post rework changes. But changes can have all sorts of unintentional consequences rework or not. So I dont think it's fair to call it a Riot special that their reworks are too weak laners.
Graves was a high priority toplaner for some patches since he completely clapped melee champions. Cant remember if it was nerfs or meta changes that placed him back in the jungle.
The only reworks I can think of that became junglers was originally junglers - Nunu and Warwick.
Aatrox right after the rework was an S tier jungler. But you're right, that's pretty much it.
New pantheon I'm convinced that PtA (jungle) or conqueror(lane or if your comp lacks damage) is best Keystone options. With Conqueror especially I think boneplating is op. I think he's better in Lane than I originally thought it's really hard to trade with him from level 3 on when he has all his abilities because he just has insta 5stack on conqueror after you hit em with Qt-Wp-auto's you and he's just sticking to you with auto+Q spam holding E for your retaliation. Q start, W or E level 2 i think matchup dependant. R>Q>W>E. I honestly think E one point wonder, lower W CD is more useful. You're weak as shit till level 3 though, you need threat of E damage mitigation to force trades other guy doesn't feel like they can retaliate on.
His strength in Lane really shifted though. Less of a harass / poke -> all in style and more of a, to quote one of my adolescent hockey coaches, "go wear his ****ing equipment!" style. Like... All in -> poke and zone with HP advantage instead. Kinda backwards from old Spartan. Matchup paradigm is different too, think he's kinda bad into the ranged stuff he used to poop on (see teemo, GP), but a lot a lot better at fighting tanks.
Although perhaps I didn't crack the code and it's just a plat player styling on lower level players due to pve matchmaking. Idk.
On August 02 2019 08:35 iCanada wrote: Aatrox right after the rework was an S tier jungler. But you're right, that's pretty much it.
Save a few odd games Aatrox was played almost entirely in top and mid right after his rework. Korea and EU picked him up instantly for top and mid when he was released in the pro scene (Rift Rivals). It took a few patches before he went into the jungle (when they reduced his Q damage to minions).
How does new Pantheon fare against mega tanks now?
On August 02 2019 08:35 iCanada wrote: Aatrox right after the rework was an S tier jungler. But you're right, that's pretty much it.
Save a few odd games Aatrox was played almost entirely in top and mid right after his rework. Korea and EU picked him up instantly for top and mid when he was released in the pro scene (Rift Rivals). It took a few patches before he went into the jungle (when they reduced his Q damage to minions).
How does new Pantheon fare against mega tanks now?
He was definitely more favoured for top, but that doesn't mean he wasn't also arguably the most oppressive jungler too. Hence why they nerfed his minion damage so many times.
I changed my mind again re: pantheon. He's just awful in Lane currently. Loses every matchup unless and even if your Lane opponent screws up and you outplay then with E. He just doesn't do damage. I died 1v1 to a fiora whom missed her riposte, and I E invulnerable'd two vital price while not missing a single spear. He just does no damage. And if fiora is good you'll never hit a Q; it's literally old pantheon vs original GP but pantheon is GP and Fiora is pantheon.
Tank lanes are just silly wet noodle fights. I think they are his best matchups at the moment though. Stuff he used to bully just kick his butt at the moment, even when they are bad players who are several thousand gold behind from farming. Problem is that his Q is his only damage and the rest of his kit has none. In 1v1s he's string at level 1 and 2, but then just falls off once everyone has all their abilities unless they completely under our over respect E. Also, his hold Q is utter shite in Lane; does literally zero damage because it'll hit minions first and the CD is so long desire it being his only damage ability. If you ever use it in Lane and your opponent has a brain he'll kill you. Execute is only on his hold Q; due to the minion passthrough interaction it literally usually does less damage than if you tap Q. He generally does less damage if your opponent is braindead and you okay perfect, but you also lose a lot of that because you're damage is no longer reliable. I think he's bad in duels, tbh.
I think he's ok in the jungle. His 2v2s are quite good, but 1v1 he's close to amumu tier early game. His clear is strong although you need some basic jungle creep micro first clear to stay healthy (kiting till spear up, 3v2 auto trades, maximizing rejuv bead; i just mention it because some of my friends struggled with the clear and I had to talk them through it, hopefully yall do this on every champ in the jungle) and he ganks very well though. I don't think top tier, but better in Jungle than in Lane.
On August 09 2019 06:02 iCanada wrote: Kass buffs on pbe right now. 30 damage to W? I almost think Kass might bully top laners like Fiora / Jax / Irelia with this buff. Big damage.
Gut feeling is that he's going to have a real hard time fighting back still.
Jax E blocks kass W(basically fucks him at level 1), and level 2 can just jump him with a stun. Don't see Kass surviving this matchup.
Irelia is still probably going to almost kill him with a single stun at 2. Going to have to play so scared.
Fiora probably the least likely to kill him of those 3 by virtue of not having lockdown.
Idk, 70 damage twice on an auto attack reset in a level 1 fight is pretty scary. For reference Jax W is only 30 damage level 1 on the same CD. Also keeping in mind he gets 20 damage onhit from W passive. Thats 180 every 7 seconds when you go to trade.
I dont really play top aside from Spartan autofills, but honestly thats pretty scary. Worst case he farms with Q till 3, and he can easily outplay them for sure with the big E slow will always be up. Idk. I could be out to lunch. He would have to build pretty tanky too, I suppose.
For reference, per op.gg with a sample size of about 150 games each in Korea Diamond+, he has a 49.0% winrate vs Irelia / Fiora top atm, although Jax shits on him (46.3% WR). He may still shit on him. And I think he'll still lose to classic lane bullies (Darius / Rene / Aatrox / Teemo / Yas / Riven etc).
In any case, certainly makes mid Kassadin kinda scary, as I would say he is currently pretty balanced for an assassin with such an oppressive late game.
He also will take literally double damage from creeps than me if he w’s me in the wave
My guess with respect to the win rate is Korea Diamond + games are probably all better bot wins(regardless of top match up). I actually cannot think of any conceivable way to lose that lane as Irelia.
I'm not sure that he needs to win the lane per-say, I think Kass just kinda does Irelia's job better late game and Irelia can't really kill Kass. Probably quite similiar to the Yasuo matchup, like Irelia wins lane, but like Yasuo just kind of wins the game. Except that currently Irelia probably wins the lane much harder vs Kass.
Not sure there is a champion I'd rather have level 16 with 3 or 4 items than Kassadin. Kass scary af from 30 to 40 minutes. Maybe Vlad / Cass? And I guess the obvious Kayle. Maybe Sona?
On August 09 2019 13:13 iCanada wrote: I'm not sure that he needs to win the lane per-say, I think Kass just kinda does Irelia's job better late game and Irelia can't really kill Kass. Probably quite similiar to the Yasuo matchup, like Irelia wins lane, but like Yasuo just kind of wins the game. Except that currently Irelia probably wins the lane much harder vs Kass.
Not sure there is a champion I'd rather have level 16 with 3 or 4 items than Kassadin. Kass scary af from 30 to 40 minutes. Maybe Vlad / Cass? And I guess the obvious Kayle. Maybe Sona?
Kass lategame is why you pick him though, once you hit 16, assuming your team isn't super far behind or the enemy has strangely built a comp to shut him down, he deletes entire teams so easily. Funnily enough he also destroys Vlad and Cass once he gets to that point. Getting there is the problem, there's so much in the game currently that can shut him down, and he's pretty lackluster in the current fast paced snowball meta, more early damage doesn't really address that.
Strange that Riot thinks damage adjustments is what Kass needs. If they're not careful, he could go back to being ludicrously broken.
my Apprehension for picking Kass is rarely the lane match up, it’s if my bot loses and their bot does an outer turret rotation to all 3 lanes you actually just don’t get to play the game as kassadin
That got me thinking, is it possible to jungle Kass if his AA do more damage early? Is it champion only or does it include minions? He could fill a gimmicky role like jungle Karthus, no CC but an extra flash at lv 6 with red buff can be pretty scary.
This would go back to the base armor thing I mentioned earlier, he has the lowest base armor in the game not counting ori who has a steroid as well as terrible growth and his aoe is conditional, meaning his best possible opening route is probably like red>blue>krug and even then he might have to base
Idk, my gut feel is that it would be troll as hell to jungle Kass because he basically can't AoE farm raps wolves golems or gank till 6. Also, as someone who used to play a ton of jungle taric in plat after his rework prior to the big Mama nerfs, you'd have opponent junglers on your nuts cheesing just because they see a non meta jungler. It was fine on taric because you could legit 1v1 anything as long as you had mana, but like I'm pretty sure a Kass would int hard to like Lee / Kha / Xin / Elise / Reksai / J4 / Nidalee.
Hard to say. I'll look at the clear when I get home though, I'm curious.
EDIT: Yeah its troll as fuck still on PBE. Even with perfect kiting you can barely path Red->Wolves->Blue, let alone hit four. If you try to do Red->Golems or Red->Raps you just die. He jungles quickly though, LOL. Thats with Machete, with Rejuv bead its worse.
I guess with a leash you might be able to hit level 3 before you back and do alright... but like... Idk man.
The entire need for point and click stuns in the game is to counter mobility. If you can dash cancel panth w it’s just a shit version of melee aoe stuns like Jax/Taric/galio
EPT
