EPTOn April 15 2018 10:45 Ansibled wrote:
cheep clash strategies
cheep clash strategies
LOL! Classic Csheep!
[Patch 8.7] Irelia Rework Discussion - Page 4
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
LOL! Classic Csheep! | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On April 15 2018 14:26 iCanada wrote: The difference in attack speed is real small. Its just 2 attack cool downs, and your already have +40% attack speed from E. You also get the move-speed from Black Cleaver. Difference of 1.363 attacks per second and 1.129 attacks per second. The difference is 1.54s for the auto attack portions vs 1.72s for the auto attack portion @ level 11. I think if you are fed enough for triforce to be better than Cleaver, you legit could build like Nashors tooth + Deathcap and it be K. http://na.op.gg/champion/xinzhao/statistics/jungle Thing is, literally everyone is building trinity and not BC. -You're assuming you can get 4 autos in but you're not assuming you can get the second trinity proc. -You're ignoring the 8% movement speed on trinity which is great for closing the gap to get in range for E -You seem to be counting BC ms but not trinity ms which is better as it gives 60 after a kill. -You're ignoring ~1000 gold worth of attack speed for the reason that it was harder to calculate the difference. -You're assuming a xin zhao is focusing the same target as the ADC. Might sometimes work because of Xins R but if R isn't up focusing a tank while their team focuses you will always turn out badly in an even fight. Sometimes even with your R it won't work out so well. +You didn't calculate in the armour shred of BC and the extra hp it provides. However, most of xins damage comes in before the BC stacks are procced fully. And we expect sheen provides much more dps than that over a 6-8s fight. So basically your argument is that getting a pickaxe+giants belt is essentially better than a trinity force. Have you tried playing Trinity xin vs BC xin to check your findings? I've always found trinity to feel far superior damage wise even if it's more expensive. You said the difference in attack speed is small but the 40% attack speed is worth 2x as much as the 15 AD which you meticulously calculated out. (1000 gold AS vs 525 gold AD) Also sheen gets much better with levels/steraks as pointed out by others. Looking at xin's League wiki he has 3.1 AD ratio from 3x Q + passive + W + R + E. 4 Autos = 4.0 AD ratio. Total 7.1 AD ratio. Napkinning it level 11's Xin damgage WITHOUT BC is 1100 - 7.1x40 = 800 damage. Trinity ~ 1200. ~1400 with 2 procs. (Assuming here BC armpen == 40% AS where AS is probably better) Trinity 1 proc: 50% increase BC without armpen: 37.5.% increase Trinity 2 proc: 75% increase. So if you get 2 trinity procs trinity is approximately 2x better than BC in terms of improving your damage output. Which is why it probably feels like it's 2x better. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
I think picking irelia vs 2x tanks + lulu/vayne is probably worse than everything that happened in that trading phase | ||
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loSleb
Austria1389 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On April 16 2018 01:17 cLutZ wrote: I'd argue any math assuming more than 2 melle attacks is inherently suspect. This is also true, but then you start to come to the conclusion auto attacking melee champions are garbage except for split pushing which is basically what happens in pro play but sometimes we see tank jax so i guess its k. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
i mean in small skirmishes earlier he's strong but in teamfights it can be bad news bears | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
froggen/insec/forgiven team playing now | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On April 15 2018 21:39 Slayer91 wrote: -You're assuming you can get 4 autos in but you're not assuming you can get the second trinity proc. -You're ignoring the 8% movement speed on trinity which is great for closing the gap to get in range for E -You seem to be counting BC ms but not trinity ms which is better as it gives 60 after a kill. -You're ignoring ~1000 gold worth of attack speed for the reason that it was harder to calculate the difference. -You're assuming a xin zhao is focusing the same target as the ADC. Might sometimes work because of Xins R but if R isn't up focusing a tank while their team focuses you will always turn out badly in an even fight. Sometimes even with your R it won't work out so well. +You didn't calculate in the armour shred of BC and the extra hp it provides. However, most of xins damage comes in before the BC stacks are procced fully. And we expect sheen provides much more dps than that over a 6-8s fight. So basically your argument is that getting a pickaxe+giants belt is essentially better than a trinity force. Have you tried playing Trinity xin vs BC xin to check your findings? I've always found trinity to feel far superior damage wise even if it's more expensive. You said the difference in attack speed is small but the 40% attack speed is worth 2x as much as the 15 AD which you meticulously calculated out. (1000 gold AS vs 525 gold AD) Also sheen gets much better with levels/steraks as pointed out by others. Looking at xin's League wiki he has 3.1 AD ratio from 3x Q + passive + W + R + E. 4 Autos = 4.0 AD ratio. Total 7.1 AD ratio. Napkinning it level 11's Xin damgage WITHOUT BC is 1100 - 7.1x40 = 800 damage. Trinity ~ 1200. ~1400 with 2 procs. (Assuming here BC armpen == 40% AS where AS is probably better) Trinity 1 proc: 50% increase BC without armpen: 37.5.% increase Trinity 2 proc: 75% increase. So if you get 2 trinity procs trinity is approximately 2x better than BC in terms of improving your damage output. Which is why it probably feels like it's 2x better. For the record, I spend all day farting around with spreadsheets, the calc doesn't take long. I also just find it kind of interesting in a problem solving kind of way. + Show Spoiler + -You're assuming you can get 4 autos in but you're not assuming you can get the second trinity proc. How exactly are you playing Xin so that you are getting 2 sheen procs in a single round of spells? Have you played him before? All his CD's are higher than 6s with 40% CDR and hitting all your autos from Q. The only way you get 2 sheen procs in is if you are flanking in an odd man skirmish and engaging from behind with W-Q and holding E for a flash/escape, in which case it doesn't really matter what items you have; just kind of a win more excercise at that point. + Show Spoiler + -You're ignoring the 8% movement speed on trinity which is great for closing the gap to get in range for E Its 5% MS. On Xin w/ t2 boots this is the difference between 370 base MS and 388 MS; we're talking an extra 5s to move a teemo length... Considering Xin has a 900 range 50% slow for 1.5s on his W, its kind of negligible if you can hit your W, because you have like 3 teemos in which you gain ground in that 1.5s. Your E has a 600 range, for the record; in combination with your W, basically if they can hit you, you can E to them even if you dont have T2 boots. + Show Spoiler + -You seem to be counting BC ms but not trinity ms which is better as it gives 60 after a kill. BC and Trinity force literally have an identical rage passive. They both give 60 after a kill or an assist. + Show Spoiler + -You're ignoring ~1000 gold worth of attack speed for the reason that it was harder to calculate the difference. I'm not ignoring it. It is just relatively negligible because Xin's base AS is very low and his Q is also an AS reset. Its a difference of 0.25s to complete the combo; like its to the point where terrain and kiting in most fights will make it identical; you will get 4 autos because you have the dash, phase rush, ult zone, and the slows.... but you likely wont get more than that off. You also will never be standing still autoing something unless it is diving your carry or something... in which case the armor shred will out-preform the sheen anyway. My point is more that 1000 gold worth of attack speed is kind of a poor investment on Xin because he is melee and has an auto reset + Show Spoiler + -You're assuming a xin zhao is focusing the same target as the ADC. Might sometimes work because of Xins R but if R isn't up focusing a tank while their team focuses you will always turn out badly in an even fight. Sometimes even with your R it won't work out so well. No I'm not, I'm just saying that BC gives potentially more team damage and nearly similar solo damage, but you're also tankier. + Show Spoiler + Have you tried playing Trinity xin vs BC xin to check your findings? I've always found trinity to feel far superior damage wise even if it's more expensive. Yeah, I actually find them to be relatively similiar. I dunno, if you manage to 1v1 a squishy with trinity it feels fucking great, but I dont really see that a lot in my games. Must be a play-style thing, or perhaps you're significantly better than me at finding squishies alone. In any case, Xin is my highest winrate jungler, and I've been building BC almost exclusively for about 2 patches now. Idk, lategame xin with trinity force feels fucking awful; like you can be fed as balls and then the top laner you camped all game who has 3k less gold than you just kills you. Feels way better mid late having that BC... perhaps this is a symptom of me being lower ELO than you and games just lasting longer, idk. Even if damage is your big concern, because of Xin's reworked W just having more AD for the ARAM thing is good too. He isn't old Xin that is kinda all in or bust, he has a lot more options now a days, and while its not a huge factor or margin, BC is better for this scenario than TF bar none. Other big plus to BC that hasn't really been discussed is it is a much much nicer build path assuming you going like Warrior > Boots2 > Phage > other components. Kindlegem is much nicer to build than Sheen or Stinger; you're guaranteed to get your ruby crystal + pink ward whereas depending on your back timings for how things are going macro-wise getting stuck with a mana crystal or a dagger doesn't really get you any combat power. Much more consistent power curve this way. For giggles, lets assume you do get two sheen procs off in this skirmish: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/sSDJEHL.png) Note: eHP calcs done using average between armor and Mres, and resists column assumes you bought 1 cloth and 1 null magic. Realistically, most games you are just scared of one combat threat, so you likely get another ~8% eHP going that route than shown against your primary damage threat, but for the sake of simplicity lets roll with it this way. The other thing that I look at, is pro's are building cleaver much more frequently than the general public is, and while a lot of pros build badly, I think there is some merit there because a lot of pros get told to build whatever is most optimal by a coach. http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/XinZhao Last 40 games a pro has played in challenger+, 17 of them have built Trinity force (42.5%), 15 of them have built Cleaver (37.5%), and 8 of them built neither (20%). In comparison with general populous, on op.gg ~78% of Xin's are building Trinity Force, and ~3% are building Black Cleaver, with 19% building neither. In any event, pros build cleaver at a rate 10x higher than the general public, and trinity force at half the rate of the general public. Maybe this has to do with them having more faith their ADC can do damage too, idk. In the very least I think Cleaver is being hard slept on. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On April 16 2018 03:02 Slayer91 wrote: This is also true, but then you start to come to the conclusion auto attacking melee champions are garbage except for split pushing which is basically what happens in pro play but sometimes we see tank jax so i guess its k. Tank Jax isn't competing for the same role though. He is there for his clear speed, dragons, etc. If your plans involve a jungle Jax initiating with Flash-Counterstrike, you haven't made great plans. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
I mean his ganks are skirmishing are pretty good but he is a single target autoattacker with low CDs and minimal AoE your clear is one of the worst out of any meta jungler I think lol. Actually his ganks aren't even that great. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On April 16 2018 10:35 iCanada wrote: For the record, I spend all day farting around with spreadsheets, the calc doesn't take long. I also just find it kind of interesting in a problem solving kind of way. + Show Spoiler + -You're assuming you can get 4 autos in but you're not assuming you can get the second trinity proc. How exactly are you playing Xin so that you are getting 2 sheen procs in a single round of spells? Have you played him before? All his CD's are higher than 6s with 40% CDR and hitting all your autos from Q. The only way you get 2 sheen procs in is if you are flanking in an odd man skirmish and engaging from behind with W-Q and holding E for a flash/escape, in which case it doesn't really matter what items you have; just kind of a win more excercise at that point. + Show Spoiler + -You're ignoring the 8% movement speed on trinity which is great for closing the gap to get in range for E Its 5% MS. On Xin w/ t2 boots this is the difference between 370 base MS and 388 MS; we're talking an extra 5s to move a teemo length... Considering Xin has a 900 range 50% slow for 1.5s on his W, its kind of negligible if you can hit your W, because you have like 3 teemos in which you gain ground in that 1.5s. Your E has a 600 range, for the record; in combination with your W, basically if they can hit you, you can E to them even if you dont have T2 boots. + Show Spoiler + -You seem to be counting BC ms but not trinity ms which is better as it gives 60 after a kill. BC and Trinity force literally have an identical rage passive. They both give 60 after a kill or an assist. + Show Spoiler + -You're ignoring ~1000 gold worth of attack speed for the reason that it was harder to calculate the difference. I'm not ignoring it. It is just relatively negligible because Xin's base AS is very low and his Q is also an AS reset. Its a difference of 0.25s to complete the combo; like its to the point where terrain and kiting in most fights will make it identical; you will get 4 autos because you have the dash, phase rush, ult zone, and the slows.... but you likely wont get more than that off. You also will never be standing still autoing something unless it is diving your carry or something... in which case the armor shred will out-preform the sheen anyway. My point is more that 1000 gold worth of attack speed is kind of a poor investment on Xin because he is melee and has an auto reset + Show Spoiler + -You're assuming a xin zhao is focusing the same target as the ADC. Might sometimes work because of Xins R but if R isn't up focusing a tank while their team focuses you will always turn out badly in an even fight. Sometimes even with your R it won't work out so well. No I'm not, I'm just saying that BC gives potentially more team damage and nearly similar solo damage, but you're also tankier. + Show Spoiler + Have you tried playing Trinity xin vs BC xin to check your findings? I've always found trinity to feel far superior damage wise even if it's more expensive. Yeah, I actually find them to be relatively similiar. I dunno, if you manage to 1v1 a squishy with trinity it feels fucking great, but I dont really see that a lot in my games. Must be a play-style thing, or perhaps you're significantly better than me at finding squishies alone. In any case, Xin is my highest winrate jungler, and I've been building BC almost exclusively for about 2 patches now. Idk, lategame xin with trinity force feels fucking awful; like you can be fed as balls and then the top laner you camped all game who has 3k less gold than you just kills you. Feels way better mid late having that BC... perhaps this is a symptom of me being lower ELO than you and games just lasting longer, idk. Even if damage is your big concern, because of Xin's reworked W just having more AD for the ARAM thing is good too. He isn't old Xin that is kinda all in or bust, he has a lot more options now a days, and while its not a huge factor or margin, BC is better for this scenario than TF bar none. Other big plus to BC that hasn't really been discussed is it is a much much nicer build path assuming you going like Warrior > Boots2 > Phage > other components. Kindlegem is much nicer to build than Sheen or Stinger; you're guaranteed to get your ruby crystal + pink ward whereas depending on your back timings for how things are going macro-wise getting stuck with a mana crystal or a dagger doesn't really get you any combat power. Much more consistent power curve this way. For giggles, lets assume you do get two sheen procs off in this skirmish: + Show Spoiler + Note: eHP calcs done using average between armor and Mres, and resists column assumes you bought 1 cloth and 1 null magic. Realistically, most games you are just scared of one combat threat, so you likely get another ~8% eHP going that route than shown against your primary damage threat, but for the sake of simplicity lets roll with it this way. The other thing that I look at, is pro's are building cleaver much more frequently than the general public is, and while a lot of pros build badly, I think there is some merit there because a lot of pros get told to build whatever is most optimal by a coach. http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/XinZhao Last 40 games a pro has played in challenger+, 17 of them have built Trinity force (42.5%), 15 of them have built Cleaver (37.5%), and 8 of them built neither (20%). In comparison with general populous, on op.gg ~78% of Xin's are building Trinity Force, and ~3% are building Black Cleaver, with 19% building neither. In any event, pros build cleaver at a rate 10x higher than the general public, and trinity force at half the rate of the general public. Maybe this has to do with them having more faith their ADC can do damage too, idk. In the very least I think Cleaver is being hard slept on. I'll be honest I haven't played too much new Xin but I would assume post trinity you'd try to hit W after you hit the knockup which should be around the time sheen comes up again. I don't think ignoring attack speed while doing hard calcs for everything else is justified. Again you just make up some stuff like "0.25s isn't that much" when it could be the difference between getting the combo off and not getting it off, depending on getting CC'd or the enemy getting out of range etc. Attack speed is effective even when you are stutter stepping. You remember those turbo korean kogs? They were doing it because stutter stepping is effective regardless of AS. I could easily make the same argument you're making that you can definitely get 4 autos off with 40% more AS but you'll only get 3 and no knockup without it.. it's baseless. My bad about the BC, I just read the lolwiki's and the thought the tooltip was different. I was surprised too I thought they were the same and it turns out they are lol. Movement speed is relative. 20 more ms is a big deal if you are chasing down a squishy at the edge of your E range. If you've ever played any non hard gap closer champ with a speedup you should be able to appreciate that it's essential for closing a gap against any targets that try to run. The E just adds a 600 range buffer. As for the pro stats, I don't think Xin would be too effective in pro play as you'd just focus him down. As a result any builds that tend toward full tank will gain more popularity at higher levels. The damage items are great for earlier on but in teamfight phase normally you want to be tanky so having glass cannon xin mightn't be too effective. I may be wrong about this. At any rate the easiest way to play is to have melees going tank, I'm not certain it's always the best though. You're correct that BC gives more team stats and tankiness, if it was similar damage wise for teamfights and skirmishing it would definitely be superior but I'm not convinced at all. I didn't check out your new numbers but I don't understand why the numbers for the original cases have changed. P.S I like the "Firepower" stat Damage*EHP as a metric for your overall dueling power. I remember theorycrafting around and it usually gives the general result of who wins a generic 1v1. Basically if you have 2x the HP you have 2x the Time to live and if you have 2x the DPS enemy has 1/2 the TTL so it should work out. Damage + EHP is misleading because high EHP+low dmg or high dmg + low EHP might seem effective but its a terrible indicator of dueling strength. EDIT: I notice E max second on xin seems standard from champion.gg. I would have thought Q second is better for the extra knockups? 20% AS and 100 dmg is a decent damage hit but you get 60 more Q dmg + lower CDs on Q, and W/E with the CDR from Q. Maybe E second is a big help for clearing? | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On April 18 2018 02:30 Slayer91 wrote: I'll be honest I haven't played too much new Xin but I would assume post trinity you'd try to hit W after you hit the knockup which should be around the time sheen comes up again. I don't think ignoring attack speed while doing hard calcs for everything else is justified. Again you just make up some stuff like "0.25s isn't that much" when it could be the difference between getting the combo off and not getting it off, depending on getting CC'd or the enemy getting out of range etc. Attack speed is effective even when you are stutter stepping. You remember those turbo korean kogs? They were doing it because stutter stepping is effective regardless of AS. I could easily make the same argument you're making that you can definitely get 4 autos off with 40% more AS but you'll only get 3 and no knockup without it.. it's baseless. My bad about the BC, I just read the lolwiki's and the thought the tooltip was different. I was surprised too I thought they were the same and it turns out they are lol. Movement speed is relative. 20 more ms is a big deal if you are chasing down a squishy at the edge of your E range. If you've ever played any non hard gap closer champ with a speedup you should be able to appreciate that it's essential for closing a gap against any targets that try to run. The E just adds a 600 range buffer. As for the pro stats, I don't think Xin would be too effective in pro play as you'd just focus him down. As a result any builds that tend toward full tank will gain more popularity at higher levels. The damage items are great for earlier on but in teamfight phase normally you want to be tanky so having glass cannon xin mightn't be too effective. I may be wrong about this. At any rate the easiest way to play is to have melees going tank, I'm not certain it's always the best though. You're correct that BC gives more team stats and tankiness, if it was similar damage wise for teamfights and skirmishing it would definitely be superior but I'm not convinced at all. P.S I like the "Firepower" stat Damage*EHP as a metric for your overall dueling power. I remember theorycrafting around and it usually gives the general result of who wins a generic 1v1. Basically if you have 2x the HP you have 2x the Time to live and if you have 2x the DPS enemy has 1/2 the TTL so it should work out. Damage + EHP is misleading because high EHP+low dmg or high dmg + low EHP might seem effective but its a terrible indicator of dueling strength. I didn't check out your new numbers but I don't understand why the numbers for the original cases have changed. Change in original numbers is giving a warrior baseline, adding you built that first. Firepower is an interesting stat. I'll chuck that in when i get home. At any rate, I'd agree that you're right about attack speed. Just hard to really quantify it outside of game for a melee... it might not do anything for you in some fights and in others it might win you the fight. Perhaps the way you to go would be to select any arbitrary auto uptime and just run 2 or 3 CD cycles to see difference in DPS. At any rate i have no real trouble getting 4 autos off on Xin... perhaps I'm under valuing AS on him because most melee champs frankly just won't get that many but i can't recall the last time I didn't get a Q knock up in a team fight. I reckon TF would pull pretty far ahead of BC in damage inbetween combos... certainly is probably much stronger for dueling. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
I used to be a cinder/trinity man but not sure now | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
Emax vs Qmax I think depends on game. Q way stronger in fights, E better at farming by a good margin. By the time you have W maxed you usually have a good idea of which be better in the particular game. I don't think the difference between the two is very large though tbh. I think a lot of people just max E because that's what they did before they changed his AS buff on E to be less linear. When rework first came out it was like base 20 with 10% per level or something like that. My preference is Qmax, that's why those damage calcs have Qmax. Ha ha. I also don't really think you need anything after warrior to kill people, which is why i go warrior then either tank or BC if I'm fed. I'm usually fed because you just win every 2v2. I also think warrior>BC>tank gets you a good power curve and is a decent transition that leaves you pretty rankly at 30 minutes and let's you kinda just hit their tank and counter engage his team while he has no armor and you invulnerable unless their carries want to get in melee range but you too tacky to die to frontline. Xin a pretty flexible champ now a days compared to the old days. He used to be hard enrage or bust, but he's a real flexible champ now imo. | ||
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