[Patch 8.7] Irelia Rework Discussion - Page 3

On April 10 2018 04:04 Numy wrote:

It was action packed before as well, tanks sucked outside of Sion and still do.

On April 10 2018 08:10 Jek wrote:

Guess that's why tanks where picked in nearly every game in all regions finals.

On April 09 2018 19:11 M2 wrote:

is conquer an issue? on whom? jax?

On April 12 2018 00:05 Slayer91 wrote:


every game i played jax top lane conqueror gave less damage than aftershock would probably have given
seemed pathetic. against super resist heavy tanks maybe it's good though.

On April 11 2018 23:07 Numy wrote:
So let me get this straight. Tanks are not that strong, they do not have a high pick rate either yet they can completely negate the other top laner with no effort? If this is true then it implies tanks are masters at laning phase but fall off rapidly post laning otherwise they would be the dominant force in league. That doesn't sound right.

If you look at what's been strong historically in top lane this season. GP, Camille, Fiora, Illaoi, Sion, Ornn, Vlad, Kled,panth it paints a weird picture. One where you hear "tanks stonewalling everything making toplane bad" but then they don't have corresponding playrates or winrates or even mastery rates. So what's going on? Cho for instance is one of the easiest to abuse tanks in the early game.

So is this a case of a minor class of heroes that aren't particularly strong having such adverse play patterns that it burns this into peoples memories? It's really interesting why this kind of thing has happened when supporting evidence is just not there. Placebo? Marketing from Hashinshin types?

edit: I wonder if it's playstyles changing while people refuse to change? Do the better players in league at the top just shift the way they play to make their post laning impact highest which means tanks become weaker hence why the evidence isn't there? Is it a self correcting metagame thing?

On April 11 2018 23:07 Numy wrote:
So let me get this straight. Tanks are not that strong, they do not have a high pick rate either yet they can completely negate the other top laner with no effort? If this is true then it implies tanks are masters at laning phase but fall off rapidly post laning otherwise they would be the dominant force in league. That doesn't sound right.

On April 11 2018 23:07 Numy wrote:
If you look at what's been strong historically in top lane this season. GP, Camille, Fiora, Illaoi, Sion, Ornn, Vlad, Kled,panth it paints a weird picture. One where you hear "tanks stonewalling everything making toplane bad" but then they don't have corresponding playrates or winrates or even mastery rates. So what's going on? Cho for instance is one of the easiest to abuse tanks in the early game.

On April 11 2018 23:07 Numy wrote:
So is this a case of a minor class of heroes that aren't particularly strong having such adverse play patterns that it burns this into peoples memories? It's really interesting why this kind of thing has happened when supporting evidence is just not there. Placebo? Marketing from Hashinshin types?

On April 11 2018 23:07 Numy wrote:
edit: I wonder if it's playstyles changing while people refuse to change? Do the better players in league at the top just shift the way they play to make their post laning impact highest which means tanks become weaker hence why the evidence isn't there? Is it a self correcting metagame thing?

On April 12 2018 01:11 loSleb wrote:


Somtimes it would be nice if people actually played the game. When everyone complains the reason they aren't overrepresented could maybe be that only few people enjoy them? Lee Sin is still the most played jungler while he is quite shit.

The problem is not that I cannot play other champions anymore. The problem is that the autofilled toplaner can go Sion top and waveclear all day, maybe even die a few times and he still has decent impact on the teamfights while being braindead. It's very similiar to why the Janna e-girl meme exists you basicly do nothing and still perform decently.

Also about toplane this season being about those champs.
GP was fucking busted at the start (and still is good) and is probably even worse than tanks to play against.
Camille is the one other champion that is not a tank that is picked regularly.
Fiora is fucking terrible and loses almost every game she gets picked.
Illaoi was literally only there to counter tanks(Ornn).
Vlad was pretty much instantly nerfed by removing that gp10 items and nobody plays him after that.
Who even plays Kled lol?

Only other pick there is thats not a tank (also there arent even many more tanks that get picked in comp at least) is Gnar.

What gets picked toplane is so different from what is actually good in Soloq, so many Yasuo, Riven, etc one tricks running around the stats really get fucked by things like that.

If I go ADC/Mid I can't think really of a champion that I would want my autofilled guy on. Meanwhile in Top everyone would be like "go tank".

Toplane being the easiest to gank also makes gold dependent champs even worse and people will flame you if you don't go play a tank when the jungler picks something else.

Tanks being quite strong with 0 resources might be a result of the laneswap meta where champs had to work with 0 farm. It could also be because while everyone complains about tanks people still always want one in their team so as soon as we see metas without them they get buffed back.

On April 12 2018 01:36 JimmiC wrote:
Anyone doing this clash thing this weekend? I'm interested NA top plat last few seasons only gold right now but have not played serious or much, Low plat is fair of my skill level.

On April 12 2018 02:58 Numy wrote:

You know a thought I had reading this was that maybe it's far simplier than any of this. You mentioned Sion there but noone else. Everyone mentions Sion. I mentioned Sion. Is it tanks being strong of tank Sion being insanely strong? Sion is the only tank that's been at the top throughout this season. He's the only relevant tank. He's a monster in Comp play as well. Ornn and Cho aren't particularly great in solo Q, Cho is easily abused and takes awhile to get to his immovable phase, he's situationally a beast which is fine for a hero. Ornn has a stronger laning phase but is far harder to use later.

What I'm trying to get at, is this really a tank issue? If Sion was nerfed right now to the gutter would this conversation exist? I'm not really sure if you trying to take a jab at me for that first line or something else.

On April 14 2018 19:14 loSleb wrote:

Tanks aren't strong, LCK doesn't play tanks, hard lol.

On April 15 2018 12:54 iCanada wrote:
The clash is awesome as fuck.

Also; I actually think building trinity force on Xin Zhao is straight up bad. Everyone thinks its the build, but like... idk man. You actually do just practically as much damage to squishies if you can hit your W with Black cleaver, you're tankier, and you get the same sticking power. All you lose is Attack speed which is kinda whatever on melees.

For shits and giggles, say you are level 11 with just trinity force or just black cleaver. lets assume you get a full Xin rotation off (W + E + R + autoQautoauto) assuming phase rush without celerity / water walking:



With Trinity force you do 85.75 more damage WITHOUT taking into account resistances or armor shred. Realistically, you do ~10% armor shred with cleaver. You also have 150 HP Now you have to consider that your ADC is shooting that thing. On a squishy champ, its very close. Against a tanky ass champion, Cleaver hard out preforms Trinity force.

Thing is, thats pretty damn close in effective combat power on a squishy champ; but you have to consider that junglers average around 200 gold per minute without taking into account starting gold or map objectives; that means you are getting cleaver 733/200 = 3.7 minutes sooner in the game than trinity force. And when you would have trinity you have Cleaver + Cleaver + kindlegem or cleaver + 2 cloth armor. If you get Cleaver & 2 longs swords cleaver actually does 55 damage more.

I think if you just rush Trinity + Steraks then trinity better, but like, I dont think you can build Warrior + Trinity + Steraks and not die immediately.

On April 15 2018 14:01 Amui wrote:

Some of the triforce budget comes from attack speed and movement speed, which are good stats when Q takes several attacks to proc.

That damage also doesn't take into account the extra second or so it takes to do the full combo with cleaver instead of triforce from the attack speed difference.

I would agree that triforce is hard to build out of the jungle unless you're fed or okay with being useless for a while.