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On June 17 2017 21:27 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2017 08:46 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 08:33 Gahlo wrote:
Anybody else thing Shockwave needs a CD or damage nerf? Nope, when Ori is meta, the midlane is healthy. I mean, ori is kind of always meta though. she's been played forever. She's the Lee sin of Mid lane. constantly meta since creation. if she gets a nerf though it'd be something like a 50-100 speed nerf to her command attack ball movement. Make her have to predict better to hit her combos.
That would be the worst possible Nerf. She is already weak to movement speed and dashes. The real reason people are sick of Ori is because Riot foolishly killed Lulu mid and Karma, honestly, is a very poorly designed champion. This has left one real utility mid.
Also, I think they reduced her AA before because people said she was bullying melee too hard. I don't support that if its on the first auto (her AA last hitting shouldn't be affected), if you make Windup have more ticks to ramp up to max, that would work, IMO.
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On June 18 2017 03:28 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2017 21:27 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 17 2017 08:46 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 08:33 Gahlo wrote:
Anybody else thing Shockwave needs a CD or damage nerf? Nope, when Ori is meta, the midlane is healthy. I mean, ori is kind of always meta though. she's been played forever. She's the Lee sin of Mid lane. constantly meta since creation. if she gets a nerf though it'd be something like a 50-100 speed nerf to her command attack ball movement. Make her have to predict better to hit her combos. That would be the worst possible Nerf. She is already weak to movement speed and dashes. The real reason people are sick of Ori is because Riot foolishly killed Lulu mid and Karma, honestly, is a very poorly designed champion. This has left one real utility mid. Also, I think they reduced her AA before because people said she was bullying melee too hard. I don't support that if its on the first auto (her AA last hitting shouldn't be affected), if you make Windup have more ticks to ramp up to max, that would work, IMO.
No, I'm sick of Orianna because she can 2 shot squishies in AOE after 3 items while having good utility. Buff Karma and Lulu and they'll have good utility, but nowhere near the damage of Orianna.
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On June 18 2017 03:28 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2017 21:27 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 17 2017 08:46 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 08:33 Gahlo wrote:
Anybody else thing Shockwave needs a CD or damage nerf? Nope, when Ori is meta, the midlane is healthy. I mean, ori is kind of always meta though. she's been played forever. She's the Lee sin of Mid lane. constantly meta since creation. if she gets a nerf though it'd be something like a 50-100 speed nerf to her command attack ball movement. Make her have to predict better to hit her combos. That would be the worst possible Nerf. She is already weak to movement speed and dashes. The real reason people are sick of Ori is because Riot foolishly killed Lulu mid and Karma, honestly, is a very poorly designed champion. This has left one real utility mid. Also, I think they reduced her AA before because people said she was bullying melee too hard. I don't support that if its on the first auto (her AA last hitting shouldn't be affected), if you make Windup have more ticks to ramp up to max, that would work, IMO.
I mean.. i'm not exactly hiding my desire for a return to Season 3 gameplay. But i see nothing wrong with exaggerating strengths and weaknesses. it makes more interesting characters than just flattening everything out.
As an example of exaggerating strengths and weakness I'd prefer if all shields got the locket treatment, where they decayed over their duration, even if they get a nudge up in values by 10-20%, rather than have them just be king with little downside.
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On June 18 2017 04:41 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2017 03:28 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 21:27 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 17 2017 08:46 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 08:33 Gahlo wrote:
Anybody else thing Shockwave needs a CD or damage nerf? Nope, when Ori is meta, the midlane is healthy. I mean, ori is kind of always meta though. she's been played forever. She's the Lee sin of Mid lane. constantly meta since creation. if she gets a nerf though it'd be something like a 50-100 speed nerf to her command attack ball movement. Make her have to predict better to hit her combos. That would be the worst possible Nerf. She is already weak to movement speed and dashes. The real reason people are sick of Ori is because Riot foolishly killed Lulu mid and Karma, honestly, is a very poorly designed champion. This has left one real utility mid. Also, I think they reduced her AA before because people said she was bullying melee too hard. I don't support that if its on the first auto (her AA last hitting shouldn't be affected), if you make Windup have more ticks to ramp up to max, that would work, IMO. No, I'm sick of Orianna because she can 2 shot squishies in AOE after 3 items while having good utility. Buff Karma and Lulu and they'll have good utility, but nowhere near the damage of Orianna.
But nobody wants to watch Karma or Lulu mid. Whenever they're meta people complain about boring gameplay not only because these champions aren't very flashy but also because they happen to be popular when superboring 'protect the adc' comps become dominant.
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On June 18 2017 05:48 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2017 04:41 Gahlo wrote:On June 18 2017 03:28 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 21:27 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 17 2017 08:46 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 08:33 Gahlo wrote:
Anybody else thing Shockwave needs a CD or damage nerf? Nope, when Ori is meta, the midlane is healthy. I mean, ori is kind of always meta though. she's been played forever. She's the Lee sin of Mid lane. constantly meta since creation. if she gets a nerf though it'd be something like a 50-100 speed nerf to her command attack ball movement. Make her have to predict better to hit her combos. That would be the worst possible Nerf. She is already weak to movement speed and dashes. The real reason people are sick of Ori is because Riot foolishly killed Lulu mid and Karma, honestly, is a very poorly designed champion. This has left one real utility mid. Also, I think they reduced her AA before because people said she was bullying melee too hard. I don't support that if its on the first auto (her AA last hitting shouldn't be affected), if you make Windup have more ticks to ramp up to max, that would work, IMO. No, I'm sick of Orianna because she can 2 shot squishies in AOE after 3 items while having good utility. Buff Karma and Lulu and they'll have good utility, but nowhere near the damage of Orianna. But nobody wants to watch Karma or Lulu mid. Whenever they're meta people complain about boring gameplay not only because these champions aren't very flashy but also because they happen to be popular when superboring 'protect the adc' comps become dominant.
It's more my response to Ori only being good because they are nerfed.
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I like Ori as a champion in League of Legends. Maybe they could nerf her E a little bit, but I still think she's fine.
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On June 18 2017 05:59 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2017 05:48 Sent. wrote:On June 18 2017 04:41 Gahlo wrote:On June 18 2017 03:28 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 21:27 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 17 2017 08:46 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 08:33 Gahlo wrote:
Anybody else thing Shockwave needs a CD or damage nerf? Nope, when Ori is meta, the midlane is healthy. I mean, ori is kind of always meta though. she's been played forever. She's the Lee sin of Mid lane. constantly meta since creation. if she gets a nerf though it'd be something like a 50-100 speed nerf to her command attack ball movement. Make her have to predict better to hit her combos. That would be the worst possible Nerf. She is already weak to movement speed and dashes. The real reason people are sick of Ori is because Riot foolishly killed Lulu mid and Karma, honestly, is a very poorly designed champion. This has left one real utility mid. Also, I think they reduced her AA before because people said she was bullying melee too hard. I don't support that if its on the first auto (her AA last hitting shouldn't be affected), if you make Windup have more ticks to ramp up to max, that would work, IMO. No, I'm sick of Orianna because she can 2 shot squishies in AOE after 3 items while having good utility. Buff Karma and Lulu and they'll have good utility, but nowhere near the damage of Orianna. But nobody wants to watch Karma or Lulu mid. Whenever they're meta people complain about boring gameplay not only because these champions aren't very flashy but also because they happen to be popular when superboring 'protect the adc' comps become dominant. It's more my response to Ori only being good because they are nerfed.
Ori has nowhere the utility of Lulu, she is as much like Anivia as she is like Lulu, she's a hybrid. That she is the "go to" supportive mage that gets farm means that category is in somewhat a rough spot. On top of that, her killing squishies with a RWQ combo at 3 items should bring no one tears. Her mana costs are high compared to other mages so she has low lane pressure early compared to a Syndra, Cassio, or Taliah so you should be ahead. Plus, actually hitting that combo at the 3 item point should involve 2 champions and an offensive flash (that the backline should still be able to flash out of). Complaining about Ori killing backlines is like complaining about Taliah isolating your ADC from the rest of the team with her wall. Yes its possible, but its on you, no amount of Ori skill can put you in that situation, its just a punish.
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On June 18 2017 08:58 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2017 05:59 Gahlo wrote:On June 18 2017 05:48 Sent. wrote:On June 18 2017 04:41 Gahlo wrote:On June 18 2017 03:28 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 21:27 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 17 2017 08:46 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 08:33 Gahlo wrote:
Anybody else thing Shockwave needs a CD or damage nerf? Nope, when Ori is meta, the midlane is healthy. I mean, ori is kind of always meta though. she's been played forever. She's the Lee sin of Mid lane. constantly meta since creation. if she gets a nerf though it'd be something like a 50-100 speed nerf to her command attack ball movement. Make her have to predict better to hit her combos. That would be the worst possible Nerf. She is already weak to movement speed and dashes. The real reason people are sick of Ori is because Riot foolishly killed Lulu mid and Karma, honestly, is a very poorly designed champion. This has left one real utility mid. Also, I think they reduced her AA before because people said she was bullying melee too hard. I don't support that if its on the first auto (her AA last hitting shouldn't be affected), if you make Windup have more ticks to ramp up to max, that would work, IMO. No, I'm sick of Orianna because she can 2 shot squishies in AOE after 3 items while having good utility. Buff Karma and Lulu and they'll have good utility, but nowhere near the damage of Orianna. But nobody wants to watch Karma or Lulu mid. Whenever they're meta people complain about boring gameplay not only because these champions aren't very flashy but also because they happen to be popular when superboring 'protect the adc' comps become dominant. It's more my response to Ori only being good because they are nerfed. Ori has nowhere the utility of Lulu, she is as much like Anivia as she is like Lulu, she's a hybrid. That she is the "go to" supportive mage that gets farm means that category is in somewhat a rough spot. On top of that, her killing squishies with a RWQ combo at 3 items should bring no one tears. Her mana costs are high compared to other mages so she has low lane pressure early compared to a Syndra, Cassio, or Taliah so you should be ahead. Plus, actually hitting that combo at the 3 item point should involve 2 champions and an offensive flash (that the backline should still be able to flash out of). Complaining about Ori killing backlines is like complaining about Taliah isolating your ADC from the rest of the team with her wall. Yes its possible, but its on you, no amount of Ori skill can put you in that situation, its just a punish.
Taliyah doesn't have the ability to speed up her teammates or give them shields that also provides resistances. The fact that she does a bunch of damage isn't a problem. The fact that she has great utility isn't a problem. It's that she has both.
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Yea, again you are avoiding the reliability and avoidability of her damage. If hitting Ori QW's was as easy as Syndra QW, then that might be a concern. Hitting a RWQ on Ori at 3 items on a backliner means that backliner was extremely out of position, as out of position as him getting separated from his tanks by a Taliah Wall (and both are equally flashable).
Also, you massively overstate how much utility Ori has. There is a reason Lulu was preferred as a carry in protect comps for over a year (and still is almost required for most of them from the support position) and it is because Ori's E is decent (but she needs it herself because of her short range and she needs to put it on frontliners to hope to damage the enemy backline), and W speed is nothing to write home about. If Lulu could 1 shot the backline with Q at standard item timings (or Janna Q, a quicker Morg W, etc) she would jump Ori immediately.
Ori's is much more like Lux & Anivia than champs with real utility. In terms of utility she is closer to Syndra than Lulu, to be honest.
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Oriannas main strength lies in her ability to put out consistent damage with QW and also be an AoE CC+Burst threat with ERWQ or QRWQE combos. Her main weakness is having short range has trouble dealing with people diving on her as she tries to position herself/the ball for combos.
I wouldn't say orianna has too much utility, I never really felt it having that huge an impact. I feel like removing or nerfing it would be the wrong move, as champions who are versatile are more fun and interesting to play, doing something like nerfing the radius of her R or range of Q or her damage makes more sense.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On June 18 2017 19:51 Slayer91 wrote:
I wouldn't say orianna has too much utility, I never really felt it having that huge an impact. I feel like removing or nerfing it would be the wrong move, as champions who are versatile are more fun and interesting to play, doing something like nerfing the radius of her R or range of Q or her damage makes more sense.
I think this is exactly why she's more likely to have her utility nerfed. Nerfing what a champion is good at makes for boring champions. Nerfing what a champion doesn't need to be good at is better. Like how Fizz should never, ever have his E nerfed.
At the end of the day, though, whenever mid lane is balanced is when Orianna comes out. I don't think she's ever been problematically strong - has there ever been a meta where Orianna shoved out all other picks mid lane?
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United States37500 Posts
Ori hasnt shoved out other Mid picks like Syndra or Azir of past but she's been omnipresent in the meta since like S3. I'm trying to think of a time in Korea when Ori wasn't considered good and I'm drawing a blank. Personally I think she's fine.
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On June 19 2017 04:20 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2017 19:51 Slayer91 wrote:
I wouldn't say orianna has too much utility, I never really felt it having that huge an impact. I feel like removing or nerfing it would be the wrong move, as champions who are versatile are more fun and interesting to play, doing something like nerfing the radius of her R or range of Q or her damage makes more sense. I think this is exactly why she's more likely to have her utility nerfed. Nerfing what a champion is good at makes for boring champions. Nerfing what a champion doesn't need to be good at is better. Like how Fizz should never, ever have his E nerfed. At the end of the day, though, whenever mid lane is balanced is when Orianna comes out. I don't think she's ever been problematically strong - has there ever been a meta where Orianna shoved out all other picks mid lane?
No it's the opposite. Having champions whose strengths are too binary is boring, that's why riot is avoiding it like the plague and remaking champions to have more options and more counterplay, and generally are more versatile.
e.g getting rid of point and click CC because those champions are always just good for their point and click CC and they can't have anything else too strong.
Typically champions need to be versatile to see the light of day in pro play because otherwise your pick can just be countered.
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[QUOTE]On June 19 2017 04:20 GrandInquisitor wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 18 2017 19:51 Slayer91 wrote:
has there ever been a meta where Orianna shoved out all other picks mid lane? [/QUOTE]
Right before her AA got nerfed in Season... 6(???) she was becoming pretty oppressive on ladder, but LCS never got too crazy I don't think.
That's all I can think of.
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Is it just me, or is flex queue match making just completely random? I've been playing on my smurf, where I recently placed plat 4, and am getting around 28 LP per win. One game I'll be against all silvers, while my team has a couple of diamonds. Then I'll be against a team that has a challenger and D1, but also two silvers. Then I'll be against a whole team of plats. Like, there's zero consistency.
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On June 19 2017 05:55 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2017 04:20 GrandInquisitor wrote:On June 18 2017 19:51 Slayer91 wrote:
I wouldn't say orianna has too much utility, I never really felt it having that huge an impact. I feel like removing or nerfing it would be the wrong move, as champions who are versatile are more fun and interesting to play, doing something like nerfing the radius of her R or range of Q or her damage makes more sense. I think this is exactly why she's more likely to have her utility nerfed. Nerfing what a champion is good at makes for boring champions. Nerfing what a champion doesn't need to be good at is better. Like how Fizz should never, ever have his E nerfed. At the end of the day, though, whenever mid lane is balanced is when Orianna comes out. I don't think she's ever been problematically strong - has there ever been a meta where Orianna shoved out all other picks mid lane? No it's the opposite. Having champions whose strengths are too binary is boring, that's why riot is avoiding it like the plague and remaking champions to have more options and more counterplay, and generally are more versatile. e.g getting rid of point and click CC because those champions are always just good for their point and click CC and they can't have anything else too strong. Typically champions need to be versatile to see the light of day in pro play because otherwise your pick can just be countered.
I agree. One thing a lot of the assassin reworks did was make them unplayable unless they were totally OP because they lack the kit diversity of a Syndra (who also has the stun, lane control, and blue control) or Leblanc who has waveclear and poke and assassination. Its a lot of "I'm rock, and I'm trusting you not to pick paper". Which, also, IMO is part of this Orianna hate in this thread. A lot of popular picks are skill matchups vs. Ori, but a lot of that "skill" is your jungler's skill, because taking a 1/1/1 Zed/Ahri/Yasuo out of the laning phase against a 1/1/1 Ori is a loss, but Ori can definitely wall those champions 1v1. Its just like why people hate facing Maokai or Malphite or Nasus toplane, because you have to make plays against the Malphite, but you can't (usually) make them on your own, and everyone hates teamwork.
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anyone who can build a catalyst item is really difficult to lane against as an assassin
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dunno what kind of people those are since I love facing maokai malphite nasus
such easy lanes to counterpick / play against
as long as you don't fuck up the team can usually handle them in teamfights
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On June 19 2017 14:29 dsyxelic wrote:
dunno what kind of people those are since I love facing maokai malphite nasus
such easy lanes to counterpick / play against
as long as you don't fuck up the team can usually handle them in teamfights
Thats not the premise. The premise is people like playing (the midlane equivalent) of champions that cant dominate 1v1s vs. Malphite, but pick them anyways, then complain about him dominating teamfights when he hits 4 man ults.
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EPT
