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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Why would you take a point of vampirism on K'Z?
Damage is generally just better
Let's say I deal about 10k dmg to jungle monsters first clear, most of it single target. I heal 40hp off of that one clear. If I just take 1 less hit from a big monster during the clear thanks to the extra damage, and that's not unrealistic, NT is already as good as if not better.
Unless again, you can show skipping one point in NT doesn't bring any cost at all on first clear AND you think lf+sv is better later on in the game. You have to bring something concrete.
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I can't show that it does or doesn't nor am I going to bother testing it
It's my best attempt at justifying why a majority of pros do it. They may or may not be wrong but I cba to prove it. You may if you'd like, wasn't intending to make it sound like I was giving a definitive advice of 'take 1 point of vampirism on khazix'. Especially since like you said NT is so good on him.
edit:
Scratch that, seems most pros have also figured out how good NT is on Kha that most of them now skip Vampirism.
http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Khazix
Only notable name that hasn't is Peanut with 4/1 split.
Usually just takes a while for one of the analysts to math it out.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Idk, I was watching LCS pretty consistently and everyone used 1/4 there, so that's where my data about usage was from
I wasn't really demanding that you do the testing, just asserting that the line of reasoning used for midlane (which is already questionable) isn't at all applicable in the jungle
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I agree that in 99% of cases 5/0 or 0/5 is optimal, but mixed yellow runes is a bit different because you have diminishing returns there, and you don't have that with these masteries.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On February 12 2017 23:49 Fildun wrote:
I agree that in 99% of cases 5/0 or 0/5 is optimal, but mixed yellow runes is a bit different because you have diminishing returns there, and you don't have that with these masteries.
mixed yellows, at least in the example I gave, is because you take as many armor yellows as you need to do your first clear, rest scaling HP because scaling HP is gud
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On February 13 2017 00:24 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2017 23:49 Fildun wrote:
I agree that in 99% of cases 5/0 or 0/5 is optimal, but mixed yellow runes is a bit different because you have diminishing returns there, and you don't have that with these masteries. mixed yellows, at least in the example I gave, is because you take as many armor yellows as you need to do your first clear, rest scaling HP because scaling HP is gud
yeah I misread your post, thought you were arguing against that as well
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On February 12 2017 20:42 Scip wrote:
Idk, I was watching LCS pretty consistently and everyone used 1/4 there, so that's where my data about usage was from
I wasn't really demanding that you do the testing, just asserting that the line of reasoning used for midlane (which is already questionable) isn't at all applicable in the jungle
yea my bad lol misunderstood
I just looked through the last few khazix games worldwide (mostly NA/KR in the last 2 days) and it was pretty varied.
several 5/0, 4/1, and 3/2
machete/talisman start and even evolve order (Q E W, W E Q, Q W E) as well
so it seems like people are still experimenting/figuring out things
while digging through rune setups for some of my supports I've also realized that pretty much everyone runs things differently. so yeah we're pretty far from optimization I think.
would love to have insight on how these pro players choose their setups. if its an analyst giving the feedback, if the pro maths it out himself, or just chooses on his 'gut feeling'
some seem to just be lazy as fk with their setups. in particular I noticed bang is always late to trends and sometimes just does plain bad setups
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That probably depends on the team and players. I'm 100% sure that a team like SKT has in depth rune analysis somewhere that includes calculations, with some theory crafting either from the player or an analyst. I imagine that other teams with less supportive people won't do the same unless the player finds it meaningful.
in particular I noticed bang is always late to trends and sometimes just does plain bad setups
Oh wow, that's kind of surprising, maybe I am wrong... But again, I can't imagine SKT doesn't go through runes before major series or tournaments at least once. It's one of the easiest advantages to obtain, likewise shitty rune setups lose you early game.
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On February 13 2017 04:58 DarkCore wrote:That probably depends on the team and players. I'm 100% sure that a team like SKT has in depth rune analysis somewhere that includes calculations, with some theory crafting either from the player or an analyst. I imagine that other teams with less supportive people won't do the same unless the player finds it meaningful. Show nested quote +in particular I noticed bang is always late to trends and sometimes just does plain bad setups Oh wow, that's kind of surprising, maybe I am wrong... But again, I can't imagine SKT doesn't go through runes before major series or tournaments at least once. It's one of the easiest advantages to obtain, likewise shitty rune setups lose you early game.
idk he catches on eventually but seems to be more stubborn with the older setups for a bit longer
like a week behind everyone.
overall it prob doesn't matter much especially for big tournaments/playoffs since they have a lot of time to extensively test out things whereas during the regular season they are just non-stop playing games every few days or so and don't have as much time to test in between stage matches.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Yea, and now Inori is using 5 in vampirism, lul. Also using mix of flat and scaling cdr for 10% at lvl18. Seems pretty questionable.
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not to mention the small setup differences give you one or two auto advantages at best and bang is probably getting free autos on his lane all the time. Its pretty inconsequential
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On February 13 2017 06:28 Scip wrote:
Yea, and now Inori is using 5 in vampirism, lul. Also using mix of flat and scaling cdr for 10% at lvl18. Seems pretty questionable.
isn't cdr okay vs low magic damage teamcomps?
i recall it was typically some form of mr vs magic damage and cdr vs lower amounts
can't think of any other useful glyphs for k6
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On February 13 2017 11:13 dsyxelic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2017 06:28 Scip wrote:
Yea, and now Inori is using 5 in vampirism, lul. Also using mix of flat and scaling cdr for 10% at lvl18. Seems pretty questionable. isn't cdr okay vs low magic damage teamcomps? i recall it was typically some form of mr vs magic damage and cdr vs lower amounts can't think of any other useful glyphs for k6
I use flat CDR myself, I just doubt the value of scaling cd. You pretty much never hit lvl18 regardless imo. There's actually another thing to consider, and that is that if you play a champion enough, you get a really good feel for cooldowns, but only at certain values. When I play Olaf, I have pretty good feel for what 7.5%, 17.5%, 27.5% and 37.5% CDR feels like. I think that the advantage you *might* get from being 40% CDR at lvl18 could actually be outweighed by the fact that your CDR changes smoothly over the course of the game, which makes it more difficult to play. Although the difference of 3% might be too small to notice, idk.
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On February 13 2017 11:58 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2017 11:13 dsyxelic wrote:On February 13 2017 06:28 Scip wrote:
Yea, and now Inori is using 5 in vampirism, lul. Also using mix of flat and scaling cdr for 10% at lvl18. Seems pretty questionable. isn't cdr okay vs low magic damage teamcomps? i recall it was typically some form of mr vs magic damage and cdr vs lower amounts can't think of any other useful glyphs for k6 I use flat CDR myself, I just doubt the value of scaling cd. You pretty much never hit lvl18 regardless imo. There's actually another thing to consider, and that is that if you play a champion enough, you get a really good feel for cooldowns, but only at certain values. When I play Olaf, I have pretty good feel for what 7.5%, 17.5%, 27.5% and 37.5% CDR feels like. I think that the advantage you *might* get from being 40% CDR at lvl18 could actually be outweighed by the fact that your CDR changes smoothly over the course of the game, which makes it more difficult to play. Although the difference of 3% might be too small to notice, idk.
ohhh you meant flat vs scaling cdr
yeah I agree flat cdr should generally always be better for jungling
though something I've always wondered about is when you take the MR
I feel like I go CDR a vast majority of the time and can't really tell when MR is appropriate unless its super obvious like rumble top elise jg mid syndra zyra sup
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I think people go Mres when they plan on going BC+Maw+Warriors, as that gives 40% cdr by itself. I gotta admit, I'm not convinced by BC as an item on K'Z at all. The lethality items seem to make more sense to me, but I haven't done the math, might be that BC is better.
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So what exactly did Riot patch to kill lane swap and did they revert any of these changes? I read somewhere they change the hp/armor of certain towers?
If you know exactly which patches had these changes, you can just link the patch notes. Patch note reading is a habit.
As an outsider, I always had the impression that Riot enforced the lane setup quite a bit (even though they say they dont).
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On February 13 2017 13:31 Reson wrote:
So what exactly did Riot patch to kill lane swap and did they revert any of these changes? I read somewhere they change the hp/armor of certain towers?
If you know exactly which patches had these changes, you can just link the patch notes. Patch note reading is a habit.
As an outsider, I always had the impression that Riot enforced the lane setup quite a bit (even though they say they dont).
top tower is harder to kill than bot tower. therefore if you lane swap you lose the tower trade instantly
the patch this happened is here
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-615-notes
"REMOVED MORTIFIED Fortification’s damage reduction no longer applies to bottom lane turrets"
they don't really enforce lane setups. it just happens to be that there is always an optimal way of distributing gold, xp & applying pressure on the map that has lead to certain roles favoring certain positions `
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On February 13 2017 14:00 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2017 13:31 Reson wrote:
So what exactly did Riot patch to kill lane swap and did they revert any of these changes? I read somewhere they change the hp/armor of certain towers?
If you know exactly which patches had these changes, you can just link the patch notes. Patch note reading is a habit.
As an outsider, I always had the impression that Riot enforced the lane setup quite a bit (even though they say they dont). top tower is harder to kill than bot tower. therefore if you lane swap you lose the tower trade instantly the patch this happened is here http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-615-notes"REMOVED MORTIFIED Fortification’s damage reduction no longer applies to bottom lane turrets" they don't really enforce lane setups. it just happens to be that there is always an optimal way of distributing gold, xp & applying pressure on the map that has lead to certain roles favoring certain positions `
Also they made up "1st tower" gold. So losing the lanswap tempo war is really bad. You lose extra gold and probably a free dragon.
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And normally losing the tempo war was really bad.
Games were won and lost based on being 20s ahead in a lane swap.The tower changes put the team that went swapless 40s ahead and gave them free Drake or the ability to save their top tower.
At the pro level that was a death sentence for ever lane swapping.
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United States11393 Posts
On February 13 2017 13:31 Reson wrote:
So what exactly did Riot patch to kill lane swap and did they revert any of these changes? I read somewhere they change the hp/armor of certain towers?
If you know exactly which patches had these changes, you can just link the patch notes. Patch note reading is a habit.
As an outsider, I always had the impression that Riot enforced the lane setup quite a bit (even though they say they dont).
You still see some lane swaps nowadays. For example, you will see teams swap their bottom lane to top really early on vs a shen.
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EPT
