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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 13 2017 13:23 Scip wrote:
I think people go Mres when they plan on going BC+Maw+Warriors, as that gives 40% cdr by itself. I gotta admit, I'm not convinced by BC as an item on K'Z at all. The lethality items seem to make more sense to me, but I haven't done the math, might be that BC is better.
Given how strong Lethality items are right now there's definitely no way BC is better. Every one of the Lethality items is really good on Kha: Ghostblade's movespeed is great on him, Edge of Night is disgusting on every champion that remotely cares about AD and spell shields, and he's one of the few champions that can proc the Duskblade passive multiple times in a teamfight.
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cleaver is only built because its a broken item in general, not because its optimal.
When a % item is being RUSHED, it's probably stupidly broken but Riot has always thought on a different wavelength then me so what do I know.
At least its getting a slight change this patch although I dont think it will help at all. It will just lose viability slightly on some champions and make others more tanky/stronger with it.
A dueling ad item that counters other dueling ads can never be healthy.
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On February 14 2017 01:39 VayneAuthority wrote:
cleaver is only built because its a broken item in general, not because its optimal.
When a % item is being RUSHED, it's probably stupidly broken but Riot has always thought on a different wavelength then me so what do I know.
At least its getting a slight change this patch although I dont think it will help at all. It will just lose viability slightly on some champions and make others more tanky/stronger with it.
A dueling ad item that counters other dueling ads can never be healthy.
Not really. If you're a durable top laner, it's one of those items that gives you just enough offense before needing to tank up. If your more of a skirmisher like Fiora or aggressive junglers, it gives you a spot of defense without having to completely sell out of your damage. If you're a support like MF, it gives you an easy way to spread debuffs to your opponents to assist your carries, who might not have the itemization to deal with tanks and pick up the Lethality for less durable targets.
It doesn't counter other dueling ADs because that's only done, as stats are provided, if they build a bunch of armor. But no dueling AD does that because there's no AD/Armor item in the game.
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On February 14 2017 02:13 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2017 01:39 VayneAuthority wrote:
cleaver is only built because its a broken item in general, not because its optimal.
When a % item is being RUSHED, it's probably stupidly broken but Riot has always thought on a different wavelength then me so what do I know.
At least its getting a slight change this patch although I dont think it will help at all. It will just lose viability slightly on some champions and make others more tanky/stronger with it.
A dueling ad item that counters other dueling ads can never be healthy. Not really. If you're a durable top laner, it's one of those items that gives you just enough offense before needing to tank up. If your more of a skirmisher like Fiora or aggressive junglers, it gives you a spot of defense without having to completely sell out of your damage. If you're a support like MF, it gives you an easy way to spread debuffs to your opponents to assist your carries, who might not have the itemization to deal with tanks and pick up the Lethality for less durable targets. It doesn't counter other dueling ADs because that's only done, as stats are provided, if they build a bunch of armor. But no dueling AD does that because there's no AD/Armor item in the game.
you realize that top lane is a perpetual duel by nature of the role right? I'm not talking about riven and fiora when I say duelists, this is just top lane in general because its such a stat check lane to assert position over them.
Even with just base armor by level and tabis black cleaver is giving decent returns for all the other stats it gives. It is simply overloaded.
Not to mention it makes any tank/juggernaut vs cleaver builder extremely linear. Oh nice they dont have cleaver yet,I can possibly out duel. Oh olaf/darius/riven/fiora/etc finished cleaver, guess ill sit at my tower now as nasus/trundle/malphite/etc
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On February 14 2017 03:01 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2017 02:13 Gahlo wrote:On February 14 2017 01:39 VayneAuthority wrote:
cleaver is only built because its a broken item in general, not because its optimal.
When a % item is being RUSHED, it's probably stupidly broken but Riot has always thought on a different wavelength then me so what do I know.
At least its getting a slight change this patch although I dont think it will help at all. It will just lose viability slightly on some champions and make others more tanky/stronger with it.
A dueling ad item that counters other dueling ads can never be healthy. Not really. If you're a durable top laner, it's one of those items that gives you just enough offense before needing to tank up. If your more of a skirmisher like Fiora or aggressive junglers, it gives you a spot of defense without having to completely sell out of your damage. If you're a support like MF, it gives you an easy way to spread debuffs to your opponents to assist your carries, who might not have the itemization to deal with tanks and pick up the Lethality for less durable targets. It doesn't counter other dueling ADs because that's only done, as stats are provided, if they build a bunch of armor. But no dueling AD does that because there's no AD/Armor item in the game. you realize that top lane is a perpetual duel by nature of the role right? I'm not talking about riven and fiora when I say duelists, this is just top lane in general because its such a stat check lane to assert position over them. Even with just base armor by level and tabis black cleaver is giving decent returns for all the other stats it gives. It is simply overloaded.
Top lane is never a 1v1 scenario unless the players in the game are bad.
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On February 14 2017 03:03 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2017 03:01 VayneAuthority wrote:On February 14 2017 02:13 Gahlo wrote:On February 14 2017 01:39 VayneAuthority wrote:
cleaver is only built because its a broken item in general, not because its optimal.
When a % item is being RUSHED, it's probably stupidly broken but Riot has always thought on a different wavelength then me so what do I know.
At least its getting a slight change this patch although I dont think it will help at all. It will just lose viability slightly on some champions and make others more tanky/stronger with it.
A dueling ad item that counters other dueling ads can never be healthy. Not really. If you're a durable top laner, it's one of those items that gives you just enough offense before needing to tank up. If your more of a skirmisher like Fiora or aggressive junglers, it gives you a spot of defense without having to completely sell out of your damage. If you're a support like MF, it gives you an easy way to spread debuffs to your opponents to assist your carries, who might not have the itemization to deal with tanks and pick up the Lethality for less durable targets. It doesn't counter other dueling ADs because that's only done, as stats are provided, if they build a bunch of armor. But no dueling AD does that because there's no AD/Armor item in the game. you realize that top lane is a perpetual duel by nature of the role right? I'm not talking about riven and fiora when I say duelists, this is just top lane in general because its such a stat check lane to assert position over them. Even with just base armor by level and tabis black cleaver is giving decent returns for all the other stats it gives. It is simply overloaded. Top lane is never a 1v1 scenario unless the players in the game are bad.
ah yes I forgot a gold/plat player like yourself (cant remember exactly) is the authority on top lane xD Mighty fine players in that elo.
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On February 14 2017 03:13 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2017 03:03 Gahlo wrote:On February 14 2017 03:01 VayneAuthority wrote:On February 14 2017 02:13 Gahlo wrote:On February 14 2017 01:39 VayneAuthority wrote:
cleaver is only built because its a broken item in general, not because its optimal.
When a % item is being RUSHED, it's probably stupidly broken but Riot has always thought on a different wavelength then me so what do I know.
At least its getting a slight change this patch although I dont think it will help at all. It will just lose viability slightly on some champions and make others more tanky/stronger with it.
A dueling ad item that counters other dueling ads can never be healthy. Not really. If you're a durable top laner, it's one of those items that gives you just enough offense before needing to tank up. If your more of a skirmisher like Fiora or aggressive junglers, it gives you a spot of defense without having to completely sell out of your damage. If you're a support like MF, it gives you an easy way to spread debuffs to your opponents to assist your carries, who might not have the itemization to deal with tanks and pick up the Lethality for less durable targets. It doesn't counter other dueling ADs because that's only done, as stats are provided, if they build a bunch of armor. But no dueling AD does that because there's no AD/Armor item in the game. you realize that top lane is a perpetual duel by nature of the role right? I'm not talking about riven and fiora when I say duelists, this is just top lane in general because its such a stat check lane to assert position over them. Even with just base armor by level and tabis black cleaver is giving decent returns for all the other stats it gives. It is simply overloaded. Top lane is never a 1v1 scenario unless the players in the game are bad. ah yes I forgot a gold/plat player like yourself (cant remember exactly) is the authority on top lane xD Mighty fine players in that elo.
Show me a top laner that plays like junglers don't exist and I will show you a bad top laner at their level.
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Hey, have you heard about this thing called Creep Score? I heard it's pretty useful to have.
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On February 14 2017 06:26 Fildun wrote:
Hey, have you heard about this thing called Creep Score? I heard it's pretty useful to have.
There's a middle ground between playing like a bitch and playing like somebody with the map awareness of a blind fish.
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Discussion is kind of derailling I feel. First it was about BC on khazix, and it turned into the nature of toplane?
Noob opinion incoming (attack this pls, so I learn) :
Although top is of course not purely 1v1, in the sense that teleport, midlane roaming and jungle presence play a role, I do feel that interactions with the lane opponent are the main focus of interactions. For example, if a jungler comes to gank, the goal generally is to give the toplaner an advantage in the lane, translating in roaming possibilities, denying enemy farm, information gathering, pressure on obejctives etc. The 1v1 still remains relevant, as these advantages only materialize if the enemy toplaner actually feels the pressure when no one if around (in my perception, that's where the entire concept of split pushing comes from). Note that this does not necessarily changes when tanks occupy the toplane. See for example the game when impact played camille vs poppy and couldn't put on any pressure.
I can understand VayneAuthority when he says that BC is broken, as it dominates all AD-match ups. As someone who does not build that item (or is severely behind), you instantly lose the beforementioned pressure and are forced to become the 'bitch' of the team.
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i think the main point is whether black cleaver is effective vs people who don't want to rush tank armor items (that's essentially where the dispute came from)
It doesn't counter other dueling ADs because that's only done, as stats are provided, if they build a bunch of armor. But no dueling AD does that because there's no AD/Armor item in the game.
I'd say it is effective. By the time a person finishes black cleaver the enemy generally has at the minimum, 50 armor (scaling from levels and flat armor runes vs ad opponents is standard) to upwards of 90 (ninja tabi the most popular boots + better scaling)
also the MS and/or CDR gives such a huge powerspike in matchups between these toplane duelists. i start to shit my pants when the darius comes back with a bc.
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United States11393 Posts
On February 14 2017 09:03 dsyxelic wrote:
i think the main point is whether black cleaver is effective vs people who don't want to rush tank armor items (that's essentially where the dispute came from)
On some champs like fiora, you can just go triforce instead when other team is pretty squishy. It makes your splitting a lot stronger too.
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Haven't been able to play much League on this patch but I mucked around in Sanbox mode (practice tool) for like 20 minutes. Super fun and enjoyable. Obviously, there's stuff to work on but they got the basic stuff in there.
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i have been playing a lot of kha6 on my smurf and have been building warriors>gb>edge>bc just seems better build path and I don't think the extra burst on dusk is worth it over bc just being a much better item.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
The mastery nerfs on PBE are very interesting. Looks like they are reducing damage across the board. And RIP Precision, the most hidden OP mastery in the game.
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On February 15 2017 01:44 GrandInquisitor wrote:
The mastery nerfs on PBE are very interesting. Looks like they are reducing damage across the board. And RIP Precision, the most hidden OP mastery in the game.
I don't get it, you make an assassin update then slowly mitigate damage to the point that only a few of those assassins can even assassinate any more (well like blow-up assassinate)?
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United States11393 Posts
On February 15 2017 03:15 lilwisper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 01:44 GrandInquisitor wrote:
The mastery nerfs on PBE are very interesting. Looks like they are reducing damage across the board. And RIP Precision, the most hidden OP mastery in the game.
I don't get it, you make an assassin update then slowly mitigate damage to the point that only a few of those assassins can even assassinate any more (well like blow-up assassinate)?
Tanks get nerfed by it too. They were getting so much extra damage (ie Maokai) through masteries like Battle Trance
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The only class that truly benefits from it isn't restrained to one lane, and that is sustain champs. They still suffer from morello's and mortal reminder being in every game but damage reduction across the board will help them immensely. Champs like mundo and vlad were in a horrid spot. Of course by proxy it also benefits warlords adcs and heals/shields.
I'd say its a pretty definite buff to bot lane and a buff to certain champs in top lane.
nerf to mid and jungle.
Which seems about right, surprisingly. The free 5% junglers were getting to clear was actually annoying, I did not like being forced to take that mastery to compete in the jungle.
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EPT
