I still hold that Ryze's Q being so shitty is a big problem for his kit. Pre-Rework-to-the-rework its "utility" was that it could bypass tanks and you could simply drop it on a person's head even if they were behind minions, like an AA that didnt draw aggro, or just CS anything you wanted. Now it really is just mystic shot with no on-hit effects.

With such a shitty Q the rest of his kit really needs to do work, so hes gone through the infinite root stage, the super damage burst, the tanky bursts, etc.

Q needs an identity if they are going to keep it as his bread and butter spell. I mean, his E is an atrocity of a skill as well. Its just like, "oh, right, better press E it does...something"!

Gahlo

United States35174 Posts

July 29 2016 21:17 GMT

#42

On July 29 2016 21:02 Jek wrote:
Has there ever been a champion with lower win ratio than the new Ryze? ~38% average is pretty extreme considering the second lowest is Aatrox sitting at ~46%

Release Taliyah was in the low 30s, I believe.

nafta

Bulgaria18893 Posts

July 29 2016 21:24 GMT

#43

On July 29 2016 21:02 Jek wrote:
Has there ever been a champion with lower win ratio than the new Ryze? ~38% average is pretty extreme considering the second lowest is Aatrox sitting at ~46%

Azir was 34% at one point and nidalee/gragas had <38 just after their reworks.

kongoline

6318 Posts

July 29 2016 21:31 GMT

#44

i feel like ryze Q needs to be bad because his instant point and click W cc is dumb af

Kinie

United States3106 Posts

July 29 2016 21:52 GMT

#45

I think the more recent release champions (Azir and Taliyah) had low 30's to mid 30's for win rate percentage, and that's mainly due to the complexity of their kits along with bugs (for Azir) and movement on the map (surfing on the wall with Taliyah's ult).

IamPryda

United States1186 Posts

July 29 2016 23:40 GMT

#46

Ryze win percentage will always be lower then average due to the fact he takes a good chunk of games to be anything but absolute shit on. I like to see what type of win rates he has on people with 50 plus games on since the rework

kongoline

6318 Posts

July 30 2016 00:01 GMT

#47

wasnt ryze at like 46% when he was broken and banned every game?

JimmiC

Canada22817 Posts

July 30 2016 00:58 GMT

#48

--- Nuked ---

JonnyLaw

United States3482 Posts

July 30 2016 05:55 GMT

#49

On July 30 2016 08:40 IamPryda wrote:
Ryze win percentage will always be lower then average due to the fact he takes a good chunk of games to be anything but absolute shit on. I like to see what type of win rates he has on people with 50 plus games on since the rework

Ryze was referred to as the face roll champ for so long with his initial version. I smile when I read about his complex kit now.

Actually I'd prefer the original Ryze. It could have been made to work. Maybe a bit of power out of the offense and embrace him building tanky mana mage.

DarkCore

Germany4194 Posts

July 30 2016 08:03 GMT

#50

Ryze win rate was almost exactly 50% in Plat+ before the rework, so from that standpoint there was no reason to rework him.

I think if they dumped his stupid ult for some form of utility (like, an MS boost???????) he'd be in a lot better shape. He actually does quite a lot of damage right now, although his button mashing has gotten harder since you need to think about whether you want the longer root or AoE dmg (actually like that they moved that part of his ult to his basic abilities). But that doesn't matter if the only way he can get to you is by flanking or running ghost.

Actually I'd prefer the original Ryze. It could have been made to work. Maybe a bit of power out of the offense and embrace him building tanky mana mage.

I too think the first Ryze (that's the S2 one right?) was best Ryze. But Riot thought the only way they could balance him was by making his Q a skill shot for outplay potential. But this Ryze is better than the one before, except for the dumb ult. His basic abilities are far more interactive now.

GrandInquisitor

New York City13113 Posts

July 30 2016 23:44 GMT

#51

If I remember correctly, original Ryze was OK for a long time until various meta changes and people waking up led to the realization that he was a total terror top lane. Once that happened they had to Olaf him while they tried to figure out how to rework him. He was simultaneously a lane bully but also a hyperscaler, which was completely obnoxious.

Alaric

France45622 Posts

July 30 2016 23:56 GMT

#52

Reworked Ryze with the skillshot Q was still terror because even though he wouldn't shove you out of lane at level 1 he'd bully you super hard without pushing much with E, and later on 100-0 you thanks to his passive during a perma-root.
Not exactly fine either.

Amui

Canada10567 Posts

July 31 2016 00:19 GMT

#53

The original top ryze was dumb because he was incredibly safe vs almost every pick (1v1 at least), outscaled everybody, and if he made it to tear without dying was just stupid to play against. I mean there were a few picks that could snowball off Ryze's weak level 1 when pressured with a mana crystal opening, but otherwise was a monster.

Rework with skillshot was dumb. I knew somebody in bronze who couldn't CS, had horrific map awareness and decisionmaking, but every few games on Ryze he would manage to just combo the other guy at level 3-5 simply because he practiced that combo in customs for a long time. You put pressure on him and he panics, you harass him and he panics, but severely misposition and he can combo you from 100% without letting the snare drop. Not really any counter play available.

cLutZ

United States19574 Posts

July 31 2016 00:43 GMT

#54

The original Ryze wasn't bad until the anti-snowballing mechanics and toplane TP became the meta. Also the jungle not being a cakewalk to clear meant things like lvl 2 ganks and camping Ryze's lane were no longer options. That Ryze probably still wouldn't work in modern LOL, although IMO he still fits in better than both iterations of the rework.

As an aside, competitively, shouldn't "the worse" team just pick Jihn every game? Preferably with other ways to fillow up on picks like Karma, Leblanc, Ahri, etc? I almost never see the "better" team lose without getting picked a lot (almost always by Jihn) or getting the weird extended turnarounds (usually with a TP) that only curtain call can create.

Redox

Germany24794 Posts

July 31 2016 00:54 GMT

#55

New Ryze seems surprisingly good if you know what you are doing. Kind of funny how complex the iconic face roll champion has become. This created another champion that will be very hard to balance though with very different performance at low and high level of play.

Sufficiency

Canada23833 Posts

July 31 2016 01:01 GMT

#56

Hi,

I was bored and decided to make this calculator to predict the result of an ARAM game using the champions selected. Does anyone want to test it for me? I am particularly worried about the coverage of HTML5-supported browsers.

http://www.manaless.com/2016/07/predicting-aram-outcome-based-only-on.html

Cheers,

Redox

Germany24794 Posts

July 31 2016 01:06 GMT

#57

Worked on Chrome if that helps.

GrandInquisitor

New York City13113 Posts

July 31 2016 01:30 GMT

#58

On July 31 2016 10:01 Sufficiency wrote:
Hi,

I was bored and decided to make this calculator to predict the result of an ARAM game using the champions selected. Does anyone want to test it for me? I am particularly worried about the coverage of HTML5-supported browsers.

http://www.manaless.com/2016/07/predicting-aram-outcome-based-only-on.html

Cheers,

Given that you only see the champs after the game starts, maybe it makes sense to make it an API call based on your summoner name instead of having to manually input the champs?

Sufficiency

Canada23833 Posts

July 31 2016 01:47 GMT

#59

On July 31 2016 10:30 GrandInquisitor wrote:

Show nested quote +

Given that you only see the champs after the game starts, maybe it makes sense to make it an API call based on your summoner name instead of having to manually input the champs?

Like you have said, I can't get the list of champions in a game until the game starts. Once that happens, I can no longer dodge the ARAM... making it sort of pointless.

But I do agree with you that manually entering 10 text boxes is annoying and largely impractical.

An additional consideration is that if I do it after the game starts, I know who the 10 players are, so I can incorporate the ranking and/or mastery information of each player into my model...

Goumindong

United States3529 Posts

July 31 2016 06:19 GMT

#60

If you're thinking about dodging then it's better to just use one team. Which should also let you increase the complexity of the calculation(I.E. Include more interaction variables) and should negate your deficiency issue.

Additionally with two teams you should be able to code a single champion as 0,1,-1 for "not present", "blue", red" on a single variable. Which should also iirc fix your rank deficiency issue.

The enemy team won't matter in the long run to dodging except insomuch as your tool modifies what is played so just going to the one team is probably ideal even if it's less accuracy in the model

Edit: it's been quite a while since I've done any work in that area so I could be way off base. Also not sure if your models have input requirements with regards to a trinary structure. (Red side/blue side effect should be the same so it should work fine)

.

On July 31 2016 08:44 GrandInquisitor wrote:
If I remember correctly, original Ryze was OK for a long time until various meta changes and people waking up led to the realization that he was a total terror top lane. Once that happened they had to Olaf him while they tried to figure out how to rework him. He was simultaneously a lane bully but also a hyperscaler, which was completely obnoxious.

Original ryze was on/off strong. He left the meta when banshees (and something else iirc) lost mana. He came back with tear and roa buffs. (Mainly). Which is what caused him to be reworked.