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you need to use BC and AD notation for udyr, because he went from like 60+% winrate to 40-45% in 2 patches.
your stats are only relevant post nerfs. Anyone could do well in that one patch with every tank item being broken and it's so hard to do well post every item and skill nerf.
I could try more with Q play but I'm not too sure if it scales well enough to justify damage items. You need close to 100AD for the Q scaling to breakeven with sheen and you get more sheen procs than tiger procs. Getting that much AD is far from reasonable since you have to build mostly tank.
Titanic hydra is good, black cleaver seems bad, you don't get to auto all that much.
5Q+5R with no damage items except iceborne is one of the things I tried, pretty low sample size though could be good, but also trying 1rk q 5 R 5E for the zoom.
The biggest issue is not losing the game early on, once you;re ahead on gold, udyrs late isn't bad. Having to complete with junglers who gank better duel better and clear better (most of them right now) is just tough.
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On Jax would you go cutlass first for sustain or revolver first for on-hit burst, one triforce is built, now that they've changed the components?
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cutlass is garbage
you get trinity, maybe some tank items, and then gunblade with revolver first and preferably finish gunblade from that in one buy.
for tank items frozen mallet is good, steraks is good and titanic hydra is probably good. Standard dead mans or randuins+SV is good too but jax can get away with a lot because of his ult.
I'm consistently surprised by how useful the gunblade sustain is. Jax has a lot of defensive tools (E,R,Q) to keep him from being bursted before he can sustain anything.
I imagine the burst with trinity/gunblade/steraks/titanic hydra is just sickening,but you probably want like deadmans+spirit visage and drop one of the former list.
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On May 18 2016 21:12 Slayer91 wrote:
cutlass is garbage
you get trinity, maybe some tank items, and then gunblade with revolver first and preferably finish gunblade from that in one buy.
for tank items frozen mallet is good, steraks is good and titanic hydra is probably good. Standard dead mans or randuins+SV is good too but jax can get away with a lot because of his ult.
I'm consistently surprised by how useful the gunblade sustain is. Jax has a lot of defensive tools (E,R,Q) to keep him from being bursted before he can sustain anything.
I imagine the burst with trinity/gunblade/steraks/titanic hydra is just sickening,but you probably want like deadmans+spirit visage and drop one of the former list.
Why do you need more than 2 offensive items? You don't need more than that to out duel people or one shot the adc.
Building frozen mallet makes no sense when if you building either phage (for TF) or gunblade. If you want a defensive version of those get ice born gauntlet maybe?
What situation are you building hydra for? Jax already clears the wave fast and has push priority over most other top lane as he can kill them in an extended lane once towers are down.
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On May 18 2016 18:34 M2 wrote:
For me its not only malz, but I don't see any of the reworked mages in my games. I mean they appear from time to time, but with the exception of Annie and Brand who feel neither stronger nor weaker than before, I just don't see the others.
Couple of games I had to play against Veigar who absolutely crushed us with 1000ap at 25min or something like that, I actually asked people to ban him, however, no one ever picked him again in like 40 games. Then I had Vladimir, Cassiopea and Malz in few games and they did nothing special, neither fed nor carried, could not say anything about their power.
Ziggs never appeared.
So lets summarize it:
1. Brand & Annie - played as much as before - power level same as before
2. Vladimir, Cassio, Malz, Swain, Syndra, Anivia - rarely seen, hard to say anytning about their power level
3. Vel koz, Veigar, Fiddle - rarely seen, but strong as fuck
4. Zyra - appears often, as squishy as before, as damage dealing as before, but somehow more impactful than before
5. Ziggs, Xerath - never showed
This is my opinion on these, if anyone can confirm & object please do so, I would like to read other opinions
Malz is not seen because he is banned. When he is seen he has one of the highest win rates. Keep in mind nobody played him before so this is almost all people picking up the champ fresh and still winning with it. In high elo this should not happen.
Saint is saying fiddle is freelo.
Zyra is now one of the highest winrate supports.
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The only significant change is Fiddle's E potentially getting 3 bounces on your drain target more easily (if you cast E then start draining while it's flying to its second target) since his passive change only works for ganking people who don't know he's there (taking the time to stay immobile for a mediocre speed boost isn't worth it if they're already seeing you coming).
Is that really that strong to offset the loss of of the -10 MR aura some patches ago?
Even then looks like it has more to do with systemic changes (vision/masteries/jungle, and maybe cheaper/smoother zhonya's?) than with this patch's champion changes in particular.
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Zyra has always been one of the highest winrate champions. There was a good while where it wasn't uncommon to see support Zyra top the damage charts in the whole game. New Zyra is a lot less bursty than old Zyra, TBH. Takes more setup time.
After hot nerfs, Malz Winrate is nearly identical to his winrate before the patch. Hell, AP mid Malz might even be less strong than before. His passive is real good, but his new ult combo does a lot less damage than his old one. I think him being perma banned actually makes hims stronger, because to counterplay his passive you need some experience laning against or as him, whereas if you don't then you just get wrecked because you don't know how to efficiently trade. Malz is actually way worse at trading now, people just don't know they need to pop the passive first, then trade with all their abilities. Everytime I see him he is getting away with murder with that passive, when all you need to to break it 3s early with an auto, then he is either zoned or he will lose a trade real hard.
Malz is still a pretty strong AP Jungler and strong mid, but he was good in both these roles before. Maybe a little trolly from the jungle, but thats more because the items sucked and he was real mana heavy. If you could get through the first couple clears, he was a pretty legit jungler back then too, just had to spam them abilities for voidlings. He just kind of shifted from being a better mid to being a better Jungler.
On May 18 2016 22:35 Alaric wrote:
The only significant change is Fiddle's E potentially getting 3 bounces on your drain target more easily (if you cast E then start draining while it's flying to its second target) since his passive change only works for ganking people who don't know he's there (taking the time to stay immobile for a mediocre speed boost isn't worth it if they're already seeing you coming).
Is that really that strong to offset the loss of of the -10 MR aura some patches ago?
Even then looks like it has more to do with systemic changes (vision/masteries/jungle, and maybe cheaper/smoother zhonya's?) than with this patch's champion changes in particular.
He also gets huge movespeed if he is standing still for 1.5 seconds; essentially you get ghost for a few seconds every time you ult. changes him from ulting and requiring Flash / Protobelt to get into range, to him being able to just run you down and fear you regardless. You always get the movespeed when you ult because the channel time is 1.5 seconds.
Protobelt is also a huge buff for him. Zhonya's changes are a big buff for him. Vision changes are a big buff for him. More gold in the jungle is a big buff for him. Raptor buff especially is a big big buff for him, you know you aren't on a ward.
Its an accumulation of things, being crowned by the sprint buff. Runic Echoes having movespeed is a big buff too. They also buffed the number of crow bounces.
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On May 18 2016 22:09 MuddyJam wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2016 21:12 Slayer91 wrote:
cutlass is garbage
you get trinity, maybe some tank items, and then gunblade with revolver first and preferably finish gunblade from that in one buy.
for tank items frozen mallet is good, steraks is good and titanic hydra is probably good. Standard dead mans or randuins+SV is good too but jax can get away with a lot because of his ult.
I'm consistently surprised by how useful the gunblade sustain is. Jax has a lot of defensive tools (E,R,Q) to keep him from being bursted before he can sustain anything.
I imagine the burst with trinity/gunblade/steraks/titanic hydra is just sickening,but you probably want like deadmans+spirit visage and drop one of the former list.
Why do you need more than 2 offensive items? You don't need more than that to out duel people or one shot the adc. Building frozen mallet makes no sense when if you building either phage (for TF) or gunblade. If you want a defensive version of those get ice born gauntlet maybe? What situation are you building hydra for? Jax already clears the wave fast and has push priority over most other top lane as he can kill them in an extended lane once towers are down.
IBG is straight up a worse defensive item than mallet for jax because of his R. It also overlaps with sheen, while frozen mallet has no relation to phage anymore. Your reasonings are correct for the opposite stance: gauntlet is terrible when you can get mallet. The IBG slow tends to overlap with your stun as well, Mallet works when stun runs out.
The main reason is that jax has poor sticking power, using stun for it is usually what you do but it's a huge waste later on when 2 seconds dodge at the right time is much more valuable than a 1 second stun. Gunblade is nice for the slow but you only get to use it once.
That's justification for why the slow is very useful. The item itself gives 650 hp and 40AD.Thats +20 armour for 8 seconds that your ult is up. Deadmans only 200 gold less gives 500 hp and 50 armour. Granted you get a nice movement boost and one time only slow.
Jax R means that HP is a better stat than resists until you are deep past the 3k hp mark. The main reason you want resists is that a: well they're still good especially with gunblade, and b: you don't want to get bursted before you can cast ult.
In teamfights you often will avoid diving in straight away and focus some damage on someone closer to the front, baiting out their squishies to make a move so your team can follow more easily if you jump in. This is a situation having frozen mallet will help you a lot. Both the damage and the slow.
Hydra is not for pushing power, it's 450 hp, 35 ad, 35-45 extra onhit, and 300-400 extra burst damage (assuming lategame, comparable to gunblade+sheen proc at once). The pushing power is there but who cares.
In relation to the "more than 2 offensive items": You don't get to duel many people as jax. By far the more likely scenario is that you get bang slapped with CC and damage the second you go in. Now you want to be tanky to avoid the damage, but if you're getting CC'd so immediately you need to be able to get some solid burst off in a q-auto-W combo so that you are a big enough threat to finish them that you can't be chased down.
The other scenario is that you are split pushing and you need to tower dive the enemy, in this case the enemy is probably going to cc you or flash and having just gunblade and a jukable stun might not be enough to kill him. Having more burst or slow from mallet/hydra/steraks will help you here.
I'm not sure how much you play jax but his burst really isn't enough to one shot level 16+ adcs with just a trinity.
I don't usually get hydra but I never really considered it, in theory it should be strong as fuck.
As I said before, Jax has a lot more issues with getting kited and not doing enough burst damage than he does being tanky. Jax has one of the best defensive kits in the game (E+R+great escape with Q), simply because he doesn't do anything with a full tank build but can't do anything if he gets one shot.
I did attempt going full tank jax before with the reasoning that his R is as good as udyrs R (+gap closing and better defensive kit) but you realize quickly that udyrs mobility with E allows him to get damage off that jax can't. Also your R and Q ties you to getting something concrete done in that 8 seconds while udyr can spam W and E for ages without having to commit.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I think some of the people talking about how strong Brand is now (he can take you down to 50% HP!) must not have played against old Brand. Brand has never lacked for damage. The real change is that it's made it really important for Brand to snowball 3 stacks on everyone on a teamfight - you really want to go for that W->E->R so you can turn everyone into ticking fire bombs. He's a subpar assassin-type mage, because you know, may as well just play Veigar, and the changes have really turned him into the guy you want when you just want as much damage on as many enemies as possible.
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..so you're saying they gave him more damage?
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
That was poorly worded. He's got more damage across an entire team, but his single target damage is usually a small nerf. It's a reasonable balance change to push him away from a Veigar/Syndra role into ... not really sure who he's comparable to. I was going to say Zyra or Anivia but those are more zone control than Brand is. (Brand's Q with Rylai's actually makes me think of Ezreal to be honest.)
I guess Brand is the guy to pick if you just want the biggest damage numbers in the postgame screen, but he's also the best example of why those numbers don't mean a great deal.
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Brand does less single-target damage unless he gets to trigger his passive's explosion, basically. His abilities' base damage and ratios took quite a beating, and even his passive is weaker if it doesn't explode. DFT and the triggered explosion are what make him deal the same or more damage than pre-s6.
Which means that unless he gets to trigger the explosion on multiple champions, he's going to deal less AoE damage then before (potentially "less, period"). For this he needs to put at least 2 passive stacks on champions (assuming their neighbour's explosion is going to be the 3rd), which means W on a clump, relying on ult RNG, or using E for its AoE burn.
If you don't use E as your opener for a rotation, you're going to miss out on either the stun or a lot of your W damage (I dislike leading with the ult because the projectile is slow, not guaranteed to hit everyone, and at the same time better at hitting multiple people once they start spreading out, so when we catch/initiate I'd rather unload the quicker spells then ult), so you potentially do a lot more AoE damage but if it doesn't work out you're missing out on utility and further damage.
Of course DFT is dumb so you're going to hurt people a lot anyway.
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Brand is weird now, I feel like he does a lot less damage early and to squishies, but he also chunks tanks and clusters of enemies way harder than he used to if you land everything. I hate how slowly his ult moves now, it is soooo slow. And casting his ult feels really "sticky," as in it never wants to go off even when I'm mashing frantically to try to combo properly.
I also feel like I run into a lot of situations where I'm waiting for his passive to pop, and then I just sit around and die before the damage goes off because the wait is so long.
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On May 18 2016 22:35 Alaric wrote:
The only significant change is Fiddle's E potentially getting 3 bounces on your drain target more easily (if you cast E then start draining while it's flying to its second target) since his passive change only works for ganking people who don't know he's there (taking the time to stay immobile for a mediocre speed boost isn't worth it if they're already seeing you coming).
Is that really that strong to offset the loss of of the -10 MR aura some patches ago?
Even then looks like it has more to do with systemic changes (vision/masteries/jungle, and maybe cheaper/smoother zhonya's?) than with this patch's champion changes in particular.
not this patch more still from last patch. Not all the listed champs were changed this patch. Having bonus MS for his ult via his passive is nice as it makes it less flash dependant.
Ok I don't play jax but from theory viewpoint I have issues.
On May 18 2016 23:11 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2016 22:09 MuddyJam wrote:On May 18 2016 21:12 Slayer91 wrote:
cutlass is garbage
you get trinity, maybe some tank items, and then gunblade with revolver first and preferably finish gunblade from that in one buy.
for tank items frozen mallet is good, steraks is good and titanic hydra is probably good. Standard dead mans or randuins+SV is good too but jax can get away with a lot because of his ult.
I'm consistently surprised by how useful the gunblade sustain is. Jax has a lot of defensive tools (E,R,Q) to keep him from being bursted before he can sustain anything.
I imagine the burst with trinity/gunblade/steraks/titanic hydra is just sickening,but you probably want like deadmans+spirit visage and drop one of the former list.
Why do you need more than 2 offensive items? You don't need more than that to out duel people or one shot the adc. Building frozen mallet makes no sense when if you building either phage (for TF) or gunblade. If you want a defensive version of those get ice born gauntlet maybe? What situation are you building hydra for? Jax already clears the wave fast and has push priority over most other top lane as he can kill them in an extended lane once towers are down. IBG is straight up a worse defensive item than mallet for jax because of his R. It also overlaps with sheen, while frozen mallet has no relation to phage anymore. Your reasonings are correct for the opposite stance: gauntlet is terrible when you can get mallet. The IBG slow tends to overlap with your stun as well, Mallet works when stun runs out. why would you buy both? I'm offering IBG as a potential in place of TF, maybe if you get shafted in lane.The main reason is that jax has poor sticking power, using stun for it is usually what you do but it's a huge waste later on when 2 seconds dodge at the right time is much more valuable than a 1 second stun. Gunblade is nice for the slow but you only get to use it once. How many people are you trying to stick to at once here? It is extremely rare you don't have a ally to help cc. If you don't have an ally what situation are you expecting to go in 1v2 and need to stick to both players. Also you wouldn't need to be so concerned on getting blown up if you sunk that 3.1k from FM into a deadman's where you get more effective hp vs physical like aa. Like money wise I can buy a gunblade + deadman + boots while your sitting on FM and TF That's justification for why the slow is very useful. The item itself gives 650 hp and 40AD.Thats +20 armour for 8 seconds that your ult is up. Deadmans only 200 gold less gives 500 hp and 50 armour. Granted you get a nice movement boost and one time only slow. What kills are you getting with BOTH that you couldn't get with one? what situation are you seeing in a tf where the slow > tank Jax R means that HP is a better stat than resists until you are deep past the 3k hp mark. The main reason you want resists is that a: well they're still good especially with gunblade, and b: you don't want to get bursted before you can cast ult. In teamfights you often will avoid diving in straight away and focus some damage on someone closer to the front, baiting out their squishies to make a move so your team can follow more easily if you jump in. This is a situation having frozen mallet will help you a lot. Both the damage and the slow. so the squishy is tanking you through the gunblade slow? IF you plan to aa the front line then dive people why not rageblade which in this situation is more gold efficient will do more dmg and give more resistances. Hydra is not for pushing power, it's 450 hp, 35 ad, 35-45 extra onhit, and 300-400 extra burst damage (assuming lategame, comparable to gunblade+sheen proc at once). The pushing power is there but who cares. Well you can proc the shen way more often on jax than the hydra active so either explain why you build hydra over it. If you build both you have no sustain/mr/tankiness outside ult. Are you not susceptible to poke? the resistance you are getting are not very much. What if you mess up? you seem to demand you will never get caught without ultimate or focused in a TF. In relation to the "more than 2 offensive items": You don't get to duel many people as jax. By far the more likely scenario is that you get bang slapped with CC and damage the second you go in. Now you want to be tanky to avoid the damage, but if you're getting CC'd so immediately you need to be able to get some solid burst off in a q-auto-W combo so that you are a big enough threat to finish them that you can't be chased down. So you get focused and blown up due to your build being bad. So your conclusion is you need to make it worse by making yourself less tanky. If they are going to blow all their cc make it so it costs them alot. IF you getting cc'd means you lose than you have bigger issues than your burst. You teamfighting sounds like a coin flip. If your team is ahead you don't get the focus so you do a lot of damage. If your team is behind you get blown up and feel you need to become a burst mage. Your plan sounds like your team is carrying you. The other scenario is that you are split pushing and you need to tower dive the enemy, in this case the enemy is probably going to cc you or flash and having just gunblade and a jukable stun might not be enough to kill him. Having more burst or slow from mallet/hydra/steraks will help you here. why do you have to kill them? If you can take the towers then the champions are irrelevant. If they flash away thats a won trade for you. They aren't going to have flash again in 1 minute when your ult is back. Generally the top laner your pushing in will be a tank. How are you bursting them? I'm not sure how much you play jax but his burst really isn't enough to one shot level 16+ adcs with just a trinity. I don't usually get hydra but I never really considered it, in theory it should be strong as fuck. As I said before, Jax has a lot more issues with getting kited and not doing enough burst damage than he does being tanky. Jax has one of the best defensive kits in the game (E+R+great escape with Q), simply because he doesn't do anything with a full tank build but can't do anything if he gets one shot. yeah sure. Lets watch a full tank jax with rageblade fight some people 1v1. Lets see the no damage that he does. I did attempt going full tank jax before with the reasoning that his R is as good as udyrs R (+gap closing and better defensive kit) but you realize quickly that udyrs mobility with E allows him to get damage off that jax can't. Also your R and Q ties you to getting something concrete done in that 8 seconds while udyr can spam W and E for ages without having to commit.
o right jax's r passive, his general passive, counterstrike make for horrible use in extended fights.
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Zyra is pretty engaging to play right now - she has a ton more depth as a champ and way more game impact. I'm going to have a fair bit of fun in the next few weeks learning how to manipulate her passive and whatnot. Early game poke might be overtuned but otherwise she's fine.
Viktor as far as I'm concerned is stronger. He does noticeably more damage at all phases of a game and can completely zone people out of teamfights or kill them with his ult alone. Really good control as always, Waveclear is stronger. I'm not sure what's his best build though and I'd love to hear some thoughts on this. Maybe protobelt to abuse his great scaling w/ hextech? I've struggled with the highest winrate builds so I'm not sure where to go.
Annie is good, haven't played much so can't comment.
Xerath just feels like good old Xerath, except those bs "wtf that hit?" moments are gone. Im not sure how the item rework has equipped him to fight in unfavourable matchups, but if you just pick him when you know you'll win with him based on comp (5th pick Xer is disgusting) he's way more game controlling. Xer used to just get to this point late where people could just run at him even after getting seiged into oblivion, which isn't really the case if I can just ult and kill ppl. I'm wondering also if getting more ballista shots has made him better in explicit teamfight comps instead of just seiges. Seems strong.
Next champ to learn is Anivia. Now that she's less boring af to play and she got hotfixed she should be kind of my style.
What's w/ the GP hate? He's so much fun to play with and against o.0 I think he's designed incredibly well and is one of their best reworks.
Oh yeah and fucking Akali is godmode again. She's just fucking retard proof whenever she gets even the slightest of buffs and gunblade has taken her over the edge. Get your freelo while you can boys because I hope to god she gets nerfed back into the stone age soon. Terrible designed garbage hero that tilts me off the face of the earth whenever shes in my game.
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gp:
annoying global ult so he can be useful without doing anything
annoying harass and farm from range perma with q never running oom
barrels are stupid in general can randomly either blow up entire team or get sniped and be useless
gp just sits top and farms items forever using annoying global and then either does nothing and dies or one shots people with barrels
cancerous gameplay
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i think barrels are fine but ult is too strong especially with thunderlords it does half squishy hp in a second
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Rageblade theoretically should be good on Udyr or Jax because they want to be constantly hitting minions or jungle camps anyways.
The problem is I've never been in a Jax matchup (aside from some of the broken Ryze eras) where I have gotten to 3.5k gold successfully and been like "Yea, what I really need to do now is make my splitpush sustained damage better!" No, you want burst so people can't run away from you when you jump on them, you want slows for the same reason, and you want to be not-terrible in teamfights.
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Victor gained 4% or more on his win rate and is now above 50% so yea I would say that is stronger! Not sure what the items suggest about his play pattern but I bet you abuse the CDR on abyssal to q->e ->q to kill people.
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EPT
