EPT[Patch 6.10] Aerodactyl General Discussion - Page 21
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
Shit happens, ya know? | ||
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DiracMonopole
United States1555 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
Thing is they wanted to make him a melee that could scrap with mages. I like that concept, I like the trickster thing with the outplays. But the thing is his current implementation is kind of retard proof. He can run a guy down without landing a skillshot, meanwhile he is 50% speed boosted and they are slowed for 51% with his double slows. Then he is just trucking them with percent damage. I mean, you take that stuff away sure he feels weaker or whatever, but he is still this trickster messing around with time. I think the character feels just fine and like a trickster without random percent HP executes, random speed boosts, and even the vision on his W. I don't think you can take away his ability to easily dash juke skillshots though, that is kind of his whole feel. The problem with the champion is that he is designed to be this trickster assassin that outplays people, and he has the ability to do this, but the thing is he is at a state right now with his base damages and number where any idiot can pick him and go full retard at the other laner and just kill them and win lane. He should have to be dodging skillshots and getting trades off with shields. He is kind of in the same spot Riven was in for a long time where anyone can pick him and just win lane, but he is a "high skill cap" outplay champion. He should be hard to win lane on, but if you outplay and win trades because you out mind gamed him then he should be able to stomp you. I also think a good portion of his damage should be moved into AP ratios. Atleast make him build a few bruiser AP items to just truck kids in teamfights. | ||
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Prog
United Kingdom1470 Posts
On May 30 2016 16:57 M2 wrote: Honestly, my experience with her is exactly the same as yours, strong in lane, successfully roaming from all roles, engaging, disengaging, killing, preventing killings, overall I felt her as pretty strong opponent, but somehow not annoying and then yesterday I think, I saw her win rates in champion.gg and I was kind of shocked, expected something different. The only explanation I could come up is that she has the release yasou syndrome My experience with her is very different. She is strong in lane pre-6, but post 6 she struggles with pretty much everyone. Assasins can burst her super easily. Control mages outrange her. The only thing you can do is roam. Thankfully her roams can be fantastic. But sometimes there are just no good roaming opportunities. She is also very easily snowballed against. Taliyah has very few defensive tools that can help her if the other midlaner all-ins. So if your opponent is ahead, you have to play overly careful. Your knockup won't save you. This also means that you can't roam that well anymore, because you won't be able to push out the midwave quickly and then roam. That's why On May 30 2016 18:23 Jek wrote: My experience with Taliyah is either she pops off and hardcarry or she singlehandedly solve world hunger. fits pretty well. If you are ahead on Taliyah you can do whatever you want and have an impact on every lane. But if you are behind you feel quite helpless. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
I also think a good portion of his damage should be moved into AP ratios. Atleast make him build a few bruiser AP items to just truck kids in teamfights. I just fear the current Ekko utility on an AP champion. His all in is similar to Zed except it has a heal and AoE ult dmg, not to mention the possibility of a stun and shield. Nothing wrong with his ability to assassinate, it's everything else he gets that makes him so damn slippery and difficult to deal with. Has Riot mentioned anything about balancing Zed? Definition of anti fun when you're playing ADC. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On May 30 2016 22:49 Prog wrote: My experience with her is very different. She is strong in lane pre-6, but post 6 she struggles with pretty much everyone. Assasins can burst her super easily. Control mages outrange her. The only thing you can do is roam. Thankfully her roams can be fantastic. But sometimes there are just no good roaming opportunities. She is also very easily snowballed against. Taliyah has very few defensive tools that can help her if the other midlaner all-ins. So if your opponent is ahead, you have to play overly careful. Your knockup won't save you. This also means that you can't roam that well anymore, because you won't be able to push out the midwave quickly and then roam. That's why fits pretty well. If you are ahead on Taliyah you can do whatever you want and have an impact on every lane. But if you are behind you feel quite helpless. As she should lose any all in level 6. You don't have combat ultimate. It would be pretty stupid if she could win an otherwise even fight at level 6. This is the same as pretty much all champs without a combat ulti. You don't see Spartans or TF's popping six and just giving her, you see them shove out the wave then go bottom or some shit. I don't really think that is a weakness, that is just different powerspikes than other champs. I bet she trucks kids 1v1 at level 5 and level 10, just like Spartans and TF. I also don't really think she is that weak to assassins compared to the average mage. She has the CC and the dash punish. I've laned against her as Panth a few times, she trucked me in all ins till i got way ahead through roams. I could see her being outplayed, but that is being outplayed. That is different than being weak... its the same thing they said about Azir when he first came out. If she is beating Pantheon in fights and skirmishes, she is probably trucking other champions too. I bet against most mages she probably just outright dominates 1-5, and she should be forcing them out of lane by then; by 6 she probably should be a wave or 2 ahead in order to just fight the other champions, same as pantheon I imagine. I bet she probably wants to aggressively all in level 1 with Q, all in level 3 with full combo, then all in level 5. I bet she can probably shove someone out of lane both those spots. Then you just shoving and going bottom level 6. I havn't really played her, but from my experience, I would bet that would be the way to go. I'll have to try it out first though, just assuming. As panth I can crush pretty much everyone in all ins pre-6 except champs I can't get on, or a very select few. Pretty much only champs you can get on Panth just loses to in these all ins is like release Diana, release Xin Zhao and release Darius. You can add Taliyah to this list. I bet lots of players just aren't exploiting her early strength as much as they should be. She also roams real fast with her passive and no ult... with level 2 boots she has higher movespeed through the river than most champions do with Mobi's. You prolly want to just concede lane and just shove it out and be pressuring top / bot till level 8 or 9, then you can probably fight again till they hit level 11. Again, just assuming because she probably has similair power spikes to Spartan. On May 30 2016 23:21 DarkCore wrote: I just fear the current Ekko utility on an AP champion. His all in is similar to Zed except it has a heal and AoE ult dmg, not to mention the possibility of a stun and shield. Nothing wrong with his ability to assassinate, it's everything else he gets that makes him so damn slippery and difficult to deal with. Has Riot mentioned anything about balancing Zed? Definition of anti fun when you're playing ADC. TBH, I don't think his Ult should even have / require a heal as it is. I agree with you. On PBE right now: Razor Shuriken (Q) Base damage reduced to 70/105/140/175/210 from 75/115/155/195/235 AD ratio reduced to .9 from 1.0 Damage on Multi hit on same target increased to 75% from 50% | ||
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Prog
United Kingdom1470 Posts
Also with regard to assassins: Please try using your delayed skillshot knockup against mobile assassins as peel and stop theorycrafting. Good luck doing that. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On May 31 2016 00:29 Prog wrote: You have a very strange definition of "weak". In my conceptual space being easily outplayed is being weak. And having a power-lull at certain points is not only a different powerspike, it is a weakness. What else should weakness at time t mean than having lower power at time t? Also with regard to assassins: Please try using your delayed skillshot knockup against mobile assassins as peel and stop theorycrafting. Good luck doing that. "Lol good luck getting a soldiers divide on an assassin. Trash champ." You're missing the part where you roll over the guy at level 5. I've played probably 2000 Games on pantheon, there really are very very few champions pantheon doesn't just dick on when he jumps on them, Taliyah is one of them. You're also pretending you don't shove waves as hard as anivia (especially with the Q buff coming next patch), and that an assassin isn't getting chunked for 600 damage jumping through your rock field. Think less twisted fate and more old school AP Sion. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
you guys just salty old men ekko is kind of an interesting character he's just a bit too strong | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
That's actually the staple of what he does: he's supposed to have low burst so he can't just jump in and 100-0 you, instead going in and out, poking, dodging stuff on the way in and once he can get you low, he uses his passive to stick to you rather than disengage, and apply the %damage to finish you off. If I wanted to hit his damage I'd look at Q, passive, etc. and make sure he has to work to get people low, but can get his thing of "dance around till they're low and then you're strong." Riven destroys anyone low because of her low cd huge shield, burst and mobility, on top of being able to 100-0 people, she can just brute force with the shield, esp. if her ult is active and she has a lifesteal item (since the huge-ass AD is enhanced further by her passive and lifesteal works on it). Ekko should lack initial burst, but be able to quickly finish off low people, with the tools to allow it being elusiveness rather than the huge-ass shield (he's still got one but it's delayed so he can't just run straight at you and shield on reaction). That's more interesting than a Zed n°2 with utility. Amongst the issues are that you're supposed to be rewarded for hitting the delayed 2nd Q hit or redirect it with your dashes and blinks, and at the same time the first Q hit shouldn't be too weak otherwise you've got no way to clear waves/it's hard to cs at range early on. So where do you cut damage? | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On May 31 2016 03:13 Jek wrote: To be honest I think the issue with Ekko is how well he synergize with the tank items he utilize compared to other toplaners, not really his kit per se I mean he is in my opinion completely balanced when built AP. All of the items have huge synergy with his kit as opposed to just being "good tank items" on other champions. Spirit Visage's value on Poppy vs Ekko for instance, free Iceborn proc from dash etc etc. Doesn't strong synergy with items precisely arise from kit? You say 'not really per se' but that's exactly the point, tank Ekko loves his tank items, and on top of that he also does a ton of base dmg and is sticky asf in fights and has a healing invun disengage. No champion is OP because of items, but it can be because they make more effective use of them. Right now I'd say there's little problem with tanks items, if there was we would be stuck with League of Tanks again. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On May 31 2016 03:44 DarkCore wrote: Doesn't strong synergy with items precisely arise from kit? You say 'not really per se' but that's exactly the point, tank Ekko loves his tank items, and on top of that he also does a ton of base dmg and is sticky asf in fights and has a healing invun disengage. No champion is OP because of items, but it can be because they make more effective use of them. Right now I'd say there's little problem with tanks items, if there was we would be stuck with League of Tanks again. Yea, his kit is stacked, which is why he uses every item well. He could build almost all of the ap and tank items and be happy. The other issue is his ult which has huge damage that no one really ever used for damage (so he is basically balanced on having an ult that is Leblanc's second W swap). This lets him do the little ult-tp cheeky thing without really fearing an all-in. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On May 31 2016 04:23 cLutZ wrote: Yea, his kit is stacked, which is why he uses every item well. He could build almost all of the ap and tank items and be happy. The other issue is his ult which has huge damage that no one really ever used for damage (so he is basically balanced on having an ult that is Leblanc's second W swap). This lets him do the little ult-tp cheeky thing without really fearing an all-in. People only don't use his ult for damage when they're building tank because it does no damage without AP. I've seen it do plenty of damage when on an AP Ekko. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On May 31 2016 00:43 iCanada wrote: "Lol good luck getting a soldiers divide on an assassin. Trash champ." You're missing the part where you roll over the guy at level 5. I've played probably 2000 Games on pantheon, there really are very very few champions pantheon doesn't just dick on when he jumps on them, Taliyah is one of them. You're also pretending you don't shove waves as hard as anivia (especially with the Q buff coming next patch), and that an assassin isn't getting chunked for 600 damage jumping through your rock field. Think less twisted fate and more old school AP Sion. Ok, so i bought Taliyah and played a couple bots games then 7 normal games on her, I think my assumption was right thus far. Gonna take her to ranked. Went QEW, R>E>Q>W I laned against a Fizz, pushed him out of lane at level 1. he lost about 5 creeps to tower. He all inned me level 3, I FB'd him. Double killed bottom at level 5 after shoving Fizz out of lane with a wave or so at tower. Snowballed out of control. Laned against LeBlanc, pushed her out of lane at level 1, and again at level 3. Shoved her in, roamed, got kills and snowballed. I think LB probably could have killed me, seems like a skill matchup; a couple times I managed to knock her out of her W. You definitely kick her teeth in early though. I didn't fight her 1v1 post 6 at all. I took Ignite against a Zed, FB'd him level 2. Shoved him out level 4, and then snowballed through roaming. He still wrecked me 1v1 when i was ~2k gold up on him, but you can avoid fighting him I just got caught out in the river. Would have killed him level 4 and level 5 if I baited his W properly, but alas I didn't. Laned against Azir twice, felt alright. Pushed him out level 1, but after that was a farm matchup. Couldn't really shove him in to roam. Meh. Laned against Ekko, kicked his ass. Didn't try to fight him post 6, but pre-6 he couldn't really trade with Volley. I won 3 , lost 4 games of the 7. I think I could have carried one of the Azir games I lost, and the Zed game. The Zed game was actually pretty free, but I fucked up Ult wall real bad to lose us teamfights. Taliyah helping. Missed a few key W's that would have really changed the game. Skillshots hard. It seems like pretty much anyone you can get on you can beat the hell out of in lane pre 6, then you just shove and roam till like level 8 or 9 same as on Spartan. Unfortunately, some of the best mid laners right now you can't really get on (Azir, Viktor). Prolly some exceptions, notably I think Ryze would go poorly. The whole worked ground thing is actually much less annoying than I thought, just need to lean real aggressively to whichever side your Jungler is on, and you always get super Q unless your jungler is counter jungling real aggressively with like a top or bottom side rotation. I think (could be wrong) that Taliyah brings a lot more pressure 2v2 than most champions as long as they don't have real big burst ults or insane CC. I definitely think she is much stronger than her 38% winrate suggests. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On May 31 2016 03:44 DarkCore wrote: Doesn't strong synergy with items precisely arise from kit? You say 'not really per se' but that's exactly the point, tank Ekko loves his tank items, and on top of that he also does a ton of base dmg and is sticky asf in fights and has a healing invun disengage. No champion is OP because of items, but it can be because they make more effective use of them. Right now I'd say there's little problem with tanks items, if there was we would be stuck with League of Tanks again. I guess it depends on how you look at it, back when bruiser Fizz was fotm it was also facilitated by synergy with items not that his kit in itself was stacked. As I see it the kit is fine, the problem is it's pulled out of what it's designed for - a skirmishing/assassin/whatever AP champion. We saw the same when Zyra surprised everyone as being a disgustingly strong support instead of sololaner way back when thanks to her rediculous base damage. I dont think Riot need to change the kit, but rather sit down and figure out if they want him to be, a bruiser, an ap champion or whatever, and balance his values/ratios accordingly instead of sitting in this current greyzone. Sort of like what they did with Fizz. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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