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On April 10 2016 11:56 Frolossus wrote:
it has way more to do with grasp of the undying than any particular character imo
Well, yeah. It's the whole Grasp/Sunfire/Visage/IBG core that's an issue. It's just that all the other tanks that are abusing it have been around long enough that they've been nerfed. Ekko hasn't gone through that period where the balance team has been looking to nerf him and as a result is more overtuned than the already problem lineup.
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Should I be building cinderhulk or runic ekkos if I'm jungling Ekko
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all of these are core/have been core on nasus forever and hes still weak...hes going to get gutted soon
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On April 10 2016 12:26 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 11:56 Frolossus wrote:
it has way more to do with grasp of the undying than any particular character imo Well, yeah. It's the whole Grasp/Sunfire/Visage/IBG core that's an issue. It's just that all the other tanks that are abusing it have been around long enough that they've been nerfed. Ekko hasn't gone through that period where the balance team has been looking to nerf him and as a result is more overtuned than the already problem lineup.
neither of them has close to ekko winrate tho, they overbuffed him when he was already popular in soloQ and played in tournaments from time to time
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On April 10 2016 21:38 kongoline wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 12:26 Gahlo wrote:On April 10 2016 11:56 Frolossus wrote:
it has way more to do with grasp of the undying than any particular character imo Well, yeah. It's the whole Grasp/Sunfire/Visage/IBG core that's an issue. It's just that all the other tanks that are abusing it have been around long enough that they've been nerfed. Ekko hasn't gone through that period where the balance team has been looking to nerf him and as a result is more overtuned than the already problem lineup. neither of them has close to ekko winrate tho, they overbuffed him when he was already popular in soloQ and played in tournaments from time to time
wasnt he nerfed so nobody ever played him in the jungle again?
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On April 10 2016 21:38 kongoline wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 12:26 Gahlo wrote:On April 10 2016 11:56 Frolossus wrote:
it has way more to do with grasp of the undying than any particular character imo Well, yeah. It's the whole Grasp/Sunfire/Visage/IBG core that's an issue. It's just that all the other tanks that are abusing it have been around long enough that they've been nerfed. Ekko hasn't gone through that period where the balance team has been looking to nerf him and as a result is more overtuned than the already problem lineup. neither of them has close to ekko winrate tho, they overbuffed him when he was already popular in soloQ and played in tournaments from time to time
Yeah, that's why I said he was even more overtuned than the other tanks. Looking at his competitive match history he was largely being played as AP in the major leagues outside of a tank jungle game at Katowice. It wasn't until Soul played it in LCK on March 26th, the day 6.6 shipped with his buffs(though the game was played on the 6.5 patch).
They probably thought "He's showing up sometimes as an AP, which we like, but he could use a little nudge to bring him into the meta." then the competitive scene played him in this obnoxious tank style and he became the meta.
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On April 10 2016 10:33 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 10:08 JazzVortical wrote:
In addition, IBG is getting a nerf on PBE as well, so that will hurt Ekko as well.
It's not just tank Ekko. Ekko in general is a terrible design. Too much CC to be given proper assassin damage, if they buff his damage, he's going to have way too much CC to go with it. I don't see how he's ever going to be 'healthy'. It all comes down to whether or not Riot has the balls to remove some of those CC mechanics. Still, I'd rather be in a world where we're complaining about AP Ekko instead of Tank Ekko.
Ekko in general though has 3/4 of an awesome kit. Just his wierd delayed bubble stun. He could be Jax-like or Zeddy.
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On April 10 2016 22:45 Celial wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 21:38 kongoline wrote:On April 10 2016 12:26 Gahlo wrote:On April 10 2016 11:56 Frolossus wrote:
it has way more to do with grasp of the undying than any particular character imo Well, yeah. It's the whole Grasp/Sunfire/Visage/IBG core that's an issue. It's just that all the other tanks that are abusing it have been around long enough that they've been nerfed. Ekko hasn't gone through that period where the balance team has been looking to nerf him and as a result is more overtuned than the already problem lineup. neither of them has close to ekko winrate tho, they overbuffed him when he was already popular in soloQ and played in tournaments from time to time wasnt he nerfed so nobody ever played him in the jungle again?
yea, on launch his ult returned a static % of health lost over the last 4 seconds, the nerf in question attached an ap ratio requiring full ap builds to reach the original rank 3 heal. But he has received like 2-3 patches of buff in 2016 because riot wanted to bring him back to the meta as ap, but I can't see that ever happening unless his numbers are overtuned.
On April 11 2016 00:37 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 10:33 Gahlo wrote:On April 10 2016 10:08 JazzVortical wrote:
In addition, IBG is getting a nerf on PBE as well, so that will hurt Ekko as well.
It's not just tank Ekko. Ekko in general is a terrible design. Too much CC to be given proper assassin damage, if they buff his damage, he's going to have way too much CC to go with it. I don't see how he's ever going to be 'healthy'. It all comes down to whether or not Riot has the balls to remove some of those CC mechanics. Still, I'd rather be in a world where we're complaining about AP Ekko instead of Tank Ekko. Ekko in general though has 3/4 of an awesome kit. Just his wierd delayed bubble stun. He could be Jax-like or Zeddy.
actually to be honest from my perspective fwiw as an assassin player Ekko would have to be pretty op to be desirable as a (tryhard) choice(I say tryhard because he is fun). And the main reasons are his ult and his Q, Ekko just delivers his damage far too slowly, his q doing so much more damage on return and his ult basically requiring your opponent to be stunned or play themselves to do damage just aren't suited to an assassin. I understand that Riot wanted you to make the choice of escape or damage, like there is with Talon ult, do I do damage with both parts, one part, do I use it to get in? but for Ekko this is far less of a choice than they might hope, more often the choice comes down to can I trick them into standing on the dude or no?
I'm not sure what to say about Ekko constructively, he's fun to play, but his kit only makes sense to me to get in and stay in, so if people can't stand watching him as a tank I'm not sure what you can do with him.
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On April 11 2016 02:58 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 22:45 Celial wrote:On April 10 2016 21:38 kongoline wrote:On April 10 2016 12:26 Gahlo wrote:On April 10 2016 11:56 Frolossus wrote:
it has way more to do with grasp of the undying than any particular character imo Well, yeah. It's the whole Grasp/Sunfire/Visage/IBG core that's an issue. It's just that all the other tanks that are abusing it have been around long enough that they've been nerfed. Ekko hasn't gone through that period where the balance team has been looking to nerf him and as a result is more overtuned than the already problem lineup. neither of them has close to ekko winrate tho, they overbuffed him when he was already popular in soloQ and played in tournaments from time to time wasnt he nerfed so nobody ever played him in the jungle again? yea, on launch his ult returned a static % of health lost over the last 4 seconds, the nerf in question attached an ap ratio requiring full ap builds to reach the original rank 3 heal. But he has received like 2-3 patches of buff in 2016 because riot wanted to bring him back to the meta as ap, but I can't see that ever happening unless his numbers are overtuned.
Super squishy burst casters with no escapes are just kind of a dumb concept >.>
He'd just turn into an ap talon or something
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the traditional mage archtype is a dumb concept right okay there chief
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with the exception he has slows,shield, aoe stun, escape mechanic + mobility, dont forget safe laning and wave clear thx to his Q
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yea I agree completely, except I think he's worse than Talon when you build damage for the reasons I added to my previous post.
@killerdog
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On April 11 2016 03:12 Slayer91 wrote:
the traditional mage archtype is a dumb concept right okay there chief
In the way League is currently balanced and played, it might very well be.
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yeah they'll buff one item after nerfing SV/Bveil and you'll be like holy shit mages are op
remember when everyone played double AP because spirit visage gave like 30 magic resist and maw was garbage?
oh look everyones playing tanks who are the natural counter to mages without escape no shit they aren't viable right now
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On April 11 2016 02:58 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 22:45 Celial wrote:On April 10 2016 21:38 kongoline wrote:On April 10 2016 12:26 Gahlo wrote:On April 10 2016 11:56 Frolossus wrote:
it has way more to do with grasp of the undying than any particular character imo Well, yeah. It's the whole Grasp/Sunfire/Visage/IBG core that's an issue. It's just that all the other tanks that are abusing it have been around long enough that they've been nerfed. Ekko hasn't gone through that period where the balance team has been looking to nerf him and as a result is more overtuned than the already problem lineup. neither of them has close to ekko winrate tho, they overbuffed him when he was already popular in soloQ and played in tournaments from time to time wasnt he nerfed so nobody ever played him in the jungle again? yea, on launch his ult returned a static % of health lost over the last 4 seconds, the nerf in question attached an ap ratio requiring full ap builds to reach the original rank 3 heal. But he has received like 2-3 patches of buff in 2016 because riot wanted to bring him back to the meta as ap, but I can't see that ever happening unless his numbers are overtuned. Show nested quote +On April 11 2016 00:37 cLutZ wrote:On April 10 2016 10:33 Gahlo wrote:On April 10 2016 10:08 JazzVortical wrote:
In addition, IBG is getting a nerf on PBE as well, so that will hurt Ekko as well.
It's not just tank Ekko. Ekko in general is a terrible design. Too much CC to be given proper assassin damage, if they buff his damage, he's going to have way too much CC to go with it. I don't see how he's ever going to be 'healthy'. It all comes down to whether or not Riot has the balls to remove some of those CC mechanics. Still, I'd rather be in a world where we're complaining about AP Ekko instead of Tank Ekko. Ekko in general though has 3/4 of an awesome kit. Just his wierd delayed bubble stun. He could be Jax-like or Zeddy. actually to be honest from my perspective fwiw as an assassin player Ekko would have to be pretty op to be desirable as a (tryhard) choice(I say tryhard because he is fun). And the main reasons are his ult and his Q, Ekko just delivers his damage far too slowly, his q doing so much more damage on return and his ult basically requiring your opponent to be stunned or play themselves to do damage just aren't suited to an assassin. I understand that Riot wanted you to make the choice of escape or damage, like there is with Talon ult, do I do damage with both parts, one part, do I use it to get in? but for Ekko this is far less of a choice than they might hope, more often the choice comes down to can I trick them into standing on the dude or no? I'm not sure what to say about Ekko constructively, he's fun to play, but his kit only makes sense to me to get in and stay in, so if people can't stand watching him as a tank I'm not sure what you can do with him.
That's why I think of him more as a Jax. But with poke and decent waveclear, so he should lose duels to Jax (basically everyone should, by the way, Riot should remember that tenet of champ design). Who isn't really much of an assassin, and more of a splitpusher+cleanup skimisher. Some sort of Nashors+Gunblade core then tanky and prolly eventually mixing in Zhonyas.
I hope they get him right, one of my favorite characters.
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But all the mages viable in that meta had shittons of extra survivability added to their kits?
Point was super squishy melee burst dudes without escapes aren't viable in league, that's why they had to give Ekko so much extra bullshit.
edit: look at Illaoi, that's the closest Riot got and it's a champ that will never be balanced for comp play
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Meta mages with no escapes or shields
-Karthus
-Cassio
-Xerath
-TF
-Syndra
-Kennen
With 1 shield but no escapes:
-Lux
-Orianna
-Viktor
-Rumble
That's basically about half the mages on the list of league champs (some of which realistically are junglers or supports or bruiser mages like ryze or swain or vlad, so really most of the mages), we've seen them all in many metas of pro play
and just because some of these might buy a RoA or Rylais hardly makes them not a mage
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I much rather Ekko be balanced/reworked as a tank like gragas was. His ult fits much better as a tank. I think they should just get rid of all these stupid extra passives and limit it to just the 3 hit proc. Balance his stun for a tank and he will be fine.
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Was kinda talking about melees, but w/e. Rumble would fit that bill, but he's basically been an ultbot for midgame dragonfights whenever he was meta. Can't really call that mage archetype.
Thought it was pretty obvious that I didn't mean Vik and Ori etc had no place in league, lol. More talking about stuff like Ekko, just like kdog.
But saying we've sen karthus, xerath and syndra are seen in many metas of pro play is also stretching.
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On April 11 2016 07:53 Slayer91 wrote:
Meta mages with no escapes or shields
-Karthus
-Cassio
-Xerath
-TF
-Syndra
-Kennen
With 1 shield but no escapes:
-Lux
-Orianna
-Viktor
-Rumble
That's basically about half the mages on the list of league champs (some of which realistically are junglers or supports or bruiser mages like ryze or swain or vlad, so really most of the mages), we've seen them all in many metas of pro play
and just because some of these might buy a RoA or Rylais hardly makes them not a mage
Toot pls, the issue isn't dashless mages, it's immobile mages who have to literally melee auto the enemy to deal proper damage.
If you have to build ekko as completely full ap burst, then you'll just end up in a situation where he either completely oneshots the enemy, or he fails to oneshot them and just dies. What the list of long ranges pick/aoe/poke mages you just listed has to do with anything I'm not sure. That's like saying talon is good design because Jayce doesn't have an escape dash >.>
With the way his kit is right now, if you build squishy there isn't really any incentive to use the ult defensively in teamfights, since you're giving up such a large portion of your overall damage, and the health regen is kinda irrelevant too because unless you build bruiser you'll just get popped anyway the second you've used your combo if the enemy isn't dead already. And if you're allowed to build tanky and play him as someone who can actually engage and use his ult as a reengage tool, then you get the horrible play patterns we see right now.
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EPT
