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On February 14 2016 02:16 Volband wrote:
Warding power got gutted, but supports got buffed. AP ratios and new items. Harder to carry low elo games I guess, where you only had to ward their entire jungle, and your guys just could not throw, or could catch the enemy, because their support did not even know there is a sweeper/oracle.
I think support dropped off at all levels. the champions got stronger, the role got weaker. season 3 we had supports making big impacts in professional play. most of our "star" supports broke out in season 3, support picks drew bans, even critically during worlds the bans against tabe are huge, and people did their best to knock supports out of the comfort zone in competitive play, because they dictated a lot of the game back then.
nowadays supports feel like a crappy solo laner with a more predictable map presence than a jungler. they do more in 1v1's, but less for the game. I remember supports and mid laners were the top two roles represented in korean challenger in season 3. now i think it's top +mid, i know mid dropped off a bit, but i don't think it's below adc yet.
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it's also a lot harder to create a gold disparity between you and your direct counterpart, nowdays support gold is more dictated by the game clock than how well you are doing.
at least thats how it feels to me playing it.
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For everyone except top level organised play supports are significantly stronger than s3. Unless you are REALLY good warding doesn't matter much. There are exceptions like fiddle that make warding important but they are few.
It is similar to the myth where people think that duoing bot lane makes you win more and shit while the only difference is you are getting a non retard. Communication matters only if you use it properly and the difference between playing with a random competent player and someone you know isn't big.
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On February 14 2016 02:56 Slusher wrote:
it's also a lot harder to create a gold disparity between you and your direct counterpart, nowdays support gold is more dictated by the game clock than how well you are doing.
at least thats how it feels to me playing it.
This is true as well.
the best supports would have an item.
it sounds laughable, but that first item is a big deal. if i have an aegis/bulwark it meant that my top or jungle (most often jungle) could buy another item, and that rippled to the solo lanes and created this disproportionate gain for my team. We could adjust support items from that meta by creating small cost items for supports to purchase when they couldn't get a huge swing of a bulwark., they could buy "frost queen's claim" a 900-1200 gold item that is just 50% mana regen and the ghost active.
instead we went the opposite with league, created a big gold gain, passively, and through items, to give all units roughly the same goals for items, the big, end game ones.
The poorest 2 people on your team nowadays gains passive gold the fastest, they also gain passive gold from Gold gain items as it's usually the support or jungler, whether the passive gold is from frost queen or the coin or whatever, or it's from the jungle item's bonus gold, both are limited by the same thing, time. not efficacy. With global gold taken off the map in the form of dragons, and tower gold shifted toward the people the take the tower, a support has to be everywhere to take advantage of the global gold to get ahead, OR as is often the case in league, you shift that income onto your carries, as items scale incredibly well. this leaves the support in a position where the best thing you can do for your team is create the circumstance for them to do the work. which means you are inherently more reliant on them.
even time is reliant on your teammates. supports cannot stall in this game (outside of maybe janna), they cannot wave clear well, they cannot defend towers well, the game's pace is chosen from your team, and by proxy, the amount of money your support gets to use.
The support cannot through self sacrifice increase map control, you are limited in warding, and cannot rush 9 (Unless zil with XP runes) for a blue trinket to try to break that limit, at the cost of vision denial. The support is flotsam, raised by the tides and lowered by them, they can sometimes matter, but they need the team desperately to follow through or their efforts are wasted.
On February 14 2016 03:00 nafta wrote:
For everyone except top level organised play supports are significantly stronger than s3. Unless you are REALLY good warding doesn't matter much. There are exceptions like fiddle that make warding important but they are few.
It is similar to the myth where people think that duoing bot lane makes you win more and shit while the only difference is you are getting a non retard. Communication matters only if you use it properly and the difference between playing with a random competent player and someone you know isn't big.
Again I think there is an important line to be drawn between supports, and the support role.
as an extreme example, if you give a support equal gold to the highest gold team member, that support is stronger. but the role, what they are asked to do, isn't greater. they can just do so more easily.
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The average support wouldn't be stronger since that is the whole point of support. You pick champs that are good without gold.
If you are playing a champion that doesn't do damage of course you can't solo carry unless your team shows signs of life. Is this supposed to be bad?
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On February 14 2016 03:10 nafta wrote:
The average support wouldn't be stronger since that is the whole point of support. You pick champs that are good without gold.
If you are playing a champion that doesn't do damage of course you can't solo carry unless your team shows signs of life. Is this supposed to be bad?
Look at what the support role was asked to do season 3:
1.Give up last hit gold
2. buy GP10 items for the purposes of funding wards
3. use those wards to control dangerous territory (enemy jungle, behind lane towers that would be the focus of a push effort, control dragon/baron)
4. Protect the carry through early levels
5. Defend against fast push or enable your own fash push, depending on the draft
6. Roam to coordinate with your jungler
7. Defend the carry from assassination (from a much more powerful champion than yours)
8. Initiate fights with CC if possible
9. Any gold earned should be spent on team items
10. Secure fights over dragon or baron by warding and threats of CC/initiation
11. do all of this with 1/4 the gold of your partners
the penalties of failing this is you feed the enemy team and snowball the game against you. the reward is to stonewall the other team entirely and prevent them from being able to get a foothold.
Nowadays you do 1, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10. The penalty for failure is. having to wait longer to be as useful. the reward for success is control over part of the map and successfully stalling for late game.
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I don't see why you have to wait longer to be useful. With there being less wards you just have to use less wards to do a similar job rather than buying 10 and placing them everywhere like a monkey. You just have to roam more to create pressure rather than just by putting down wards.
This is the time with the shortest game times we have ever had how is stalling for lategame your reward?
Sure if you played vs some random retard who doesn't play support you could abuse him more but that only matters when your direct opponent doesn't play the role. You can still smash lane and outroam very hard so I honestly don't see what the problem is as someone who has played support for 5 years.
Support losing influence gives it to the other roles which were weaker. Top lane and ad in s3 really didn't matter that much. Now it is much fairer.
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On February 14 2016 03:26 nafta wrote:
I don't see why you have to wait longer to be useful. With there being less wards you just have to use less wards to do a similar job rather than buying 10 and placing them everywhere like a monkey. You just have to roam more to create pressure rather than just by putting down wards.
This is the time with the shortest game times we have ever had how is stalling for lategame your reward?
Sure if you played vs some random retard who doesn't play support you could abuse him more but that only matters when your direct opponent doesn't play the role. You can still smash lane and outroam very hard so I honestly don't see what the problem is as someone who has played support for 5 years.
my role of support is more based on the current patch of competitive play at the highest level. not the duskblade meta that has yet to shift competitive.it's unfair to speculate on the duskblade meta level of support when we have zero competitive games with it, and dynamic queue is a completely different beast that has little or no meaning for the role of supports competitively.
On February 14 2016 03:26 nafta wrote:
Support losing influence gives it to the other roles which were weaker. Top lane and ad in s3 really didn't matter that much. Now it is much fairer.
I have no interest in fairness between roles. if every role is equal at all times, then every role is meaningless at all times.
I'm commenting on the role of support. how top or AD exist doesn't change the lessening of the role. Yeah top might be more meaningful, though i'd definitively argue that the strength of your ADC in season 3 as as important as it is currently (in pre duskblade competitive meta).
however not dying is as much as a skill as snowballing. and as the two primary victims of mid lane in season 3, your ability to not die, and contribute with huge restrictions (spacing and mechanical speed for adc, and map awareness and gold for support) lead to a greater disparity in skill level, and a better game, in my opinion.
Without a large amount of failure and risk, accomplishment is lessened. If i walk in a straight line without falling that someone draws on the sidewalk it's neat at best. if i walk between two buildings on a tightrope without falling it's incredible, because so many others would fail. with less difficulty, with less risk and room for failure, less restrictions, there is less room to prove your superiority. the bar for what is good moves closer to what is good enough.
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Well if it is less interesting to watch for you unlucky. But for me at least watching an actual team game where everyone has similar influence level is a lot more interesting than watching people drag corpses.
And you are really overrating the difficulty of support. In s2/3 there were just very few people who even played the role. The majority of our players were people who didn't make it in other roles and were relegated to support because the team wanted to keep them.
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On February 14 2016 03:37 nafta wrote:
Well if it is less interesting to watch for you unlucky. But for me at least watching an actual team game where everyone has similar influence level is a lot more interesting than watching people drag corpses.
I prefer that we be amazed by the accomplishments of the greats, than to see the same show over and over with the differences being who controlled their limited ward supply around an objective with the most accuracy, as was often the case in competitive play so far this season.
When the emphasis is on team play, not individual play, there is less excitement, like amazement. it's okay that you prefer the game where coordination in more important than execution, but i miss those days where failure had consequences beyond just waiting for the next opportunity.
For an example, the supports at S3 worlds were:
SwordArt, Cain, Tabe, LemonNation, Tgee, Xpecial, Bloodwater, Inspirro, Mata, PoohManDu, Yellowstar, Mithy, Voidle, bigpomelo
The supports that made it to the quarter finals were: Yellowstar, Cain, Tabe, PoohmanDu.
It's not just coincidence that these were the four best supports at the tournament by a good margin.
Compare to junglers:
Pool: Winds, watch, Lucky, Meteos, Kaigu, TheOddOne, Xmithie, Alunir, DanDy, bengi, Cyanide, dexter1, diamondprox, Lovelin
The quarter final junglers: Cyanide, watch, Lucky, bengi.
2 of the top 4 junglers at the tournament.
Even mid lane was missing some of the best at the tournament, DaDe did not make top 4. in season 3 the best supports correlated the highest with placement at worlds.
I miss that sort of discrepancy in the role.
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I don't know about Cain, but those were also 3 of the best bot lanes in the world to be fair. As a support main (ish) I won't take anything away from any of them though. 
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Yea I still remember that legendary yellowstar/puszu lane or the godly annie 1 trick that reached the finals :D
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PX did you just call S3 Yellowstar better than Mata or are did you just forget about him while making your point.
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On February 14 2016 05:34 nafta wrote:
Yea I still remember that legendary yellowstar/puszu lane or the godly annie 1 trick that reached the finals :D
Interesting you call tabe a one trick for playing annie twice in the bracket stage, but also sona, zyra, lulu. the only other supports that were picked were cain's thresh when it didnt get banned from him, and nami, mostly by Poohmandu.
On February 14 2016 05:46 Fildun wrote:
PX did you just call S3 Yellowstar better than Mata or are did you just forget about him while making your point.
Mata played really badly at worlds that year. He was not one of the best supports at that tournament.
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On February 14 2016 05:47 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2016 05:34 nafta wrote:
Yea I still remember that legendary yellowstar/puszu lane or the godly annie 1 trick that reached the finals :D Interesting you call tabe a one trick for playing annie twice in the bracket stage, but also sona, zyra, lulu. the only other supports that were picked were cain's thresh when it didnt get banned from him, and nami, mostly by Poohmandu.
Fenix also picks a lot of different champions.
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On February 14 2016 05:34 nafta wrote:
Yea I still remember that legendary yellowstar/puszu lane or the godly annie 1 trick that reached the finals :D
shoot, my memory is bad then, my b
for some reason i was thinking rekkles/yellow, pooh/piglet, uzi/tabe
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On February 14 2016 05:47 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2016 05:34 nafta wrote:
Yea I still remember that legendary yellowstar/puszu lane or the godly annie 1 trick that reached the finals :D Interesting you call tabe a one trick for playing annie twice in the bracket stage, but also sona, zyra, lulu. the only other supports that were picked were cain's thresh when it didnt get banned from him, and nami, mostly by Poohmandu. Show nested quote +On February 14 2016 05:46 Fildun wrote:
PX did you just call S3 Yellowstar better than Mata or are did you just forget about him while making your point. Mata played really badly at worlds that year. He was not one of the best supports at that tournament.
Oh yeah, just talking about the tournament that makes a bit of sense. Still it sounds like a really small sample size for these kind of statements.
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On February 14 2016 05:52 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2016 05:47 PrinceXizor wrote:On February 14 2016 05:34 nafta wrote:
Yea I still remember that legendary yellowstar/puszu lane or the godly annie 1 trick that reached the finals :D Interesting you call tabe a one trick for playing annie twice in the bracket stage, but also sona, zyra, lulu. the only other supports that were picked were cain's thresh when it didnt get banned from him, and nami, mostly by Poohmandu. On February 14 2016 05:46 Fildun wrote:
PX did you just call S3 Yellowstar better than Mata or are did you just forget about him while making your point. Mata played really badly at worlds that year. He was not one of the best supports at that tournament. Oh yeah, just talking about the tournament that makes a bit of sense. Still it sounds like a really small sample size for these kind of statements.
During the season Support plays were huge as well, Madlife didn't even make worlds. but I used worlds as an example because while you could argue population of supports is why the best supports often won games in regular season games, the top teams had most of the top supports in the worlds (the exceptions being over qualifying regions, like NA and the wildcard).
But if you want an example of how bad Mata played at worlds he averaged 5+ deaths per game.seemingly most of any support in his group from a glance.
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anyone tried skarner with Runic Echo? friend says its basically udyr but is never banned or picked
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On February 14 2016 03:41 PrinceXizor wrote:
It's not just coincidence that these were the four best supports at the tournament by a good margin.
Unless you're ready to make a far more sweeping statement about every outcome in S3, that's exactly what a coincidence is.
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EPT
