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You don't get 10 seconds unless your opponent sits there ignoring you, since you lose one second per instance of damage (anything with DoTs will only give you ~half spirit duration).
You're talking about maxing CDR and W and getting 10 seconds to get 3-4 W hits off someone, so level 10+ and at least 2 items focused on CDR (core should be Gauntlet/Sterak's unless against primarily magic damage, you'd need something specific like Gauntlet+Kindlegem+runes to hit 40% CDR).
Oh, and your opponent is standing in range to get hit by W and the tentacles, but isn't hitting you so the spirit doesn't get a reduced duration either.
At level 9, you're missing out on 0.4 AD per tentacle swing (Q, W, tentacles in range when grabbing a spirit, or after casting ult, vessel tentacles spawning).
I said that Illaoi can't oneshot the wave with tentacles unless building damage (BC) and maxing Q, which means that your argument for waveclear falls flat since W won't help you clear at all (less tentacle damage, and reliant on wall tentacles). But waste our time with asinine "hurr durr you say you build 2 items at 1-item timing" non-arguments, I'm sure that'll help the debate.
You're Illaoi.
- You don't fight away from tentacles, and you don't try to chase because you suck at this and you won't have tentacles nearby if the enemy turns around or the jungler comes
- You can't walk up to ranged champions and hit them with your 350 range W without taking harass and you have no follow-up. Your only ranged interaction if they don't get hit by E is your Q (which has a 66% higher downtime if not maxed first).
- You don't E somebody when there isn't at least one tentacle nearby, so in the coming fight W will trigger tentacle swings.
- Assuming you position and time your abilities properly, the damage from your AoE abilities in a lane trade is increased by 35+% from the spirit "echo."
- A spirit likely won't last longer than 6 seconds, meaning one Q even with CDR, and 3 Ws at best (you don't Q as soon as the spirit appears or you won't hit both targets, and you wait for your opponent to come in range before you W too).
Given all this, you don't fucking max W because it gives you a reduced cd that you're unlikely to use outside of E trades, and 20 damage vs 10% AD, which becomes 20 damage per level of W vs 13.5% AD per level of Q if you hit the spirit.
That's on top of any stray Q hit you may have in lane, tentacles hit when you get a vessel off, the automatic tentacle swing when you hit someone with E or ult, all of each are 0.1 AD per tentacle per swing, where it doesn't matter what level your W is.
And W max won't do shit in a ranged match-up.
Have you played her? How many games? And against which match-ups? Because Pantheon isn't Nidalee.
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On February 07 2016 17:39 MattBarry wrote:
I know the league community hates Kat but man could she use some buffs. I can't even beat Zed in lane anymore this season
i think she needs killer instinct back to ever have a chance again
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Alaric. fucking LOL dude. you complain "oh hitting it that many times requires a couple items and blah blah blah" meanwhile claiming that 10% of your total AD is worth it over 20 damage straight up on 1 item (its not, unless that item is a 75 AD item or you are high enough level that discussions about which ability you max first are meaningless illaoi +BC hits that break even point at lvl 18 FYI + or - levels based on masteries/runes) making claims like hitting 2+ tentacles per trade, while rejecting hitting people with tentacles with W. Dude. you create an ideal circumstance for your own argument and then reject even a moderate circumstance for mine. Try maxing W. win more games. it's okay.
If you hit even only ONE extra tentacle with W max it's still better than hitting 3 tentacles with Q max. 120+10xlevel > up to 120% AD from maxing Q (40% x 3). Though in reality you can probably sneak in 4-5 extra tentacle hits over the course of the laning phase. You've argued that you somehow need to rush Gauntlet, and also get a free BC out of no where for clear speed sake.
Illaoi clears a wave in 2 tentacles. period. Even if you go AD you have to go very high AD to clear in 1 tent. i'm talking multiple AD items quickly. It doesn't change your waveclear to max W. period. It improves your 1v1 and laning (except vs lanes you can't possibly 1 v 1 them even with Q max).Period. it improves your level 6 all in. 40 extra damage every 2 seconds for 8 seconds is 160 damage, you'd need to hit someone with a tentacle 6 times to make up that damage at 6 with an AD build, because the difference is 20% AD per tentacle at rank 3 Q, illoai has 80 base AD, and if you have 20 from other sources (dorans, Runes/masteries) that means that you need 8 tentacles for a tankier build.
Thats impossible to argue, because you'll NEVER get 3 consecutive tentacle slaps from 3 tentacles in a lvl 6 all in, you'd be lucky to get one, miraculous to get 2, 3 requires an afk opponent, and you certainly will never get 4 tentacle slaps in a row from 2 tentacles during the lvl 6 all in. no one stands still that much.
So you are saying, when you have 2-3 items, and you are team fighting, you'd rather have Q max than W max. yeah, thats when Q max timing is stronger. i agree. but i'd rather have the better laning and win those fights anyway because illaoi just does that Q max or not, than to win those fights 3-4 seconds faster because i maxed Q.
Unless you play illaoi like a mage i guess and only ever use Q. then max it because you don't do anything but use it. doesn't make it the better way to play though.
Think about how strong you get when you ult, and your tentacles are slapping every couple seconds. thats W max illaoi with 30% cdr at level 9-13.
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You don't even try. You pick bits of my posts and draw your conclusions out of them while throwing context out the window, you spin things your way, and then you accuse me of nonsense.
Just have fun by yourself.
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Ladies and gentleman, a person who realized he couldn't argue with math, after only 4-5 posts.
RE:Katarina
I think kat is fine numbers wise. She'll never get to the point in a safety first meta like this where she is usable, unless she's horribly horribly broken, and i'm talking like 0 chance to prevent it kills or multiple charges on her E so she has no risks. What kat needs is to have higher rewards from the kills she gets so she can keep ahead. Whether this is through like a passive buff similar to draven's (maybe XP based, i dunno), or because the game systems change to reward kills more than not-deaths, is up to riot.
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i have decided i dislike the new ranked system its either play as 5 or play by yourself anything in between is just asking to not get your role or be stuck with toxic retards. atleast if you are by yourself chances are u will run into a 4 stack u can jump on with after a game or 2
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 08 2016 19:09 IamPryda wrote:
i have decided i dislike the new ranked system its either play as 5 or play by yourself anything in between is just asking to not get your role or be stuck with toxic retards. atleast if you are by yourself chances are u will run into a 4 stack u can jump on with after a game or 2
Yes, because as we all know, the old ranked system was really the best at making sure you get your role. And wasn't it nice, how it made sure you never had to be stuck with "toxic retards"? Oh how I long for those days, when people would come to Reddit or LiquidLegends, and boast about how they always got their desired role, because they always queued with chivalrous gentlemen who were all willing to fill, and never fed, and never complained about you feeding, and were paragons of teamwork and skill. Man, those were the days.
Oh wait, no, actually, exactly the opposite.
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Honestly I can't wait for a few months to pass to actually compare average game quality difference compared to last season. Not enough people with enough games played yet.
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On February 08 2016 04:53 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2016 17:39 MattBarry wrote:
I know the league community hates Kat but man could she use some buffs. I can't even beat Zed in lane anymore this season i think she needs killer instinct back to ever have a chance again
I miss old Kat, her old shunpo animation was so much better. Also wow how nostalgic, Req and PrinceXizor posting again.
On February 08 2016 19:09 IamPryda wrote:
i have decided i dislike the new ranked system its either play as 5 or play by yourself anything in between is just asking to not get your role or be stuck with toxic retards. atleast if you are by yourself chances are u will run into a 4 stack u can jump on with after a game or 2
Only thing I dislike about dynamic queue is I'm becoming increasingly convinced if you 3 or 4 man queue, the remaining teammates are 10 ton weights. Also I can't look at champions when it isn't my pick- super annoying
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On February 08 2016 23:11 MattBarry wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2016 04:53 Frolossus wrote:On February 07 2016 17:39 MattBarry wrote:
I know the league community hates Kat but man could she use some buffs. I can't even beat Zed in lane anymore this season i think she needs killer instinct back to ever have a chance again I miss old Kat, her old shunpo animation was so much better. Also wow how nostalgic, Req and PrinceXizor posting again. Show nested quote +On February 08 2016 19:09 IamPryda wrote:
i have decided i dislike the new ranked system its either play as 5 or play by yourself anything in between is just asking to not get your role or be stuck with toxic retards. atleast if you are by yourself chances are u will run into a 4 stack u can jump on with after a game or 2 Only thing I dislike about dynamic queue is I'm becoming increasingly convinced if you 3 or 4 man queue, the remaining teammates are 10 ton weights. Also I can't look at champions when it isn't my pick- super annoying
thats only natural. If you assume only good people want to queue together and then all the shitters are the leftovers, thats what happens unless both premades roles align. One of your solos is bound to be against a top/jungle or mid/jungle premade or something.
like its super easy to coordinate ganks with one of my duos when we are in the same room LOL like the other top has zero chance regardless of how good he is
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Bad people queue together all the time.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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that's hilarious.
i doubt it's a serious post but i got a good laugh
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Ehh, dynamic queue matchmaking is what it is. It's not stellar, but it's passable.
The pick/ban and client interaction on the other hand actually gives me cancer. Spend 5+ minutes in pick ban phase for one moron to not lock-in or for someone to not ban, or for someone to tab out and not have the client pop back in focus, etc. Pls fix.
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
On February 09 2016 01:01 Lost My Will To Live wrote:
Ehh, dynamic queue matchmaking is what it is. It's not stellar, but it's passable.
The pick/ban and client interaction on the other hand actually gives me cancer. Spend 5+ minutes in pick ban phase for one moron to not lock-in or for someone to not ban, or for someone to tab out and not have the client pop back in focus, etc. Pls fix.
This happens in like every 2nd queue I join. Sometimes it even takes 5-6 lobbies to pass to start an actual game, it is frustrating, indeed.
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I'd prefer having trouble getting into game than having lousy games. My game quality set itself on fire and jumped off a cliff into a toxic waste dump with jagged pointy things after dynamic queue. I haven't been banned because I keep it cool ingame, but sometimes I praise the lord I was smart enough not to spend money on this game.
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Meanwhile, the people I used to play with (in normals, I haven't touched dynamic queue and they were around Silver I while I was Gold I so didn't duo with them) are singing its praises and saying it makes you play better.
I pointed out that being in the mood for tryharding is what makes them play better, coordinate more and pay more attention to stuff, which although it can be triggered by playing ranked as a full stack for them, isn't specific to dynamic queue existing.
But they're playing pre-determined comps in a specific way and it works well for them, I haven't checked but I think they're already Gold or sprinting toward it.
I'm waiting to see what happens if they start queueing as 2~4 though, because I suspect there are as many people doing like them as there are people jumping into ranked because they can do it with their friends, but playing as "casually" as in normals, so obviously tryharding is going to "boost" them ahead, and so they're having a lot of success.
However having 5 people isn't the same as "dynamic queue" in general, and the only difference with ranked 5s on paper is the larger player pool.
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On February 09 2016 02:10 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2016 01:21 739 wrote:On February 09 2016 01:01 Lost My Will To Live wrote:
Ehh, dynamic queue matchmaking is what it is. It's not stellar, but it's passable.
The pick/ban and client interaction on the other hand actually gives me cancer. Spend 5+ minutes in pick ban phase for one moron to not lock-in or for someone to not ban, or for someone to tab out and not have the client pop back in focus, etc. Pls fix. This happens in like every 2nd queue I join. Sometimes it even takes 5-6 lobbies to pass to start an actual game, it is frustrating, indeed. U guys have awful luck. First week or so that happened often. Now I would say it happens less to me than before with last pick dodging because they didn't get roll they wanted.
I'm pretty sure the rate of this happening increases a lot the higher you climb. from plat up you get really long queues so you are more likely to grab a drink or go to the bathroom or watch something on youtube while waiting for 5 minutes on the low end or 10-30 minutes at the high end.
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EPT
