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On July 05 2015 14:11 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 13:40 DystopiaX wrote:On July 05 2015 13:17 iCanada wrote:On July 05 2015 09:39 Disengaged wrote:
Yep. You can easily tell that having Hai back had an immediate effect. The best way I've seen someone describe Hai and his shotcalling is that hes like a taskmaster. When he makes a call he expects people to follow it and people do. C9 looked more like C9 that one game then they have all split and that was also the best game they played all split as well.
If Meteos comes back, which I get the feeling that he isn't, then he should be taking notes and be learning on what makes Hai such a good shotcaller.
Still, this whole situation makes me much less of a fan of Meteos with how he can just abandon his team like this. He wasn't the only one that was suffereing. I dont think meteos will ever be a Hai-like shotcaller. He just isn't that guy. that and Hai is easily the best shotcaller in NALCS, you don't suddenly become the best at something after a couple months of starting to do it. He is quite clearly the best shotcaller in any region ever.
I don't think you can prove that but I don't think it's far-fetched to say he's been the best in the west.
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On July 05 2015 14:21 Ethelis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 14:11 cLutZ wrote:On July 05 2015 13:40 DystopiaX wrote:On July 05 2015 13:17 iCanada wrote:On July 05 2015 09:39 Disengaged wrote:
Yep. You can easily tell that having Hai back had an immediate effect. The best way I've seen someone describe Hai and his shotcalling is that hes like a taskmaster. When he makes a call he expects people to follow it and people do. C9 looked more like C9 that one game then they have all split and that was also the best game they played all split as well.
If Meteos comes back, which I get the feeling that he isn't, then he should be taking notes and be learning on what makes Hai such a good shotcaller.
Still, this whole situation makes me much less of a fan of Meteos with how he can just abandon his team like this. He wasn't the only one that was suffereing. I dont think meteos will ever be a Hai-like shotcaller. He just isn't that guy. that and Hai is easily the best shotcaller in NALCS, you don't suddenly become the best at something after a couple months of starting to do it. He is quite clearly the best shotcaller in any region ever. I don't think you can prove that but I don't think it's far-fetched to say he's been the best in the west.
I can't "prove" it. But no other player has had a noticible (laning) upgrade replace him while hia team became much worse. Given what we are seeing out of the side lanes (meteos is merely a scapegoat), he elevated a Tier 3-4 team to a Tier 1.5 team.
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On July 05 2015 14:38 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 14:21 Ethelis wrote:On July 05 2015 14:11 cLutZ wrote:On July 05 2015 13:40 DystopiaX wrote:On July 05 2015 13:17 iCanada wrote:On July 05 2015 09:39 Disengaged wrote:
Yep. You can easily tell that having Hai back had an immediate effect. The best way I've seen someone describe Hai and his shotcalling is that hes like a taskmaster. When he makes a call he expects people to follow it and people do. C9 looked more like C9 that one game then they have all split and that was also the best game they played all split as well.
If Meteos comes back, which I get the feeling that he isn't, then he should be taking notes and be learning on what makes Hai such a good shotcaller.
Still, this whole situation makes me much less of a fan of Meteos with how he can just abandon his team like this. He wasn't the only one that was suffereing. I dont think meteos will ever be a Hai-like shotcaller. He just isn't that guy. that and Hai is easily the best shotcaller in NALCS, you don't suddenly become the best at something after a couple months of starting to do it. He is quite clearly the best shotcaller in any region ever. I don't think you can prove that but I don't think it's far-fetched to say he's been the best in the west. I can't "prove" it. But no other player has had a noticible (laning) upgrade replace him while hia team became much worse. Given what we are seeing out of the side lanes (meteos is merely a scapegoat), he elevated a Tier 3-4 team to a Tier 1.5 team.
Honestly I haven't watched a lot of C9 games this split, but from what I've seen, Incarnati0n has hardly been a "noticeable upgrade" as it was supposed to be.
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On July 05 2015 15:09 Ethelis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 14:38 cLutZ wrote:On July 05 2015 14:21 Ethelis wrote:On July 05 2015 14:11 cLutZ wrote:On July 05 2015 13:40 DystopiaX wrote:On July 05 2015 13:17 iCanada wrote:On July 05 2015 09:39 Disengaged wrote:
Yep. You can easily tell that having Hai back had an immediate effect. The best way I've seen someone describe Hai and his shotcalling is that hes like a taskmaster. When he makes a call he expects people to follow it and people do. C9 looked more like C9 that one game then they have all split and that was also the best game they played all split as well.
If Meteos comes back, which I get the feeling that he isn't, then he should be taking notes and be learning on what makes Hai such a good shotcaller.
Still, this whole situation makes me much less of a fan of Meteos with how he can just abandon his team like this. He wasn't the only one that was suffereing. I dont think meteos will ever be a Hai-like shotcaller. He just isn't that guy. that and Hai is easily the best shotcaller in NALCS, you don't suddenly become the best at something after a couple months of starting to do it. He is quite clearly the best shotcaller in any region ever. I don't think you can prove that but I don't think it's far-fetched to say he's been the best in the west. I can't "prove" it. But no other player has had a noticible (laning) upgrade replace him while hia team became much worse. Given what we are seeing out of the side lanes (meteos is merely a scapegoat), he elevated a Tier 3-4 team to a Tier 1.5 team. Honestly I haven't watched a lot of C9 games this split, but from what I've seen, Incarnati0n has hardly been a "noticeable upgrade" as it was supposed to be.
He loses lane just like Hai, except he cannot teamfight or shotcall.
I also nearly 100% sure that every time he is shown on camera in the LCS he has already wasted his whole mana bar. LOL.
He is basically Balls of mid lane; strong to decent laner if things go his way, but then he just kind of thorws the lead away and gets carried, or he is a complete passenger. IMO anyways.
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emergency roster change. really? hmm....
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On July 05 2015 14:38 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 14:21 Ethelis wrote:On July 05 2015 14:11 cLutZ wrote:On July 05 2015 13:40 DystopiaX wrote:On July 05 2015 13:17 iCanada wrote:On July 05 2015 09:39 Disengaged wrote:
Yep. You can easily tell that having Hai back had an immediate effect. The best way I've seen someone describe Hai and his shotcalling is that hes like a taskmaster. When he makes a call he expects people to follow it and people do. C9 looked more like C9 that one game then they have all split and that was also the best game they played all split as well.
If Meteos comes back, which I get the feeling that he isn't, then he should be taking notes and be learning on what makes Hai such a good shotcaller.
Still, this whole situation makes me much less of a fan of Meteos with how he can just abandon his team like this. He wasn't the only one that was suffereing. I dont think meteos will ever be a Hai-like shotcaller. He just isn't that guy. that and Hai is easily the best shotcaller in NALCS, you don't suddenly become the best at something after a couple months of starting to do it. He is quite clearly the best shotcaller in any region ever. I don't think you can prove that but I don't think it's far-fetched to say he's been the best in the west. I can't "prove" it. But no other player has had a noticible (laning) upgrade replace him while hia team became much worse. Given what we are seeing out of the side lanes (meteos is merely a scapegoat), he elevated a Tier 3-4 team to a Tier 1.5 team.
Most impactful shotcaller doesn't necessarily mean the best but Hai is certainly close to the top.
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On July 05 2015 14:11 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 13:40 DystopiaX wrote:On July 05 2015 13:17 iCanada wrote:On July 05 2015 09:39 Disengaged wrote:
Yep. You can easily tell that having Hai back had an immediate effect. The best way I've seen someone describe Hai and his shotcalling is that hes like a taskmaster. When he makes a call he expects people to follow it and people do. C9 looked more like C9 that one game then they have all split and that was also the best game they played all split as well.
If Meteos comes back, which I get the feeling that he isn't, then he should be taking notes and be learning on what makes Hai such a good shotcaller.
Still, this whole situation makes me much less of a fan of Meteos with how he can just abandon his team like this. He wasn't the only one that was suffereing. I dont think meteos will ever be a Hai-like shotcaller. He just isn't that guy. that and Hai is easily the best shotcaller in NALCS, you don't suddenly become the best at something after a couple months of starting to do it. He is quite clearly the best shotcaller in any region ever.
Well he made 2 calls that lost his team the game yesterday. First the baron which turned the game around, although you can also say it was execution fail. And then even worse that reengage at their t2 mid turret. Was so obvious that would not work out 4v4 with enemy team full health and Yasuo ult up. He went in anyway and C9 died 0-3, gave up 2 towers and inhib and lost game.
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On July 05 2015 16:44 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 15:09 Ethelis wrote:On July 05 2015 14:38 cLutZ wrote:On July 05 2015 14:21 Ethelis wrote:On July 05 2015 14:11 cLutZ wrote:On July 05 2015 13:40 DystopiaX wrote:On July 05 2015 13:17 iCanada wrote:On July 05 2015 09:39 Disengaged wrote:
Yep. You can easily tell that having Hai back had an immediate effect. The best way I've seen someone describe Hai and his shotcalling is that hes like a taskmaster. When he makes a call he expects people to follow it and people do. C9 looked more like C9 that one game then they have all split and that was also the best game they played all split as well.
If Meteos comes back, which I get the feeling that he isn't, then he should be taking notes and be learning on what makes Hai such a good shotcaller.
Still, this whole situation makes me much less of a fan of Meteos with how he can just abandon his team like this. He wasn't the only one that was suffereing. I dont think meteos will ever be a Hai-like shotcaller. He just isn't that guy. that and Hai is easily the best shotcaller in NALCS, you don't suddenly become the best at something after a couple months of starting to do it. He is quite clearly the best shotcaller in any region ever. I don't think you can prove that but I don't think it's far-fetched to say he's been the best in the west. I can't "prove" it. But no other player has had a noticible (laning) upgrade replace him while hia team became much worse. Given what we are seeing out of the side lanes (meteos is merely a scapegoat), he elevated a Tier 3-4 team to a Tier 1.5 team. Honestly I haven't watched a lot of C9 games this split, but from what I've seen, Incarnati0n has hardly been a "noticeable upgrade" as it was supposed to be. He loses lane just like Hai, except he cannot teamfight or shotcall. I also nearly 100% sure that every time he is shown on camera in the LCS he has already wasted his whole mana bar. LOL. He is basically Balls of mid lane; strong to decent laner if things go his way, but then he just kind of thorws the lead away and gets carried, or he is a complete passenger. IMO anyways.
The logic behind picking him over Pobelter was one of the worst I have ever seen.
On one hand you have Incarnation who was known as perhaps the best soloq player around S3, and around early S5 had a reputation of being a strong but not outstanding soloq player. He has no experience and his champ pool is limited in the sense that he is much better on assasins.
On the other hand you have Pobelter, whom today is also known to be a soloq god based on his korean ladder rankings, has experience playing on a team and performed better when scrimming with C9.
But C9 mysteriously picked Incarnation because they thought there was more "potential"??? But where does that potential come from? If he was by far the best soloq player on EUW, sure they might have a point, but I am pretty sure that wasn't the case post S3.
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On July 05 2015 21:11 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 16:44 iCanada wrote:On July 05 2015 15:09 Ethelis wrote:On July 05 2015 14:38 cLutZ wrote:On July 05 2015 14:21 Ethelis wrote:On July 05 2015 14:11 cLutZ wrote:On July 05 2015 13:40 DystopiaX wrote:On July 05 2015 13:17 iCanada wrote:On July 05 2015 09:39 Disengaged wrote:
Yep. You can easily tell that having Hai back had an immediate effect. The best way I've seen someone describe Hai and his shotcalling is that hes like a taskmaster. When he makes a call he expects people to follow it and people do. C9 looked more like C9 that one game then they have all split and that was also the best game they played all split as well.
If Meteos comes back, which I get the feeling that he isn't, then he should be taking notes and be learning on what makes Hai such a good shotcaller.
Still, this whole situation makes me much less of a fan of Meteos with how he can just abandon his team like this. He wasn't the only one that was suffereing. I dont think meteos will ever be a Hai-like shotcaller. He just isn't that guy. that and Hai is easily the best shotcaller in NALCS, you don't suddenly become the best at something after a couple months of starting to do it. He is quite clearly the best shotcaller in any region ever. I don't think you can prove that but I don't think it's far-fetched to say he's been the best in the west. I can't "prove" it. But no other player has had a noticible (laning) upgrade replace him while hia team became much worse. Given what we are seeing out of the side lanes (meteos is merely a scapegoat), he elevated a Tier 3-4 team to a Tier 1.5 team. Honestly I haven't watched a lot of C9 games this split, but from what I've seen, Incarnati0n has hardly been a "noticeable upgrade" as it was supposed to be. He loses lane just like Hai, except he cannot teamfight or shotcall. I also nearly 100% sure that every time he is shown on camera in the LCS he has already wasted his whole mana bar. LOL. He is basically Balls of mid lane; strong to decent laner if things go his way, but then he just kind of thorws the lead away and gets carried, or he is a complete passenger. IMO anyways. The logic behind picking him over Pobelter was one of the worst I have ever seen. On one hand you have Incarnation who was known as perhaps the best soloq player around S3, and around early S5 had a reputation of being a strong but not outstanding soloq player. He has no experience and his champ pool is limited in the sense that he is much better on assasins. On the other hand you have Pobelter, whom today is also known to be a soloq god based on his korean ladder rankings, has experience playing on a team and performed better when scrimming with C9. But C9 mysteriously picked Incarnation because they thought there was more "potential"??? But where does that potential come from? If he was by far the best soloq player on EUW, sure they might have a point, but I am pretty sure that wasn't the case post S3.
"Potential" for the same reason people here praise all kind of amateur and soloQ players. These "new faces" have not played on the highest level yet so their limitations have not been shown. Which gives people the opportunity to imagine all kind of unlikely scenarios
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On July 05 2015 21:15 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 21:11 Hider wrote:On July 05 2015 16:44 iCanada wrote:On July 05 2015 15:09 Ethelis wrote:On July 05 2015 14:38 cLutZ wrote:On July 05 2015 14:21 Ethelis wrote:On July 05 2015 14:11 cLutZ wrote:On July 05 2015 13:40 DystopiaX wrote:On July 05 2015 13:17 iCanada wrote:On July 05 2015 09:39 Disengaged wrote:
Yep. You can easily tell that having Hai back had an immediate effect. The best way I've seen someone describe Hai and his shotcalling is that hes like a taskmaster. When he makes a call he expects people to follow it and people do. C9 looked more like C9 that one game then they have all split and that was also the best game they played all split as well.
If Meteos comes back, which I get the feeling that he isn't, then he should be taking notes and be learning on what makes Hai such a good shotcaller.
Still, this whole situation makes me much less of a fan of Meteos with how he can just abandon his team like this. He wasn't the only one that was suffereing. I dont think meteos will ever be a Hai-like shotcaller. He just isn't that guy. that and Hai is easily the best shotcaller in NALCS, you don't suddenly become the best at something after a couple months of starting to do it. He is quite clearly the best shotcaller in any region ever. I don't think you can prove that but I don't think it's far-fetched to say he's been the best in the west. I can't "prove" it. But no other player has had a noticible (laning) upgrade replace him while hia team became much worse. Given what we are seeing out of the side lanes (meteos is merely a scapegoat), he elevated a Tier 3-4 team to a Tier 1.5 team. Honestly I haven't watched a lot of C9 games this split, but from what I've seen, Incarnati0n has hardly been a "noticeable upgrade" as it was supposed to be. He loses lane just like Hai, except he cannot teamfight or shotcall. I also nearly 100% sure that every time he is shown on camera in the LCS he has already wasted his whole mana bar. LOL. He is basically Balls of mid lane; strong to decent laner if things go his way, but then he just kind of thorws the lead away and gets carried, or he is a complete passenger. IMO anyways. The logic behind picking him over Pobelter was one of the worst I have ever seen. On one hand you have Incarnation who was known as perhaps the best soloq player around S3, and around early S5 had a reputation of being a strong but not outstanding soloq player. He has no experience and his champ pool is limited in the sense that he is much better on assasins. On the other hand you have Pobelter, whom today is also known to be a soloq god based on his korean ladder rankings, has experience playing on a team and performed better when scrimming with C9. But C9 mysteriously picked Incarnation because they thought there was more "potential"??? But where does that potential come from? If he was by far the best soloq player on EUW, sure they might have a point, but I am pretty sure that wasn't the case post S3. "Potential" for the same reason people here praise all kind of amateur and soloQ players. These "new faces" have not played on the highest level yet so their limitations have not been shown. Which gives people the opportunity to imagine all kind of unlikely scenarios
True, though to be fair, you could make a case that mechanical skills take longer time to master than it takes for someone to "adapt" into pro 5v5s. So if Incarnation was the best soloq player prior to this split, their decision could be defended (but ofc still a gamble).
However, in the case of Incarnation vs Pobelter, I actually think the latter performed better in soloq at the time he was being acquired. Incarnations soloq reputation was from S3!!! As of today, Incarnation in masters1 with his highest rated account. Probably due to him being "forced" to play lots of control mages instead of assasins.
What on earth went through their mind? It surely wasn't a decision based on a sound objective analysis.
Also, if they didn't want Pobelter, why not test out other more experienced EU mids. I am sure C9 could afford to pay the contract fee for someone like Pepineero or PowerofEvil.
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Pepi and PoE aren't leaving their teams, lol. I also doubt PoE would be a notable upgrade over Incarnation.
It's just impossible for people to admit this is a combination of issues.
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On July 05 2015 23:34 Caiada wrote:
Pepi and PoE aren't leaving their teams, lol. I also doubt PoE would be a notable upgrade over Incarnation.
It's just impossible for people to admit this is a combination of issues.
And you could say the exact same thing about Bjergsen as well 2 years ago.... "He would never go to TSM, lol". But he was probably paid a much much higher wage in TSM.
The same thing can be applied to c9. The brand value of the team is much higher and NA LCS generates more viewers than EU LCS so average revenue on NA top teams is likely much higher.
With the information you had prior to this split, POE would definitely have been a reasonable investment, and so was Pepineero. I am trying to avoid the "hindsight"-reasoning here as we can't always predict 100% what's gonna happen in the future. But some investments have better risk/reward than other investments.
Relying on someone to be as good (relatively) as he was in S3 + widen his champion pool + learn to play in a professional environment --> Bad risk/reward.
UOL was probably the 3rd best EU midlaner last split and would make sense on the paper as an investment. For Pepi you could argue his champion pool isn't what you want to see on C9, but neither was Incarnations champion pool. Regardless of how you look at it, it never made sense at the given time (with the available information).
BTW: Don't think this isn't a combination of issues either.
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On July 05 2015 21:24 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 21:15 Redox wrote:On July 05 2015 21:11 Hider wrote:On July 05 2015 16:44 iCanada wrote:On July 05 2015 15:09 Ethelis wrote:On July 05 2015 14:38 cLutZ wrote:On July 05 2015 14:21 Ethelis wrote:On July 05 2015 14:11 cLutZ wrote:On July 05 2015 13:40 DystopiaX wrote:On July 05 2015 13:17 iCanada wrote:
[quote]
I dont think meteos will ever be a Hai-like shotcaller.
He just isn't that guy. that and Hai is easily the best shotcaller in NALCS, you don't suddenly become the best at something after a couple months of starting to do it. He is quite clearly the best shotcaller in any region ever. I don't think you can prove that but I don't think it's far-fetched to say he's been the best in the west. I can't "prove" it. But no other player has had a noticible (laning) upgrade replace him while hia team became much worse. Given what we are seeing out of the side lanes (meteos is merely a scapegoat), he elevated a Tier 3-4 team to a Tier 1.5 team. Honestly I haven't watched a lot of C9 games this split, but from what I've seen, Incarnati0n has hardly been a "noticeable upgrade" as it was supposed to be. He loses lane just like Hai, except he cannot teamfight or shotcall. I also nearly 100% sure that every time he is shown on camera in the LCS he has already wasted his whole mana bar. LOL. He is basically Balls of mid lane; strong to decent laner if things go his way, but then he just kind of thorws the lead away and gets carried, or he is a complete passenger. IMO anyways. The logic behind picking him over Pobelter was one of the worst I have ever seen. On one hand you have Incarnation who was known as perhaps the best soloq player around S3, and around early S5 had a reputation of being a strong but not outstanding soloq player. He has no experience and his champ pool is limited in the sense that he is much better on assasins. On the other hand you have Pobelter, whom today is also known to be a soloq god based on his korean ladder rankings, has experience playing on a team and performed better when scrimming with C9. But C9 mysteriously picked Incarnation because they thought there was more "potential"??? But where does that potential come from? If he was by far the best soloq player on EUW, sure they might have a point, but I am pretty sure that wasn't the case post S3. "Potential" for the same reason people here praise all kind of amateur and soloQ players. These "new faces" have not played on the highest level yet so their limitations have not been shown. Which gives people the opportunity to imagine all kind of unlikely scenarios True, though to be fair, you could make a case that mechanical skills take longer time to master than it takes for someone to "adapt" into pro 5v5s. So if Incarnation was the best soloq player prior to this split, their decision could be defended (but ofc still a gamble). However, in the case of Incarnation vs Pobelter, I actually think the latter performed better in soloq at the time he was being acquired. Incarnations soloq reputation was from S3!!! As of today, Incarnation in masters1 with his highest rated account. Probably due to him being "forced" to play lots of control mages instead of assasins. What on earth went through their mind? It surely wasn't a decision based on a sound objective analysis. Also, if they didn't want Pobelter, why not test out other more experienced EU mids. I am sure C9 could afford to pay the contract fee for someone like Pepineero or PowerofEvil.
This is just epic hindsight talking here.
Go back 2 months and none of what you said was self evident at all. Incarnation was considered a very strong solo Q player who had coached SK (he made Jesiz a semi-decent midlaner in EU, and a team of pretty average players were a Svenskeren brainsnap away from to getting to worlds quarters) so he was hardly devoid of experience with the pro scene. Pobelter was easily as much of a risk as Incarnation. His career had been patchy, hardly setting the league alight even taking the garbage team he was playing on into account. PoE probably would have been a value choice, but Pepi? Really? He was the only decent player on a crap team in Spring but he wasn't considered some god and that's not event taking the language issues into account. No one had him on their radar as a great player so claiming he would have been worthy of C9 is nothing but hindsight.
You can't just look at players who are having good splits and say "Why didn't C9 pick those players? They're obviously better than that player who's having a bad split". Decisions aren't made in hindsight so using hindsight isn't a good way to judge them. That the vast majority of people said this was probably the best option C9 could have taken given the circumstances tells you everything you need to know about the decision.
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Also, I'm a bit late but I'm pretty devastated about Meteos leaving C9. I know most people acknowledge he's been a very good player but I think that sells him a bit short. His Summer 2013 has to be neck and neck with Bjergsen's Summer 2014 as the most dominant performance by an individual player in LCS history. When C9's lanes were strong he was unbelievably scary, using his efficiency to snowball into a legitimate 4th threat that no other team could come close to matching. We all remember the full damage Nocturne but he took over games all the time with supposedly passive champions like Nasus or Zac with incredibly regularity. I doubt we'll ever see a jungler dominate like that again. It's also to his credit that he adapted in 2014 in response to the meta and his lanes coming back to the pack, becoming more supportive while maintaining the efficiency that made him a higher than average threat for a jungler. Big meta changes often destroy players but Meteos barely skipped a beat.
People make way too much of his style being "shown up" at an international level. C9 lost one bo3 to Fnatic at worlds, with a disastrous level 1 in one of the games and then came back and 2-0'd them two months later at BotA. They lost to Gambit at Cologne but Gambit we're pretty damn hot at that tournament. More than any other team their legacy will always be misunderstood because of the garbage format Riot imposed on S3 worlds imo. We barely got to see C9 in international play in 2013. It's hardly enough data to draw any meaningful conclusions, particularly given Meteos came back with some exceptional performances at International level later in his career (San Jose springs to mind).
Anyway hope he's not done with LoL. I'd love to see him on CLG, but it'd even be fun to see him on TSM. With strong lanes I reckon we'd see him back in business.
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On July 06 2015 10:01 Amarok wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 21:24 Hider wrote:On July 05 2015 21:15 Redox wrote:On July 05 2015 21:11 Hider wrote:On July 05 2015 16:44 iCanada wrote:On July 05 2015 15:09 Ethelis wrote:On July 05 2015 14:38 cLutZ wrote:On July 05 2015 14:21 Ethelis wrote:On July 05 2015 14:11 cLutZ wrote:On July 05 2015 13:40 DystopiaX wrote:
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that and Hai is easily the best shotcaller in NALCS, you don't suddenly become the best at something after a couple months of starting to do it. He is quite clearly the best shotcaller in any region ever. I don't think you can prove that but I don't think it's far-fetched to say he's been the best in the west. I can't "prove" it. But no other player has had a noticible (laning) upgrade replace him while hia team became much worse. Given what we are seeing out of the side lanes (meteos is merely a scapegoat), he elevated a Tier 3-4 team to a Tier 1.5 team. Honestly I haven't watched a lot of C9 games this split, but from what I've seen, Incarnati0n has hardly been a "noticeable upgrade" as it was supposed to be. He loses lane just like Hai, except he cannot teamfight or shotcall. I also nearly 100% sure that every time he is shown on camera in the LCS he has already wasted his whole mana bar. LOL. He is basically Balls of mid lane; strong to decent laner if things go his way, but then he just kind of thorws the lead away and gets carried, or he is a complete passenger. IMO anyways. The logic behind picking him over Pobelter was one of the worst I have ever seen. On one hand you have Incarnation who was known as perhaps the best soloq player around S3, and around early S5 had a reputation of being a strong but not outstanding soloq player. He has no experience and his champ pool is limited in the sense that he is much better on assasins. On the other hand you have Pobelter, whom today is also known to be a soloq god based on his korean ladder rankings, has experience playing on a team and performed better when scrimming with C9. But C9 mysteriously picked Incarnation because they thought there was more "potential"??? But where does that potential come from? If he was by far the best soloq player on EUW, sure they might have a point, but I am pretty sure that wasn't the case post S3. "Potential" for the same reason people here praise all kind of amateur and soloQ players. These "new faces" have not played on the highest level yet so their limitations have not been shown. Which gives people the opportunity to imagine all kind of unlikely scenarios True, though to be fair, you could make a case that mechanical skills take longer time to master than it takes for someone to "adapt" into pro 5v5s. So if Incarnation was the best soloq player prior to this split, their decision could be defended (but ofc still a gamble). However, in the case of Incarnation vs Pobelter, I actually think the latter performed better in soloq at the time he was being acquired. Incarnations soloq reputation was from S3!!! As of today, Incarnation in masters1 with his highest rated account. Probably due to him being "forced" to play lots of control mages instead of assasins. What on earth went through their mind? It surely wasn't a decision based on a sound objective analysis. Also, if they didn't want Pobelter, why not test out other more experienced EU mids. I am sure C9 could afford to pay the contract fee for someone like Pepineero or PowerofEvil. + Show Spoiler +This is just epic hindsight talking here.
Go back 2 months and none of what you said was self evident at all. Incarnation was considered a very strong solo Q player who had coached SK (he made Jesiz a semi-decent midlaner in EU, and a team of pretty average players were a Svenskeren brainsnap away from to getting to worlds quarters) so he was hardly devoid of experience with the pro scene. Pobelter was easily as much of a risk as Incarnation. His career had been patchy, hardly setting the league alight even taking the garbage team he was playing on into account. PoE probably would have been a value choice, but Pepi? Really? He was the only decent player on a crap team in Spring but he wasn't considered some god and that's not event taking the language issues into account. No one had him on their radar as a great player so claiming he would have been worthy of C9 is nothing but hindsight.
You can't just look at players who are having good splits and say "Why didn't C9 pick those players? They're obviously better than that player who's having a bad split". Decisions aren't made in hindsight so using hindsight isn't a good way to judge them. That the vast majority of people said this was probably the best option C9 could have taken given the circumstances tells you everything you need to know about the decision.
Grading Pepi as "a decent player on a crap team" reeks of lack of watching Giants games and it is downright ridiculous. While some of your points like the language barrier and not being widely considered as "some god" are correct, it still doesn't validate that short-sighted evaluation of a player. Looking at his map movement alone in his roams you can see that there's more than the makings of "a decent player on a crap team."
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On July 06 2015 13:09 Ethelis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 10:01 Amarok wrote:On July 05 2015 21:24 Hider wrote:On July 05 2015 21:15 Redox wrote:On July 05 2015 21:11 Hider wrote:On July 05 2015 16:44 iCanada wrote:On July 05 2015 15:09 Ethelis wrote:On July 05 2015 14:38 cLutZ wrote:On July 05 2015 14:21 Ethelis wrote:On July 05 2015 14:11 cLutZ wrote:
[quote]
He is quite clearly the best shotcaller in any region ever. I don't think you can prove that but I don't think it's far-fetched to say he's been the best in the west. I can't "prove" it. But no other player has had a noticible (laning) upgrade replace him while hia team became much worse. Given what we are seeing out of the side lanes (meteos is merely a scapegoat), he elevated a Tier 3-4 team to a Tier 1.5 team. Honestly I haven't watched a lot of C9 games this split, but from what I've seen, Incarnati0n has hardly been a "noticeable upgrade" as it was supposed to be. He loses lane just like Hai, except he cannot teamfight or shotcall. I also nearly 100% sure that every time he is shown on camera in the LCS he has already wasted his whole mana bar. LOL. He is basically Balls of mid lane; strong to decent laner if things go his way, but then he just kind of thorws the lead away and gets carried, or he is a complete passenger. IMO anyways. The logic behind picking him over Pobelter was one of the worst I have ever seen. On one hand you have Incarnation who was known as perhaps the best soloq player around S3, and around early S5 had a reputation of being a strong but not outstanding soloq player. He has no experience and his champ pool is limited in the sense that he is much better on assasins. On the other hand you have Pobelter, whom today is also known to be a soloq god based on his korean ladder rankings, has experience playing on a team and performed better when scrimming with C9. But C9 mysteriously picked Incarnation because they thought there was more "potential"??? But where does that potential come from? If he was by far the best soloq player on EUW, sure they might have a point, but I am pretty sure that wasn't the case post S3. "Potential" for the same reason people here praise all kind of amateur and soloQ players. These "new faces" have not played on the highest level yet so their limitations have not been shown. Which gives people the opportunity to imagine all kind of unlikely scenarios True, though to be fair, you could make a case that mechanical skills take longer time to master than it takes for someone to "adapt" into pro 5v5s. So if Incarnation was the best soloq player prior to this split, their decision could be defended (but ofc still a gamble). However, in the case of Incarnation vs Pobelter, I actually think the latter performed better in soloq at the time he was being acquired. Incarnations soloq reputation was from S3!!! As of today, Incarnation in masters1 with his highest rated account. Probably due to him being "forced" to play lots of control mages instead of assasins. What on earth went through their mind? It surely wasn't a decision based on a sound objective analysis. Also, if they didn't want Pobelter, why not test out other more experienced EU mids. I am sure C9 could afford to pay the contract fee for someone like Pepineero or PowerofEvil. + Show Spoiler +This is just epic hindsight talking here.
Go back 2 months and none of what you said was self evident at all. Incarnation was considered a very strong solo Q player who had coached SK (he made Jesiz a semi-decent midlaner in EU, and a team of pretty average players were a Svenskeren brainsnap away from to getting to worlds quarters) so he was hardly devoid of experience with the pro scene. Pobelter was easily as much of a risk as Incarnation. His career had been patchy, hardly setting the league alight even taking the garbage team he was playing on into account. PoE probably would have been a value choice, but Pepi? Really? He was the only decent player on a crap team in Spring but he wasn't considered some god and that's not event taking the language issues into account. No one had him on their radar as a great player so claiming he would have been worthy of C9 is nothing but hindsight.
You can't just look at players who are having good splits and say "Why didn't C9 pick those players? They're obviously better than that player who's having a bad split". Decisions aren't made in hindsight so using hindsight isn't a good way to judge them. That the vast majority of people said this was probably the best option C9 could have taken given the circumstances tells you everything you need to know about the decision. Grading Pepi as "a decent player on a crap team" reeks of lack of watching Giants games and it is downright ridiculous. While some of your points like the language barrier and not being widely considered as "some god" are correct, it still doesn't validate that short-sighted evaluation of a player. Looking at his map movement alone in his roams you can see that there's more than the makings of "a decent player on a crap team."
I watched every Giants game last split. Pepi was good, played particularly well in their wins. Was he Febiven (god tier) level? No he wasn't. I'd have him behind Ryu & PoE for Spring, probably a bit above Fox/Froggen and well above Nukeduck/Selfie/Betsy/Soren. He was particularly inconsistent early in the split, getting caught out and costing his team a number of times times but him getting the top half of the map rolling was generally the way Giants won their games (outside of random baron steals). You could argue he was improving by the end of the split but he wasn't god tier in Spring, not even close.
He's playing great now, but as mentioned that's hindsight when considering whether he would have been suitable for C9 when they were evaluating who to replace Hai with.
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This is just epic hindsight talking here.
Go back 2 months and none of what you said was self evident at all. Incarnation was considered a very strong solo Q
I don't think you read my comments properly or you are misunderstanding what hindsight means. Hindsight = He was bad investment because he plays bad. I never said anything like that. If you reread my post, you'll discover that I based my analysis on the fact that he was considered the best soloq player was in S3. Not S5 (or late S4).
I also suggest you read/watwch all interviews about other high level players who talk about Incarnation, and even Incarnation him self. They all say the same thing: At the time he was acquired he was a good (but not fantastic) high level soloq player.
A professional team should be doing proper background-check on players and not hire players based on highlight videos.
Pobelter was easily as much of a risk as Incarnation. His career had been patchy, hardly setting the league alight even taking the garbage team he was playing on into account.
Sure, but he performed better during scrims (with C9) than Incarnation In which hypothetical scenario could Incarnation be better than Pobelter?
It seems one needs to be assuming that he will be able to improve faster because he was better than Pobelter during S3.
With Pobelter, the lower bar is higher than it is for Incarnation. He has more experience knowing what to do during teamfights. His upper bar (potential) is that he previosuly suffered from bad teammates/bad coaching , and that he will be able to showcase a higher level on a better team
(notice that my formulation here isn't based on hindsight. In hindsight we know that C9 isn't a well-coached/organized team, but it seemed fair to expect that prior to this split).
But even if that didn't turn out to be the case, then we just go back to his lower bar which is still pretty decent.
You can't just look at players who are having good splits and say "Why didn't C9 pick those players? They're obviously better than that player who's having a bad split"
All of my assesment were based on knowledge from S5-spring. Otherwise I wouldn't recommend Power of Evil. I even straight up wrote it:
With the information you had prior to this split, POE would definitely have been a reasonable investment, and so was Pepineero. I am trying to avoid the "hindsight"-reasoning here as we can't always predict 100% what's gonna happen in the future. But some investments have better risk/reward than other investments.
Pepineero obviously had his breakout this split but still performed well on a weak Giants-team last split. You rate him behind Ryu, Febiven and POE last split, and I agree with that assesment. But remember that EU has a much wider talent-pool of mids, and getting a top 5 EU mid is imo satisfactory for the team.
Be aware, I am not saying they should acquire him (or any EU midlaner on a team), but it seems irrational to me that they are locked on to a good Soloq player with no experience, and won't actually consider the EU-talent that have prooved to perform well.
But even if they had considered all of the available EU-talent and it didn't turn out to be realistic, Pobelter is still a better investment in every single (realistic) scenario than Incarnation.
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Pobelter has underwhelmed his entire career and scrim performances should always be taken with a few grains of salt. C9 probably figured he would continue to play like he always had and frankly that's not unreasonable. Maybe Incarnation is a fraud but maybe he's Bjergsen #2 when you put him into a pro team and a competetive environment. His coaching time on SK suggested he had a head for the game at the organised level. C9 rolled the dice and came up snake eyes. It happens.
You are showing you didn't read my comments properly once again. All of my recommendations were based on knowledge from S5-spring. Otherwise I wouldn't recommend Power of Evil. I even straight up wrote it here:
I call it hindsight because I honestly don't believe you'd be here saying Pobelter was a better choice if Incarnation was beasting the league and Pobelter was playing like he has every other split. No one was saying what you're saying back then either. There's more people calling for Link than Pobelter in the "Hai steps down" thread.
Don't disagree on PoE being a better choice and hey, even if you rated Pepi's Spring Split that highly it's not reasonable to assume they were even an option.
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Pobelter has underwhelmed his entire career. C9 probably figured he would continue to play like he always had and frankly that's not unreasonable.
There isn't anything in those two sentences that I didn't take into account in my assesment. Pobelter probably won't be the best NA midlaner, but I still rate him as top 5 NA prior to the season.
But neither were there any reasons to expect that Incarnation would be the best (unless you believe that he will be as good as he was during S3... relatively).
scrim performances should always be taken with a few grains of salt.
It's definitely not perfect, but still a great indication of how well a player will fit within the team.
(Somewhat related example: Before spring split S5 everyone estimated that Fnatic would do bad, but alot of people who had scrimmed against them rated them a lot higher. )
What is working out for Incarnation here? You imagine that this unprooven players is just playing mediocrely in scrims, but suddenly will go crazy in actual games? Even if Pobelter had a reputation of being much better during scrims than in actual games, I still prefer the risk/reward of getting him.
(and I don't think that's whats his reputation is - his reputation is that he is fantastic in soloq, but only decent in LCS).
I call it hindsight because I honestly don't believe you'd be here saying Pobelter was a better choice if Incarnation was beasting the league and Pobelter was playing like he has every other split.
I still don't know what it is that makes you think this is a hindsight-analysis. But let me try to make this very simple:
(time = prior to S5 summer)
Incarnation = Great soloq player + no experience + champion pool = mostly assasins + performed worse during scrims
Pobelter = Great soloq player + experience + decent LCS na mid on a bad team + performed better during scrims
Above was the information one would have prior to this split. From my perspective, Pobelter has the better risk/reward by far here.
If (on the other hand) Incarnation actually was the best EU soloq player when he was acquired, the investment could have been defended. But that simply wasn't the case.
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I just think your assessment vastly undervalues the potential upside of Incarnation while downplaying the perception of Pobelter at the time, but we're going around in circles on this.
On July 06 2015 17:44 Hider wrote:
If (on the other hand) Incarnation actually was the best EU soloq player when he was acquired, the investment could have been defended. But that simply wasn't the case.
C9 obviously thought (and possibly still do think) he can get back to that level. That's why the "potential" line got trotted out. Who knows, maybe he even gets there one day. They did however have far more information to make the decision than any of us here which is something to always remember in a discussion like this.
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