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I just think your assessment vastly undervalues the potential upside of Incarnation while downplaying the perception of Pobelter at the time, but we're going around in circles on this.
Yes, it's all circles because it depends on what you value more: a new player who has the potential to reach new highs (Incarnation might be around for some time, but he's never been on stage), or a tried veteran who has showed signs of brilliance but had a generally unimpressive career for what was expected.
Personally I think it's a good idea to throw talent out on stage into the meat grinder and see how they perform. This is what is happening in the LPL, EDG is throwing in substitutes practically every game, and other teams have experimented as well. Now, this works because EDG is a huge organization that can support those subs, but it also has to do with the LPL schedule: the massive number of games makes individual games almost unimportant and leaves a lot of room to experiment.
The reason that's good is because it allows the talent in the scene to grow and mature. NA talent pool has stagnated, that's been the consensus for a while, and it's mostly because players get recycled (including from other regions) while new players only seem to come into LCS through the Challenger scene.
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I just think your assessment vastly undervalues the potential upside of Incarnation while downplaying the perception of Pobelter at the time, but we're going around in circles on this.
The problem is that you aren't basing this potential out of anything. It's just wish-thinking. If you put emphasis on soloq-performance, then there is no reason to pick him over Pobelter since he has performed at least as good.
a new player who has the potential to reach new highs (Incarnation might be around for some time, but he's never been on stage), or a tried veteran who has showed signs of brilliance but had a generally unimpressive career for what was expected.
Sure, you can invite him to scrims to see whether he really is as good as the youtube-highlights "indicate". But when he - during scrimage - gives no sign of being better than you average high elo soloq-player, just dumb him. Don't give him an extra "potential"-value based on wishful thinking.
C9 obviously thought (and possibly still do think) he can get back to that level.
They are basing that line of thought on "wish-thinking", and with that logic you could justify acquring lots of other players. Every player who is medicore today but top quality 2 years ago would fit into that description.
The only way Incarnation differ is that he a mystique around him due to being banned by Riot.... If you purely looked at objective facts, Incarnation would never have been acquired by C9.
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Randos on the Internet definitely know a lot more about talent acquisition than the org that put together and maintained the most successful NA team basically ever.
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That's an awful argument. At least half the fantasy football owners I know would run a better team than the Raider, Browns, Jags, Bucs and likely another 10 teams in the nfl. Being on the outside looking in often means you're less biased not more. It's pretty obvious that a variety of problems exist with c9. Not the least of which is a lack of quality shot calling. Incarnation might provide flash, but C9 as far as I can recall hasn't won on flash. Rather it's been a mix of enough talent combined with better strategical play.
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On July 07 2015 09:06 geript wrote:
That's an awful argument. At least half the fantasy football owners I know would run a better team than the Raider, Browns, Jags, Bucs and likely another 10 teams in the nfl.
No they really wouldn't. Winning fantasy football competitions doesn't in any way qualify you to run mammoth professional organisations like football teams.
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On July 07 2015 11:56 Amarok wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2015 09:06 geript wrote:
That's an awful argument. At least half the fantasy football owners I know would run a better team than the Raider, Browns, Jags, Bucs and likely another 10 teams in the nfl. No they really wouldn't. Winning fantasy football competitions doesn't in any way qualify you to run mammoth professional organisations like football teams.
Being GM =/= running the team.
To be fair though football is poor example, there are not many average Joes who understand how to navigate through a salary cap system.
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I think the thing that bothers me the most about C9 going down the drain is the amount of international play they actually saw was absolutely minimal due to the way Riot sets everything up. I would have loved to see peak C9 go against international competition frequently, because I'm pretty sure they would have raised their game given enough exposure. Instead I'm just going to remember them washing out of nearly every tournament minus the Kabum miracle.
I hope they recover, but it doesn't look good. :/
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I'd love to see more interaction between NA, EU, China, Korea, etc. Honestly though, I'm not quite sure how that would work logistically. A 1 year stint is a bare minimum clearly, but I think for it to be financially viable it would likely require a 3 year deal. This doesn't even cover how it could affect players and what would be fair because players moving would be pretty important.
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On July 08 2015 06:05 zer0das wrote:
I think the thing that bothers me the most about C9 going down the drain is the amount of international play they actually saw was absolutely minimal due to the way Riot sets everything up. I would have loved to see peak C9 go against international competition frequently, because I'm pretty sure they would have raised their game given enough exposure. Instead I'm just going to remember them washing out of nearly every tournament minus the Kabum miracle.
I hope they recover, but it doesn't look good. :/
Agreed. I sometimes wish they got food poisoning the night before the 2013 Summer finals and lost to TSM, sending them to the group with SKT/OMG/LD. They might not have made the quarters but we'd have a way better idea of where they stood internationally at their peak.
The thing that really bothers me about the Meteos to support thing is that I don't see how it can possibly be more effective than leaving him in the Jungle. There's no way Hai is a better Jungler than even slumping Meteos and you're weakening the support position with a role swap anyway.
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honestly, the best move for C9 right now would be to kick incarnation. The guy simply hasn't been performing up to the hype and going back to the spring C9 lineup would probably be the best short-term fix.
Only problem is that Hai's wrist injuries are going to put a strict limit on how strong the team can become. C9 also probably doesn't want to kick incarnation so soon.
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On July 07 2015 08:58 Caiada wrote:
Randos on the Internet definitely know a lot more about talent acquisition than the org that put together and maintained the most successful NA team basically ever.
Awfull argument. This organisation has basically maintained the same five players for years. They never had to proove that they were skilled picking the best available players. So when you see a manager that gets an orgasm based on soloq highlights and wants that player no matter what, you gotta question whether they made a mistake or not.
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EPT
