EPTIs there something wrong with the Riot API today?
[Patch 5.12] Runeglaive General Discussion - Page 11
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las91
United States5080 Posts
Is there something wrong with the Riot API today? | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
It's only Twitch's secondary tag anyway, he's mainly a marksman. The fun part comes when you look at the Fighter tag, both primary and secondary. | ||
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Parnage
United States7414 Posts
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
On June 27 2015 01:18 Seuss wrote: I'm aware of the history, but I'm grinding an axe. My reaction is largely because people were talking about fixing Diana by giving her things she doesn't have (e.g. pre-6 ganking potential). Maybe that will ultimately be what is necessary, but I don't think that kind of change should be undertaken lightly, even with her history. Fundamentally I don't see the need for a full rework when conceptually a dramatic reduction in her ultimate's damage would fix her burst, and further numbers tweaks could put her closer to an Irelia-style AP than an Akali. Ok, let's look at Irelia. She has built-in sustain on the W, a gap closer on Q, a melee stun/slow on E, and more sustain + burst damage on her R. Diana's gap closer is on her R, but if you land a Q before the R hits, R will reset. So in theory you get a decent burst of damage with a Q-R-R combo, that'd be the closest comparison to Irelia's R. Diana's W is not sustain specifically, but it does help her win trades, so it's a similar function to Irelia's W. The Q is wave clear and part of the engage tool, so that matches pretty well with Irelia's Q. Diana's E is an AoE mini-vaccum effect that does damage and slows whoever it hits briefly, and is the only form of CC in her kit and is arguably not as strong as Irelia's E. So why is Irelia so much better than Diana when you build her tanky? Irelia gets true damage on the W active and her passive means she is near immune to any form of CC in a teamfight. Where-as Diana's passive helps her clear minion waves/monster camps faster and push down towers. If you don't want to give Diana pre-6 ganking potential in a theoretical rework of her, then you need to provide some sort of payoff for it, and right now her Q+R isn't enough. And in lane Diana either has to build Zhonyas or Abyssal first depending upon what her lane opponent's damage source is because the shield isn't as strong as Irelia's W passive sustain, where you can put a single point into it and just heal up off AAing a wave. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
"This unit's Devourer is Sated. Basic attacks deal X bonus magic damage and every other basic attack will trigger on Hit effects twice." Holy shit this is terrifying. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On June 27 2015 04:23 Kinie wrote: Ok, let's look at Irelia. She has built-in sustain on the W, a gap closer on Q, a melee stun/slow on E, and more sustain + burst damage on her R. Diana's gap closer is on her R, but if you land a Q before the R hits, R will reset. So in theory you get a decent burst of damage with a Q-R-R combo, that'd be the closest comparison to Irelia's R. Diana's W is not sustain specifically, but it does help her win trades, so it's a similar function to Irelia's W. The Q is wave clear and part of the engage tool, so that matches pretty well with Irelia's Q. Diana's E is an AoE mini-vaccum effect that does damage and slows whoever it hits briefly, and is the only form of CC in her kit and is arguably not as strong as Irelia's E. So why is Irelia so much better than Diana when you build her tanky? Irelia gets true damage on the W active and her passive means she is near immune to any form of CC in a teamfight. Where-as Diana's passive helps her clear minion waves/monster camps faster and push down towers. If you don't want to give Diana pre-6 ganking potential in a theoretical rework of her, then you need to provide some sort of payoff for it, and right now her Q+R isn't enough. And in lane Diana either has to build Zhonyas or Abyssal first depending upon what her lane opponent's damage source is because the shield isn't as strong as Irelia's W passive sustain, where you can put a single point into it and just heal up off AAing a wave. Moonfall doesn't do any damage. Dat devourer change, ouch. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On June 27 2015 04:23 Kinie wrote: Ok, let's look at Irelia. She has built-in sustain on the W, a gap closer on Q, a melee stun/slow on E, and more sustain + burst damage on her R. Diana's gap closer is on her R, but if you land a Q before the R hits, R will reset. So in theory you get a decent burst of damage with a Q-R-R combo, that'd be the closest comparison to Irelia's R. Diana's W is not sustain specifically, but it does help her win trades, so it's a similar function to Irelia's W. The Q is wave clear and part of the engage tool, so that matches pretty well with Irelia's Q. Diana's E is an AoE mini-vaccum effect that does damage and slows whoever it hits briefly, and is the only form of CC in her kit and is arguably not as strong as Irelia's E. So why is Irelia so much better than Diana when you build her tanky? Irelia gets true damage on the W active and her passive means she is near immune to any form of CC in a teamfight. Where-as Diana's passive helps her clear minion waves/monster camps faster and push down towers. If you don't want to give Diana pre-6 ganking potential in a theoretical rework of her, then you need to provide some sort of payoff for it, and right now her Q+R isn't enough. And in lane Diana either has to build Zhonyas or Abyssal first depending upon what her lane opponent's damage source is because the shield isn't as strong as Irelia's W passive sustain, where you can put a single point into it and just heal up off AAing a wave. AD generally favors Bruisers more than AP because of its consistent damage output. An AD bruiser can just continue to auto for a decent amount of damage, and their skills can be tuned down to just supplement this. An AP gets most of their damage from skills, and there is usually no/less incentive to not use all of them as fast as possible, naturally becoming an assassin playstyle (low sustained damage compared to burst). The ways to prevent this are giving them an extremely low CD AP skill (evelynn), or a diana onhit passive. This unfortunately basically makes them into an AD champion who just happens to build AP (kayle). Not extremely interesting. Its quite hard to get a melee bruiser to build AP, look at jaxes CD's and ratios. they are pretty great, but why build ap and do .9AP every three attacks, when you can build AD and do 1.0AD every attack. Lifesteal is also much better and easily accessible than spellvamp. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Yi deals a fuckton of damage because of massive AS steroid and a ratio on his E so you build AD and crit, same with Yasuo's AS and crit (early on). Irelia doesn't have offensive ratios (E and R aren't high enough to justify it). I don't see the point of comparing them. Diana has waveclear and pseudo poke with Q, she's got initiation power from R's superior range and E, she's more vulnerable pre-6 and doesn't spike harder in normal circumstances (she snowballs way harder) but she doesn't fall off. Her lack of sustain makes the sidelanes harder for her, while Irelia's lack of burst makes the short lane harder for her. She also does better on low farm because she mostly uses levels, but she can't make up for it by farming later if she misses her power spike. I don't see why you compare them. And if you look at Riot's take on "roles", their tags actually make sense and can be explained fairly easily... save for Fighter because Fighter is a mess. Basically it's in the middle of tank, mage and assassin, and every champion who gets a bit of elements from other roles or doesn't go all the way inside its archetype gets "fighter" slapped on it. So Riven who's an assassin with tankiness and AoE damage is also a fighter, Nautilus who's a tank is tagged fighter for no reason at all, Ekko's an assassin because if they didn't fuck up he wouldn't burst people but would need to stay in, Mundo's not a mage with only Cleavers, nor a Marksman despite E, nor a tank because he's sturdy but cc-less, so he's a fighter. etc. It's actually telling (the non-fighter part): Tryndamere and Yi are assassins because a melee character can't be a marksman, needing burst if he doesn't build tanky to actually contribute to the fight. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On June 27 2015 04:23 Kinie wrote: ...If you don't want to give Diana pre-6 ganking potential in a theoretical rework of her, then you need to provide some sort of payoff for it, and right now her Q+R isn't enough... That's perfectly reasonable, even intuitive. A champion with weaknesses should have strengths to counteract them (though perhaps asymmetrically). As a reminder, I'm working off the premise that Riot wants to shift Diana from an AP Assassin to an AP Bruiser. Here's a little more detail on why I made the suggestion I did at the end of my previous post. The core mechanism that seems to drive Diana's assassination power is her ultimate. Without her passive prepped it represents a full half of both the base damage and AP scaling of her burst combo (WQRR). Even with her passive prepped it's still roughly 35-40% of the burst combo's damage/scaling. As such it seems like the best focal point for reducing her potential for assassination. Now, reducing the damage on Diana's ultimate is obviously a nerf and given that she's being targeted for improvement it doesn't make sense to stop there. The question is how do we fiddle with her numbers so that she could serve as an AP bruiser without simply being better as an AP assassin? My answer would be:
However, I'm not a core Diana player so if that's antithetical to how you want to play her I (as a Xerath player who liked him better pre-rework) can completely understand. As a footnote, I excised your Irelia/Diana comparison because it's already been quoted, but also because it rambled along when you could have just said, "Irelia works because she has self-healing, true damage, and strong resistance to CC. All Diana has is a shield and waveclear". | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On June 27 2015 05:11 Seuss wrote: That's perfectly reasonable, even intuitive. A champion with weaknesses should have strengths to counteract them (though perhaps asymmetrically). As a reminder, I'm working off the premise that Riot wants to shift Diana from an AP Assassin to an AP Bruiser. Here's a little more detail on why I made the suggestion I did at the end of my previous post. The core mechanism that seems to drive Diana's assassination power is her ultimate. Without her passive prepped it represents a full half of both the base damage and AP scaling of her burst combo (WQRR). Even with her passive prepped it's still roughly 35-40% of the burst combo's damage/scaling. As such it seems like the best focal point for reducing her potential for assassination. Now, reducing the damage on Diana's ultimate is obviously a nerf and given that she's being targeted for improvement it doesn't make sense to stop there. The question is how do we fiddle with her numbers so that she could serve as an AP bruiser without simply being better as an AP assassin? My answer would be:
However, I'm not a core Diana player so if that's antithetical to how you want to play her I (as a Xerath player who liked him better pre-rework) can completely understand. As a footnote, I excised your Irelia/Diana comparison because it's already been quoted, but also because it rambled along when you could have just said, "Irelia works because she has self-healing, true damage, and strong resistance to CC. All Diana has is a shield and waveclear". I also think you can fiddle with her E radius/damage to push her to more teamfight oriented, or more skirmish/duelist/ganks. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
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Ethelis
United States2400 Posts
On June 27 2015 05:27 Frolossus wrote: i think anivia top is my current hipster pick. still fumbling over what runes/masteries/item order i like most for top. Always MS quints, never not MS quints. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + | ||
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Blooshy
Peru3 Posts
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Purge
Canada372 Posts
If thas not how you're gonna display mastery, then youd have to demonstrate it like a leona or Alistar player, who can demonstrate skill using solid decisionmaking on initiation, which is more what Riot thought would be her niche. But this part of Diana has been nerfed so hard into the ground its not funny because she has burst where other similar champions do not. We have to start looking away from this identity for her to play around imo. I'd make the case for Diana to be reworked and to be given a kit that has more player controlled nuance than her current W and R, and a moonfall that is actually a teamfighting and her defining tool. I know that Mount Targon Champs are famous for being linear and easy to play, but Id love it if she had mechanical depth to her. Maybe an energy system to gate her Q spam but make her manaless, even better an energy system like Rumbles or Gnars that locked her out of using a ranged Q after crossing over a certain threshold (eg. all spells add 10 to her counter, above 30 her Q changes from ranged poke to a midranged duelist tool). Im just spitting out ideas here and i am heavily biased towards high mechanical complexity personally so i prob would go overboard but thats what i think should happen to her. She's an awesomely conceived character in terms of personality and art (my 3rd fav behind Yas and Riven) and its just sad that shes fun to become but boring to play. :/ Now that people brought it up im not gonna be able to get diana rework ideas out of my head lol. | ||
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IamPryda
United States1186 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
warrior > budget bruta upgrade Magus > budget lichbane Cinder > budget sunfire | ||
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