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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On June 26 2015 22:00 Seuss wrote: Diana isn't used in competitive play/the current meta/whatever, therefore we need to do a massive rework. http://lol.esportspedia.com/wiki/Diana/Match_History | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
I believe he was mocking Riot's decision making. They decided to redo her a long time before she got picked up again this year. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
 And you can't really compare "stickiness" as Irelia with Q max + CDR to dash to someone (she maxes Q last and peaks in the midgame, there are a bunch of carries she can't actually solo lategame, or at least not as fast as an assassin) to Diana hitting QRs (it's not point'n'click, but the cd is minimal once she hits 9, so in time for her midgame spike). | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On June 26 2015 22:00 Gahlo wrote: Riot's design philosophy is that an assassin that is doing well should be able to go in, kill something, and get out. Diana when behind goes in and can't kill anything. When even, goes in and kills somebody, then dies. Or lastly, when ahead, goes in and kills everyone. In none of those cases can she "get out." In one of those cases, she isn't an assassin. Sounds like.... Every single assassin outside of Leblenk. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On June 26 2015 22:22 Gahlo wrote: I believe he was mocking Riot's decision making. They decided to redo her a long time before she got picked up again this year. I was poking fun at a lot of things, but I did have a particular axe that needed grinding in mind. When it comes to balancing champions we're too apt to look at champion kits rather than numbers. I can understand why, numbers are hard, but that propensity is bad for design. Diana's jungling is a good example. The common complaint that's come up, and it's come up many times for many junglers over the years, is that she doesn't have a good kit for ganking before she hits level 6. The very intuitive reaction is, "We should change her kit so that she can gank better early." It feels concrete, the possibilities tantalize the imagination, but it also homogenizes champions and pushes utility/kit creep. It's much harder, and much less sexy, to tweak a few numbers. Few people get excited about a 0.1 or 0.2 AP ratio increase, and fewer still can explain the complicated effects such changes can have on the game. Unless you make large changes most players won't notice, care, or change their play patterns (which can lead to "lets keep buffing Corki since no one is playing him" situations). Ultimately it's hard for people to see why changing numbers is a good solution. I don't have much hope that my viewpoint will prevail though, since Riot currently associates kit complexity/utility with exciting plays and seems intent on pursuing that design path. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Talon's stealth (on paper; in reality you want to reactivate it to kill someone, because it's a bunch of damage, and it's AoE so if you do enough you can afford to stay in fight) Zed's W or R2 Fizz's E Ahri's ult Akali's shroud (MS buff + stealth) Shaco's ult+stealth (if he can juke enough for it to come off cd) Ekko's ult and E Kassadin's ult Katarina's Shunpo Yasuo's "oh hey a creep wave" and shield Tryndamere's ult and E (and cd reduction mechanic) Tristana's W and reset Teemo's combo of range, W and shrooms Twitch's stealth Yi's speed (or just kill everyone) Fiora's ult (as a way to stall, but that's more how it's used than design) Nidalee's general mobility Lee's same Jax's Q on allies/wards Exceptions are: - Pantheon (and it's always been a reason why Kha or Zed are way better "assassins" than him) - Yi, Fiora (although they have ways around it) - Vi (more than others since Q can be interrupted and forced on cd) - Malzahar, Xerath (wtf Riot?) - Poppy (arguably way around it through ult if she kills fast enough) - Nocturne (maybe if he kills during his ult, too?) - Rengar (bushes can help, and he has his ult if he gets to jump without ulting) - Riven (although mashing E and Q makes her faster than champions with boots advantage, and lol-shield, so she can escape but rarely needs to) - Irelia - Evelynn (since she lost her reset on W) - Xin Zhao (see Pantheon) - Vayne (ult tumble stealth is more stalling than escaping) That's about 1/3rd of the champions Riot call assassins. For what you would call assassins, that would arguably go down (Malzahar, seriously?). | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On June 26 2015 22:22 Gahlo wrote: I believe he was mocking Riot's decision making. They decided to redo her a long time before she got picked up again this year. This was intentionally done by Riot. They wanted to slightly buff the champions they eventually want to rework on so they are more playable. See: Urgot. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On June 26 2015 23:34 Alaric wrote: + Show Spoiler + Kha'Zix resets and stealth Talon's stealth (on paper; in reality you want to reactivate it to kill someone, because it's a bunch of damage, and it's AoE so if you do enough you can afford to stay in fight) Zed's W or R2 Fizz's E Ahri's ult Akali's shroud (MS buff + stealth) Shaco's ult+stealth (if he can juke enough for it to come off cd) Ekko's ult and E Kassadin's ult Katarina's Shunpo Yasuo's "oh hey a creep wave" and shield Tryndamere's ult and E (and cd reduction mechanic) Tristana's W and reset Teemo's combo of range, W and shrooms Twitch's stealth Yi's speed (or just kill everyone) Fiora's ult (as a way to stall, but that's more how it's used than design) Nidalee's general mobility Lee's same Jax's Q on allies/wards Exceptions are: - Pantheon (and it's always been a reason why Kha or Zed are way better "assassins" than him) - Yi, Fiora (although they have ways around it) - Vi (more than others since Q can be interrupted and forced on cd) - Malzahar, Xerath (wtf Riot?) - Poppy (arguably way around it through ult if she kills fast enough) - Nocturne (maybe if he kills during his ult, too?) - Rengar (bushes can help, and he has his ult if he gets to jump without ulting) - Riven (although mashing E and Q makes her faster than champions with boots advantage, and lol-shield, so she can escape but rarely needs to) - Irelia - Evelynn (since she lost her reset on W) - Xin Zhao (see Pantheon) - Vayne (ult tumble stealth is more stalling than escaping) That's about 1/3rd of the champions Riot call assassins. For what you would call assassins, that would arguably go down (Malzahar, seriously?). If they are behind they cant do anything like Diana, if they are even they will get blown up before they can get out and if ahead they kill everyone. So yeah. Like Diana. Are you really calling Jax, Twitch, Tristana, Tryndamere, Lee and Teemo (and plenty other on that list) assassins? oO | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On June 27 2015 00:03 Jek wrote: If they are behind they cant do anything like Diana, if they are even they will get blown up before they can get out and if ahead they kill everyone. So yeah. Like Diana. Are you really calling Jax, Twitch, Tristana, Tryndamere, Lee and Teemo (and plenty other on that list) assassins? oO Well... the champions Riot call assassins You were saying "only Leblanc can go in and out amongst assassins" so I disagreed. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On June 26 2015 23:28 Seuss wrote: I was poking fun at a lot of things, but I did have a particular axe that needed grinding in mind. When it comes to balancing champions we're too apt to look at champion kits rather than numbers. I can understand why, numbers are hard, but that propensity is bad for design. Diana's jungling is a good example. The common complaint that's come up, and it's come up many times for many junglers over the years, is that she doesn't have a good kit for ganking before she hits level 6. The very intuitive reaction is, "We should change her kit so that she can gank better early." It feels concrete, the possibilities tantalize the imagination, but it also homogenizes champions and pushes utility/kit creep. It's much harder, and much less sexy, to tweak a few numbers. Few people get excited about a 0.1 or 0.2 AP ratio increase, and fewer still can explain the complicated effects such changes can have on the game. Unless you make large changes most players won't notice, care, or change their play patterns (which can lead to "lets keep buffing Corki since no one is playing him" situations). Ultimately it's hard for people to see why changing numbers is a good solution. I don't have much hope that my viewpoint will prevail though, since Riot currently associates kit complexity/utility with exciting plays and seems intent on pursuing that design path. Well, some times its needed, because within the game Riot created and envisions, sometimes a champion can't fit when good (assassins that can't get out). I think Diana could be more of a Maokai/Rumble hybrid with a numbers rebalancing, but something like Rengar.... | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On June 27 2015 00:03 Jek wrote: If they are behind they cant do anything like Diana, if they are even they will get blown up before they can get out and if ahead they kill everyone. So yeah. Like Diana. Are you really calling Jax, Twitch, Tristana, Tryndamere, Lee and Teemo (and plenty other on that list) assassins? oO That list is based on the tags Riot applies to champions. The same way a champion can be a "support" but not be a Support. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On June 27 2015 00:05 ticklishmusic wrote: Anyone with burst is an assassin, didn't any of you get the memo from Riot This isn't even remotely true. By this definition Orianna is an assassin too. Usually assassins also come with mobility/escape and single target burst that can at least 80-0 a squishy on comparable farm. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On June 27 2015 00:21 Sufficiency wrote: This isn't even remotely true. By this definition Orianna is an assassin too. Usually assassins also come with mobility/escape and single target burst that can at least 80-0 a squishy on comparable farm. Sarcasm bruh | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On June 27 2015 00:17 cLutZ wrote: Well, some times its needed, because within the game Riot created and envisions, sometimes a champion can't fit when good (assassins that can't get out). I think Diana could be more of a Maokai/Rumble hybrid with a numbers rebalancing, but something like Rengar.... I agree that sometimes it's needed. The problem is that we, and more importantly Riot, have a very strong tendency to look in that direction by default when we could do just as well or better by tweaking numbers. CAR ANALOGY: Don't fix flat tires or worn brakes by replacing the engine. | ||
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TheHumanSensation
Canada1210 Posts
On June 27 2015 00:21 Sufficiency wrote: This isn't even remotely true. By this definition Orianna is an assassin too. Usually assassins also come with mobility/escape and single target burst that can at least 80-0 a squishy on comparable farm. iirc every champion has minimum/maximum two tags. Twitch is a lot more of an assassin than a mage, fighter, tank, or support, imo. So it makes sense under this problematic structure. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On June 27 2015 00:38 Seuss wrote: I agree that sometimes it's needed. The problem is that we, and more importantly Riot, have a very strong tendency to look in that direction by default when we could do just as well or better by tweaking numbers. CAR ANALOGY: Don't fix flat tires or worn brakes by replacing the engine. When she came out she was bopping people while going 1st item GA. Then they kept tuning her down until she wasn't a problem and then... she wasn't picked. That was when Riot decided some serious work needed to be done, because she was either a problem or ignored. Now she's kind of just on the fringe. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
My reaction is largely because people were talking about fixing Diana by giving her things she doesn't have (e.g. pre-6 ganking potential). Maybe that will ultimately be what is necessary, but I don't think that kind of change should be undertaken lightly, even with her history. Fundamentally I don't see the need for a full rework when conceptually a dramatic reduction in her ultimate's damage would fix her burst, and further numbers tweaks could put her closer to an Irelia-style AP than an Akali. | ||
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