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On February 24 2015 05:02 RaphaelSanzio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2015 03:49 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Annie and Malzahar are easy to play. I think ease of executability, though nebulous and not nearly as pronounced in League as in Dota, should still factor. I play Malzahar precisely because he's easy to play huehue.
In general I prefer the Valve method of balancing solely for competitive play. Balancing solo queue just has way too many conflicting factors and variance and it all becomes really messy. It's just very hard to have both a good competitive balance as well as a good solo queue balance, and I think Riot should be more at ease with the idea of having hue discrepancies between solo queue and professional win rates. i also like dota's balancing however, i think the nerf mentality in league can be the most beneficial if executed properly they need to do more than just ~10 champion changes every patch. There are champions like aatrox who haven't been touched in 20 months (that's not an exaggeration btw lol). If every patch included changes to at least 60 champions, this game would benefit greatly from it. Some say it would create inherent chaos because so many changes would be happening and you would have a hard time tracking them, but you have to remember most nerfs/buffs in league are REALLY miniscule things like +10 or -10 damage. at the end of the day the reason why this game is struggling in the balance department is ultimately riot's financial investment in that department. They hire 1000+ people for eSports related shit but probably have at most 10 guys in the balance roster. Chances are that these 10 guys get paid like $60,000 a year for doing simple shit like "we have reduced zed's attack speed" just because they have seniority within the company. IMO there are two things that should happen for this game to get better. Either a) completely remove the balancin riot influenced "balancing" and let the players forge their own balance in the way broodwar did. So what if a champ goes on a 60% win rate for a period of time, someone will eventually come and figure out a strategy that will counter that and thus the balance will come from the playerbase rather than an external source like riot. or b) keep the same balance approach but do it on a much wider scale so you don't neglect 80% of the playable roster. Unfortunately this would require for riot to actually expect their balance staff to do actual work so that's unlikely. Also there is the problem with there being a huge indicator that riot's balance tends to involve monetary decisions aka "buff the champ before a skin is released for it" or my favorite "this champion (warwick) doesn't sell as many skins as other champs so we should never allow him to be relevant in competitive". You have to think after a while... why is lee sin a staple pick for 3 years? because he looks cool and does cool flashy plays and thus the playerbase will invest money in his skins so they can look fresh while they do cool flashy plays.
the broodwar argument is bullshit, because this game does not have ZvTvP and a small set of possible matchups.
ZvT
ZvP
ZvZ
TvP
TvT
PvP
that's it.
league of legends has something like 45 quadrillion possible matchups. and im sure that number is using a smaller number of release champions than we currently have.
if a champion has a 60% win rate because it wins 100% of the time against 60% of all possible combinations of teams, and loses 100% of the time vs the other 40% of combinations, that champion is 100% bullshit.
change 60 to 40, and 40 to 60 in the previous sentence and the champion with a 40% win rate is still bullshit. "let the players figure out the counters" is a bullshit argument when most of your casual base plays blind pick.
blind pick is cancer to balancing this game properly.
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I agree with the criticism, my statement was too vague. I mean to say champion winrates in relation to their actual power level have time and time again have shown to be skewed by high or low popularity
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I don't know if anyone else has this same experience, but LeBlanc and Corki are super strong champs that just never win games. I always see LeBlancs get 10, 15, even 20 kills in a game, and then still lose. Corki is the exact same story. Gets super fed, and then loses the game. Very strange.
Edit: I understand it happens to every champ sometimes, but these 2 almost always get fed, and then lose. That's why it's so strange to me.
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Baa?21248 Posts
Comparatively poor scaling - solo q teams are bad at closing out games, and LeBlanc and Corki lack the damage late game when everyone has resists compared to their counterparts. No reliable CC.
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Overall, I think Cass is a better champ than Malz. It's tough to compare the two since their kits are so dissimilar. Simply put, Cass has high DPS and a more reliable/impactful ult.
If we're talking mid lane Malz, he has a number of weaknesses. He auto pushes lane, sure, he can last hit with autos, but his kit encourages him to hard push. He has no mobility and no hard cc to escape from a gank and makes him vulnerable to flanks. His ult is reliant on the enemy not building a QSS and not since it's a channel he has to not get cced while channeling.
With that said, he has a retarded amount of damage and can 100-0 just about any tank in the game in a 1v1. Without qss, I don't think there's a champ that can beat him in a 1v1. He would probably be good on a counter engage team comp. It would be cool to see him picked sometime. I'd fear if he was picked competitively he'd go fotm and I'd never play my space aids in the jungle ever again.
Edit: Ok, Veigar could 1v1 Malz. Even in that situation it would depend on who gets the jump on who.
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I think auto pushing a really overrated problem for Malz considering he can reset the wave for 0 mana starting at like level 5
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On February 24 2015 06:22 Slusher wrote:
I think auto pushing a really overrated problem for Malz considering he can reset the wave for 0 mana starting at like level 5
That's more or less true. It's still an issue though. Also Malz needs to auto the minions to get perfect cs. His aids won't always last hit the minions which puts him in a bad spot in lane.
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red post confirming they are going to release the veigar changes despite public disapproval
sad times 
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On February 24 2015 06:39 Slusher wrote:red post confirming they are going to release the veigar changes despite public disapproval sad times
Wow. What a huge nerf to Veigar as a champion. yikes.
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On February 24 2015 04:57 iCanada wrote:
I think Annie mid right now is pretty strong, but that's mostly just because people forgot about how to deal with her actually having farm and levels.
She can pretty much 100 to 0 anyone without a real dedicated MR defensive item at the 8 to 10 stack RoA+VS timing. Like absolutely deleted, meanwhile the splash damage chunked half their team hard.
Just need those distortion boots and that summoner cd mastery. Takes basically a minute off of flashe cd, you can really catch people off guard when they think there is still like a minute and a half till you can flash Tiber for 2600 damage and AoE stun.
i don't like rod on mid annie
i use her to counter pick assassins and usually just go double dorans->dcap and roam hard
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On February 24 2015 07:02 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2015 04:57 iCanada wrote:
I think Annie mid right now is pretty strong, but that's mostly just because people forgot about how to deal with her actually having farm and levels.
She can pretty much 100 to 0 anyone without a real dedicated MR defensive item at the 8 to 10 stack RoA+VS timing. Like absolutely deleted, meanwhile the splash damage chunked half their team hard.
Just need those distortion boots and that summoner cd mastery. Takes basically a minute off of flashe cd, you can really catch people off guard when they think there is still like a minute and a half till you can flash Tiber for 2600 damage and AoE stun. i don't like rod on mid annie i use her to counter pick assassins and usually just go double dorans->dcap and roam hard
I like the tankiness, Annie kind of has to be in a teams grill to do her job.
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On February 24 2015 06:39 Slusher wrote:red post confirming they are going to release the veigar changes despite public disapproval sad times
Didn't they do something similar when they pushed through the Sona rework? I mean sure, she was probably overpowered in arams, but on SR she was seeing niche play in competitive games and was always a decent support in solo Q.
I think most of the public disapproval is over the .5 or .75s delay on the stun box more than anything else.
On February 24 2015 07:02 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2015 04:57 iCanada wrote:
I think Annie mid right now is pretty strong, but that's mostly just because people forgot about how to deal with her actually having farm and levels.
She can pretty much 100 to 0 anyone without a real dedicated MR defensive item at the 8 to 10 stack RoA+VS timing. Like absolutely deleted, meanwhile the splash damage chunked half their team hard.
Just need those distortion boots and that summoner cd mastery. Takes basically a minute off of flashe cd, you can really catch people off guard when they think there is still like a minute and a half till you can flash Tiber for 2600 damage and AoE stun. i don't like rod on mid annie i use her to counter pick assassins and usually just go double dorans->dcap and roam hard
It depends upon how you want to play Annie. In mid I think RoA might be a bit too long of a delay for when you want to use her (in the level 6-13 range for Flash Tibbers stuff) but if you want to play for a mid/late game then RoA is just fine.
I understand the logic behind RoA on Annie, as most support Annie's get Righteous Glory for tankiness and the increased move speed so they can dash in while Flash is down, or use it to get in position for the Flash Tibbers, get their spells off and kite back before getting blown up.
RoA on an Annie top however works just fine simply because of how most games in solo Q you see little to no interaction until the 13-20 minute mark when people want to get that last outer turret down.
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On February 24 2015 07:16 Kinie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2015 06:39 Slusher wrote:red post confirming they are going to release the veigar changes despite public disapproval sad times Didn't they do something similar when they pushed through the Sona rework? I mean sure, she was probably overpowered in arams, but on SR she was seeing niche play in competitive games and was always a decent support in solo Q. I think most of the public disapproval is over the .5 or .75s delay on the stun box more than anything else.
While that may be true, I think a lot of people are underestimating a 150 range (IIRC) increase.
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With the range increase you can potentially "trap" them inside... until any and every dash goes through it (and the stun is even reduced because it counts from the moment you hit the wall, not the moment you end your dash). Oh and blinks avoid it altogether.
It'll blow flash the way J4's ult does, but you'll have to hit it twice to get a kill while one would have been enough (and it was easier to hit) with the current version.
I can't wrap my head around this game.
More specifically, how Olaf with Tabi, FH, and ~2800+ HP (before the warmogs) can die in under 10 seconds to Cait who only had IE/PD and pieces of BT, and GP with Triforce/IE/Shiv/BT. That's 300+ armour and they didn't have a single LW (Zed had one around 36 minutes but he never targeted me obviously).
WTB a real death recap because wat. @_@
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Them crits too gud.
Also Olaf R removes a large amount of armor while he is in big fuck you I'm un-affected by cc mode.
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Doesn't Olaf's ult make him lose 30 Armor and MR once it's max rank, not to mention that if the GP Shiv crits that's like 300 magic damage he's eating right up front.
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No, it's only 250 if he crits with IE, so it get reduced to something around 100-150 depending if I ult or not.
He did get way above 50% crits when he 1v1'd me, but still.
I prob should have bought thornmail over warmogs as last item though. 400+ armour while they had no MR, I'm pretty sure they'd have dealt more damage to themselves than to me (thornmail is 30% of their potential damage before my own reductions, right? And since they had basically no MR... ). Still to their advantage once they had BT though. The issue was GP's passive plus Rek'Sai's slow/knock-up spam once my ult wore off.
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Personally I'd have gone Thornmail over Righteous Glory, though I know why you built it on Olaf. I find that in general once an ADC gets BT Thornmail loses it's effectiveness as they basically life steal back the damage you deal with thornmail, and if they run BotRK + BT it's basically you spending 2300 gold to get +100 armor so you can try to just take no damage when they shoot you.
The Warmog's was fine, but I could see getting Thornmail over it. I'm guessing you'd have been around 2600 HP with 390 Armor if you went it over the Warmog's.
Also, someone can correct me on this but BotRK's effectiveness over BT (when BotRK does more damage than BT) in terms of damage to tanks is something like 3200 HP, right, assuming the tank has the same armor value vs. both items?
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On February 24 2015 09:31 Kinie wrote:
Personally I'd have gone Thornmail over Righteous Glory, though I know why you built it on Olaf. I find that in general once an ADC gets BT Thornmail loses it's effectiveness as they basically life steal back the damage you deal with thornmail, and if they run BotRK + BT it's basically you spending 2300 gold to get +100 armor so you can try to just take no damage when they shoot you.
The Warmog's was fine, but I could see getting Thornmail over it. I'm guessing you'd have been around 2600 HP with 390 Armor if you went it over the Warmog's.
Also, someone can correct me on this but BotRK's effectiveness over BT (when BotRK does more damage than BT) in terms of damage to tanks is something like 3200 HP, right, assuming the tank has the same armor value vs. both items?
Just poiting out that preventing lifesteal is a good use of thornmail. Otherwise they'd vamp off you and that'd be bad. I agree with everything else though.
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EPT
